Magic: the Gathering: Cardboard Crack

Chen

holy mother of god

Spoiler:

It's not the worst of the cycle? Praise be!

Vyolynce

Hey you can get a similar effect every turn out of a RR planeswalker.

But yes, that's a very solid effect on a land.

Chen

The land works better with Miracle though. Speaking of Miracle, the draw/discard of the land is one effect, so if I draw a Miracle card, I have to reveal it, then discard, then pay the mana?

What if I draw it with Desperate Ravings? Reveal first card, draw second card, don't hide the miracle card, discard a card at random with a dice, then pay the Miracle cost if I don't discard the Miracle card I revealed?

Holy clusterfuck, Batman.

Vyolynce

I can't be certain until I see the actual comp. rules for Miracle (one of my friends said they were up but I can't find them right now), but I think it depends on whether or not the card gets exiled. If it uses the same template as madness currently does, it would read like this:

“Madness [cost]” means “If a player would discard this card, that player discards it, but may exile it instead of putting it into his or her graveyard” and “When this card is exiled this way, its owner may cast it by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If that player doesn’t, he or she puts this card into his or her graveyard.”

Where you substitute "Miracle" for "Madness", "draw" for "discard", "hand" for "graveyard", and add the "first card drawn this turn" clause somewhere.

I want to think this is how it's going to be templated, because any other way just invites all manner of chicanery.

Speaking of Miracles, here's another mythic miracle:

Bonfire of the Damned XXR
Sorcery - Mythic

This deals X damage to target player and to each creature he/she controls.

Miracle XR

That's a spicy meatball. And perfectly playable without Miracle (for maybe X = 2).

Forar

Maybe R&D is tired about hearing how they print "nothing but $50 planeswalkers" so they decided to lowball one and see what happens?

I kid. Mostly. If Tibalt is a reasonable price I might snag one at some point just for the hell of it.

Edit: I am perfectly aware that WOTC has essentially no control over how batshit crazy the community can be when it comes to card pricing, before anyone bothers to point that out.

Vyolynce

I think they just decided to see what a 2-mana PW could look like and not be utterly, utterly broken.

Griswold

Vyolynce wrote: »

I think they just decided to see what a 2-mana PW could look like and not be utterly, utterly broken.

Mugaaz

Not only is it not broken, its straight up unplayable and good in virtually nothing. His +1 should have been ping target player. Then at least hes similiar to a luminarch ascension style card for mono red vs control.

ZeroCow

He'll be good in my binder, I really like the art, but other than that...yeah.

silence1186

So I guess the answer to "can you make a good 2 mana planeswalker" is "no."

Vyolynce

Hey, Tybalt is the best 2-mana planeswalker ever made. Also: the worst.

Chen

The irony is that a blue walker would have probably gotten away with a straight up looter effect.

He's still not that bad though. Could possibly be a one-of in sideboards against u/b control since it dodges counterspells on the play and laughs at tragic slips.

Forar

Well, the last time they experimented with the Planeswalker layout, we got a 3 4 CC one with 4 abilities who broke the $100 barrier and warped formats. (edit: okay, and Garruk the flipper)

I'm okay with them experimenting more using slightly less ambitious starting points.

I believe there's been an article discussing their thoughts on a 1 mana planeswalker, or uncommon/common ones and how that might work out.

This one being a bit lacklustre just means they might be able to push the envelope a little harder next time around.

Vyolynce

Forar wrote: »

Well, the last time they experimented with the Planeswalker layout, we got a 3 CC one with 4 abilities who broke the $100 barrier and warped formats.

JTMS costs 2UU.

And if you want to be picky, the last time they experimented with the PW layout we got one with two faces and five abilities for 4 mana.

Forar

Vyolynce wrote: »

Forar wrote: »

Well, the last time they experimented with the Planeswalker layout, we got a 3 CC one with 4 abilities who broke the $100 barrier and warped formats.

JTMS costs 2UU.

And if you want to be picky, the last time they experimented with the PW layout we got one with two faces and five abilities for 4 mana.

That's right, I'm thinking of Beleran.

