The problem with patriotism as espoused by the OP is that it's being used to specifically shut down criticism of problems in someone's country.
Not once in this thread did I intend to promote a brand of patriotism which brooks no criticism. Look at my first post. I am literally saying in it that when I was younger I did not have pride in my nation, and now as an adult watching us cope with a terrible and drawn out economic crisis, I see that I was wrong and there is a ton here to be damn proud of.
I see practically nothing for us to be proud of in the way we're dealing with this economic crisis.
We're rolling over and allowing ourselves to be completely fucked by the ultra-wealthy. We're listening to a bunch of manipulative fucktards who have nothing but their own selfish interests at heart when it comes to how to deal with it. We've done almost nothing to fix what caused the problems in the first place, we've held no one who caused it responsible, and we continue to lionize those that are the fucking problem.
What, precisely, is there to be proud of, there? As far as I can tell, your big thing to be proud of is that we bend over and take it much better than people in other countries. Go USA, I guess? Maybe we should change our flag from the Stars & Stripes to the Ass of the people and the spiked, rusty iron gauntlet of the free market about to give us a prostate exam?
Amazing how different our outlooks are. I think that people adhering to the rule of law despite facing problems is just an incredible testament to the strength of the American people. I really have a hard time understanding this rioting is good mindset.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
thanatos is the angriest nicest person youll ever meet. I think that adhering to the law is admirable at times, but contemptable in cases where youve exhausted legal avenues and a great injustice still exists.
The problem with patriotism as espoused by the OP is that it's being used to specifically shut down criticism of problems in someone's country.
Not once in this thread did I intend to promote a brand of patriotism which brooks no criticism. Look at my first post. I am literally saying in it that when I was younger I did not have pride in my nation, and now as an adult watching us cope with a terrible and drawn out economic crisis, I see that I was wrong and there is a ton here to be damn proud of.
I see practically nothing for us to be proud of in the way we're dealing with this economic crisis.
We're rolling over and allowing ourselves to be completely fucked by the ultra-wealthy. We're listening to a bunch of manipulative fucktards who have nothing but their own selfish interests at heart when it comes to how to deal with it. We've done almost nothing to fix what caused the problems in the first place, we've held no one who caused it responsible, and we continue to lionize those that are the fucking problem.
What, precisely, is there to be proud of, there? As far as I can tell, your big thing to be proud of is that we bend over and take it much better than people in other countries. Go USA, I guess? Maybe we should change our flag from the Stars & Stripes to the Ass of the people and the spiked, rusty iron gauntlet of the free market about to give us a prostate exam?
It's the same attitude behind things like "We are the 53%" and the entirety of the "Deficit Hawk" culture in DC.
Suffering is good and noble and, for some weird reason, something to aspire to and be proud of.
Amazing how different our outlooks are. I think that people adhering to the rule of law despite facing problems is just an incredible testament to the strength of the American people. I really have a hard time understanding this rioting is good mindset.
Do you have trouble understanding why there are riots in China despite significantly harsher crack downs?
I posted this in chat originally, but decided to stick it here too. Posting at six in the morning with a fussy baby in my lap may be a bad idea, but I was annoyed:
I mean seriously, the goal of the OP couldn't last one post? Patriotism is simply pride in your country, and no one could come up with one damn thing to be proud of their country for? How cynical and self-centered can we be?
This thread has nothing to do with cynicism or self-centeredness. Pretty much everyone disagreed with a few things kungfu said, such as being overjoyed that Americans will work into an early grave for peanuts, and the thread has been that argument.
Of course, the fact that Americans have that kind of capacity and are willing to make so much for their fellow people is a point of pride.
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spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Amazing how different our outlooks are. I think that people adhering to the rule of law despite facing problems is just an incredible testament to the strength of the American people. I really have a hard time understanding this rioting is good mindset.
Do you have trouble understanding why there are riots in China despite significantly harsher crack downs?
Yes and no. My understanding is that China is very inconsistent in the enforcement of laws I'm different provinces, so that while the coastal provinces are really well developed and have a robust rule of law, the people in certain rural provinces have never really enjoyed the benefits of police protection or rule of law. I understand why people in the third world riot, since they have no system they can go through to effect change, and no reason to believe their government will actually ever help them.
In a shorter time than most European cultures have existed, we founded a nation, expanded across one of the worlds largest land masses, became a predominant world power, and invented so many of the things that have ushered in the modern world. Even with all the bad, how can people not see a lot to be proud of there.
America didn't pop into existence from nothing. It was based around history and knowledge of other nations, primarily the United Kingdom. In fact it began as a colony from Britain. The only reason it isn't still Britain's territory anymore was because there was a war to establish its independence.
