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How would a revolt in the modern United States go down?

124

Posts

  • Erich ZahnErich Zahn So Wangtta~! Remember to [E]ject!Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    spool32 wrote:
    I love these polls. When they aren't comical in the misleading language, they're entirely misread by Democrats. The message here isn't that Republicans support Democratic ideas, but that tons of people don't trust your party even when they agree with the shit you claim to support.

    No, they demonstrate that sadly, fearmongering works.

    And that "Republicans" think that the Democrats are "our party".

    Erich Zahn on
  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    zepherin wrote:
    Marauder wrote:
    I supported OIF once upon a time, but even I'm not naive enough to think the U.S. military didn't learn anything about subjugating an entire country from it. Everyone warblegarbles about all the U.S. casualties, but they pale in comparison to the Iraqi deaths, and also forget that outside of a non-sustained Guerrilla element, we have largely occupied, devastated, subjugated, and reformed a populace of 30 Million people, and did so while restraining ourselves from making war on the general populace of the nation....Dont think that could be scaled up 10 times, especially if the gloves came off as the media is silenced/bought as a first step of subjugation? Think again.
    And this is what I mean, the military would decide any civil conflict within the US, because the citizens simply lack the force of arms to stand up to the military. A bunch of rednecks with guns don't mean jack shit against a sustained carpet bombing followed by having all the means of production seized.

    And again, that's if the rednecks with guns aren't the people who are actually supporting the government.

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Modern Man wrote:
    zepherin wrote:
    I imagine the military would attempt a coup. Turn the US into a junta, or try to anyways.
    This is actually a fear I have, because if our military moved unilaterally, we as a society are powerless to stop them.
    This is not a realistic fear. The US military has an incredibly strong culture of respecting civilian control. Trying to get a majority of the military onboard with the idea of overthrowing the civilian government would be next to impossible.
    Um...The Army War College published a scholarly article on exactly how an American military coup could happen.

    AngelHedgie on
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  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User, ClubPA regular
    So given that these FEMA camp things exist, in the event they started grabbing people from their homes and filling them, would that start a revolt? Or would they be able to suppress enough people with the camps quickly enough to prevent one?

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  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    SniperGuy wrote:
    So given that these FEMA camp things exist, in the event they started grabbing people from their homes and filling them, would that start a revolt? Or would they be able to suppress enough people with the camps quickly enough to prevent one?

    Consider the amount Fox News throws the term "UnAmerican" around in regards to people who support things like due process, fair trials, rights for minorities etc.

  • override367override367 misogynist/MRA/socially irresponsible Registered User regular
    SniperGuy wrote:
    So given that these FEMA camp things exist, in the event they started grabbing people from their homes and filling them, would that start a revolt? Or would they be able to suppress enough people with the camps quickly enough to prevent one?

    The government does not possess the capability to put a significant portion of the populace in camps. They had a very hard time corralling people during Katrina, and the vast majority of them were voluntarily going along with everything

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  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User, ClubPA regular
    SniperGuy wrote:
    So given that these FEMA camp things exist, in the event they started grabbing people from their homes and filling them, would that start a revolt? Or would they be able to suppress enough people with the camps quickly enough to prevent one?

    The government does not possess the capability to put a significant portion of the populace in camps. They had a very hard time corralling people during Katrina, and the vast majority of them were voluntarily going along with everything

    Yeah but that was disaster emergency. This is something that has been planned and setup. If they planned and worked for a year or two, you don't think the military could pull that off? Assuming the military agreed to do it?

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  • override367override367 misogynist/MRA/socially irresponsible Registered User regular
    Who's "They"? Who is planning and preparing for it?

    Because whoever it is, their political opponents will fucking tear them apart

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  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Who's "They"? Who is planning and preparing for it?

    Because whoever it is, their political opponents will fucking tear them apart

    Whoever it is that is currently setting up these camps that the media hasn't reported on at all.

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  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Wasn't this FEMA camp stuff a bunch of bullshit Glenn Beck stirred up?