You've got me there. At a glance it seems Garruk has gone down to around $10-12. I guess I can be thankful for that much at least. Liliana is under $30 too? Hrm, maybe I'll be able to justify picking some of these up next year as long as we don't see a deck break them wide open again.

Chen

To be fair, JTMS was $25-50 for the longest time when Jund was legal. Turns out a 3/2 haste man that does three damage and makes you discard two cards helps to kill it 99% of the time. It also turns out that four 1/1 fliers with one card and a 1/2 that fetches and drops a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker that you can infinitely recast were a bit much.

Vyolynce

Chen wrote: »

To be fair, JTMS was $25-50 for the longest time when Jund was legal. Turns out a 3/2 haste man that does three damage and makes you discard two cards helps to kill it 99% of the time.

It wasn't just Blightning, either. Cascading into Maelstrom Pulse got the job done fairly often too.

Feral

"Turkson wrote: »

It's another infinite combo piece for Ghave Commander decks.

Man, Turkson, you need to get out of my head.

Vyolynce

OK, found the relevant CR quote for Miracle (buried in a thread on WotC's forums). You don't exile it (as with madness; probably because that would interfere with any other "when you draw a card" triggers?), but you do reveal it when you draw it if you'd like to Miracle it, which is what puts the Miracle trigger on the stack. If you don't reveal it you lose your chance for a Miracle. It stays revealed until the trigger resolves, so anything like Desperate Ravings will have the card revealed in your hand while it finishes resolving.

Gonna have to use a die to determine which card is selected in that case, which a lot of people do anyway.

Gandalf_the_Crazed

Vyolynce wrote: »

OK, found the relevant CR quote for Miracle (buried in a thread on WotC's forums). You don't exile it (as with madness; probably because that would interfere with any other "when you draw a card" triggers?), but you do reveal it when you draw it if you'd like to Miracle it, which is what puts the Miracle trigger on the stack. If you don't reveal it you lose your chance for a Miracle. It stays revealed until the trigger resolves, so anything like Desperate Ravings will have the card revealed in your hand while it finishes resolving.

Gonna have to use a die to determine which card is selected in that case, which a lot of people do anyway.

Easier way: When you draw it, reveal it to the player and state your intention to Miracle-cast. Then shuffle it into your hand and let them pick normally, without need of a die. Then, assuming you didn't lose the Miracle, cast it.

Vyolynce

Gandalf_the_Crazed wrote: »

Vyolynce wrote: »

OK, found the relevant CR quote for Miracle (buried in a thread on WotC's forums). You don't exile it (as with madness; probably because that would interfere with any other "when you draw a card" triggers?), but you do reveal it when you draw it if you'd like to Miracle it, which is what puts the Miracle trigger on the stack. If you don't reveal it you lose your chance for a Miracle. It stays revealed until the trigger resolves, so anything like Desperate Ravings will have the card revealed in your hand while it finishes resolving.

Gonna have to use a die to determine which card is selected in that case, which a lot of people do anyway.

Easier way: When you draw it, reveal it to the player and state your intention to Miracle-cast. Then shuffle it into your hand and let them pick normally, without need of a die. Then, assuming you didn't lose the Miracle, cast it.

That gets easier right up to the point where I have another copy of the Miracle in my hand when I draw the other one, at which point the opportunity to cheat skyrockets.

Gandalf_the_Crazed

Hrm. Good point.

Forar

Luckily, not a problem in EDH. /smugcasual

Taramoor

Gandalf_the_Crazed wrote: »

Vyolynce wrote: »

OK, found the relevant CR quote for Miracle (buried in a thread on WotC's forums). You don't exile it (as with madness; probably because that would interfere with any other "when you draw a card" triggers?), but you do reveal it when you draw it if you'd like to Miracle it, which is what puts the Miracle trigger on the stack. If you don't reveal it you lose your chance for a Miracle. It stays revealed until the trigger resolves, so anything like Desperate Ravings will have the card revealed in your hand while it finishes resolving.

Gonna have to use a die to determine which card is selected in that case, which a lot of people do anyway.

