Man. This game is reeeeaaaaalllllyyyyy unfun sometimes.
Edit: Replays from my night. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. I have an idea in my head of a few things I need to be more mindful of, but I'd like to get some outside perspective.
Man. This game is reeeeaaaaalllllyyyyy unfun sometimes.
Edit: Replays from my night. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. I have an idea in my head of a few things I need to be more mindful of, but I'd like to get some outside perspective.
can you mark which of the replays is long games (longer than 10-12 mins)? I don't really have the time to look through all of them and you can learn the most from an analysis of a long game.
I'll have a dash through when I get home in a few hours.
I open 4hellion and then go bombers 3oc, 2rax, 1fact, 1ebay build. He roach rushes after hatch first. I hold and kill 10 drones with the hellions. From there it turns into drop play and "Please oh god let me get this base up I just need to mine some minerals."
Man. This game is reeeeaaaaalllllyyyyy unfun sometimes.
Edit: Replays from my night. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. I have an idea in my head of a few things I need to be more mindful of, but I'd like to get some outside perspective.
can you mark which of the replays is long games (longer than 10-12 mins)? I don't really have the time to look through all of them and you can learn the most from an analysis of a long game.
I'll have a dash through when I get home in a few hours.
Sure. The longer ones are 88985 88986 and 88987. 2 PvPs and a ZvP. In the PvPs I hold off aggression to the point where I think I'm in a position to win and then I lose it in the big engagement. The ZvP I feel like I did a really bad job at getting my 3rd and 4th up quickly enough and then I make a really stupid blink that kinda seals it. Probably should have gotten templar as well. In all three I feel like my scouting is a lot better than it is usually. So that's a plus I guess.
Graahhhh why is PvZ so FUCKING coin-flippy. I hate this fucking matchup. Maybe I should just 4gate every game.
In what way is it coinflippy? I don't feel this way at all about the matchup. There are frustrating things about it, to be sure, but at no point am I really feeling like I have to make a blind guess.
Probably because I don't get hallucinate or go stargate I guess? But even then, it feels like scouting info comes too late if you don't get a scouting probe in during that 5-9 minute stage. The way to respond to fast 3rd + mass roaches is totally different from 2 base muta play, for instance.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
I'm sure these have been mentioned at some point before, but those unit backgrounds are outstanding. This is what's currently on my desktop, but they're all great (for each race).
Probably because I don't get hallucinate or go stargate I guess? But even then, it feels like scouting info comes too late if you don't get a scouting probe in during that 5-9 minute stage. The way to respond to fast 3rd + mass roaches is totally different from 2 base muta play, for instance.
If you FFE, you have to either go +1 zealot pressure off 4 gates, or go stargate. Any other opening is too committal to a specific path and too inflexible.
Your stargate needs to be down by no later than 7:00 after an FFE (forge nexus cannon ffe).
Rally the first voidray to where his third base will be, and make a phoenix afterwards and rallypoint it around his main the same way you would a hallucinated phoenix. If you see a spire building or completed, retreat your units and add a second stargate. if you don't, add a robo and start making Immortals and move to take your third. Focus on sentries and zealots and start getting your ground upgrades, with a twilight council once +1 is done. If he doesn't have a third base, add the robo and a robo bay and go Colossus instead while using the voidray to make sure he doesn't get that third, and using the phoenix to figure out what he's doing off those 2 bases. 2base Colossus will beat anything a Zerg can do from two bases himself except for muta/ling and you can rule that out with the first phoenix.
this way, if he is going muta, you'll see it in time to add a second stargate, if he isn't, your voidray prevents any roach pressure for at least a couple minutes, and by the time he has the roach numbers to ignore the voidray's damage, you should be at around 8 sentries and 2 immortals, which can hold off a hell of a lot of roaches off 3base.
I feel like the problem then becomes that if he's going heavy econ and I just kill like one overlord and nothing else, I'm way behind because I committed to Stargate. Also, I see a vulnerability to certain roach all-in timings while your VR is too far away from your base when they hit. So I mean, that to my mind is just a different sort of coin-flipping. Stargate works well against a certain range of Zerg builds or against Zergs who just plain make mistakes, but what if they play well and go for a build or timing which works well against Stargate?
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
0
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
I feel like the problem then becomes that if he's going heavy econ and I just kill like one overlord and nothing else, I'm way behind because I committed to Stargate. Also, I see a vulnerability to certain roach all-in timings while your VR is too far away from your base when they hit. So I mean, that to my mind is just a different sort of coin-flipping. Stargate works well against a certain range of Zerg builds or against Zergs who just plain make mistakes, but what if they play well and go for a build or timing which works well against Stargate?
