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  • NullzoneNullzone Registered User regular
    Man who recommends The Princess Bride and Pan's Labyrinth in the same breath

    Pan's Labyrinth, while having some great qualities as a film, is a terrible movie; it punches you in the gut, takes your lunch money, and runs away with it laughing.

  • KolosusKolosus Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Here is the Youtube video which talks about Mandy Patinkin losing his father and how it motivated his role as Inigo.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9J1vC-4wTs&feature=related

    Kolosus on
  • SnorkSnork word Jamaica Plain, MARegistered User regular
    Nullzone wrote:
    Man who recommends The Princess Bride and Pan's Labyrinth in the same breath

    Pan's Labyrinth, while having some great qualities as a film, is a terrible movie
    i'm pretty sure i agree with what you're saying here, but this sentence doesn't mean anything

  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    i like the book Enchanted better than the movie, which is still good

  • JansonJanson Registered User regular
    You certainly don't watch Pan's Labyrinth for the same reasons you would the Princess Bride!

    Also, there is a book Enchanted? Huh, I thought it was a Disney original.

  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    WAIT NO

    i meant Ella Enchanted

    i love the movie Enchanted and own it as well as the soundtrack

  • NullzoneNullzone Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Snork wrote:
    Nullzone wrote:
    Man who recommends The Princess Bride and Pan's Labyrinth in the same breath

    Pan's Labyrinth, while having some great qualities as a film, is a terrible movie
    i'm pretty sure i agree with what you're saying here, but this sentence doesn't mean anything

    I mean its technical aspects vs story/entertainment value.

    As a film, it makes some interesting decisions in execution that exemplify it as a work of art.

    As a movie, a story to be told, it's an awful, depressing tale of a girl who is in a cruel and abusive household and only manages to find relief in her own death. Ophelia is kind and only looks to help people who are suffering or otherwise ask for her aid, and ultimately is killed for her choices, leaving everyone around her broken while she supposedly somehow wins by becoming princess of the underworld and ruling there with a kind and just heart. But this is delivered only in narrative overtones in the last 5 minutes of the movie, so it feels empty (not to mention the cognitive weight of having to accept that this underworld both exists and is a less-than-terrible place to be, having just learned of its existence only some 10-15 minutes ago).

    There's not even any poetic justice in her death. She simply dies, and the antagonist is otherwise ruined by external forces that are completely unrelated to his actions against Ophelia. The movie takes you on an adventure with this girl, gets you to care about her, and then leaves her for dead with no recourse. And then tries to make it better by saying "But she totally won in the afterlife."

    Nullzone on
  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    edited December 2011
    nullzone, first have you ever read a fairy tale, and second i completely disagree with you that all that information was only delivered in the last five minutes, or 15, when it was pretty clearly explained much earlier when the stakes were first set up in the beginning

    e: and to judge the movie based on a lack of poetic justice is a little silly, given that it's not a requirement that movies have such a thing

    Quoth on
  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    not even addressing whether it is poetic justice or not, by the by, which one could argue that it is

  • darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Wait what? This film does something unconventional, therefore it is a bad?

    darleysam on
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  • JansonJanson Registered User regular
    Agreed with @Quoth

    Also, I have a book of Russian fairy tales, oh man are they ever dark (and way darker than most of the original Grimm's). Totally reading those to my kid.

  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    i mean, the original little mermaid had her walking around feeling like her feet were being cut by knives, and then she dies

    what the hell kind of ending did you want from a movie that blurs the line between fantasy and reality in an extremely dark time in spain's history

  • NullzoneNullzone Registered User regular
    Quoth wrote:
    nullzone, first have you ever read a fairy tale, and second i completely disagree with you that all that information was only delivered in the last five minutes, or 15, when it was pretty clearly explained much earlier when the stakes were first set up in the beginning

    e: and to judge the movie based on a lack of poetic justice is a little silly, given that it's not a requirement that movies have such a thing

    Sure, I know plenty of fairy tales are tragic and use that tragedy to teach a lesson; this had no such lesson, other than a dramatization of Wheaton's Law.

    If you want to call that a lesson, then I guess it succeeds? But since the movie has already set you into the trope of good vs evil there's no clear message that isn't already fundamentally ingrained into the viewer.

  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
  • Indie WinterIndie Winter die Krähe Rudi Hurzlmeier (German, b. 1952)Registered User regular
    oh fuck @Janson

    you made me think of

    the book

    the terrible, horrible book

    that gave me the worst nightmares as a kid
    3_Struwwelpeter.jpg

    wY6K6Jb.gif
  • lostwordslostwords Registered User regular
    For reals, the best and most resonant fairytales have to have a bit of darkness and tragedy just waiting in the corner of your eyes. It's why I love pans labyrinth so.