Easier way: When you draw it, reveal it to the player and state your intention to Miracle-cast. Then shuffle it into your hand and let them pick normally, without need of a die. Then, assuming you didn't lose the Miracle, cast it.

I would figure the card never enters your hand.

You reveal it and cast it for its miracle cost in a single action at the moment of draw OR you add it to your hand. Saying you can discard it after you've announced your intention to cast it is like saying if I have two cards in hand and cast fireball my opponent can counter it by playing Esper Charm.

Gandalf_the_Crazed

Taramoor wrote: »

Gandalf_the_Crazed wrote: »

Vyolynce wrote: »

OK, found the relevant CR quote for Miracle (buried in a thread on WotC's forums). You don't exile it (as with madness; probably because that would interfere with any other "when you draw a card" triggers?), but you do reveal it when you draw it if you'd like to Miracle it, which is what puts the Miracle trigger on the stack. If you don't reveal it you lose your chance for a Miracle. It stays revealed until the trigger resolves, so anything like Desperate Ravings will have the card revealed in your hand while it finishes resolving.

Gonna have to use a die to determine which card is selected in that case, which a lot of people do anyway.

Easier way: When you draw it, reveal it to the player and state your intention to Miracle-cast. Then shuffle it into your hand and let them pick normally, without need of a die. Then, assuming you didn't lose the Miracle, cast it.

I would figure the card never enters your hand.

You reveal it and cast it for its miracle cost in a single action at the moment of draw OR you add it to your hand. Saying you can discard it after you've announced your intention to cast it is like saying if I have two cards in hand and cast fireball my opponent can counter it by playing Esper Charm.

The problem is that with something like Desperate Ravings, the "draw + discard" effect is atomic -- nothing else can happen in the middle of it, only before or after it.

Terrendos

Yeah I read the "draw" trigger as occurring basically entirely in the midst of a spell like Desperate Ravings. So you would cast the spell and it never really goes into your hand, so you can't discard it.

Taramoor

Gandalf_the_Crazed wrote: »

Taramoor wrote: »

Gandalf_the_Crazed wrote: »

Vyolynce wrote: »

OK, found the relevant CR quote for Miracle (buried in a thread on WotC's forums). You don't exile it (as with madness; probably because that would interfere with any other "when you draw a card" triggers?), but you do reveal it when you draw it if you'd like to Miracle it, which is what puts the Miracle trigger on the stack. If you don't reveal it you lose your chance for a Miracle. It stays revealed until the trigger resolves, so anything like Desperate Ravings will have the card revealed in your hand while it finishes resolving.

Gonna have to use a die to determine which card is selected in that case, which a lot of people do anyway.

Easier way: When you draw it, reveal it to the player and state your intention to Miracle-cast. Then shuffle it into your hand and let them pick normally, without need of a die. Then, assuming you didn't lose the Miracle, cast it.

I would figure the card never enters your hand.

You reveal it and cast it for its miracle cost in a single action at the moment of draw OR you add it to your hand. Saying you can discard it after you've announced your intention to cast it is like saying if I have two cards in hand and cast fireball my opponent can counter it by playing Esper Charm.

The problem is that with something like Desperate Ravings, the "draw + discard" effect is atomic -- nothing else can happen in the middle of it, only before or after it.

But if that's true, then it could flow like this:

Draw a card. ("It's a Miracle! I'm saved!")
Reveal card. "You may play this for its miracle cost" Trigger goes on stack
In response, Opponent plays any ability or instant which forces you to discard.
Miracle is lost... sadface.

Which seems to defeat the entire purpose of the mechanic.

Gandalf_the_Crazed

Taramoor wrote: »

Gandalf_the_Crazed wrote: »

Taramoor wrote: »

Gandalf_the_Crazed wrote: »

Vyolynce wrote: »

OK, found the relevant CR quote for Miracle (buried in a thread on WotC's forums). You don't exile it (as with madness; probably because that would interfere with any other "when you draw a card" triggers?), but you do reveal it when you draw it if you'd like to Miracle it, which is what puts the Miracle trigger on the stack. If you don't reveal it you lose your chance for a Miracle. It stays revealed until the trigger resolves, so anything like Desperate Ravings will have the card revealed in your hand while it finishes resolving.