You aren't behind because you haven't committed to stargate. If your voidray arrives at his third and sees it completed with a queen and spore defending it, you're still okay. From there you just want to float arund the edges of his base with your voidray sniping overlords and single drones where you can (shiftclick on a drone then queue a movecommand away - unless he has 2 spores and a queen firing at the voidray the whole time, it won't lose more than shields killing a single drone), and this also has the fun side effecto f making him run his queens around his base and potentially miss injects. In the meantime, take an aggressive third base.
The only thing a Zerg can do off a 4:30-5min third is roaches, because his lair is so late from that. And, because his lair is late, so too will his roach speed be a while off. this means you can take a third base with nothing protecting it but a few sentries and zealots, because your voidray controls the entire map.
As for being vulnerable to roach/ling timings, they aren't going to come quickly off a 4-5min third, and his ling speed is going to be extremely late, which means the towers should be yours, as well as having absolute vision over what leaves his base.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I'm not going to pretend stargate openings from an FFE are some magical "win all the time forever no matter what they do" builds, because that doesn't exist unless you're Terran.
However, stargate after FFE is an opening that commits to nothing and gives you all the information you need to make a relatively informed choice.
If a Zerg opens with gas, his third is not going to be any earlier than 6mins, and you can do a lot of damage to that third with a voidray, plus there is no need to take your third until around 12mins, which means you can get some tech up and be safe from all-ins before you get it.
if a Zerg opens without gas, his third is not going to be any later than 5mins if he is trying to take it actively, and if he does take it, roaches are not far behind, and they'll be slowroaches, so the voidray and sentry/immortal defense is going to be fairly impenetrable, which means a third base is safe to take on nearly all maps except for perhaps Xel'Naga.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2012
in a short tl;dr format
Zerg opens with gas either before hatchery or immediately after hatchery -> means he will have more tech options, more options for all-in, but less economy and a later third, and more vulnerability to stargate
Zerg opens without gas until after his third base is down -> he will have to go roaches because nothing else he has will defend any sort of all-in from you, and he will have no map presence due to lack of ling speed and a void ray being on the map, and he has no capability to all-in for a long time, which means you have a good 2-3 minutes to get a third base set up and appropriately defended.
if any zergs want to chime in on this and confirm or disagree with my comments please do so
I open 4hellion and then go bombers 3oc, 2rax, 1fact, 1ebay build. He roach rushes after hatch first. I hold and kill 10 drones with the hellions. From there it turns into drop play and "Please oh god let me get this base up I just need to mine some minerals."
You didn't exactly go bomber's build. Bomber's build has you building the third OC before adding the ebay and second rax, and planting it as soon as possible. You started it after, 2-3 mins later.
Also, it must be really demoralizing to that zerg getting man handled in a 26 min game by a Terran that never got combat shields.
Thanks for all the tips Dhal... I will give it a try.
Edit: I guess one more question... what if I can't scout if he's going for a third, or what he's doing at all? This is where I have trouble, in that time of the game where ideally you'd be checking shit with your scouting probe, but can't because they found it and killed it with lings.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
I open 4hellion and then go bombers 3oc, 2rax, 1fact, 1ebay build. He roach rushes after hatch first. I hold and kill 10 drones with the hellions. From there it turns into drop play and "Please oh god let me get this base up I just need to mine some minerals."
You didn't exactly go bomber's build. Bomber's build has you building the third OC before adding the ebay and second rax, and planting it as soon as possible.
Also, it must be really demoralizing to that zerg getting man handled in a 26 min game by a Terran that never got combat shields.
I open 4hellion and then go bombers 3oc, 2rax, 1fact, 1ebay build. He roach rushes after hatch first. I hold and kill 10 drones with the hellions. From there it turns into drop play and "Please oh god let me get this base up I just need to mine some minerals."
You didn't exactly go bomber's build. Bomber's build has you building the third OC before adding the ebay and second rax, and planting it as soon as possible. Started it after, 2-3 mins later.
Also, it must be really demoralizing to that zerg getting man handled in a 26 min game by a Terran that never got combat shields.
His build isn't set it stone, I feel too weak if I dont get that ebay and 2nd rax out before that third cc, so I wait a minute before the CC comes out.
0
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
that still falls under the build detailed by day9
the whole point was it doesn't matter how you get there. he showed bomber doing different things too.
Thanks for all the tips Dhal... I will give it a try.
