If the game is not capable of making me understand how I did it wrong, it's not worth my money.
Pretty sure the lifebar draining and you dying is a good tip.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited January 2012
Meh, it's not such a huge deal, you just learn to play more carefully.
Which seems wrong, considering the subject matter.
It is kind of annoying, though. There's several spots throughout the game where staying in cover and picking off the enemy snipers/grenadiers/whatever is the best tactic. I thought this game wasn't supposed to be about that sort of shit? All the PR was all "hey charge in there and fuck shit up" but then you play the game and it's all like "nope, if you charge in there you die".
If the game is not capable of making me understand how I did it wrong, it's not worth my money.
This reminds me of the Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 demo that gave you an overpowered Ryu to play with. There's a fear that if the game has the nerve to kill the player, they'll just chuck the controller and not purchase the game.
If the game is not capable of making me understand how I did it wrong, it's not worth my money.
Pretty sure the lifebar draining and you dying is a good tip.
Yeah, it tells me that I'm playing as a Guardsman with bulky armor.
The problem is, like Reverse mentions, everything up to the game's release made the game sound like something it wasn't. If you were following the game up to release you were left with a demo that makes the game sound like a rental, while if you weren't following the game....why would you even touch such an obvious Gears ripoff?
Lemme see if I understand this. The game is a shooter, and in order to regenerate health, you have to run into melee and perform an execution, and during this animation you are not granted any form of mercy invincibility. Right?
That sounds like an utterly retarded mechanic. For as long as the enemy count on the battlefield is greater than one, I am never never never going to run in to do it, because why the fuck would I run in to heal if I'm just going to get shot and lose more health?
At least tell me that when you do this you get all your health back or something like that. That's the only way this even remotely makes sense.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited January 2012
Yes, you get all your health back*. Also, it's a fairly melee oriented game.
*Actually, now that I think about, I think it depends on how tough the enemy is.
Lemme see if I understand this. The game is a shooter, and in order to regenerate health, you have to run into melee and perform an execution, and during this animation you are not granted any form of mercy invincibility. Right?
That sounds like an utterly retarded mechanic. For as long as the enemy count on the battlefield is greater than one, I am never never never going to run in to do it, because why the fuck would I run in to heal if I'm just going to get shot and lose more health?
At least tell me that when you do this you get all your health back or something like that. That's the only way this even remotely makes sense.
Eh, it worked pretty well in practice. It's not really a 'shooter' in the sense of other third person games. The mechanics were all pretty well thought out, but I would agree it didn't really explain itself as well as games are expected to nowadays.
Also probably shouldn't try to judge the mechanics of a game you've never played.
Lemme see if I understand this. The game is a shooter, and in order to regenerate health, you have to run into melee and perform an execution, and during this animation you are not granted any form of mercy invincibility. Right?
That sounds like an utterly retarded mechanic. For as long as the enemy count on the battlefield is greater than one, I am never never never going to run in to do it, because why the fuck would I run in to heal if I'm just going to get shot and lose more health?
At least tell me that when you do this you get all your health back or something like that. That's the only way this even remotely makes sense.
You do get quite a bit of health back. I dunno what you get back on easy/normal. I played the entire game on hard and didn't have too much of an issue with it .
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited January 2012
Yeah. Honestly. You can play that way for a good 70% of the game.
Towards the end though when enemies get tougher and start spamming explosives you usually end up having to pick those guys off first before you can get to the smashing. It isn't too much of a hindrance but I honestly thought the gunplay was pretty weak in the game with a few exceptions.
That being said...difficulty was one of my smallest problems with the game. I could get into them but that would take up more thread space than I already have and I don't know if I really care too anyway.
Anyone who hasn't played Space Marine can stop speculating and use OnLive to play a 30minute trial of the full game pretty quickly.
I only discovered OnLive a month or so ago and it seems pretty bloody amazing. If I had to travel a lot with a laptop I would subscribe to it in a heartbeat. Shame their game list is a little thin.
If the game is not capable of making me understand how I did it wrong, it's not worth my money.
This reminds me of the Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 demo that gave you an overpowered Ryu to play with. There's a fear that if the game has the nerve to kill the player, they'll just chuck the controller and not purchase the game.
I think devs are right to fear the consequences of killing the player.
I just recently got the new Mario game on the 3DS and I won't lie that I've died a fair few times. But EVERY time I've died, I know exactly why I died and what I should have done to prevent it. It's because Mario is a fairly simple game: usually it's just misjudging a platform jump or something to the effect that killed me.