Gonna have to use a die to determine which card is selected in that case, which a lot of people do anyway.

Easier way: When you draw it, reveal it to the player and state your intention to Miracle-cast. Then shuffle it into your hand and let them pick normally, without need of a die. Then, assuming you didn't lose the Miracle, cast it.

I would figure the card never enters your hand.

You reveal it and cast it for its miracle cost in a single action at the moment of draw OR you add it to your hand. Saying you can discard it after you've announced your intention to cast it is like saying if I have two cards in hand and cast fireball my opponent can counter it by playing Esper Charm.

The problem is that with something like Desperate Ravings, the "draw + discard" effect is atomic -- nothing else can happen in the middle of it, only before or after it.

But if that's true, then it could flow like this:

Draw a card. ("It's a Miracle! I'm saved!")
Reveal card. "You may play this for its miracle cost" Trigger goes on stack
In response, Opponent plays any ability or instant which forces you to discard.
Miracle is lost... sadface.

Which seems to defeat the entire purpose of the mechanic.

Nah, it goes like this:

Draw a card. It's a miracle!
Reveal card as it's drawn. Unfortunately, we're still in the middle of an ability resolution, so nothing can go on the stack until it's resolved.
Discard a card. Desperate Ravings is now fully resolved, and the miracle-cast immediately goes on the stack.
(At this point, the opponent -- as you suggest -- could play a discard effect on you, but since the miracle-cast is already on the stack, it can't disappear in that way.)

The way you're proposing it be done would have us halfway-resolving the Desperate Ravings effect, then leaving it unfinished and coming back to it later. AFAIK, such a method would be unprecedented in MtG.

Taramoor

Nevermind, here's the relevant stuff.

702.91. Miracle


702.91a Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability (see rule 603.10). "Miracle [cost]" means "You may reveal this card from your hand as you draw it if it's the first card you've drawn this turn. When you reveal this card this way, you may cast it by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost."


702.91b If a player chooses to reveal a card using its miracle ability, he or she plays with that card revealed until that card leaves his or her hand, that ability resolves, or that ability otherwise leaves the stack.

So it does enter your hand.

Vyolynce

As I speculated, it goes into your hand because it has to; anything else looking for "whenever you/an opponent/a player draws a card" (Underworld Dreams, Spiteful Visions, Psychosis Crawler) needs to see the event completed.

Taramoor

Vyolynce wrote: »

As I speculated, it goes into your hand because it has to; anything else looking for "whenever you/an opponent/a player draws a card" (Underworld Dreams, Spiteful Visions, Psychosis Crawler) needs to see the event completed.

I guess I was just thinking they would do something crazy because otherwise your miracle card is exceptionally vulnerable to discard, which seems counter to the intent of the mechanic.

Oh well, can't change the rules just because I don't like them.

Forar

At a glance through the cards, on the up side, there aren't many discard effects that are instant cards.

Most creature abilities are done during your turn/at Sorcery speed.

The most likely place this could come up are sacrifice effects at instant speed and using them on creatures that have a "when ~ dies, players/opponents/etc discard card(s)" ability.

Edit: I know there are exceptions. I'm just saying in general.

Vyolynce

Forar wrote: »

At a glance through the cards, on the up side, there aren't many discard effects that are instant cards.

Most creature abilities are done during your turn/at Sorcery speed.

The most likely place this could come up are sacrifice effects at instant speed and using them on creatures that have a "when ~ dies, players/opponents/etc discard card(s)" ability.

Edit: I know there are exceptions. I'm just saying in general.

Right. This is done for a reason, especially on activated abilities. Being able to reliably make someone with an empty hand ("hellbent," as the Ravnican term goes) discard the card they drew during their draw step (i.e., before they enter their main phase and can use anything that isn't an instant) is sad times.

Taramoor

Vyolynce wrote: »

Forar wrote: »

At a glance through the cards, on the up side, there aren't many discard effects that are instant cards.

Most creature abilities are done during your turn/at Sorcery speed.