Edit: I guess one more question... what if I can't scout if he's going for a third, or what he's doing at all? This is where I have trouble, in that time of the game where ideally you'd be checking shit with your scouting probe, but can't because they found it and killed it with lings.
I feel that you don't need to see anything between your probe dying and the voidray reaching his third. A stargate + a couple sentries + 2 cannons + good reaction times means you're pretty much safe from any bust involving banelings or roaches. The most important thing to know in PvZ after you FFE is "does he have gas" and "did he get a third", and your probe can always answer the first question and your voidray can always answer the second.
If you can manage to keep your probe alive and hidden and socut the third base earlier, thats an awesome bonus, and saves you bothering with sending the voidray directly to the third - instead you can just kill the overlords around your base first and clear the towers before you go to their main to force spores there.
Thanks for all the tips Dhal... I will give it a try.
Edit: I guess one more question... what if I can't scout if he's going for a third, or what he's doing at all? This is where I have trouble, in that time of the game where ideally you'd be checking shit with your scouting probe, but can't because they found it and killed it with lings.
I feel that you don't need to see anything between your probe dying and the voidray reaching his third. A stargate + a couple sentries + 2 cannons + good reaction times means you're pretty much safe from any bust involving banelings or roaches. The most important thing to know in PvZ after you FFE is "does he have gas" and "did he get a third", and your probe can always answer the first question and your voidray can always answer the second.
If you can manage to keep your probe alive and hidden and socut the third base earlier, thats an awesome bonus, and saves you bothering with sending the voidray directly to the third - instead you can just kill the overlords around your base first and clear the towers before you go to their main to force spores there.
All right.
This will take some practice.
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2012
Try aggressively taking your third anytime you see a third base from Zerg, and just building 2-3 cannons immediately as soon as a pylon finishes there, then parking your army somewhere where it can defend it relatively easily. You'll be surprised how easily you can defend it even taking it at 9-10mins.
its also a lot easier to identify where you went wrong if you take your third baseat 9mins and get crushed - you can say "okay maybe take it at 10mins with one more Immortal done".
If you take your expansion too late and get rolled over by superior numbers, its a lot harder to pinpoint the real cause of why you lost.
Dhalphir on
0
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
Posts
Easy there, spanishiwa.
Turns out you only need 1 queen and overlord speed to spread creep.
http://drop.sc/88953#
This terrified me when I saw it. The entire map... just gone. How can I ever play Starcraft again with this sort of horror going on!?
Another 1rax fe into 2rax/2fac TvP. This time I dove harder into the mech. It lists the map wrong, it's really TDA.
Edit: Replays from my night. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. I have an idea in my head of a few things I need to be more mindful of, but I'd like to get some outside perspective.
http://drop.sc/88987
http://drop.sc/88986
http://drop.sc/88985
http://drop.sc/88984
http://drop.sc/88982
Its OK. Without losers, who would the winners look down on
:P
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
can you mark which of the replays is long games (longer than 10-12 mins)? I don't really have the time to look through all of them and you can learn the most from an analysis of a long game.
I'll have a dash through when I get home in a few hours.
Good TvZ.
Sure. The longer ones are 88985 88986 and 88987. 2 PvPs and a ZvP. In the PvPs I hold off aggression to the point where I think I'm in a position to win and then I lose it in the big engagement. The ZvP I feel like I did a really bad job at getting my 3rd and 4th up quickly enough and then I make a really stupid blink that kinda seals it. Probably should have gotten templar as well. In all three I feel like my scouting is a lot better than it is usually. So that's a plus I guess.
In what way is it coinflippy? I don't feel this way at all about the matchup. There are frustrating things about it, to be sure, but at no point am I really feeling like I have to make a blind guess.
For those not in the know.
Zerg: http://imgur.com/a/g3zHG
Terran: http://imgur.com/a/7f4f9
Protoss: http://imgur.com/a/TBgtc
If you FFE, you have to either go +1 zealot pressure off 4 gates, or go stargate. Any other opening is too committal to a specific path and too inflexible.
Your stargate needs to be down by no later than 7:00 after an FFE (forge nexus cannon ffe).