With a game like Warhammer, there's a lot more systems in play: there's ranged combat, melee combat, the regeneration system, all the various things the monsters can do, and the fact that they're pushing what is essentially a brand new system into an older type of game (melee focus in a third person shooter). As such, it's a lot harder to gleem what exactly you did wrong when you die. Should I have thinned the herd first? Did I choose an ineffective weapon loadout? Do I have the correct method, but just not the skill to pull it off properly.
With mario, it's pretty obvious I missed the jump, or blew at not getting hit by enemies.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
I don't know. Maybe its just experience.
But as someone who has played a lot of action/fighting games...I picked up on what I was doing wrong pretty quickly in Space Marine.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited January 2012
It did require some experimentation to work it out, yes. I started by reading all the help available in the menu and trying out every ability, then observing.
I enjoy this, as a rule. I don't mind being told, but experience has told me that even if people are actually told via an in game help text what is going on, they wont always remember or note it and will still not understand when they get killed fifteen minutes later. It often doesn't work if a game is complex.
Action games are my most played game type by far. Previous to getting into action games I play fps primarily for quite a few years. I had a lot of ways of approaching both playstyles to fall back on.
I did most of the end game with the hammer, incidentally. I wont say it was easy, but it was possible and really quite fun. I had to use the cover to plan how to get my big hammer over to the enemy skull. Along the way I got to see pretty much every single hammer execution on every enemy in the game. Some of them are marvelous.
I do not recommend it if you do not like difficulty spikes and aren't incredibly stubborn. I was very obviously doing much of the end game "wrong" TM and I admit to it. I just didn't care. I wasn't going to let go of my hammer for anyone or anything.
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(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited January 2012
They can sure, yet I've seen games with incredibly organic, unobtrusive and informative help systems still get people bitching about not knowing how to do x y or z. At some point when you have a complex game you need to trust that the player will want to actually learn it.
I think dmc games have a fairly good system down. You learn quickly that dodging and so on works and you can beat most of the bosses with default combos with a reliable weapon they give you at the start of the game.
I do think Space Marine could have done with a bit more player help in understanding the melee system.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
the problem is they give you a big ass chainsaw sword and cool executions but then you try to do them and you die and die. it's like the game gives you cool things to do but then is like 'no first shoot everyone else first and then you can kill just one dude with the cool weapon'
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited January 2012
I got tired of it quickly for the same reason. But we have pretty biased backgrounds when trying to relate to people who didn't understand it Dragkonias, we both play a lot of action games and we know how to approach that kind of game.
I made a vid to help out people with approaching the combat for the Space Marine thread, so I'll just repost it.
Well, what I mean is some games kind of hide themselves in plain sight. I'm specifically thinking of Dragon Age Origins. Playing the game wasn't that hard, but I struggled constantly throughout trying to figure out what I was doing wrong at every turn. Since then, I've seen all kinds of tips and strategies and such and I can make more sense of what the game wanted from me. But just playing it wasn't enough.
I was totally playing it wrong. The game wasn't necessarily bad, but I wasn't having any fun playing it.
I don't know about how easy or hard Space Marine is. But I do know that some games are clearly more involved than the information they actually give to the players.
Also, it's a fine line between bitching about a game because it isn't as clear as it probably should be and bitching about a game because the player is bad at it. I think in most cases it's usually pretty clear which is which.
I thought it was funny when Tim Shafer had to come out with an article telling everybody who was playing Brutal Legend that they were "playing it wrong".
Of course, that was the point when I deduced that, if the developer himself has to tell you you're playing his game wrong, then the game itself is clearly at fault for not properly teaching you.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
Speaking of teaching game mechanics, there was an awesome one in Mario 3D Land that made me take notice. It was the level where you're introduced to the red/blue platforms that switch every time you jump. The first one you encounter, it's set up that you'll miss it if you don't know what it is and fall into an enclosed pit. As you're running back and jumping out, the platform keeps switching, and by the time you're back up to try again, the platform will be set up so you'll make it. So in that brief moment of failure, they've completely taught you exactly how this mechanic works.
I thought the whole thing was totally fantastic.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Speaking of teaching game mechanics, there was an awesome one in Mario 3D Land that made me take notice. It was the level where you're introduced to the red/blue platforms that switch every time you jump. The first one you encounter, it's set up that you'll miss it if you don't know what it is and fall into an enclosed pit. As you're running back and jumping out, the platform keeps switching, and by the time you're back up to try again, the platform will be set up so you'll make it. So in that brief moment of failure, they've completely taught you exactly how this mechanic works.