    I'm of the opinion that a lot would have to change in this country for revolt to even be a remote possibility. Civil unrest like the Civil Rights protests or Occupy or the Rodney King Riots? That happens all the time. Full on revolution? That's just a fantasy.

    The government would have to become much more corrupt for this to be tenable. We have an elected government that, as much as people say, needs public opinion. There's no reason for sedition in the West. Things would have to be 1930s Germany pretty much everywhere for that to happen.

    AManFromEarth on
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  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Wasn't this FEMA camp stuff a bunch of bullshit Glenn Beck stirred up?

    I hope so, but I can't find a reputable source.

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  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    SniperGuy wrote:
    Wasn't this FEMA camp stuff a bunch of bullshit Glenn Beck stirred up?

    I hope so, but I can't find a reputable source.

    Do you have a reputable source that they exist? Because I'm pretty sure the FEMA camps were debunked back when he was ranting about them. I think he connected them to Obamacare somehow or something?

    Lh96QHG.png
  • The_TuninatorThe_Tuninator Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    SniperGuy wrote:

    Yeah but that was disaster emergency. This is something that has been planned and setup. If they planned and worked for a year or two, you don't think the military could pull that off? Assuming the military agreed to do it?

    The military could do it, yes, provided they were somehow induced to cooperate and deployed serious force en masse; they could not throw a significant minority of the population in camps in secret, and the resultant uproar would likely be immense.

    All it takes is a single tweeted picture or lone video uploaded to Youtube to set something big in motion nowadays, and with the proliferation of smartphones and laptops it's easier than ever.

    The_Tuninator on
  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User, ClubPA regular
    SniperGuy wrote:
    Wasn't this FEMA camp stuff a bunch of bullshit Glenn Beck stirred up?

    I hope so, but I can't find a reputable source.

    Do you have a reputable source that they exist? Because I'm pretty sure the FEMA camps were debunked back when he was ranting about them. I think he connected them to Obamacare somehow or something?

    http://www.kbr.com/Newsroom/Press-Releases/2006/01/24/KBR-Awarded-US-Department-of-Homeland-Security-Contingency-Support-Project-for-Emergency-Support-Services/
    The contract, which is effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to augment existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations (DRO) Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs. The contingency support contract provides for planning and, if required, initiation of specific engineering, construction and logistics support tasks to establish, operate and maintain one or more expansion facilities.
    The contract may also provide migrant detention support to other U.S. Government organizations in the event of an immigration emergency, as well as the development of a plan to react to a national emergency, such as a natural disaster. In the event of a natural disaster, the contractor could be tasked with providing housing for ICE personnel performing law enforcement functions in support of relief efforts.

    That's from KBR, the Haliburton subsidiary that got the contract of 385 million to...do that stuff that ended up as these "camps." I hadn't realized they were Glenn Beck associated, the previous info I had seen suggested they were more legitimate. This is a fairly legit link showing that in fact they were awarded a contract that could have resulted in these camp things.

    Let me make it clear that I am not suggesting the US is secretly trying to throw us all in death camps. I'm not a conspiracy nut. I just find this very curious and want more info proving or disproving, as well as discussing the hypothetical worst case "they do exist and are evil" scenario. I seriously doubt anyone would be able to easily throw everyone in the US in a camp. Other articles I've seen claim that the camps are currently "activating" and looking for staff to man them. The contract here is a 5 year in 2006, so the timing would be accurate I suppose.

    So I dunno! But it's certainly intriguing.

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  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    SniperGuy wrote:
    SniperGuy wrote:
    Wasn't this FEMA camp stuff a bunch of bullshit Glenn Beck stirred up?

    I hope so, but I can't find a reputable source.

    Do you have a reputable source that they exist? Because I'm pretty sure the FEMA camps were debunked back when he was ranting about them. I think he connected them to Obamacare somehow or something?

    http://www.kbr.com/Newsroom/Press-Releases/2006/01/24/KBR-Awarded-US-Department-of-Homeland-Security-Contingency-Support-Project-for-Emergency-Support-Services/
    The contract, which is effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to augment existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations (DRO) Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs. The contingency support contract provides for planning and, if required, initiation of specific engineering, construction and logistics support tasks to establish, operate and maintain one or more expansion facilities.
    The contract may also provide migrant detention support to other U.S. Government organizations in the event of an immigration emergency, as well as the development of a plan to react to a national emergency, such as a natural disaster. In the event of a natural disaster, the contractor could be tasked with providing housing for ICE personnel performing law enforcement functions in support of relief efforts.