    Side note on magical realism: My dream movie is Cary fukunaga doing an adaptation of Carlos Luis zafon's shadow of the wind

    rat.jpg tumbler? steam/ps3 thingie: lostwords Amazon Wishlist!
  • NullzoneNullzone Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Quoth wrote:
    why did it have to have a lesson

    Because without one the viewer inevitably feels sucker punched.

    Fairy tales are whimsical and invoke certain emotions for it, and then pull on those emotions with the tragedy of the tale, which either emphasizes the lesson to be had, or provides a vehicle on which to deliver the true conclusion of the story to its viewer.

    You want a good example of a fairy tale movie that still leans on tragedy? Watch Finding Neverland.

    Nullzone on
  • darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    I really want to go and read some proper, dark fairytales. Hell, I'd love to put together some ideas for fairytales for adults, as a kind of collection of bedtime stories.

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  • lostwordslostwords Registered User regular
    Man, I personally liked finding never land but it was coldly calculated to draw out tears and sadness and just felt so cheesy at times, similar to the notebook. It always makes me wary when a movie does that. And yet, I still love it

    rat.jpg tumbler? steam/ps3 thingie: lostwords Amazon Wishlist!
  • NullzoneNullzone Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    lostwords wrote:
    Man, I personally liked finding never land but it was coldly calculated to draw out tears and sadness and just felt so cheesy at times, similar to the notebook. It always makes me wary when a movie does that. And yet, I still love it

    I loved it too, and while it may have a few moments of being like "quick, everybody look sad for the camera!" I think it did a good job of turning the tragedy into something worth thinking about.

    Nullzone on
  • JansonJanson Registered User regular
    lostwords wrote:
    For reals, the best and most resonant fairytales have to have a bit of darkness and tragedy just waiting in the corner of your eyes. It's why I love pans labyrinth so.

    Side note on magical realism: My dream movie is Cary fukunaga doing an adaptation of Carlos Luis zafon's shadow of the wind
    Did you read the sequel (well, prequel) to Shadow of the Wind?

    It wasn't nearly so good but man he writes amazing dialogue.

  • lostwordslostwords Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Janson wrote:
    lostwords wrote:
    For reals, the best and most resonant fairytales have to have a bit of darkness and tragedy just waiting in the corner of your eyes. It's why I love pans labyrinth so.

    Side note on magical realism: My dream movie is Cary fukunaga doing an adaptation of Carlos Luis zafon's shadow of the wind
    Did you read the sequel (well, prequel) to Shadow of the Wind?

    It wasn't nearly so good but man he writes amazing dialogue.

    Yes! I dug it, though like you, not as much as shadow of the wind! Anxiously waiting for te third, prisoner of heaven to be translated!

    Also have you checked out any of John connolly's non-mystery books, starting with book of lost things? Just picked up the internals recently and I loved his first two books of the series! Definitely in the same vein of humor/fantasy/awesomeness

    lostwords on
    rat.jpg tumbler? steam/ps3 thingie: lostwords Amazon Wishlist!
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    Quoth wrote:
    I love his stuff, but I think he's overrated

    it's true that Neil Gaiman is not as good a writer as someone like Michael Chabon or Dan Simmons

    but he does have some considerable gifts for storytelling

  • Indie WinterIndie Winter die Krähe Rudi Hurzlmeier (German, b. 1952)Registered User regular
    Quoth wrote:
    I love his stuff, but I think he's overrated

    it's true that Neil Gaiman is not as good a writer as someone like Michael Chabon

    hey so did I completely nerd out on Gentlemen of the Road yet

    because

    hot dang

    wY6K6Jb.gif
  • WaltWalt Waller Arcane Enchanted Frozen ElectrifiedRegistered User regular
    Finding Neverland loses points for using a Great Pyrenees instead of a Newfoundland dog.

  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    Nullzone wrote:
    Man who recommends The Princess Bride and Pan's Labyrinth in the same breath

    Pan's Labyrinth, while having some great qualities as a film, is a terrible movie; it punches you in the gut, takes your lunch money, and runs away with it laughing.

    This is

    A stupid opinion

  • wanderingwandering Russia state-affiliated media Registered User regular
    So I guess The Dark Knight was inspired by The Killing Joke and Batman '89 was inspired by the The Dark Knight Returns

    So that's two cases where the movie is better than the book

  • NullzoneNullzone Registered User regular
    Nullzone wrote:
    Man who recommends The Princess Bride and Pan's Labyrinth in the same breath

    Pan's Labyrinth, while having some great qualities as a film, is a terrible movie; it punches you in the gut, takes your lunch money, and runs away with it laughing.