I thought the whole thing was totally fantastic.
Pretty snazzy.
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Speaking of teaching game mechanics, there was an awesome one in Mario 3D Land that made me take notice. It was the level where you're introduced to the red/blue platforms that switch every time you jump. The first one you encounter, it's set up that you'll miss it if you don't know what it is and fall into an enclosed pit. As you're running back and jumping out, the platform keeps switching, and by the time you're back up to try again, the platform will be set up so you'll make it. So in that brief moment of failure, they've completely taught you exactly how this mechanic works.
I thought the whole thing was totally fantastic.
I think they've done something similar for pretty much every time you've first encountered those flipping/ switching platforms (though the first ones would only flip when you did a Spin, I think they're thematically similar enough to assume that those "guiding" segments would have been very much alike eachother too to some degree)... I think they first introduced them in Super Mario Galaxy, now I kind of want to go check if I'm right.
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Alright and in this next scene all the animals have AIDS.
It's like the original PSP vs. DS arguments from way back when they first came out. Except 2 of the guy seemed to have learned from the past. Garnett reminds me of the old "PSP WILL CURE CANCER AND TREAT YOUR MOM TO A NICE LOBSTER DINNER. DS WILL IMPREGNATE YOUR LITTLE SISTER AND FORCE HER TO HAVE A BACK ALLEY ABORTION IN MEXICO" crowd.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I was hoping the 3DS and PSVita wouldn't repeat history in any way, but y'know... fate seems to have aligned itself that way.
Nah, I love it all. Makes me feel nostalgic. Feels like it's 2004 all over again.
EDIT: And 2005. And 2006. etc.
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Nintendo Network ID: V-Faction | XBL: V Faction | Steam | 3DS: 3136 - 6603 - 1330 PokemonWhite Friend Code: 0046-2121-0723/White2 Friend Code: 0519-5126-2990
"Did ya hear the one about the mussel that wanted to purchase Valve? Seems like the bivalve had a juicy offer on the table but the company flat-out refused and decided to immediately clam up!"
All this downin' on Games Workshop and 40K is breaking my damn heart. It deserves far better than it gets, with people looking at things like Starcraft and Gears of War and saying "what a ripoff".
1987.
That's when 40K started. Following in the footsteps of regular old Warhammer from 1983. I wish someone would just shower Relic in production budget money, so they could both give the series its due and market the hell out of it.
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Pretty sure the lifebar draining and you dying is a good tip.
Which seems wrong, considering the subject matter.
It is kind of annoying, though. There's several spots throughout the game where staying in cover and picking off the enemy snipers/grenadiers/whatever is the best tactic. I thought this game wasn't supposed to be about that sort of shit? All the PR was all "hey charge in there and fuck shit up" but then you play the game and it's all like "nope, if you charge in there you die".
Seems kind of odd.
I got a little excited when I saw your ship.
This reminds me of the Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 demo that gave you an overpowered Ryu to play with. There's a fear that if the game has the nerve to kill the player, they'll just chuck the controller and not purchase the game.
Yeah, it tells me that I'm playing as a Guardsman with bulky armor.
The problem is, like Reverse mentions, everything up to the game's release made the game sound like something it wasn't. If you were following the game up to release you were left with a demo that makes the game sound like a rental, while if you weren't following the game....why would you even touch such an obvious Gears ripoff?
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That sounds like an utterly retarded mechanic. For as long as the enemy count on the battlefield is greater than one, I am never never never going to run in to do it, because why the fuck would I run in to heal if I'm just going to get shot and lose more health?
At least tell me that when you do this you get all your health back or something like that. That's the only way this even remotely makes sense.
*Actually, now that I think about, I think it depends on how tough the enemy is.
Eh, it worked pretty well in practice. It's not really a 'shooter' in the sense of other third person games. The mechanics were all pretty well thought out, but I would agree it didn't really explain itself as well as games are expected to nowadays.
Also probably shouldn't try to judge the mechanics of a game you've never played.
https://medium.com/@alascii
You do get quite a bit of health back. I dunno what you get back on easy/normal. I played the entire game on hard and didn't have too much of an issue with it
Towards the end though when enemies get tougher and start spamming explosives you usually end up having to pick those guys off first before you can get to the smashing. It isn't too much of a hindrance but I honestly thought the gunplay was pretty weak in the game with a few exceptions.