    That's from KBR, the Haliburton subsidiary that got the contract of 385 million to...do that stuff that ended up as these "camps." I hadn't realized they were Glenn Beck associated, the previous info I had seen suggested they were more legitimate. This is a fairly legit link showing that in fact they were awarded a contract that could have resulted in these camp things.

    Let me make it clear that I am not suggesting the US is secretly trying to throw us all in death camps. I'm not a conspiracy nut. I just find this very curious and want more info proving or disproving, as well as discussing the hypothetical worst case "they do exist and are evil" scenario. I seriously doubt anyone would be able to easily throw everyone in the US in a camp. Other articles I've seen claim that the camps are currently "activating" and looking for staff to man them. The contract here is a 5 year in 2006, so the timing would be accurate I suppose.

    So I dunno! But it's certainly intriguing.

    I think those are just for emergencies and stuff, like it says on the tin.

    I don't think that things could really get bad enough in this country where it would get to the point that people need to revolt. We all have 24 hour access to the internet from our phones and no one's going to be able to take that away from us without a fight. Hell, we have an entire industry based on freedom of speech rights (ACLU and others).

    That's not to say we shouldn't get complacent, after all the price of democracy is vigilance. But it's hard for me to picture a world where the US would get down to that level that hasn't fallen into some kind of apocalypse.

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  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Well to play devil's advocate, the NDAA 1031 thing is only for terrorists too. "Emergencies" could include "declaration of martial law." But yeah, it seems like it may just be a natural disaster recovery center kind of thing. But feel free to consider them in the revolt scenario anyway.

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  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Well there are a lot of things that could be abused by the government in this scenario. Even before NDAA 1031 and FEMA camps and the Patriot Act there are ways to abuse power (Lincoln did--rightly so, I would say--suspend Habeas Corpus in Maryland during the civil war). If a fascist government somehow got in power here I think it would be only natural for the people to fight back. We're an independent bunch and it's in our constitution to do so.

    Hell the Armed Forces are sworn to defend our way of life from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

    Short of the Apocalypse De Jure of the Moment (bird flu, oil, climate change, zombies, WW3 that goes badly for us, Great Depression 2.0 Now with Militantism!, President Herman Cain) I'm not sure how we'd get that far down the road before stopping it.

    It would surely devolve into a civil war and the military would be the deciding factor. I don't care how many guns you have, you're not going to be able to beat an Abrahms.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • CantelopeCantelope Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Well there are a lot of things that could be abused by the government in this scenario. Even before NDAA 1031 and FEMA camps and the Patriot Act there are ways to abuse power (Lincoln did--rightly so, I would say--suspend Habeas Corpus in Maryland during the civil war). If a fascist government somehow got in power here I think it would be only natural for the people to fight back. We're an independent bunch and it's in our constitution to do so.

    Hell the Armed Forces are sworn to defend our way of life from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

    Short of the Apocalypse De Jure of the Moment (bird flu, oil, climate change, zombies, WW3 that goes badly for us, Great Depression 2.0 Now with Militantism!, President Herman Cain) I'm not sure how we'd get that far down the road before stopping it.

    It would surely devolve into a civil war and the military would be the deciding factor. I don't care how many guns you have, you're not going to be able to beat an Abrahms.

    Abrams need all kinds of servicing to be effective. You can't exactly drive an Abrams into most buildings without seriously devaluing them.


    Think about this for a moment, there are thousands, if not tens of thousands of important government and military officials. they all have friends, family, neighbors, sisters, and brothers. Any one of which could easily be kidnapped by an opposing faction in the case of a real revolution or civil war. There are limits to who you can protect, and these limits become a huge problem in the case of a war in your own country.


