Testing character through hard times. My newfound sense of patriotism.

Sparvy

So what you are saying is that Sweden has a too small population? Which is something I would probably agree with, it definitely changes the feel of the country.

But 1.4 million asians and africans is not such a small number if you consider a total population of about 10 million.

But yes, having such a small population is likely to make it feel less diverse simply because there is less of it. So I concede your point

Rhan9

The thing abouThe thing about places like Sweden and Finland, is that they're are pretty inhospitable climate-wise. Poor weather, cold, long, dark, winters and such tend to deter a portion of immigration after a while. Some just can't hack it long-term, and leave after completing their studies or earning enough money to move to a country with a milder climate. Then again, some adapt without issues, but it does nevertheless limit the success of immigration.

Some locals like going for long holidays in the south during the winter as well, so it's not that unique to the immigrants.

But really, it can't be said that these places lack diversity simply due to not having multi-million populations of (insert ethnic group here) if the local native population is not that large to begin with. If only small ethnic communities exist, but even the native community could be considered to be of medium size at the most, the proportional representation remains the same as in places with greater population.

What Organichu seems to want, is less simply diversity, but a variety of established distinct communities in the scale of small towns. Which doesn't really exist in Nordic countries, it's true. That isn't a very good way to define diversity though, as it's a very narrow version of it. It's a lot more interweaved in my experience, with some overlap between different ethnicities, and various groups of the "native" population.

Pi-r8

AManFromEarth wrote:

Julius wrote:

Well I wouldn't count them as identical. But I do think actual cultural differences are what make diversity and not whatever country your grandparents emigrated from. Americans are mostly americans and not 1/8 greek and 1/4 danish or whatever. If you don't speak another language, for the most part don't eat different food and have largely the same customs then you're not actually very diverse regardless of whether you can trace your lineage back a few generations.

The US is still almost entirely christian, largely white (and not different kinds either) and English is basically the only language.

That's not really entirely accurate, though. I mean, just the differences between lifestyles in New England, the South, the Midwest, the mountains, the west, etc. alone make us fairly diverse. And where our grandparents are from has an effect on our culture. There's a difference between a largely Italian-American neighborhood and an Irish-American one.

I think Europe is more culturally diverse than us, sure. Because we're one country and Europe isn't. But that doesn't mean there isn't diversity in the US.

Is it really that different? I've lived in pretty much all regions of America except for the South, and while there are some differences, it's nothing major. For the most part, no matter where you go in America, everyone lives in a suburb, mostly in free-standing houses, they drive a car, they shop at the same giant chain stores, and they watch the same TV shows. Going from one European country to another seemed waaaaaay more different.

AManFromEarth

Pi-r8 wrote:

AManFromEarth wrote:

Julius wrote:

Well I wouldn't count them as identical. But I do think actual cultural differences are what make diversity and not whatever country your grandparents emigrated from. Americans are mostly americans and not 1/8 greek and 1/4 danish or whatever. If you don't speak another language, for the most part don't eat different food and have largely the same customs then you're not actually very diverse regardless of whether you can trace your lineage back a few generations.

The US is still almost entirely christian, largely white (and not different kinds either) and English is basically the only language.

That's not really entirely accurate, though. I mean, just the differences between lifestyles in New England, the South, the Midwest, the mountains, the west, etc. alone make us fairly diverse. And where our grandparents are from has an effect on our culture. There's a difference between a largely Italian-American neighborhood and an Irish-American one.

I think Europe is more culturally diverse than us, sure. Because we're one country and Europe isn't. But that doesn't mean there isn't diversity in the US.

Is it really that different? I've lived in pretty much all regions of America except for the South, and while there are some differences, it's nothing major. For the most part, no matter where you go in America, everyone lives in a suburb, mostly in free-standing houses, they drive a car, they shop at the same giant chain stores, and they watch the same TV shows. Going from one European country to another seemed waaaaaay more different.

Yes, going from one country to another. That was kind of my point. We're talking on a national basis. The EU, as recent events prove, is not a country.

Organichu

what i'm saying is that i could go to plenty of major cities in america- philadelphia, new york, boston, la, chicago, on and on- and each one has huge, distinct neighborhoods, it has mixed neighborhoods, it has traditional neighborhoods, it has areas where you can go for a distinct asian experience, a distinct italian experience, etc. there are areas that are mi^2 in scope where you can't find a sign just in english. most of these cities are larger than the biggest scandinavian cities. some are multiples larger. all this is not to mention all the smaller but still sizable ethnic enclaves. there are places- filipinos above san fran, west asian and north africans in dearborn- where smaller cities are just inundated with a particular flavor.

what i'm saying is that we have 'the big diverse city' (oslo, stockholm, etc)... but ours are bigger and we have a dozen of them. and then we have a hundred other very ethnic communities. they're also hugely, topographically different.

Pi-r8

AManFromEarth wrote:

Pi-r8 wrote:

AManFromEarth wrote:

Julius wrote:

Well I wouldn't count them as identical. But I do think actual cultural differences are what make diversity and not whatever country your grandparents emigrated from. Americans are mostly americans and not 1/8 greek and 1/4 danish or whatever. If you don't speak another language, for the most part don't eat different food and have largely the same customs then you're not actually very diverse regardless of whether you can trace your lineage back a few generations.