It only became a major super power after World War 2 when everyone else was recovering from the wars. The advantage America had at the time was that it wasn't close enough to Europe to end up on the front lines, excluding Pearl Harbor. Without that America would not have had such an edge in the modern world.
I don't think I have ever said in this thread that I don't have complaints with America. I think that pride is your country is important, because without that pride, why bother to put the effort into fixing problems instead of just moving to another one?
To be a better person. To make life more peaceful and tolerable for peers and the less fortunate. You don't need patriotism for that.
Harry Dresden on
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
In a shorter time than most European cultures have existed, we founded a nation, expanded across one of the worlds largest land masses, became a predominant world power, and invented so many of the things that have ushered in the modern world. Even with all the bad, how can people not see a lot to be proud of there.
America didn't pop into existence from nothing. It was based around history and knowledge of other nations, primarily the United Kingdom. In fact it began as a colony from Britain. The only reason it isn't still Britain's territory anymore was because there was a war to establish its independence.
It only became a major super power after World War 2 when everyone else was recovering from the wars. The advantage America had at the time was that it wasn't close enough to Europe to end up on the front lines, excluding Pearl Harbor. Without that America would not have had such an edge in the modern world.
This is pretty much my viewpoint. that 55 years of america being balling outta control? Thats the world not being at their potential, not us being intrinsicly better.
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spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
In a shorter time than most European cultures have existed, we founded a nation, expanded across one of the worlds largest land masses, became a predominant world power, and invented so many of the things that have ushered in the modern world. Even with all the bad, how can people not see a lot to be proud of there.
America didn't pop into existence from nothing. It was based around history and knowledge of other nations, primarily the United Kingdom. In fact it began as a colony from Britain. The only reason it isn't still Britain's territory anymore was because there was a war to establish its independence.
It only became a major super power after World War 2 when everyone else was recovering from the wars. The advantage America had at the time was that it wasn't close enough to Europe to end up on the front lines, excluding Pearl Harbor. Without that America would not have had such an edge in the modern world.
All true, but I don't see why you can't be proud of accomplishments because they hinged at least in part on luck. If that were the case, what would be left to celebrate? I'm not saying "we're number one!" or "if America could pull itself up by its bootstraps then why can't you?" I'm just saying that we have a rich history full of great accomplishments, especially considering how young our country is, and that, through a mix of history and immigration, we have developed a great, hard working people committed to the rule of law.
Amazing how different our outlooks are. I think that people adhering to the rule of law despite facing problems is just an incredible testament to the strength of the American people. I really have a hard time understanding this rioting is good mindset.
Do you have trouble understanding why there are riots in China despite significantly harsher crack downs?
Yes and no. My understanding is that China is very inconsistent in the enforcement of laws I'm different provinces, so that while the coastal provinces are really well developed and have a robust rule of law, the people in certain rural provinces have never really enjoyed the benefits of police protection or rule of law. I understand why people in the third world riot, since they have no system they can go through to effect change...
A strong police force does not let a discontented group create change against the government's will. The reverse, actually.
In a shorter time than most European cultures have existed, we founded a nation, expanded across one of the worlds largest land masses, became a predominant world power, and invented so many of the things that have ushered in the modern world. Even with all the bad, how can people not see a lot to be proud of there.
America didn't pop into existence from nothing. It was based around history and knowledge of other nations, primarily the United Kingdom. In fact it began as a colony from Britain. The only reason it isn't still Britain's territory anymore was because there was a war to establish its independence.
It only became a major super power after World War 2 when everyone else was recovering from the wars. The advantage America had at the time was that it wasn't close enough to Europe to end up on the front lines, excluding Pearl Harbor. Without that America would not have had such an edge in the modern world.
All true, but I don't see why you can't be proud of accomplishments because they hinged at least in part on luck. If that were the case, what would be left to celebrate? I'm not saying "we're number one!" or "if America could pull itself up by its bootstraps then why can't you?" I'm just saying that we have a rich history full of great accomplishments, especially considering how young our country is, and that, through a mix of history and immigration, we have developed a great, hard working people committed to the rule of law.
Out of curiosity, what would you tell someone from a less... successful country? Like, say, Iraq. It was arbitrarily created by western powers for their own purposes after WW1, and its history is basically a series of dictators and awful, losing wars. Their whole economy depends on oil. As a country they just don't seem to have anything to be proud of.
Would patriotism still be a good thing there, in your opinion?
All true, but I don't see why you can't be proud of accomplishments because they hinged at least in part on luck. If that were the case, what would be left to celebrate? I'm not saying "we're number one!" or "if America could pull itself up by its bootstraps then why can't you?" I'm just saying that we have a rich history full of great accomplishments, especially considering how young our country is, and that, through a mix of history and immigration, we have developed a great, hard working people committed to the rule of law.