Rally the first voidray to where his third base will be, and make a phoenix afterwards and rallypoint it around his main the same way you would a hallucinated phoenix. If you see a spire building or completed, retreat your units and add a second stargate. if you don't, add a robo and start making Immortals and move to take your third. Focus on sentries and zealots and start getting your ground upgrades, with a twilight council once +1 is done. If he doesn't have a third base, add the robo and a robo bay and go Colossus instead while using the voidray to make sure he doesn't get that third, and using the phoenix to figure out what he's doing off those 2 bases. 2base Colossus will beat anything a Zerg can do from two bases himself except for muta/ling and you can rule that out with the first phoenix.
this way, if he is going muta, you'll see it in time to add a second stargate, if he isn't, your voidray prevents any roach pressure for at least a couple minutes, and by the time he has the roach numbers to ignore the voidray's damage, you should be at around 8 sentries and 2 immortals, which can hold off a hell of a lot of roaches off 3base.
You aren't behind because you haven't committed to stargate. If your voidray arrives at his third and sees it completed with a queen and spore defending it, you're still okay. From there you just want to float arund the edges of his base with your voidray sniping overlords and single drones where you can (shiftclick on a drone then queue a movecommand away - unless he has 2 spores and a queen firing at the voidray the whole time, it won't lose more than shields killing a single drone), and this also has the fun side effecto f making him run his queens around his base and potentially miss injects. In the meantime, take an aggressive third base.
The only thing a Zerg can do off a 4:30-5min third is roaches, because his lair is so late from that. And, because his lair is late, so too will his roach speed be a while off. this means you can take a third base with nothing protecting it but a few sentries and zealots, because your voidray controls the entire map.
As for being vulnerable to roach/ling timings, they aren't going to come quickly off a 4-5min third, and his ling speed is going to be extremely late, which means the towers should be yours, as well as having absolute vision over what leaves his base.
However, stargate after FFE is an opening that commits to nothing and gives you all the information you need to make a relatively informed choice.
If a Zerg opens with gas, his third is not going to be any earlier than 6mins, and you can do a lot of damage to that third with a voidray, plus there is no need to take your third until around 12mins, which means you can get some tech up and be safe from all-ins before you get it.
if a Zerg opens without gas, his third is not going to be any later than 5mins if he is trying to take it actively, and if he does take it, roaches are not far behind, and they'll be slowroaches, so the voidray and sentry/immortal defense is going to be fairly impenetrable, which means a third base is safe to take on nearly all maps except for perhaps Xel'Naga.
Zerg opens with gas either before hatchery or immediately after hatchery -> means he will have more tech options, more options for all-in, but less economy and a later third, and more vulnerability to stargate
Zerg opens without gas until after his third base is down -> he will have to go roaches because nothing else he has will defend any sort of all-in from you, and he will have no map presence due to lack of ling speed and a void ray being on the map, and he has no capability to all-in for a long time, which means you have a good 2-3 minutes to get a third base set up and appropriately defended.
if any zergs want to chime in on this and confirm or disagree with my comments please do so
Also, it must be really demoralizing to that zerg getting man handled in a 26 min game by a Terran that never got combat shields.
Edit: I guess one more question... what if I can't scout if he's going for a third, or what he's doing at all? This is where I have trouble, in that time of the game where ideally you'd be checking shit with your scouting probe, but can't because they found it and killed it with lings.
Doesn't matter 3/3.
His build isn't set it stone, I feel too weak if I dont get that ebay and 2nd rax out before that third cc, so I wait a minute before the CC comes out.
the whole point was it doesn't matter how you get there. he showed bomber doing different things too.
I feel that you don't need to see anything between your probe dying and the voidray reaching his third. A stargate + a couple sentries + 2 cannons + good reaction times means you're pretty much safe from any bust involving banelings or roaches. The most important thing to know in PvZ after you FFE is "does he have gas" and "did he get a third", and your probe can always answer the first question and your voidray can always answer the second.
If you can manage to keep your probe alive and hidden and socut the third base earlier, thats an awesome bonus, and saves you bothering with sending the voidray directly to the third - instead you can just kill the overlords around your base first and clear the towers before you go to their main to force spores there.
All right.
This will take some practice.
its also a lot easier to identify where you went wrong if you take your third baseat 9mins and get crushed - you can say "okay maybe take it at 10mins with one more Immortal done".
If you take your expansion too late and get rolled over by superior numbers, its a lot harder to pinpoint the real cause of why you lost.
we can't have people saying anything other than terran is op
it upsets the balance of the universe
reality has a zerg bias
but I've actually been working on a roach speed rush off three hatch, so far it seems pretty good and will ruin your face with that zealot push
god if MC leenock don't make it through, I'm going to be so sad T T
but
yeah I don't do zealot pressure. Its stronger than stargates offensively but weaker defensively, and I don't like that tradeoff.
This is not KPOP