The US is still almost entirely christian, largely white (and not different kinds either) and English is basically the only language.

That's not really entirely accurate, though. I mean, just the differences between lifestyles in New England, the South, the Midwest, the mountains, the west, etc. alone make us fairly diverse. And where our grandparents are from has an effect on our culture. There's a difference between a largely Italian-American neighborhood and an Irish-American one.

I think Europe is more culturally diverse than us, sure. Because we're one country and Europe isn't. But that doesn't mean there isn't diversity in the US.

Is it really that different? I've lived in pretty much all regions of America except for the South, and while there are some differences, it's nothing major. For the most part, no matter where you go in America, everyone lives in a suburb, mostly in free-standing houses, they drive a car, they shop at the same giant chain stores, and they watch the same TV shows. Going from one European country to another seemed waaaaaay more different.

Yes, going from one country to another. That was kind of my point. We're talking on a national basis. The EU, as recent events prove, is not a country.

OK. Well, my point was that America isn't really as geographically diverse as people like to pretend it is.
The diversity comes from different cultural groups living within the big cities.

AManFromEarth

Pi-r8 wrote:

AManFromEarth wrote:

Pi-r8 wrote:

AManFromEarth wrote:

Julius wrote:

Well I wouldn't count them as identical. But I do think actual cultural differences are what make diversity and not whatever country your grandparents emigrated from. Americans are mostly americans and not 1/8 greek and 1/4 danish or whatever. If you don't speak another language, for the most part don't eat different food and have largely the same customs then you're not actually very diverse regardless of whether you can trace your lineage back a few generations.

The US is still almost entirely christian, largely white (and not different kinds either) and English is basically the only language.

That's not really entirely accurate, though. I mean, just the differences between lifestyles in New England, the South, the Midwest, the mountains, the west, etc. alone make us fairly diverse. And where our grandparents are from has an effect on our culture. There's a difference between a largely Italian-American neighborhood and an Irish-American one.

I think Europe is more culturally diverse than us, sure. Because we're one country and Europe isn't. But that doesn't mean there isn't diversity in the US.

Is it really that different? I've lived in pretty much all regions of America except for the South, and while there are some differences, it's nothing major. For the most part, no matter where you go in America, everyone lives in a suburb, mostly in free-standing houses, they drive a car, they shop at the same giant chain stores, and they watch the same TV shows. Going from one European country to another seemed waaaaaay more different.

Yes, going from one country to another. That was kind of my point. We're talking on a national basis. The EU, as recent events prove, is not a country.

OK. Well, my point was that America isn't really as geographically diverse as people like to pretend it is.
The diversity comes from different cultural groups living within the big cities.

Flip flopper.

But seriously, that's a good point.

lonelyahava

Kalkino wrote:

Helsinki did seem pretty homogeneous, but no more than Dunedin, Wellington or Christchurch

Whereas, I have all the colors of the rainbow up here in Auckland.

And all the food too. YESSSS!


As for paying taxes? I worked last winter/summer for 3 months as a temp for a call center. I got paid $17/hour to sit and tell people that they had to pay their bills. A similar job that I had in the states paid me $13/hour after being there 4 years. For 3 months worth of work I made approximately $7k. And I paid just about $1500 of that in taxes to new zealand. And I'm more than ok with that.

Yes, it's a smaller country by far than the US, but still.

The roads are fantastic, even so far out in the boonies that the only other living things around you are birds, the roads are still well maintained. Public transportation is a real thing, and it's viable. I can get to pretty much anywhere in the city that I need to by bus, and it's not too expensive. The healthcare, compared to the states, is amazing. even for me, without insurance and only being on a working holiday visa, my doctor's visit cost less than anything i would have paid in the states. Hell, I thought I had injured my foot the other day, I called the podiatrists office to make an appointment (you don't need a referral down here, you just go to the specialist), and instead of making me an appointment and bringing me in the doctor called me and gave me a free phone consultation.

That, is freaking awesome.

oh and all that stuff about paid leave and maternal leave and things that the dude from sweden said.

poshniallo

I don't know why you're talking about diversity. Organichu doesn't like a place because it's not diverse enough for him? OK, that's fine.

But as I said before, so what? That seems to have about as much to do with this thread as me enjoying beach holidays when I travel.

Bagginses

Julius wrote:

Captain Carrot wrote:

Julius wrote:

The US is still almost entirely christian, largely white (and not different kinds either) and English is basically the only language.

Not really. A quarter of the US identifies as non-Christian, another quarter identifies as non-white (I'm not sure what you mean by 'different kinds', since we've got immigrants from every country in the world), and nearly a fifth speaks a non-English language primarily. Unless I'm interpreting your portioning adjectives incorrectly (if you're counting 75% as almost entirely), nothing you said was accurate.

If only a quarter of the US identifies as non-christian then it's really christian. Same goes for white and english.

I'm not trying to say that the US is not diverse, I'm just saying that it isn't as much as some people like to think it is. Or rather, that most other countries aren't the homogenous blobs people seem to think they are.

AManFromEarth wrote:

Julius wrote:

Well I wouldn't count them as identical. But I do think actual cultural differences are what make diversity and not whatever country your grandparents emigrated from. Americans are mostly americans and not 1/8 greek and 1/4 danish or whatever. If you don't speak another language, for the most part don't eat different food and have largely the same customs then you're not actually very diverse regardless of whether you can trace your lineage back a few generations.