    If it happens it's there's going to be blood. It will come down to a lot more than rednecks in the woods. Battles will be fought in streets, buildings, and apartment complexes where tanks don't mean a lot. Anyone wearing an official uniform will likely be the victim of sniper attacks in cities and suburbs from opposing factions. This will cause people to stop wearing uniforms, there won't be any identifiable police, just people with guns, giving rise to secret police and militia forces that do whatever they want and answer to no one.


    If we reach the point that there really is a revolution, there won't be any going back to the way things were. It will be the fall of our civilization.

    Cantelope on
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Cantelope wrote:
    Well there are a lot of things that could be abused by the government in this scenario. Even before NDAA 1031 and FEMA camps and the Patriot Act there are ways to abuse power (Lincoln did--rightly so, I would say--suspend Habeas Corpus in Maryland during the civil war). If a fascist government somehow got in power here I think it would be only natural for the people to fight back. We're an independent bunch and it's in our constitution to do so.

    Hell the Armed Forces are sworn to defend our way of life from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

    Short of the Apocalypse De Jure of the Moment (bird flu, oil, climate change, zombies, WW3 that goes badly for us, Great Depression 2.0 Now with Militantism!, President Herman Cain) I'm not sure how we'd get that far down the road before stopping it.

    It would surely devolve into a civil war and the military would be the deciding factor. I don't care how many guns you have, you're not going to be able to beat an Abrahms.

    Abrams need all kinds of servicing to be effective. You can't exactly drive an Abrams into most buildings without seriously devaluing them.


    Think about this for a moment, there are thousands, if not tens of thousands of important government and military officials. they all have friends, family, neighbors, sisters, and brothers. Any one of which could easily be kidnapped by an opposing faction in the case of a real revolution or civil war. There are limits to who you can protect, and these limits become a huge problem in the case of a war in your own country.


    If it happens it's there's going to be blood. It will come down to a lot more than rednecks in the woods. Battles will be fought in streets, buildings, and apartment complexes where tanks don't mean a lot. Anyone wearing an official uniform will likely be the victim of sniper attacks in cities and suburbs from opposing factions. This will cause people to stop wearing uniforms, there won't be any identifiable police, just people with guns, giving rise to secret police and militia forces that do whatever they want and answer to no one.


    If we reach the point that there really is a revolution, there won't be any going back to the way things were. It will be the fall of our civilization.

    I think it would be a result of the fall of our civilization. For us to get to that point would need seismic shifts in the global political and social climate. There'd be a split between military units who won't follow orders to attack American citizens, people who get branded as terrorists. It'd be a horrifying time to be alive. If there's ever a second American Civil War, it won't be as clean as the last one, that's for sure.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • Ragnar DragonfyreRagnar Dragonfyre Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    SniperGuy wrote:
    Well to play devil's advocate, the NDAA 1031 thing is only for terrorists too. "Emergencies" could include "declaration of martial law." But yeah, it seems like it may just be a natural disaster recovery center kind of thing. But feel free to consider them in the revolt scenario anyway.

    The scary thing is the defintion of "terrorist" can be quite vague.

    Stealing? Try consumer terrorism.

    Beat your wife? Domestic terrorism.

    Forward a work related email to wikileaks? Corporate terrorism!

    Enough with my sensationalism (I hope I'm never right about the above)

    Dunno if this has been posted yet...
    A bill passed late last night (93-7 votes) that declares the entire United States of America a battleground. What this means is that the U.S. Military can now operate with impunity, and grant the U.S. Military the unchecked power to arrest, detain, interrogate, and even assassinate United States citizens with impunity.

    What this means is the United States is basically declaring war with itself. We need to shed light on this and make sure it does not become a law, otherwise we should just say good bye to the Bill of Rights and everything America used to stand for.

    Here is the link to the bill in question.

    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112s1867pcs/pdf/BILLS-112s1867pcs.pdf

    I don't care how you spin it, that is scary, scary stuff.

    Ragnar Dragonfyre on
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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Just how often are revolutions successful and result in a better society for the revolutionaries?

    The only two that come to mind are ours and the Indian Independence movement.