There's nothing wrong with being proud of America's accomplishments. It has accomplished many great things. It's just not the whole picture. America has done and still does incredible bad deeds, has a horrid past and the nation's being a super power luck is the main reason for it's success after World War 2.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
In a shorter time than most European cultures have existed, we founded a nation, expanded across one of the worlds largest land masses, became a predominant world power, and invented so many of the things that have ushered in the modern world. Even with all the bad, how can people not see a lot to be proud of there.
America didn't pop into existence from nothing. It was based around history and knowledge of other nations, primarily the United Kingdom. In fact it began as a colony from Britain. The only reason it isn't still Britain's territory anymore was because there was a war to establish its independence.
It only became a major super power after World War 2 when everyone else was recovering from the wars. The advantage America had at the time was that it wasn't close enough to Europe to end up on the front lines, excluding Pearl Harbor. Without that America would not have had such an edge in the modern world.
All true, but I don't see why you can't be proud of accomplishments because they hinged at least in part on luck. If that were the case, what would be left to celebrate? I'm not saying "we're number one!" or "if America could pull itself up by its bootstraps then why can't you?" I'm just saying that we have a rich history full of great accomplishments, especially considering how young our country is, and that, through a mix of history and immigration, we have developed a great, hard working people committed to the rule of law.
Out of curiosity, what would you tell someone from a less... successful country? Like, say, Iraq. It was arbitrarily created by western powers for their own purposes after WW1, and its history is basically a series of dictators and awful, losing wars. Their whole economy depends on oil. As a country they just don't seem to have anything to be proud of.
Would patriotism still be a good thing there, in your opinion?
I'm sure there are great things about Iraq that the Iraqis like. We shouldn't conflate a people with its leadership.
In a shorter time than most European cultures have existed, we founded a nation, expanded across one of the worlds largest land masses, became a predominant world power, and invented so many of the things that have ushered in the modern world. Even with all the bad, how can people not see a lot to be proud of there.
America didn't pop into existence from nothing. It was based around history and knowledge of other nations, primarily the United Kingdom. In fact it began as a colony from Britain. The only reason it isn't still Britain's territory anymore was because there was a war to establish its independence.
It only became a major super power after World War 2 when everyone else was recovering from the wars. The advantage America had at the time was that it wasn't close enough to Europe to end up on the front lines, excluding Pearl Harbor. Without that America would not have had such an edge in the modern world.
All true, but I don't see why you can't be proud of accomplishments because they hinged at least in part on luck. If that were the case, what would be left to celebrate? I'm not saying "we're number one!" or "if America could pull itself up by its bootstraps then why can't you?" I'm just saying that we have a rich history full of great accomplishments, especially considering how young our country is, and that, through a mix of history and immigration, we have developed a great, hard working people committed to the rule of law.
Out of curiosity, what would you tell someone from a less... successful country? Like, say, Iraq. It was arbitrarily created by western powers for their own purposes after WW1, and its history is basically a series of dictators and awful, losing wars. Their whole economy depends on oil. As a country they just don't seem to have anything to be proud of.
Would patriotism still be a good thing there, in your opinion?
I'm sure there are great things about Iraq that the Iraqis like. We shouldn't conflate a people with its leadership.
I'm not just talking Saddam Hussein. The country wouldn't even exist without Western powers arbitrarily drawing its borders less than a hundred years ago. It's totally irrational to think of Iraq as some great nation that you should feel strong patriotism for. I'm sure there are good things about the people and culture there, but those are totally unrelated to the actual country.
Think of it this way- if space aliens invaded the US tomorrow, and then randomly cut it up into smaller independent nations, would you feel a sense of patriotism for your new country?
I'm not just talking Saddam Hussein. The country wouldn't even exist without Western powers arbitrarily drawing its borders less than a hundred years ago. It's totally irrational to think of Iraq as some great nation that you should feel strong patriotism for. I'm sure there are good things about the people and culture there, but those are totally unrelated to the actual country.
The country being created by other means is irrelevant to the people who live there. There's more a nation then its borders. It's people, culture, experiences, traditions, accomplishments etc.
Israel was created by Western powers after WW II, IIR. Would you not understand why they're patriotic for their country?
Think of it this way- if space aliens invaded the US tomorrow, and then randomly cut it up into smaller independent nations, would you feel a sense of patriotism for your new country?
If the new nations existed for years and many people were born and raised in them, sure. The only difference is the nations were created by aliens, not human empires.