The US is still almost entirely christian, largely white (and not different kinds either) and English is basically the only language.

That's not really entirely accurate, though. I mean, just the differences between lifestyles in New England, the South, the Midwest, the mountains, the west, etc. alone make us fairly diverse. And where our grandparents are from has an effect on our culture. There's a difference between a largely Italian-American neighborhood and an Irish-American one.

I think Europe is more culturally diverse than us, sure. Because we're one country and Europe isn't. But that doesn't mean there isn't diversity in the US.

Of course there is diversity. But there are different lifestyles in North France, Paris and South France too, we divide ourselves into subcultures all the time. I'm frankly amazed that most Americans speak the same language, considering how far apart they can be.

Of course, France has always been obsessed with cultural homogeneity.

I would note that the US generally doesn't count New Yorkers living in Boston as "diversity."

Organichu

poshniallo wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about diversity. Organichu doesn't like a place because it's not diverse enough for him? OK, that's fine.

But as I said before, so what? That seems to have about as much to do with this thread as me enjoying beach holidays when I travel.

i mentioned it because people were doing 'what things do i like and dislike about where i live'. and i responded to a scandinavian poster by saying 'something i don't find attractive about where you live is so and so'.

i don't know why this seems strange.

AManFromEarth

Bagginses wrote:

Julius wrote:

Captain Carrot wrote:

Julius wrote:

The US is still almost entirely christian, largely white (and not different kinds either) and English is basically the only language.

Not really. A quarter of the US identifies as non-Christian, another quarter identifies as non-white (I'm not sure what you mean by 'different kinds', since we've got immigrants from every country in the world), and nearly a fifth speaks a non-English language primarily. Unless I'm interpreting your portioning adjectives incorrectly (if you're counting 75% as almost entirely), nothing you said was accurate.

If only a quarter of the US identifies as non-christian then it's really christian. Same goes for white and english.

I'm not trying to say that the US is not diverse, I'm just saying that it isn't as much as some people like to think it is. Or rather, that most other countries aren't the homogenous blobs people seem to think they are.

AManFromEarth wrote:

Julius wrote:

Well I wouldn't count them as identical. But I do think actual cultural differences are what make diversity and not whatever country your grandparents emigrated from. Americans are mostly americans and not 1/8 greek and 1/4 danish or whatever. If you don't speak another language, for the most part don't eat different food and have largely the same customs then you're not actually very diverse regardless of whether you can trace your lineage back a few generations.

The US is still almost entirely christian, largely white (and not different kinds either) and English is basically the only language.

That's not really entirely accurate, though. I mean, just the differences between lifestyles in New England, the South, the Midwest, the mountains, the west, etc. alone make us fairly diverse. And where our grandparents are from has an effect on our culture. There's a difference between a largely Italian-American neighborhood and an Irish-American one.

I think Europe is more culturally diverse than us, sure. Because we're one country and Europe isn't. But that doesn't mean there isn't diversity in the US.

Of course there is diversity. But there are different lifestyles in North France, Paris and South France too, we divide ourselves into subcultures all the time. I'm frankly amazed that most Americans speak the same language, considering how far apart they can be.

Of course, France has always been obsessed with cultural homogeneity.

I would note that the US generally doesn't count New Yorkers living in Boston as "diversity."

Well, historically speaking all the different parts of France are different cultures. The academy keeps the other parts of France down (the Basque language most especially).

In the US it's a little different. Since we're an immigrant nation we like to remember where we came from. Outside of the Far Right, the Melting Pot is a point of pride for many Americans.

AngelHedgie

Pi-r8 wrote:

AManFromEarth wrote:

Pi-r8 wrote:

AManFromEarth wrote:

Julius wrote:

Well I wouldn't count them as identical. But I do think actual cultural differences are what make diversity and not whatever country your grandparents emigrated from. Americans are mostly americans and not 1/8 greek and 1/4 danish or whatever. If you don't speak another language, for the most part don't eat different food and have largely the same customs then you're not actually very diverse regardless of whether you can trace your lineage back a few generations.

The US is still almost entirely christian, largely white (and not different kinds either) and English is basically the only language.

That's not really entirely accurate, though. I mean, just the differences between lifestyles in New England, the South, the Midwest, the mountains, the west, etc. alone make us fairly diverse. And where our grandparents are from has an effect on our culture. There's a difference between a largely Italian-American neighborhood and an Irish-American one.

I think Europe is more culturally diverse than us, sure. Because we're one country and Europe isn't. But that doesn't mean there isn't diversity in the US.

Is it really that different? I've lived in pretty much all regions of America except for the South, and while there are some differences, it's nothing major. For the most part, no matter where you go in America, everyone lives in a suburb, mostly in free-standing houses, they drive a car, they shop at the same giant chain stores, and they watch the same TV shows. Going from one European country to another seemed waaaaaay more different.

Yes, going from one country to another. That was kind of my point. We're talking on a national basis. The EU, as recent events prove, is not a country.

OK. Well, my point was that America isn't really as geographically diverse as people like to pretend it is.
The diversity comes from different cultural groups living within the big cities.

