D&D 5e Discussion

DMAC

Kind of non-news so far...

In a move that should surprise no one, WotC is planning a 5th edition of D&D http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/10/arts/video-games/dungeons-dragons-remake-uses-players-input.html?ref=arts

EN World is supposed to have better/more information coming in less than an hour.

DMAC

Another small article on the official site.

DevoutlyApathetic

Yeah, after the "Direct From R&D" thing on the Winter Fantasy schedule this was pretty much expected.

Dextolen

This is the part where I tell you how disappointed I am in WOTC for milking us for another edition, and how I'll never by the new books, and then eagerly await the shiny new Player's Handbook. Honestly, we drop $300 on a new console every 5-6 years, I have come to expect new editions of D&D and welcome them. For one thing, they are getting better at introducing new players and helping new DMs with each edition.

TomeWyrm

DevoutlyApathetic wrote:

Yeah, after the "Direct From R&D" thing on the Winter Fantasy schedule this was pretty much expected.

Their bringing Monte Cook back into the company was another strong hint, I think.

Lord_Asmodeus

How long has it been since they released 4th edition? I honestly don't remember. I mean, it's been a few years right?

Anyway, I'm going to fight this blasphemy tooth and nail (and then love it forever)

tastydonuts

The only thing I want out of the new edition is the return of electronic distribution of the books. ffs.

I am also a little worried about the extent of "player input" involved.

TomeWyrm

Lord_Asmodeus wrote:

How long has it been since they released 4th edition? I honestly don't remember. I mean, it's been a few years right?

Anyway, I'm going to fight this blasphemy tooth and nail (and then love it forever)

2008 I think?

DMAC

The idea that somehow all they have to do is listen to enough input from players/fans and they will somehow produce a product that pleases everybody is... hilarious.

My concern is that unless through some miracle they somehow manage to pull off the above, they're going to split the market even further with Pathfinder players, 4e die hards, and 5e adopters. If they're seeing 4e as something that needs to be "fixed" by more than an update then 5e probably isn't going to be backwards compatible.

RedDawn

I figured a new version was going to be coming mostly because I'm trying to get my friends to play 4E. If they really like it I'm not sure what we are going to do when 5E comes out.

tastydonuts

DMAC wrote:

The idea that somehow all they have to do is listen to enough input from players/fans and they will somehow produce a product that pleases everybody is... hilarious.

My concern is that unless through some miracle they somehow manage to pull off the above, they're going to split the market even further with Pathfinder players, 4e die hards, and 5e adopters. If they're seeing 4e as something that needs to be "fixed" by more than an update then 5e probably isn't going to be backwards compatible.

I still use a lot of my old 3.x monsters and things with some adjustment of course, but I don't think it'd be that much of a incompatibility issue. Unless you're doing sanctioned events. But that's the same scene that played out with 3.xE into 4E, and so forth.

DMAC

RedDawn wrote:

I figured a new version was going to be coming mostly because I'm trying to get my friends to play 4E. If they really like it I'm not sure what we are going to do when 5E comes out.

It's going to depend on how much support there still is for 4e. Will the character builder still be available? There's definitely enough 4e material out there for a lifetime worth of gaming.

I fully admit to being a sucker for "the new" though. I don't doubt for a second that I will buy 5e when it comes out. The ability to draw in new players is probably my biggest concern with 5e. There was a lot of complaining about the "dumbing down" of 4e compered to 3e but I personally loved it. I think that's going to be the hardest balancing act with a new edition: pleasing both newcomers and hardcore rules freaks.

MagicPrime

I was really burned with 4e. And have since switched to Pathfinder.

Unless they show me something with 5e that really wows me beyond belief, I don't see myself switching back. And even if they do I am going to be really hard to buy back -- because I really really really like Pathfinder.

PMAvers

And the least surprising news in the world award goes to...

Eh, I'll probably end up passing again like I did with 4e. Only bought a few of the Essentials books and some Gamma World stuff since nothing else really interested me.

Getting Hackmaster 5e later in the year, though, so it won't be missed.

DMAC

MagicPrime wrote:

I was really burned with 4e. And have since switched to Pathfinder.

Can I ask how you feel you were "burned" by it?

dresdenphile

DMAC wrote:

It's going to depend on how much support there still is for 4e. Will the character builder still be available? There's definitely enough 4e material out there for a lifetime worth of gaming.

That's my main concern about a new edition. I don't want to wake up one morning to discover all my 4E online characters are gone. I'd prefer to not have to turn to dark magicks to get the old offline builder updated.

Vanguard

MagicPrime wrote:

I was really burned with 4e. And have since switched to Pathfinder.