    More often then not they seem to result in death and squalor even if they're successful.

    sig.jpg
  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Harrisonburg, VARegistered User regular
  • Ragnar DragonfyreRagnar Dragonfyre Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    For the fifth time, that's not what that bill does.
    Page 380:

    11 ‘‘(2) POWERS.—Subject to subsection (h) and
    12 to the extent specifically authorized by the Sec
    13 retary, while engaged in the performance of official
    14 duties pursuant to this section, an officer or agent
    15 designated under this subsection may—
    16 ‘‘(A) enforce Federal laws and regulations
    17 for the protection of persons and property;
    18 ‘‘(B) carry firearms;
    19 ‘‘(C) make arrests—
    20 ‘‘(i) without a warrant for any offense
    21 against the United States committed in the
    22 presence of the officer or agent; or
    23 ‘‘(ii) for any felony cognizable under
    24 the laws of the United States if the officer
    25 or agent has reasonable grounds to believe
    1 that the person to be arrested has com
    mitted or is committing a felony;

    If it isn't giving law enforcement the ability to arrest citizens without a warrant what praytell does it do? The language makes it sound like it's very deliberately intended to be used by law enforcement in protest/riot situations.

    All the officer has to say is "Yeah, I saw him do it." and according to the language on the bill you, as Joe Citizen, is proper fucked.

    Ragnar Dragonfyre on
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  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    If it isn't giving law enforcement the ability to arrest citizens without a warrant what praytell does it do? The language makes it sound like it's very deliberately intended to be used by law enforcement in protest/riot situations.

    All the officer has to say is "Yeah, I saw him do it." and according to the language on the bill you, as Joe Citizen, is proper fucked.
    That's the case now and always has been. If a cop sees you breaking the law, he can arrest you. He doesn't need a warrant in that circumstance.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
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  • The NotThe Not Registered User regular
    I swear every time the election season draws near, you start hearing about camps to hold the citizens, usually followed shortly thereafter by claims that the President (whoever it is) will declare martial law because of a created emergency.

    There's no camps. There weren't any when Clinton was in charge, there weren't any when Bush was in charge, and there's not now. The off-topic Republician vs. Democrat football game goosery farked up an interesting thread.

  • Zombie NirvanaZombie Nirvana Registered User regular
    The ICE detention center expansion is probably more in preparation of a border exodus in Mexico (even at a low level) in order to grab quick funding to support the facility. Or to establish precedent for the feds to take over in a situation like Katrina. They were very hesitant to do so previously. Those failures had more to do with Louisiana than the federal government.

    But if you've ever worked with the Louisiana government, this would be obvious. They are a backwards sort of folk who smell of corn dogs.

  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    Is there general consensus that there is going to be an influx of Mexicans?

  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Harrisonburg, VARegistered User regular
    For the fifth time, that's not what that bill does.
    Page 380:

    11 ‘‘(2) POWERS.—Subject to subsection (h) and
    12 to the extent specifically authorized by the Sec
    13 retary, while engaged in the performance of official
    14 duties pursuant to this section, an officer or agent
    15 designated under this subsection may—
    16 ‘‘(A) enforce Federal laws and regulations
    17 for the protection of persons and property;
    18 ‘‘(B) carry firearms;
    19 ‘‘(C) make arrests—
    20 ‘‘(i) without a warrant for any offense
    21 against the United States committed in the
    22 presence of the officer or agent; or
    23 ‘‘(ii) for any felony cognizable under
    24 the laws of the United States if the officer
    25 or agent has reasonable grounds to believe
    1 that the person to be arrested has com
    mitted or is committing a felony;

    If it isn't giving law enforcement the ability to arrest citizens without a warrant what praytell does it do? The language makes it sound like it's very deliberately intended to be used by law enforcement in protest/riot situations.

    All the officer has to say is "Yeah, I saw him do it." and according to the language on the bill you, as Joe Citizen, is proper fucked.
    For one thing, that's completely devoid of context. For another, police can already arrest you in those situations.

  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    As far as I can tell, Mexicans are going back. Better job prospects.