You're joking, right? I've lived in three parts of the US (Mid-Atlantic, Southern California, currently live in the Intermountain West) and I can tell you that they are just as dissimilar from each other as they are similar. No, you actually don't shop at the same chains (no Shoprites in SoCal, no Ralph's in the West, and no Albertsons out East, for example,) how you use a car depends very much on the region, and even what shows are popular vary as well. Hell, we can't even agree what to call carbonated soft drinks:

AManFromEarth

AngelHedgie wrote:

Pi-r8 wrote:

AManFromEarth wrote:

Pi-r8 wrote:

AManFromEarth wrote:

Julius wrote:

Spoiler:

Well I wouldn't count them as identical. But I do think actual cultural differences are what make diversity and not whatever country your grandparents emigrated from. Americans are mostly americans and not 1/8 greek and 1/4 danish or whatever. If you don't speak another language, for the most part don't eat different food and have largely the same customs then you're not actually very diverse regardless of whether you can trace your lineage back a few generations.

The US is still almost entirely christian, largely white (and not different kinds either) and English is basically the only language.

That's not really entirely accurate, though. I mean, just the differences between lifestyles in New England, the South, the Midwest, the mountains, the west, etc. alone make us fairly diverse. And where our grandparents are from has an effect on our culture. There's a difference between a largely Italian-American neighborhood and an Irish-American one.

I think Europe is more culturally diverse than us, sure. Because we're one country and Europe isn't. But that doesn't mean there isn't diversity in the US.

Is it really that different? I've lived in pretty much all regions of America except for the South, and while there are some differences, it's nothing major. For the most part, no matter where you go in America, everyone lives in a suburb, mostly in free-standing houses, they drive a car, they shop at the same giant chain stores, and they watch the same TV shows. Going from one European country to another seemed waaaaaay more different.

Yes, going from one country to another. That was kind of my point. We're talking on a national basis. The EU, as recent events prove, is not a country.

OK. Well, my point was that America isn't really as geographically diverse as people like to pretend it is.
The diversity comes from different cultural groups living within the big cities.

You're joking, right? I've lived in three parts of the US (Mid-Atlantic, Southern California, currently live in the Intermountain West) and I can tell you that they are just as dissimilar from each other as they are similar. No, you actually don't shop at the same chains (no Shoprites in SoCal, no Ralph's in the West, and no Albertsons out East, for example,) how you use a car depends very much on the region, and even what shows are popular vary as well. Hell, we can't even agree what to call carbonated soft drinks:

My favorite part of that map is the yellow in Florida showing where the highest concentration of snowbirds is.

Kagera

Hey we have Ralph's in the west.

Squigie

What is with those people in western PA and their "pop"? Didn't they ever learn how to speak English? We even have to have signs in our supermarkets with both "soda" and "pop". Why don't you just move to Ohio, morons? And like 99% of this country doesn't know to make a steak sandwich. How do you people live? And don't call it a "Philly". You say the words "Philly cheesesteak" around here and good people will spit in your face on principle.

Seriously though, forget pride. Didn't you all ever see Pulp Fiction? Complaining is more patriotic than pride. This country was founded by traitors and complainers. Complaining is what made this country great; complaining, and hard work to fix those complaints. It goes, "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." Too many "patriots" today only remember that first part. They say, "Love it or leave it," and in the next breath rally to "Take America back." Sitting around a circle applauding ourselves for being "exceptional" can only accomplish nothing. If Sputnik went up today, our "patriots" would insist it would cost too much money to compete while whining about our declining prominence.

That's not what we did. We actually did something about it. The Russians sent up a satellite, we sent up a better one. They put a man in orbit, we put a man on the moon. We accomplished the unbelievable, not by being exceptional, no, by hard work, big dreams, and lots of exploding rockets. That is patriotism.

poshniallo

Organichu wrote:

poshniallo wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about diversity. Organichu doesn't like a place because it's not diverse enough for him? OK, that's fine.

But as I said before, so what? That seems to have about as much to do with this thread as me enjoying beach holidays when I travel.

i mentioned it because people were doing 'what things do i like and dislike about where i live'. and i responded to a scandinavian poster by saying 'something i don't find attractive about where you live is so and so'.

i don't know why this seems strange.

Yes, and I think there's a huge difference between 'this is what I like about where I live' and 'this is what I don't like about where you live'.

poshniallo

That map about what you like to call fizzy drinks is interesting, but anyone comparing it to the cultural differences between Sweden and Greece should be embarrassed.

Organichu

poshniallo wrote:

Organichu wrote:

poshniallo wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about diversity. Organichu doesn't like a place because it's not diverse enough for him? OK, that's fine.

But as I said before, so what? That seems to have about as much to do with this thread as me enjoying beach holidays when I travel.

i mentioned it because people were doing 'what things do i like and dislike about where i live'. and i responded to a scandinavian poster by saying 'something i don't find attractive about where you live is so and so'.

i don't know why this seems strange.

Yes, and I think there's a huge difference between 'this is what I like about where I live' and 'this is what I don't like about where you live'.

but that was half the thread? plenty of non-americans chimed in on the OP's feelings on america.

i don't think it's a big deal. i'm not trashing the place. i already listed some things i love about scandinavia. i don't think i'm breaking a sacred social convention by tossing in 'but something that i don't like is...' after praising the place.

poshniallo

Organichu wrote:

poshniallo wrote:

Organichu wrote:

poshniallo wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about diversity. Organichu doesn't like a place because it's not diverse enough for him? OK, that's fine.