I'm not just talking Saddam Hussein. The country wouldn't even exist without Western powers arbitrarily drawing its borders less than a hundred years ago. It's totally irrational to think of Iraq as some great nation that you should feel strong patriotism for. I'm sure there are good things about the people and culture there, but those are totally unrelated to the actual country.
The country being created by other means is irrelevant to the people who live there. There's more a nation then its borders. It's people, culture, experiences, traditions, accomplishments etc.
Israel was created by Western powers after WW II, IIR. Would you not understand why they're patriotic for their country?
Most of those are not really related to the country, and so they don't really have anything to do with patriotism. Like, you might be strongly religious, and consider it a good thing that so many people in Iraq are muslim, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the country itself. It's just that the Europeans decided to draw the borders in a place that had mostly muslims living there. Likewise, most of the culture and traditions go back to long before the modern nation of Iraq, and have nothing to do with it. There might be a bunch of great people living there, but it's hard to see them as being really distinct from the people on the other side of its borders.
I can understand having pride in Israel. As a country, it's overcome some pretty incredible odds just to get founded and survive, and now it's the regional superpower. But I have a hard time thinking of anything that the nation of Iraq has done that someone can rationally be proud of. Being a "patriot" there is just stupid.
Most of those are not really related to the country, and so they don't really have anything to do with patriotism. Like, you might be strongly religious, and consider it a good thing that so many people in Iraq are muslim, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the country itself. It's just that the Europeans decided to draw the borders in a place that had mostly muslims living there. Likewise, most of the culture and traditions go back to long before the modern nation of Iraq, and have nothing to do with it. There might be a bunch of great people living there, but it's hard to see them as being really distinct from the people on the other side of its borders.
I can understand having pride in Israel. As a country, it's overcome some pretty incredible odds just to get founded and survive, and now it's the regional superpower. But I have a hard time thinking of anything that the nation of Iraq has done that someone can rationally be proud of. Being a "patriot" there is just stupid.
Patriots in Iraq wouldn't be completely out of the question. They may agree with the leadership or they may try to find something to be proud of to get their mind off living in a third world country.
The latter occurred with an escaped North Korean teenager interviewed by an Asian American report in a documentary about North Korea I watched a few years ago. The kid hated living there, but he was still proud that NK was a pain in the ass of the world.
Most of those are not really related to the country, and so they don't really have anything to do with patriotism. Like, you might be strongly religious, and consider it a good thing that so many people in Iraq are muslim, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the country itself. It's just that the Europeans decided to draw the borders in a place that had mostly muslims living there. Likewise, most of the culture and traditions go back to long before the modern nation of Iraq, and have nothing to do with it. There might be a bunch of great people living there, but it's hard to see them as being really distinct from the people on the other side of its borders.
I can understand having pride in Israel. As a country, it's overcome some pretty incredible odds just to get founded and survive, and now it's the regional superpower. But I have a hard time thinking of anything that the nation of Iraq has done that someone can rationally be proud of. Being a "patriot" there is just stupid.
Patriots in Iraq wouldn't be completely out of the question. They may agree with the leadership or they may try to find something to be proud of to get their mind off living in a third world country.
The latter occurred with an escaped North Korean teenager interviewed by an Asian American report in a documentary about North Korea I watched a few years ago. The kid hated living there, but he was still proud that NK was a pain in the ass of the world.
Sure, I can sort of understand having some pride in the NK military if you live there. But the Iraqi military was a joke...
There's plenty of good things in Iraq, I'm sure, I just don't think any of them are something you can feel "patriotic" about.
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lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
I have pride in Israel for what the country ideally stands for and has had to overcome to survive.
However, The more I learn about Israel's national policies and politics and state of being at the moment, the more saddened I become and the less pride that I can feel. There is still though that innate sense of pride that happens when I hear Hatikva being played/sung. Same as the random moments of pride that hit me when I hear the Star Spangled Banner played/sung. Coolest moment of 'national pride' that I can think of in memory though has got to be the Rugby World Cup Finals this year. Living in New Zealand for the whole thing was amazing. But going to a pub to watch the finals and being surrounded by all these normally insanely laid-back Kiwis for whom sometimes the best thing about new Zealand is that you can travel pretty much anywhere in the world with a kiwi passport and not have troubles, who are standing and full-throated singing their national anthem (English and Maori) was astounding.
Kiwis don't often get that national pride thing happening, but when they do, it is a sight to see. Of course winning the RWC was even better!
I feel a sense of awe when I think about the US. I think about the things that our nation has done, I think about the people that we've produced. The arts, the science, the religion, the rights and the freedoms. Some things we're still a bit backwards on this is true. But overall, the USA has been a fantastic force in the world, and a force for good. And sometimes, you have to sit back and take a long look at it all, acknowledge that there are some faults in the artwork, but overall it's still been a gorgeous tapestry.