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    FEMA camps... Alex Jones has been going on about FEMA camps since the Branch Davidian massacre. If Alex Jones is associated with your idea, it is officially pants-on-head crazy.

  • Zombie NirvanaZombie Nirvana Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    We have pretty severe issues with violence in our southern drilling areas due to immigrants right now. We don't send out our operators alone at night anymore. I don't know if the people coming over are a different demographic now or if they are just too scared to return to Mexico. Most likely the latter.

    I also didn't mean to imply that there will be a rush of Mexican immigrants, but that the United States government is doing their due diligence in preparing for an all out drug war. Should it continue to get worse, you might actually have a refugee situation at some point.

    Zombie Nirvana on
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    We already have a smallish issue with that here in Texas - there's a quiet industry building up around providing anonymous services for Mexican nationals hiding in the US from the cartels, for one reason or another.

  • Zombie NirvanaZombie Nirvana Registered User regular
    I am in Houston ;)

    My area is Eagle Ford and my counterpart manages our South Texas assets (Laredo, Aguilares, Zapata, etc...)

  • The_TuninatorThe_Tuninator Registered User regular

    If it isn't giving law enforcement the ability to arrest citizens without a warrant what praytell does it do? The language makes it sound like it's very deliberately intended to be used by law enforcement in protest/riot situations.

    All the officer has to say is "Yeah, I saw him do it." and according to the language on the bill you, as Joe Citizen, is proper fucked.

    Others have already addressed this, but I feel like replying as well; Cops can already do this. A cop sees you performing what looks to him like a hit-and-run? Into cuffs you go. A cop sees you assaulting someone? Into cuffs you go. A cop sees you in what he perceives to be a drug deal? Into cuffs you go.

    That's not to say that I don't think we should examine this bill carefully, but you're barking up the wrong tree here.

  • Erich ZahnErich Zahn So Wangtta~! Remember to [E]ject!Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    The Not wrote:
    I swear every time the election season draws near, you start hearing about camps to hold the citizens, usually followed shortly thereafter by claims that the President (whoever it is) will declare martial law because of a created emergency.

    There's no camps. There weren't any when Clinton was in charge, there weren't any when Bush was in charge, and there's not now. The off-topic Republician vs. Democrat football game goosery farked up an interesting thread.

    Much like it fucked up America, and will fuck up LE REVOLUCION!

    People have cordoned off segments of reality, and if somebody mentions [issue], it triggers an entirely irrational rejection response which prevents people from getting shit done.

    Erich Zahn on
  • Anarchy Rules!Anarchy Rules! Registered User regular
    Just how often are revolutions successful and result in a better society for the revolutionaries?

    The only two that come to mind are ours and the Indian Independence movement.

    More often then not they seem to result in death and squalor even if they're successful.

    Why does everyone on these sorts of threads always assume revolutions are unsuccessful or result in massive loss of life/undue prolonged suffering?

    There have been many, almost entirely peaceful revolutions throughout history. Surely you're aware of the fall of the Soviet Union right? The Glorious revolution here in the UK saw the ending of absolute monarchy and the passing of the bill of rights.



  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Just how often are revolutions successful and result in a better society for the revolutionaries?

    The only two that come to mind are ours and the Indian Independence movement.

    More often then not they seem to result in death and squalor even if they're successful.

    Why does everyone on these sorts of threads always assume revolutions are unsuccessful or result in massive loss of life/undue prolonged suffering?

    There have been many, almost entirely peaceful revolutions throughout history. Surely you're aware of the fall of the Soviet Union right? The Glorious revolution here in the UK saw the ending of absolute monarchy and the passing of the bill of rights.



    Because most revolutions are bloody, unsuccessful, and usually leave the people who were rebelling worse off than before. Peaceful and/or successful revolutions are hardly the rule.

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  • The_TuninatorThe_Tuninator Registered User regular
    There have been many peaceful and entirely successful revolutions through history, this is true; there have been far, far more bloody and unsuccessful ones.

    Still, as horrible as they can be, they are an essential part of politics.