But as I said before, so what? That seems to have about as much to do with this thread as me enjoying beach holidays when I travel.

i mentioned it because people were doing 'what things do i like and dislike about where i live'. and i responded to a scandinavian poster by saying 'something i don't find attractive about where you live is so and so'.

i don't know why this seems strange.

Yes, and I think there's a huge difference between 'this is what I like about where I live' and 'this is what I don't like about where you live'.

but that was half the thread? plenty of non-americans chimed in on the OP's feelings on america.

i don't think it's a big deal. i'm not trashing the place. i already listed some things i love about scandinavia. i don't think i'm breaking a sacred social convention by tossing in 'but something that i don't like is...' after praising the place.

People trashed spacekungfuman because of his opinions about what was good, not because he liked America.

Organichu

i understand that.

Bagginses

One interesting thing I read recently is that the stereotype of Americans being much more monolingual than Europe may be based on bad data and the fact that America has a greater diversity of second languages (so no group can come to the US and reliably find someone who speaks the same language, while anyone traveling to any other country can expect at least a couple people to speak English).

MentalExercise

poshniallo wrote:

That map about what you like to call fizzy drinks is interesting, but anyone comparing it to the cultural differences between Sweden and Greece should be embarrassed.

I guess it's a good thing nobody's said that then.

poshniallo wrote:

Organichu wrote:

poshniallo wrote:

Organichu wrote:

poshniallo wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about diversity. Organichu doesn't like a place because it's not diverse enough for him? OK, that's fine.

But as I said before, so what? That seems to have about as much to do with this thread as me enjoying beach holidays when I travel.

i mentioned it because people were doing 'what things do i like and dislike about where i live'. and i responded to a scandinavian poster by saying 'something i don't find attractive about where you live is so and so'.

i don't know why this seems strange.

Yes, and I think there's a huge difference between 'this is what I like about where I live' and 'this is what I don't like about where you live'.

but that was half the thread? plenty of non-americans chimed in on the OP's feelings on america.

i don't think it's a big deal. i'm not trashing the place. i already listed some things i love about scandinavia. i don't think i'm breaking a sacred social convention by tossing in 'but something that i don't like is...' after praising the place.

People trashed spacekungfuman because of his opinions about what was good, not because he liked America.

No, people trashed spacekungfuman because they immediately equated, "Man it's nice American CEOs and lawyers work hard and respond promptly," with, "Man it's nice how Americans work themselves to death!" which are not even close to the same statement, and then pages of complaining about how blind patriotism is a bad thing, despite the OP talking about nothing of the sort. Similar to how you insisted on pointing out the great cultural difference between Greece and Sweden despite no one comparing that to the US in any way. Also similar to how everyone is so deathly eager to fight with spacekungfuman about the things he likes about America that they couldn't possibly bear to actually mention something they themselves like. Which is the very thing the OP is talking about. "Man it seems like no one around here ever has a good word for the US, even though it's a pretty great place. Maybe it'd be nice to have a thread where we do that."

So here's something else I'm quite a fan of in the US:

Optimism. Sure sometimes it gets a bit much; a little too rose tinted. And yeah, it sometimes unfortunately promotes being self-centered, which is a bad thing. But we really do tend to raise our kids with the idea that they can do anything they set their minds to. They can change the world. That's a great mindset.

shryke

Actually the OP is pretty clear that he disapproves of non-Americans lack of desire to work lots of unpaid overtime.

AManFromEarth

poshniallo wrote:

That map about what you like to call fizzy drinks is interesting, but anyone comparing it to the cultural differences between Sweden and Greece should be embarrassed.

All the map shows is that we're not culturally monolithic.

I've been living in the UK for a while now, and it's funny that the way Brits see the US is much like we see the UK/Europe. The way you look at the US and just see the Hollywood vision of endless strip malls and fast food restaurants is the way the US looks over here and just sees funny hats, accents, and lots of tea.

Of course it isn't the same as the difference between Sweden and Greece, I don't think anyone would try to say it is. Sweden is a Scandinavian country with an entirely different history and culture to some guys down on the Mediterranean.

But the thing about what we call soda is that it's a handy guide to what is different about the US. It's a fairly good map of the different types of culture within American culture. Of course it's pretty similar, we're the same country but thanks to immigration and the internal moving about of Americans we have distinctly different flavors of Americana depending on where you go.

Anyone who ignores that should be embarrassed. And also should stop being such a goose.

AManFromEarth

shryke wrote:

Actually the OP is pretty clear that he disapproves of non-Americans lack of desire to work lots of unpaid overtime.

He's allowed to have his opinions. We're allowed to have ours.

I'm pretty proud of being American, just as I'm sure everyone else is proud of being from where their from. Doesn't mean we can't see what's wrong with where we're from. But the bad things don't necessarily outweigh the good ones.

Pi-r8

AngelHedgie wrote:

OK. Well, my point was that America isn't really as geographically diverse as people like to pretend it is.
The diversity comes from different cultural groups living within the big cities.