And that is definitely something to be proud about.
You're really stretching the definition, if you have to include people who are insane. At the point the word is pretty much meaningless.
Insane people are still people, though. It's not that different from the fundamentalist Christians in Western countries, it's just more out in the open then they are in Western society. They may not consider being patriotic identical to us, but in their mind they're "good people". It's similar to the psychology terrorists and criminals have. Not that you have be insane to be evil, in my mind those guys are worse.
Iraq has an ethnic identity, it doesn't need other things to build a sense of nationhood around. These people are like us, those people are not like us: let us build a nation of, by, and for people like us. So what if your history is of foreign boots stamping on your face since the Mongols were a thing? It only goes to show how not-like-us everyone else is.
The problem with doing so is a tendency to deny the legitimacy of non-Iraqi-Arabic groups, like the Iraqi Kurdish minority, and also the tendency toward irredentism - advocating annexing lands administered by other states (e.g., Kuwait) on the grounds of common ethnic possession.
It took an incredibly long time for Europe to progress between the rise of nationalism and the end of total war as a means of resolving nationalist conflict. A lot of the effort when into establishing bargains so that states as enabled by geopolitical and economic realities actually came to reflect ethnic territories in some (possibly exceedingly complicated) way, as per Belgium, which spent well over three decades after WW2 sorting out all the fine print. And when the states so enabled fall apart, everything goes up in flames again: hence, Yugoslavia. It has a kind of sad predictability.
The problem with patriotism as espoused by the OP is that it's being used to specifically shut down criticism of problems in someone's country.
Not once in this thread did I intend to promote a brand of patriotism which brooks no criticism. Look at my first post. I am literally saying in it that when I was younger I did not have pride in my nation, and now as an adult watching us cope with a terrible and drawn out economic crisis, I see that I was wrong and there is a ton here to be damn proud of.
I see practically nothing for us to be proud of in the way we're dealing with this economic crisis.
We're rolling over and allowing ourselves to be completely fucked by the ultra-wealthy. We're listening to a bunch of manipulative fucktards who have nothing but their own selfish interests at heart when it comes to how to deal with it. We've done almost nothing to fix what caused the problems in the first place, we've held no one who caused it responsible, and we continue to lionize those that are the fucking problem.
What, precisely, is there to be proud of, there? As far as I can tell, your big thing to be proud of is that we bend over and take it much better than people in other countries. Go USA, I guess? Maybe we should change our flag from the Stars & Stripes to the Ass of the people and the spiked, rusty iron gauntlet of the free market about to give us a prostate exam?
Amazing how different our outlooks are. I think that people adhering to the rule of law despite facing problems is just an incredible testament to the strength of the American people. I really have a hard time understanding this rioting is good mindset.
Yes, Lord knows that historically speaking, the best way to change entirely fucked-up systems has been by sitting back, following the law, and being super-nice about it.
Note that I'm not calling for riots, but sitting back and moving because the city asked very nicely? That's some stupid-ass, fucked-up shit.
If only those darkies had just sat in the back of the bus like good little ni... negros, we wouldn't be having the problems we're having today.
If I were naming societies which adhered to rule of law, I would be naming Japan or post-independence Singapore well before the US, which has a far longer history of civil disobedience.
And, you know, has had a civil war in its history which it never renounced at a popular level. That doesn't say much about adhering to rule of law.
If I were naming societies which adhered to rule of law, I would be naming Japan or post-independence Singapore well before the US, which has a far longer history of civil disobedience.
And, you know, has had a civil war in its history which it never renounced at a popular level. That doesn't say much about adhering to rule of law.
Japan has had a civil war too. And hundreds of years of military dictatorships. And in the modern age, rule of law isn't a particularly big part of Japanese life. People conform. Law isn't really important. For example, it's perfectly normal and acceptable to cycle on the right-hand side of the road, even though the law states that you should cycle on the left, along with cars. The Yakuza still flourish and are a part of everyday life for many people. Litigation is not a common method of settling differences, and many laws (e.g. ones protecting women from the sexual abuse that is rampant on trains) go unenforced.
Singapore, meanwhile, has an extremely authoritarian and repressive government, I believe (although I bow to your far greater direct experience). Doesn't that go right to the conflicting definitions of 'rule of law', as the government of Singapore are not limited by respect for inalienable rights?
Don't confuse 'rule of law' with 'non-violence', 'conformism' or 'repression'.
I figure I could take a bear.
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spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Well, it looks like SOPA has likely been defeated. No riots. No violence. Just dedication to the process. I am definitely proud to see the system in action like this.