    This is

    A stupid opinion

    Honestly, I'd love to hear counterpoints because nobody I've ever talked to about this has ever been able to point out what made the movie good. They could only shrug their shoulders and say they liked it.

    That's fine, plenty of diverse opinions out there, but I'd really like to be able to get inside the head of someone who enjoyed it so I could understand what the fuck.

  • ChicoBlueChicoBlue Registered User regular
    I liked it because I like seeing little Spanish girls die.

    I can't really explain why.

    I think it might have something to do with my mother being a dead Spanish girl.

  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    it's been too long since i've seen it for me to go through it point by point

    but you are basically arguing that a story cannot be both depressing and good

    which is absurd

  • NullzoneNullzone Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    it's been too long since i've seen it for me to go through it point by point

    but you are basically arguing that a story cannot be both depressing and good

    which is absurd

    No, I'm saying that the story completely unravels its own worth by turning 100 minutes of a compelling character and her ordeals into a worthless pile of junk by killing her off in the story's final moments.

    The Pursuit of Happyness is depressing and good, because the writers used the depressing aspects to allow something to flourish in their wake; this is not afforded that opportunity and suffers for it. If they wanted to kill her character to make a point or compel the audience, it needed to be done earlier so the rest of the time could be devoted to observing the impact that her life ultimately had on those around her.

    Nullzone on
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    personally, yeah, I didn't like Pan's Labyrinth all that much

    it just felt like there was something meaningful missing from the story

    I'd have to watch it again to really elaborate on that

  • JansonJanson Registered User regular
    They show you she dies at the beginning...

  • wanderingwandering Russia state-affiliated media Registered User regular
    The ending is set-up - the entire point of her quest is she is trying to return home. Also the ending is not too bleak - on account of it's a movie about war.

  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    Nullzone wrote:
    Quoth wrote:
    why did it have to have a lesson

    Because without one the viewer inevitably feels sucker punched.

    Fairy tales are whimsical and invoke certain emotions for it, and then pull on those emotions with the tragedy of the tale, which either emphasizes the lesson to be had, or provides a vehicle on which to deliver the true reward of the story to its viewer.

    You want a good example of a fairy tale movie that still leans on tragedy? Watch Finding Neverland.

    if you think fairy tales are whimsical, i invite you to read more of them

    I think that the things that make the movie good are things that you either do not like or would argue are not there, given what you've said so far

    It's a movie that creates a fairy tale world into which a young girl escapes because her own reality is worse than even the darkest fairy tale, namely because there is often at least the hope of escape/redemption/whatever when playing by the rules

    In the snow queen, for example, the girl saves her friend because she is a good person and perseveres through hardship

    This girl can't really win if you assume her quest is a delusion, and so the film is a tragedy with a pyrrhic victory given what happens to the villain and to her and her brother

    It's also obviously a commentary on the time, which was surreal in its own way and I thought well illustrated

  • NullzoneNullzone Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Janson wrote:
    They show you she dies at the beginning...

    Right, which predisposes you to watching this girl's horrid life and thinking that there's some greater purpose at work, or that she is given justice despite her death -- neither of which proves to be true by the time the beginning and end meet.

    @Quoth The commentary on the time is part of why I respect it as a film, I just dislike it as a narrative work (particularly when it gets pitched as a "real-life fairy tale").

    Nullzone on
  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    How is it not justice that the villain dies and loses the child he wanted from the beginning

  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    Her whole goal was to save her brother and she succeeded

  • SeriouslySeriously Registered User regular
    Nullzone wrote:
    it's been too long since i've seen it for me to go through it point by point

    but you are basically arguing that a story cannot be both depressing and good

    which is absurd

    No, I'm saying that the story completely unravels its own worth by turning 100 minutes of a compelling character and her ordeals into a worthless pile of junk by killing her off in the story's final moments.

    The story has no meaning because...she doesn't live?

    okay

  • NullzoneNullzone Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Quoth wrote:
    How is it not justice that the villain dies and loses the child he wanted from the beginning

    Because his actions and the actions of the people that lead him to that point are independent of Ophelia's involvement; their paths did not visibly intertwine except for him to be the source of her terror.

    @Seriously Everything Ophelia experienced served to be meaningless in her death. She was kind-hearted from beginning to end; she refused to take her brother's blood to open the gate, which would have been her escape from the nightmare. Instead, the gate was opened by the villain spilling her blood. It wasn't even an act of sacrifice, but of pacifism met with brutality.

    None of her adventure served to impact the choices made in that final moment, so what was the point of all of it?

    Nullzone on
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