You're joking, right? I've lived in three parts of the US (Mid-Atlantic, Southern California, currently live in the Intermountain West) and I can tell you that they are just as dissimilar from each other as they are similar. No, you actually don't shop at the same chains (no Shoprites in SoCal, no Ralph's in the West, and no Albertsons out East, for example,) how you use a car depends very much on the region, and even what shows are popular vary as well. Hell, we can't even agree what to call carbonated soft drinks:

You're joking, right? Ralph's is a brand owned by Kroger, and Albertson's is owned by SuperValu. Both companies operate supermarkets all over the US, and they're all pretty much the same generic big box food factories.

The colors on that map are also kind of misleading, since what it really says is that most places in the US use multiple words for it, with most places around 50%. With the cities having the most lingual diversity.

But seriously man, this is your idea of a diverse culture? A different logo on the supermarket, and one word being different? Have you ever been to another country? A visitor from Europe probably wouldn't even notice those things, they would just think "wow those Americans all shop at giant supermarkets and drink massive amounts of soft drinks".

spacekungfuman

shryke wrote:

Actually the OP is pretty clear that he disapproves of non-Americans lack of desire to work lots of unpaid overtime.

If you follow through the entire thread, you will see that is not the position I am taking, and I actually amended my position in response to things that came out in the discussion. I recognize lawyers don't get paid in Europe the way they do here, and that the nature of the job is different. But I stand by liking that people I have worked with in America are consistently willing to put the extra effort in when it is needed in extrodinary circumstance. This is especially true of executives, who I consistently see working much harder in America than in Europe. Also, the picky benefits European execs expect are really on a whole other level from US execs in my experience.

Karl

spacekungfuman wrote:

shryke wrote:

Actually the OP is pretty clear that he disapproves of non-Americans lack of desire to work lots of unpaid overtime.

If you follow through the entire thread, you will see that is not the position I am taking, and I actually amended my position in response to things that came out in the discussion. I recognize lawyers don't get paid in Europe the way they do here, and that the nature of the job is different. But I stand by liking that people I have worked with in America are consistently willing to put the extra effort in when it is needed in extrodinary circumstance. This is especially true of executives, who I consistently see working much harder in America than in Europe. Also, the picky benefits European execs expect are really on a whole other level from US execs in my experience.

I think a lot of the differences come down to what we expect as a benefit. What does a US exec expect? And what are employment protection laws like in the States vs Europe? Of course people are going to work harder/put in more hours if its easier to get rid of them and replace them with someone else.

durandal4532

I work 9-7 as a grad student, plus weekends, and It's stupid.

lonelyahava wrote:

Kalkino wrote:

Helsinki did seem pretty homogeneous, but no more than Dunedin, Wellington or Christchurch

Whereas, I have all the colors of the rainbow up here in Auckland.

And all the food too. YESSSS!


As for paying taxes? I worked last winter/summer for 3 months as a temp for a call center. I got paid $17/hour to sit and tell people that they had to pay their bills. A similar job that I had in the states paid me $13/hour after being there 4 years. For 3 months worth of work I made approximately $7k. And I paid just about $1500 of that in taxes to new zealand. And I'm more than ok with that.

Yes, it's a smaller country by far than the US, but still.

The roads are fantastic, even so far out in the boonies that the only other living things around you are birds, the roads are still well maintained. Public transportation is a real thing, and it's viable. I can get to pretty much anywhere in the city that I need to by bus, and it's not too expensive. The healthcare, compared to the states, is amazing. even for me, without insurance and only being on a working holiday visa, my doctor's visit cost less than anything i would have paid in the states. Hell, I thought I had injured my foot the other day, I called the podiatrists office to make an appointment (you don't need a referral down here, you just go to the specialist), and instead of making me an appointment and bringing me in the doctor called me and gave me a free phone consultation.

That, is freaking awesome.

oh and all that stuff about paid leave and maternal leave and things that the dude from sweden said.

My Kiwi brother-in-law came here to look for work when he and my sister were still figuring out if they were going to try living in the states. He was shocked by our roads. Said it looked like we'd been shelled, and he was expecting better from the US.

Also yeah they're still in Sydney because a thriving economy, free health care, maternity leave, vacation, etc outweigh the fact that Australians are kind of annoying.

AngelHedgie

Pi-r8 wrote:

AngelHedgie wrote:

OK. Well, my point was that America isn't really as geographically diverse as people like to pretend it is.
The diversity comes from different cultural groups living within the big cities.

You're joking, right? I've lived in three parts of the US (Mid-Atlantic, Southern California, currently live in the Intermountain West) and I can tell you that they are just as dissimilar from each other as they are similar. No, you actually don't shop at the same chains (no Shoprites in SoCal, no Ralph's in the West, and no Albertsons out East, for example,) how you use a car depends very much on the region, and even what shows are popular vary as well. Hell, we can't even agree what to call carbonated soft drinks:

You're joking, right? Ralph's is a brand owned by Kroger, and Albertson's is owned by SuperValu. Both companies operate supermarkets all over the US, and they're all pretty much the same generic big box food factories.

The colors on that map are also kind of misleading, since what it really says is that most places in the US use multiple words for it, with most places around 50%. With the cities having the most lingual diversity.

But seriously man, this is your idea of a diverse culture? A different logo on the supermarket, and one word being different? Have you ever been to another country? A visitor from Europe probably wouldn't even notice those things, they would just think "wow those Americans all shop at giant supermarkets and drink massive amounts of soft drinks".