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spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
If I were naming societies which adhered to rule of law, I would be naming Japan or post-independence Singapore well before the US, which has a far longer history of civil disobedience.
And, you know, has had a civil war in its history which it never renounced at a popular level. That doesn't say much about adhering to rule of law.
The thing about civil disobedience is that it expressly acknowledges the validity of the rule you choose to break. You don't say "I won't move from this spot and you have no right to arrest me," but "I won't move from this spot BECAUSE it means you can arrest me, and I think that's wrong." By contrast, I think rioters generally try to avoid arrest, and to fight charges if they are arrested. It's much more cowardly than standing up for your beliefs and accepting any punishment that follows.
Obviously, the civil war is an example of our failure to adhere to the rule of law, but I don't think that incident (or others, like the fact that the country was born from a rebellion) really take away from the basic prevalance of the rule of law in America. Sure, it is not the greatest paragon of rule of law, but we do a pretty good job at it, IMO. Certainly in relation to our European peers with their constant rioting.
Well, it looks like SOPA has likely been defeated. No riots. No violence. Just dedication to the process. I am definitely proud to see the system in action like this.
The fact that SOPA got this far is kinda an embarrassment. It was a horribly conceived piece of legislation.
Pretty much, other than smoking cigarettes and being socialists
In all seriousness, while riots are a rare occurrence, they do see to happen much more often in Europe than America. I lost count of the large scale riots that happened in Europe over the last few years.
If I were naming societies which adhered to rule of law, I would be naming Japan or post-independence Singapore well before the US, which has a far longer history of civil disobedience.
And, you know, has had a civil war in its history which it never renounced at a popular level. That doesn't say much about adhering to rule of law.
The thing about civil disobedience is that it expressly acknowledges the validity of the rule you choose to break. You don't say "I won't move from this spot and you have no right to arrest me," but "I won't move from this spot BECAUSE it means you can arrest me, and I think that's wrong." By contrast, I think rioters generally try to avoid arrest, and to fight charges if they are arrested. It's much more cowardly than standing up for your beliefs and accepting any punishment that follows.
Obviously, the civil war is an example of our failure to adhere to the rule of law, but I don't think that incident (or others, like the fact that the country was born from a rebellion) really take away from the basic prevalance of the rule of law in America. Sure, it is not the greatest paragon of rule of law, but we do a pretty good job at it, IMO. Certainly in relation to our European peers with their constant rioting.
I think that you a) don't actually know the numbers of riots compared to your "European peers" in the last few years and b) for some reason believe that Europe is a homogeneous country.
If I were naming societies which adhered to rule of law, I would be naming Japan or post-independence Singapore well before the US, which has a far longer history of civil disobedience.
And, you know, has had a civil war in its history which it never renounced at a popular level. That doesn't say much about adhering to rule of law.
The thing about civil disobedience is that it expressly acknowledges the validity of the rule you choose to break. You don't say "I won't move from this spot and you have no right to arrest me," but "I won't move from this spot BECAUSE it means you can arrest me, and I think that's wrong." By contrast, I think rioters generally try to avoid arrest, and to fight charges if they are arrested. It's much more cowardly than standing up for your beliefs and accepting any punishment that follows.
Obviously, the civil war is an example of our failure to adhere to the rule of law, but I don't think that incident (or others, like the fact that the country was born from a rebellion) really take away from the basic prevalance of the rule of law in America. Sure, it is not the greatest paragon of rule of law, but we do a pretty good job at it, IMO. Certainly in relation to our European peers with their constant rioting.
I think that you a) don't actually know the numbers of riots compared to your "European peers" in the last few years and b) for some reason believe that Europe is a homogeneous country.
I love how the first riot in the 90's was the Poll Tax riot. I mean, was anyone surprised that people rioted over that?
You hit the nail on the head. If all you care about is humamity, why not move somewhere else when your home has problems?
Because the people around me that have problems are human.
I meant more from a self preservation sense than a caring about others sense.
Which is not caring about humanity, it's caring about yourself.
And I didn't see anyone saying they only care for themselves and no one else, they just don't need pride to motivate them.
To get ridiculously nit-picky. Last I checked, if you are human then you actually are part of humanity and while pride is not required for motivation, it is known to be a very effective human motivator.
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I meant more from a self preservation sense than a caring about others sense.
Which is not caring about humanity, it's caring about yourself.
And I didn't see anyone saying they only care for themselves and no one else, they just don't need pride to motivate them.
Amazing how different our outlooks are. I think that people adhering to the rule of law despite facing problems is just an incredible testament to the strength of the American people. I really have a hard time understanding this rioting is good mindset.