That being said...difficulty was one of my smallest problems with the game. I could get into them but that would take up more thread space than I already have and I don't know if I really care too anyway.
I only discovered OnLive a month or so ago and it seems pretty bloody amazing. If I had to travel a lot with a laptop I would subscribe to it in a heartbeat. Shame their game list is a little thin.
I got a little excited when I saw your ship.
I think devs are right to fear the consequences of killing the player.
Personally if your demo kills me early on I get more interested.
I just recently got the new Mario game on the 3DS and I won't lie that I've died a fair few times. But EVERY time I've died, I know exactly why I died and what I should have done to prevent it. It's because Mario is a fairly simple game: usually it's just misjudging a platform jump or something to the effect that killed me.
With a game like Warhammer, there's a lot more systems in play: there's ranged combat, melee combat, the regeneration system, all the various things the monsters can do, and the fact that they're pushing what is essentially a brand new system into an older type of game (melee focus in a third person shooter). As such, it's a lot harder to gleem what exactly you did wrong when you die. Should I have thinned the herd first? Did I choose an ineffective weapon loadout? Do I have the correct method, but just not the skill to pull it off properly.
With mario, it's pretty obvious I missed the jump, or blew at not getting hit by enemies.
But as someone who has played a lot of action/fighting games...I picked up on what I was doing wrong pretty quickly in Space Marine.
I enjoy this, as a rule. I don't mind being told, but experience has told me that even if people are actually told via an in game help text what is going on, they wont always remember or note it and will still not understand when they get killed fifteen minutes later. It often doesn't work if a game is complex.
Action games are my most played game type by far. Previous to getting into action games I play fps primarily for quite a few years. I had a lot of ways of approaching both playstyles to fall back on.
I did most of the end game with the hammer, incidentally. I wont say it was easy, but it was possible and really quite fun. I had to use the cover to plan how to get my big hammer over to the enemy skull. Along the way I got to see pretty much every single hammer execution on every enemy in the game. Some of them are marvelous.
I do not recommend it if you do not like difficulty spikes and aren't incredibly stubborn. I was very obviously doing much of the end game "wrong" TM and I admit to it. I just didn't care. I wasn't going to let go of my hammer for anyone or anything.
I think dmc games have a fairly good system down. You learn quickly that dodging and so on works and you can beat most of the bosses with default combos with a reliable weapon they give you at the start of the game.
I do think Space Marine could have done with a bit more player help in understanding the melee system.
That's the confusing thing.
Like I said...Space Marine...isn't a hard game to understand.
It is pretty basic and that was actually a problem I had with it. It didn't really have many layers to it at all.
I made a vid to help out people with approaching the combat for the Space Marine thread, so I'll just repost it.
I had to struggle with quite low fps here as well. (Under 20 most of the time).
I was totally playing it wrong. The game wasn't necessarily bad, but I wasn't having any fun playing it.
I don't know about how easy or hard Space Marine is. But I do know that some games are clearly more involved than the information they actually give to the players.
Also, it's a fine line between bitching about a game because it isn't as clear as it probably should be and bitching about a game because the player is bad at it. I think in most cases it's usually pretty clear which is which.
Of course, that was the point when I deduced that, if the developer himself has to tell you you're playing his game wrong, then the game itself is clearly at fault for not properly teaching you.
I thought the whole thing was totally fantastic.
Pretty snazzy.
I think they've done something similar for pretty much every time you've first encountered those flipping/ switching platforms (though the first ones would only flip when you did a Spin, I think they're thematically similar enough to assume that those "guiding" segments would have been very much alike eachother too to some degree)... I think they first introduced them in Super Mario Galaxy, now I kind of want to go check if I'm right.
I got a little excited when I saw your ship.
Galaxy 1 will change that.
Then Galaxy 2 will change that again. :P
HERPA DERPA VITA!
...I'd rather not swim through 19 minutes of that so what's so herpa and derpa?
EDIT: And 2005. And 2006. etc.
Pokemon White Friend Code: 0046-2121-0723/White 2 Friend Code: 0519-5126-2990
"Did ya hear the one about the mussel that wanted to purchase Valve? Seems like the bivalve had a juicy offer on the table but the company flat-out refused and decided to immediately clam up!"
I agree. It's been so long since the last console war.
1987.
That's when 40K started. Following in the footsteps of regular old Warhammer from 1983. I wish someone would just shower Relic in production budget money, so they could both give the series its due and market the hell out of it.