  • Fallout2manFallout2man Registered User regular
    So an American Revolt? How would it happen today? Well dusting off my much-loved speculation cap:

    It'd start out with an economic collapse. The Eurozone breaks up and the American banking sector takes such a big hit that we see another possible stock market panic on our hands. In a move reminiscent of 2008 a bailout of some kind is passed immediately to stop a bank run. But the resulting action leads to massive public protests and general strikes dwarfing all existing occupy activity today.

    Because of the huge cost of the bailout the American taxpayer will have effectively "saved Europe" and yet gotten nothing out of the transaction, which basically just existed to ensure that wealthy investors did not lose money on Europe. This normally would've led to mass rioting when it was finally revealed to the people via the MSM but instead thanks to Occupy the movement gives all of the budding popular anger a nonviolent way to channel itself.

    What follows are general strikes and far greater mass peaceful actions. Scared of losing control of the situation the intelligence agencies (likely the FBI) create a domestic terror incident by using media incendiary to get just enough right wing extremists riled up to go bomb protest sites. (And the FBI ready to provide them with explosives to do it)

    My one or two actually go off, but the supposed "majority" are never detonated. The Government uses the incident as an excuse to declare martial law. (Since there are so many protests against the economy, and heaven help us, someone might want to bomb them! So we'd better just stop those protests without ever fixing the economy!)

    But at this point because the actions were taken so fast and so boldly ranks begin to finally break within especially when word slips that orders were given to certain branches to conduct "Roundups" of specific non government individuals during said martial law belonging to individuals who are obviously on record as being critics of the current socioeconomic paradigm and not in any way related to violent extremism.

    The schism happens fast and hard, in an effort to minimize losses the government seizes control of the media through FEMA and the Emergency broadcast signal, then begins to broadcast what now to most people is recognizable as blatant propaganda to hide its hand while the military quickly splits into factions with the special forces groups taking the lead first in training an American counter-insurgency (I heard supposedly special forces enlisted sergeants are required to train and maintain a worst-case scenario plan of the government going rogue.)

    The military deploys clandestine operatives domestically to destroy most of the civilian communications and all but its higher level military communications infrastructure to prevent organizational advantage both for opposing military operations and in preserving as much of their psychological advantage of reaching millions via propaganda campaigns. It blames the loss of communications on "terrorist activities" it blames on the members of the armed service that have now left. How fast this happens would depend on how fast they needed to prevent civilians communicating "dangerous ideas" and it could happen over months, days or perhaps even hours. But it would reveal itself as a progressive narrowing of our ability to communicate electronically over distance by anyone other than government/military officials.

    Before the communications network goes down the feds will have figured out who in state/local levels they can count on for support and they'll make use of that to maximum effect. The boldest lie possible will be cooked up and distributed through whatever channels of Federalism remain to try and quell local populations into compliance while the military goes on domestic adventures against the now "Terrorists!" who have apparently destroyed our communications infrastructure (When something so wide reaching could only obviously be done by government itself) and are apparently so evil they'll drag us down to hell of we don't give Uncle Sam impunity to do what he will with them.

    Of course, because this happens so fast people see that it's a bald faced lie and that's where strategic control of the food supply will come in. All assets which provide basic necessity will be seized or controlled in some form to act as a motivator for communities to remain compliant. There'll probably be a progagandized excuse but it will boil down to cities, counties or possibly even "States" being "Rationed" resources in accordance with their level of compliance and with the non compliant communities being starved into compliance.

    Control would be done primarily via starvation and denying the ability to travel elsewhere, this means that people in some areas would have the choice of "Comply with Federal Army, or everyone here will slowly starve to death." The government however will ultimately fail because its primary tool of control will require both a large amount of fully cooperating communities and/or high levels of port control to ensure it can get food it needs while the people inside do not get the food they need.

    On Ignorance:
    Kana wrote:
    If the best you can come up with against someone who's patently ignorant is to yell back at him, "Yeah? Well there's BOOKS, and they say you're WRONG!"

    Then honestly you're not coming out of this looking great either.
  • override367override367 misogynist/MRA/socially irresponsible Registered User regular
    Okay so your scenario requires the government to commit acts of terrorism against the populace

    I guess... I guess that'd do it?

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