Actually, I was just addressing the points you brought up. When I was going to school in SoCal, the artiface of the environment chafed at me - one of my favorite jokes was that at least a New Yorker would have the common decency to stab you in the front. Living in the Intermountain West has been a fish out of water experience, thanks to growing up in the Mid-Atlantic. But to go back to your "Oh, nothing is different in the big boxen" argument, ever try to buy specific ethnic foods in a region where the associated group isn't that common? Even if the food in question isn't even all that ethnic? Because I have, and it can really suck when something that you considered a common staple that is easy to get ceases to be so.

spacekungfuman

AngelHedgie wrote:

Pi-r8 wrote:

AngelHedgie wrote:

OK. Well, my point was that America isn't really as geographically diverse as people like to pretend it is.
The diversity comes from different cultural groups living within the big cities.

You're joking, right? I've lived in three parts of the US (Mid-Atlantic, Southern California, currently live in the Intermountain West) and I can tell you that they are just as dissimilar from each other as they are similar. No, you actually don't shop at the same chains (no Shoprites in SoCal, no Ralph's in the West, and no Albertsons out East, for example,) how you use a car depends very much on the region, and even what shows are popular vary as well. Hell, we can't even agree what to call carbonated soft drinks:

You're joking, right? Ralph's is a brand owned by Kroger, and Albertson's is owned by SuperValu. Both companies operate supermarkets all over the US, and they're all pretty much the same generic big box food factories.

The colors on that map are also kind of misleading, since what it really says is that most places in the US use multiple words for it, with most places around 50%. With the cities having the most lingual diversity.

But seriously man, this is your idea of a diverse culture? A different logo on the supermarket, and one word being different? Have you ever been to another country? A visitor from Europe probably wouldn't even notice those things, they would just think "wow those Americans all shop at giant supermarkets and drink massive amounts of soft drinks".

Actually, I was just addressing the points you brought up. When I was going to school in SoCal, the artiface of the environment chafed at me - one of my favorite jokes was that at least a New Yorker would have the common decency to stab you in the front. Living in the Intermountain West has been a fish out of water experience, thanks to growing up in the Mid-Atlantic. But to go back to your "Oh, nothing is different in the big boxen" argument, ever try to buy specific ethnic foods in a region where the associated group isn't that common? Even if the food in question isn't even all that ethnic? Because I have, and it can really suck when something that you considered a common staple that is easy to get ceases to be so.

I have an Italian friend who moved to the Midwest, and even using oregano was a foreign concept out there. . .

Xaev

spacekungfuman wrote:

AngelHedgie wrote:

Pi-r8 wrote:

AngelHedgie wrote:

OK. Well, my point was that America isn't really as geographically diverse as people like to pretend it is.
The diversity comes from different cultural groups living within the big cities.

You're joking, right? I've lived in three parts of the US (Mid-Atlantic, Southern California, currently live in the Intermountain West) and I can tell you that they are just as dissimilar from each other as they are similar. No, you actually don't shop at the same chains (no Shoprites in SoCal, no Ralph's in the West, and no Albertsons out East, for example,) how you use a car depends very much on the region, and even what shows are popular vary as well. Hell, we can't even agree what to call carbonated soft drinks:

You're joking, right? Ralph's is a brand owned by Kroger, and Albertson's is owned by SuperValu. Both companies operate supermarkets all over the US, and they're all pretty much the same generic big box food factories.

The colors on that map are also kind of misleading, since what it really says is that most places in the US use multiple words for it, with most places around 50%. With the cities having the most lingual diversity.

But seriously man, this is your idea of a diverse culture? A different logo on the supermarket, and one word being different? Have you ever been to another country? A visitor from Europe probably wouldn't even notice those things, they would just think "wow those Americans all shop at giant supermarkets and drink massive amounts of soft drinks".

Actually, I was just addressing the points you brought up. When I was going to school in SoCal, the artiface of the environment chafed at me - one of my favorite jokes was that at least a New Yorker would have the common decency to stab you in the front. Living in the Intermountain West has been a fish out of water experience, thanks to growing up in the Mid-Atlantic. But to go back to your "Oh, nothing is different in the big boxen" argument, ever try to buy specific ethnic foods in a region where the associated group isn't that common? Even if the food in question isn't even all that ethnic? Because I have, and it can really suck when something that you considered a common staple that is easy to get ceases to be so.

I have an Italian friend who moved to the Midwest, and even using oregano was a foreign concept out there. . .

Man, what? I live in Wisconsin and we use oregano all the time.

Now almond paste is something that can be hard to find reliably here.

Tenek

AngelHedgie wrote:

Hell, we can't even agree what to call carbonated soft drinks:

<snip>HI I AM A LARGE IMAGE</snip>

OK, WTF Alaska?

Lucid

MentalExercise wrote:

Also similar to how everyone is so deathly eager to fight with spacekungfuman about the things he likes about America that they couldn't possibly bear to actually mention something they themselves like. Which is the very thing the OP is talking about. "Man it seems like no one around here ever has a good word for the US, even though it's a pretty great place. Maybe it'd be nice to have a thread where we do that."

This is a debate forum, some people like to debate. The OP does not set the rules(as far as I'm aware). This is the second time this has come up in a spacekungfuman thread, simply because the content of his initial posts has been challenged.

spacekungfuman

Lucid wrote:

MentalExercise wrote:

Also similar to how everyone is so deathly eager to fight with spacekungfuman about the things he likes about America that they couldn't possibly bear to actually mention something they themselves like. Which is the very thing the OP is talking about. "Man it seems like no one around here ever has a good word for the US, even though it's a pretty great place. Maybe it'd be nice to have a thread where we do that."