Unless they show me something with 5e that really wows me beyond belief, I don't see myself switching back. And even if they do I am going to be really hard to buy back -- because I really really really like Pathfinder.

I never bought in, but I read the books and decided it wasn't for me. I've since gone to Pathfinder. I don't mind investing in a new RP system every few years, but I see little reason to play competing systems when I know which one I prefer.

That being said, I will read the books. If it looks promising, they may get a purchase out of me, but they need to convince me it will be more fun than Pathfinder.

Mojo_Jojo

So, they seem to be going for some kind of modular approach to the various systems? Perhaps? It's a vague press release but

We want a game that rises above differences of play styles, campaign settings, and editions, one that takes the fundamental essence of D&D and brings it to the forefront of the game. In short, we want a game that is as simple or complex as you please, its action focused on combat, intrigue, and exploration as you desire. We want a game that is unmistakably D&D, but one that can easily become your D&D, the game that you want to run and play.

Seems to imply that.

THESPOOKY

I'm excited. And that seems to be a growing trend. There are a few people who are bitter about this news, but on the overwhelmingly large part, people seem to be pumped for this year of testing.

Mojo_Jojo

I'm super pumped for it, but then again, 4e just didn't ever click for me. I imagine I'd be put out from the short and confused life cycle of 4e if I'd invested in it.

MagicPrime

Because of brand loyalty and company trust I pre-ordered the new system core set. My group stuck with the game for a few months trying the new system, then as we learned more about their release model we realized that we just weren't liking the new system enough to purchase the other volumes of the Players Guides, etc.

It was around this time that we discovered Pathfinder, and switched over to that.

So I trusted WotC to give me a product that me and my friends would enjoy - because they always had in the past. And that's not what we were given. I feel like I was betrayed by WotC to accommodate the least common denominator, and haven't bought another WotC product since.

THESPOOKY

Well, it wasn't that short. Going by the time 3.5 was out before 4 was released, they'll have actually had the same lifespan--but discounting those first three years of 3 might be a little disingenuous.

THESPOOKY

MagicPrime wrote:

Because of brand loyalty and company trust I pre-ordered the new system core set. My group stuck with the game for a few months trying the new system, then as we learned more about their release model we realized that we just weren't liking the new system enough to purchase the other volumes of the Players Guides, etc.

It was around this time that we discovered Pathfinder, and switched over to that.

So I trusted WotC to give me a product that me and my friends would enjoy - because they always had in the past. And that's not what we were given. I feel like I was betrayed by WotC to accommodate the least common denominator, and haven't bought another WotC product since.

That's totally fair, but holding a grudge isn't going to help 5th Edition not be a disappointment to you. You are EXACTLY the kind of person who should be participating in the 5th Ed. process.

Edit: Gah, sorry about the double post. I was pretty sure someone was gonna post between those. *cough*

DMAC

From the D&D Twitter:

On the topic of #ddi: We plan to continue to offer the tools to support 4E. And we're exploring ideas for conversion tools for #dndnext

Nullzone

With regards to speculation for the new game, I have it on good authority that this actually covers a remarkable amount of what they've tried to do with the framework:

http://critical-hits.com/2011/09/20/the-future-of-dd-might-be-its-past/

It was written before any of the press previews, so it's not a direct leak, but the author was apparently very perceptive based on the editorials being done by Mealrs and Cook.

I'm pretty excited, though this news has the side effect of sending me into the dredge I hit every few months, reminding me of the fact that I don't have a local group to play and experiment with.

Edit: Also, hello CF, I lurk a lot

DMAC

I personally feel like 4e combat is far more interesting than 3e/Pathfinder but the system kind of drops the ball when it comes to using magic/skills outside of combat. As someone who generally plays rogues, it was nice to have a variety of powers/options that made combat more interesting than just going toe to toe with an enemy and exchanging attacks. The different movement/flanking/knocking prone/etc. powers in 4e mean that you almost always have something more fun to do than just a basic attack.

Mojo_Jojo

THESPOOKY wrote:

Well, it wasn't that short. Going by the time 3.5 was out before 4 was released, they'll have actually had the same lifespan--but discounting those first three years of 3 might be a little disingenuous.

More than a little really That would be like resetting 4e's lifetime when essentials was released.

Vanguard

DMAC wrote:

I personally feel like 4e combat is far more interesting than 3e/Pathfinder but the system kind of drops the ball when it comes to using magic/skills outside of combat. As someone who generally plays rogues, it was nice to have a variety of powers/options that made combat more interesting than just going toe to toe with an enemy and exchanging attacks. The different movement/flanking/knocking prone/etc. powers in 4e mean that you almost always have something more fun to do than just a basic attack.