The most likely place this could come up are sacrifice effects at instant speed and using them on creatures that have a "when ~ dies, players/opponents/etc discard card(s)" ability.

Edit: I know there are exceptions. I'm just saying in general.

Right. This is done for a reason, especially on activated abilities. Being able to reliably make someone with an empty hand ("hellbent," as the Ravnican term goes) discard the card they drew during their draw step (i.e., before they enter their main phase and can use anything that isn't an instant) is sad times.

Imagine how much extra sad those times would be if you drew a Miracle and... awww....

Especially that Bonfire one that noone is certain is real yet because WotC isn't that nice to Red.

Spoiler:

Chen

Bonfire of the Damned is truthfully a really underwhelming card. Terrible waste of a mythic slot. The whole point of Miracle is that you can sometimes get lucky in your draw step and get a big upside, but Bonfire doesn't really do that t1-4 and it's just a Fireball against control and combo decks. It's way too slow and expensive when paying its normal cost, so it's pretty much dead in your hand against aggro decks too. Not even EDH worthy. It's a limited bomb, but that's about it.

By the way, thanks, Vyolynce for the rules clarification.

Vyolynce

You shouldn't need a miracle on turns 1-4.

And it's definitely real; LSV previewed it on Channel Fireball.

Taramoor

Chen wrote: »

Bonfire of the Damned is truthfully a really underwhelming card. Terrible waste of a mythic slot. The whole point of Miracle is that you can sometimes get lucky in your draw step and get a big upside, but Bonfire doesn't really do that t1-4 and it's just a Fireball against control and combo decks. It's way too slow and expensive when paying its normal cost, so it's pretty much dead in your hand against aggro decks too. Not even EDH worthy. It's a limited bomb, but that's about it.

By the way, thanks, Vyolynce for the rules clarification.

If they have more than one creature it is absolutely better than Fireball.

Fireball is XR and deals X damage, divided evenly, rounded down, among any number of legal targets. It can be a big hit against your opponent or one of his creatures.

Bonfire is XXR and deals X damage, period, to your opponent and all of their creatures. It's a non-targeting board sweeper for Red, particularly in a token-heavy environment. (Assuming you can target the opposing player). Even without the Miracle cost it's not bad for a big burn deck.

If you pull it as a Miracle late game you can hit everything on the board with the power of a Fireball. I think that could be pretty huge and really makes the Miracle idea work.

Chen

Yeah, but I'm kind of being a math nerd here. If you draw a Miracle card and it's not played immediately for decent to huge benefits the majority of the time, it's not worth it in my book. Let's say you draw it early and your opponent only has a bear, do you spend three mana and a card, thus your entire turn, to kill that bear and deal two damage to your opponent? It's better than drawing and having an expensive spell in your hand I suppose, but both situations don't seem ideal to me.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is you're reliant on your opponent to fill his/her board for it to be any good, whereas a Time Walk or a Lava Axe for one mana is always welcome.

Taramoor

Chen wrote: »

Yeah, but I'm kind of being a math nerd here. If you draw a Miracle card and it's not played immediately for decent to huge benefits the majority of the time, it's not worth it in my book. Let's say you draw it early and your opponent only has a bear, do you spend three mana and a card, thus your entire turn, to kill that bear and deal three damage to your opponent? It's better than drawing and having an expensive spell in your hand I suppose, but both situations don't seem ideal to me.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is you're reliant on your opponent to fill his/her board for it to be any good, whereas a Time Walk or a Lava Axe for one mana is always welcome.

True, but late game Bonfire retains a lot of utility even if you pull it early or have it in your opening hand. It's not ideal, but it's not a seven mana extra turn (which, honestly, if you're blowing all that mana you're just getting an extra attack phase because you aren't casting much else that turn) or a six-mana lava axe, both of which would be eating up hand space. The only instance in which it's not better than Fireball or Blaze is when your opponent doesn't have any creatures on the board or can't be targeted.

Chen

The question is: Who plays Fireballs in standard? Havengul Lich? It really only fits in ramp type decks and for them damage to player isn't too relevant. Might as well play Slagstorm which is cheaper and more reliable and use Wolf Run to finish the job.