It's the same attitude behind things like "We are the 53%" and the entirety of the "Deficit Hawk" culture in DC.
Suffering is good and noble and, for some weird reason, something to aspire to and be proud of.
Do you have trouble understanding why there are riots in China despite significantly harsher crack downs?
Of course, the fact that Americans have that kind of capacity and are willing to make so much for their fellow people is a point of pride.
Yes and no. My understanding is that China is very inconsistent in the enforcement of laws I'm different provinces, so that while the coastal provinces are really well developed and have a robust rule of law, the people in certain rural provinces have never really enjoyed the benefits of police protection or rule of law. I understand why people in the third world riot, since they have no system they can go through to effect change, and no reason to believe their government will actually ever help them.
America didn't pop into existence from nothing. It was based around history and knowledge of other nations, primarily the United Kingdom. In fact it began as a colony from Britain. The only reason it isn't still Britain's territory anymore was because there was a war to establish its independence.
It only became a major super power after World War 2 when everyone else was recovering from the wars. The advantage America had at the time was that it wasn't close enough to Europe to end up on the front lines, excluding Pearl Harbor. Without that America would not have had such an edge in the modern world.
To be a better person. To make life more peaceful and tolerable for peers and the less fortunate. You don't need patriotism for that.
This is pretty much my viewpoint. that 55 years of america being balling outta control? Thats the world not being at their potential, not us being intrinsicly better.
All true, but I don't see why you can't be proud of accomplishments because they hinged at least in part on luck. If that were the case, what would be left to celebrate? I'm not saying "we're number one!" or "if America could pull itself up by its bootstraps then why can't you?" I'm just saying that we have a rich history full of great accomplishments, especially considering how young our country is, and that, through a mix of history and immigration, we have developed a great, hard working people committed to the rule of law.
A strong police force does not let a discontented group create change against the government's will. The reverse, actually.
Out of curiosity, what would you tell someone from a less... successful country? Like, say, Iraq. It was arbitrarily created by western powers for their own purposes after WW1, and its history is basically a series of dictators and awful, losing wars. Their whole economy depends on oil. As a country they just don't seem to have anything to be proud of.
Would patriotism still be a good thing there, in your opinion?
There's nothing wrong with being proud of America's accomplishments. It has accomplished many great things. It's just not the whole picture. America has done and still does incredible bad deeds, has a horrid past and the nation's being a super power luck is the main reason for it's success after World War 2.
I'm sure there are great things about Iraq that the Iraqis like. We shouldn't conflate a people with its leadership.
I'm not just talking Saddam Hussein. The country wouldn't even exist without Western powers arbitrarily drawing its borders less than a hundred years ago. It's totally irrational to think of Iraq as some great nation that you should feel strong patriotism for. I'm sure there are good things about the people and culture there, but those are totally unrelated to the actual country.
Think of it this way- if space aliens invaded the US tomorrow, and then randomly cut it up into smaller independent nations, would you feel a sense of patriotism for your new country?
The country being created by other means is irrelevant to the people who live there. There's more a nation then its borders. It's people, culture, experiences, traditions, accomplishments etc.
Israel was created by Western powers after WW II, IIR. Would you not understand why they're patriotic for their country?
If the new nations existed for years and many people were born and raised in them, sure. The only difference is the nations were created by aliens, not human empires.
I can understand having pride in Israel. As a country, it's overcome some pretty incredible odds just to get founded and survive, and now it's the regional superpower. But I have a hard time thinking of anything that the nation of Iraq has done that someone can rationally be proud of. Being a "patriot" there is just stupid.
Patriots in Iraq wouldn't be completely out of the question. They may agree with the leadership or they may try to find something to be proud of to get their mind off living in a third world country.
The latter occurred with an escaped North Korean teenager interviewed by an Asian American report in a documentary about North Korea I watched a few years ago. The kid hated living there, but he was still proud that NK was a pain in the ass of the world.
There's plenty of good things in Iraq, I'm sure, I just don't think any of them are something you can feel "patriotic" about.
However, The more I learn about Israel's national policies and politics and state of being at the moment, the more saddened I become and the less pride that I can feel. There is still though that innate sense of pride that happens when I hear Hatikva being played/sung. Same as the random moments of pride that hit me when I hear the Star Spangled Banner played/sung. Coolest moment of 'national pride' that I can think of in memory though has got to be the Rugby World Cup Finals this year. Living in New Zealand for the whole thing was amazing. But going to a pub to watch the finals and being surrounded by all these normally insanely laid-back Kiwis for whom sometimes the best thing about new Zealand is that you can travel pretty much anywhere in the world with a kiwi passport and not have troubles, who are standing and full-throated singing their national anthem (English and Maori) was astounding.