I find that Pathfinder combat is just as interesting, but you need to force the players to consider the environment as a factor. Make weather affect combat, have traps set up in a room where they will fight, etc.

SageinaRage

I'm slightly annoyed, mostly because I have yet to play in a 4e game yet, though I did DM one for a while.

I personally feel like 4e combat is far more interesting than 3e/Pathfinder but the system kind of drops the ball when it comes to using magic/skills outside of combat.

Agree wholeheartedly. I'm curious to see what exactly they think needs changing, if they're going to continue with the combat centric route, or if they're going to go back to more general use stuff.

edit:: though I say that, I've played a ton of 3.5 and no pathfinder.

MagicPrime

Now see, I think that 4e combat is boring. Because everything is written out for you. Use this ability -- do X weapon damage and shift an opponent x squares.

It looks dynamic on the grid, with abilities activating and pieces moving all around. But I've played rogues in Pathfinder that do just as much jumping around, flanking, redirecting, feinting, stabbing, etc.

Tox

My only real issue is that the Epic tier of 4e still isn't fully appreciated. They've got a fair bit of support for it, but not a huge swath, and hardly any since Essentials/MM3 updates were made.

I honestly, genuinely expected them to do what they did with 2nd edition AD&D and do a re-release in a year or so, reorganizing and updating everything, with maybe a few new/better rules to help fix what glaring problems 4e still had.

I honestly don't know how I feel about this, besides genuinely surprised and a little annoyed at the speed of turnover (I happen to believe 4e still has several years of good support that could be offered).

I guess my only hope is that my friends and I all end up on the same page regarding our feelings toward 5e. If we all like it we can switch, if none of us like it we can stay with 4e. If it's in the middle, well, damn.

Dextolen

4E made me want to play EVERY class and race. I can't say that about any other edition of D&D. If that part is ported over to 5E I'll be happy.

Tox

Yeah 4e was the first time I actually enjoyed playing a magic user, so that was nice.

Lezta

Tox wrote:

Yeah 4e was the first time I actually enjoyed playing a magic user, so that was nice.

4e was the first time I actually enjoyed playing a non-magic user, so that was nice.

Der Waffle Mous

"I full attack" gets kinda boring after the first fifty times you say it.

DMAC

I know they've said in the past that very few groups wind up playing at epic tier which makes it a pretty niche group to try to release products for.

Forar

I'm curious, but doubt I'll invest heavily.

I got the 4E DMG/MM/PHB set from Amazon and don't regret that. My old Rifts/3E group got a Maptools game going, though we struggled with technical issues and scheduling to make it work. Some asshattery/drama unrelated to the game finally put it down for good last year, but for the year and change that we were playing, it was pretty sweet. Also, Divine Power and Beyond the Grave were fun reads, even if I didn't use them much.

Guess I could see myself buying a similar pack to give it a whirl or at least act as reading material, but the game group I meet with these days has fond memories of White Wolf stuff, currently plays boardgames (Fortune & Glory is AWESOME, btw) and we might glance at some RPG stuff in the coming months, but I'm not sure D&D of any flavour would really grab them. Might be worth a shot if we have some downtime, but with a new edition looming it might be better to sit back and see how that plays out first anyway.

Edit: and as much as I missed some of the 'using magic in creative ways' with reduced spells and lengthy casting times, I loved the balancing between casters and martial classes. Never got into encounters or beyond early Paragon levels, but Heroic and Paragon (what I saw of it) were pretty damned sweet.

Der Waffle Mous

Basically what I'm saying is that I hope they're moving forward, and not resurrecting sacred cows because some people can't get over their verisimilitude/disassociated mechanics/non-gygaxian naturalism/other grognard buzzword.

DMAC

I wonder if there will be some sort of rebirth of the open gaming license. There were problems but that was a pretty major shot in the arm for the industry.

Vanguard

DMAC wrote:

I wonder if there will be some sort of rebirth of the open gaming license. There were problems but that was a pretty major shot in the arm for the industry.

I wouldn't hold my breath. I don't get the sense that WOTC has learned from past mistakes, they're trying to save a brand that has not performed as well as they had hoped. Hence the, "If you liked 4th you'll love it," and the, "If 4th didn't do it for you, you'll love it," marketing campaign that we're already seeing.

MagicPrime

DMAC wrote:

I wonder if there will be some sort of rebirth of the open gaming license. There were problems but that was a pretty major shot in the arm for the industry.

The OGL situation was another reason that added to my feelings towards WotC.