This is a debate forum, some people like to debate. The OP does not set the rules(as far as I'm aware). This is the second time this has come up in a spacekungfuman thread, simply because the content of his initial posts has been challenged.

I respectfully disagree. The etiquette thread spun out of control because of hats, which were not mentioned in the OP. I had originally drafted the OP to this thread without my reasons for patriotism, to avoid the discussion just being about my views, and it was a mistake not too. I have definitely learned my lesson. . .

Casual Eddy

Pi-r8 wrote:

AManFromEarth wrote:

Julius wrote:

Well I wouldn't count them as identical. But I do think actual cultural differences are what make diversity and not whatever country your grandparents emigrated from. Americans are mostly americans and not 1/8 greek and 1/4 danish or whatever. If you don't speak another language, for the most part don't eat different food and have largely the same customs then you're not actually very diverse regardless of whether you can trace your lineage back a few generations.

The US is still almost entirely christian, largely white (and not different kinds either) and English is basically the only language.

That's not really entirely accurate, though. I mean, just the differences between lifestyles in New England, the South, the Midwest, the mountains, the west, etc. alone make us fairly diverse. And where our grandparents are from has an effect on our culture. There's a difference between a largely Italian-American neighborhood and an Irish-American one.

I think Europe is more culturally diverse than us, sure. Because we're one country and Europe isn't. But that doesn't mean there isn't diversity in the US.

Is it really that different? I've lived in pretty much all regions of America except for the South, and while there are some differences, it's nothing major. For the most part, no matter where you go in America, everyone lives in a suburb, mostly in free-standing houses, they drive a car, they shop at the same giant chain stores, and they watch the same TV shows. Going from one European country to another seemed waaaaaay more different.

this... isn't really true at all though. The way people behave and act and even think vary pretty wildly from place to place in the united states.

I honestly think some of you people are just so embarrassed by the united states you think it's homogeneous blend of overweight people eating fast food.

DoctorArch

Hell, the U.S. has major cultural shifts within each state.

Quid

Casual Eddy wrote:

Pi-r8 wrote:

AManFromEarth wrote:

Julius wrote:

Well I wouldn't count them as identical. But I do think actual cultural differences are what make diversity and not whatever country your grandparents emigrated from. Americans are mostly americans and not 1/8 greek and 1/4 danish or whatever. If you don't speak another language, for the most part don't eat different food and have largely the same customs then you're not actually very diverse regardless of whether you can trace your lineage back a few generations.

The US is still almost entirely christian, largely white (and not different kinds either) and English is basically the only language.

That's not really entirely accurate, though. I mean, just the differences between lifestyles in New England, the South, the Midwest, the mountains, the west, etc. alone make us fairly diverse. And where our grandparents are from has an effect on our culture. There's a difference between a largely Italian-American neighborhood and an Irish-American one.

I think Europe is more culturally diverse than us, sure. Because we're one country and Europe isn't. But that doesn't mean there isn't diversity in the US.

Is it really that different? I've lived in pretty much all regions of America except for the South, and while there are some differences, it's nothing major. For the most part, no matter where you go in America, everyone lives in a suburb, mostly in free-standing houses, they drive a car, they shop at the same giant chain stores, and they watch the same TV shows. Going from one European country to another seemed waaaaaay more different.

this... isn't really true at all though. The way people behave and act and even think vary pretty wildly from place to place in the united states.

I honestly think some of you people are just so embarrassed by the united states you think it's homogeneous blend of overweight people eating fast food.

Yeah, I've lived in Texas, Mississippi, Washington, California, and Hawaii. Sometimes in/by the city and other times in a rural area. Some are more similar to others, but I would by no means consider having been to one I've essentially been to the others, especially the cities.

Kalkino

lonelyahava wrote:

Kalkino wrote:

Helsinki did seem pretty homogeneous, but no more than Dunedin, Wellington or Christchurch

Whereas, I have all the colors of the rainbow up here in Auckland.

And all the food too. YESSSS!


As for paying taxes? I worked last winter/summer for 3 months as a temp for a call center. I got paid $17/hour to sit and tell people that they had to pay their bills. A similar job that I had in the states paid me $13/hour after being there 4 years. For 3 months worth of work I made approximately $7k. And I paid just about $1500 of that in taxes to new zealand. And I'm more than ok with that.

Yes, it's a smaller country by far than the US, but still.

The roads are fantastic, even so far out in the boonies that the only other living things around you are birds, the roads are still well maintained. Public transportation is a real thing, and it's viable. I can get to pretty much anywhere in the city that I need to by bus, and it's not too expensive. The healthcare, compared to the states, is amazing. even for me, without insurance and only being on a working holiday visa, my doctor's visit cost less than anything i would have paid in the states. Hell, I thought I had injured my foot the other day, I called the podiatrists office to make an appointment (you don't need a referral down here, you just go to the specialist), and instead of making me an appointment and bringing me in the doctor called me and gave me a free phone consultation.

That, is freaking awesome.

oh and all that stuff about paid leave and maternal leave and things that the dude from sweden said.

It is good to see you've had such a good experience. Migration can be pretty hard