Kiwis don't often get that national pride thing happening, but when they do, it is a sight to see. Of course winning the RWC was even better!
I feel a sense of awe when I think about the US. I think about the things that our nation has done, I think about the people that we've produced. The arts, the science, the religion, the rights and the freedoms. Some things we're still a bit backwards on this is true. But overall, the USA has been a fantastic force in the world, and a force for good. And sometimes, you have to sit back and take a long look at it all, acknowledge that there are some faults in the artwork, but overall it's still been a gorgeous tapestry.
And that is definitely something to be proud about.
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Against superior nations, sure. They did fine controlling the population and taking down rebellions, though.
I'm just not completely ruling the option out.
Is that really something you would feel patriotic about?
Under normal circumstances, no. I'm just thinking out of the box here. Not endorsing such activities.
Just because we find those ideas awful doesn't mean everyone does. Otherwise this world would be a much better place than it is.
You're really stretching the definition, if you have to include people who are insane. At the point the word is pretty much meaningless.
Insane people are still people, though. It's not that different from the fundamentalist Christians in Western countries, it's just more out in the open then they are in Western society. They may not consider being patriotic identical to us, but in their mind they're "good people". It's similar to the psychology terrorists and criminals have. Not that you have be insane to be evil, in my mind those guys are worse.
The problem with doing so is a tendency to deny the legitimacy of non-Iraqi-Arabic groups, like the Iraqi Kurdish minority, and also the tendency toward irredentism - advocating annexing lands administered by other states (e.g., Kuwait) on the grounds of common ethnic possession.
It took an incredibly long time for Europe to progress between the rise of nationalism and the end of total war as a means of resolving nationalist conflict. A lot of the effort when into establishing bargains so that states as enabled by geopolitical and economic realities actually came to reflect ethnic territories in some (possibly exceedingly complicated) way, as per Belgium, which spent well over three decades after WW2 sorting out all the fine print. And when the states so enabled fall apart, everything goes up in flames again: hence, Yugoslavia. It has a kind of sad predictability.
Note that I'm not calling for riots, but sitting back and moving because the city asked very nicely? That's some stupid-ass, fucked-up shit.
If only those darkies had just sat in the back of the bus like good little ni... negros, we wouldn't be having the problems we're having today.
And, you know, has had a civil war in its history which it never renounced at a popular level. That doesn't say much about adhering to rule of law.
Japan has had a civil war too. And hundreds of years of military dictatorships. And in the modern age, rule of law isn't a particularly big part of Japanese life. People conform. Law isn't really important. For example, it's perfectly normal and acceptable to cycle on the right-hand side of the road, even though the law states that you should cycle on the left, along with cars. The Yakuza still flourish and are a part of everyday life for many people. Litigation is not a common method of settling differences, and many laws (e.g. ones protecting women from the sexual abuse that is rampant on trains) go unenforced.
Singapore, meanwhile, has an extremely authoritarian and repressive government, I believe (although I bow to your far greater direct experience). Doesn't that go right to the conflicting definitions of 'rule of law', as the government of Singapore are not limited by respect for inalienable rights?
Don't confuse 'rule of law' with 'non-violence', 'conformism' or 'repression'.
The thing about civil disobedience is that it expressly acknowledges the validity of the rule you choose to break. You don't say "I won't move from this spot and you have no right to arrest me," but "I won't move from this spot BECAUSE it means you can arrest me, and I think that's wrong." By contrast, I think rioters generally try to avoid arrest, and to fight charges if they are arrested. It's much more cowardly than standing up for your beliefs and accepting any punishment that follows.
Obviously, the civil war is an example of our failure to adhere to the rule of law, but I don't think that incident (or others, like the fact that the country was born from a rebellion) really take away from the basic prevalance of the rule of law in America. Sure, it is not the greatest paragon of rule of law, but we do a pretty good job at it, IMO. Certainly in relation to our European peers with their constant rioting.
The fact that SOPA got this far is kinda an embarrassment. It was a horribly conceived piece of legislation.
Pretty much, other than smoking cigarettes and being socialists
In all seriousness, while riots are a rare occurrence, they do see to happen much more often in Europe than America. I lost count of the large scale riots that happened in Europe over the last few years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots#1990s_-_2000
I think that you a) don't actually know the numbers of riots compared to your "European peers" in the last few years and b) for some reason believe that Europe is a homogeneous country.
I love how the first riot in the 90's was the Poll Tax riot. I mean, was anyone surprised that people rioted over that?
To get ridiculously nit-picky. Last I checked, if you are human then you actually are part of humanity and while pride is not required for motivation, it is known to be a very effective human motivator.