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Magic: the Gathering: Cardboard Crack

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Posts

  • VyolynceVyolynce Registered User regular
    Terrendos wrote: »
    1. I think you can take damage and then regenerate.

    Not quite. You have to do so after blockers have been declared (and ordered, if necessary) but before the damage is actually dealt.

    Regeneration is best thought of as a kind of shield (not unlike Protection from X); you have to put it up before you actually get hit or it doesn't work that well.

  • NullzoneNullzone Tabletop [E] Registered User regular
    You could "take damage" and then regenerate when combat damage was on the stack, since Regeneration would be LIFO, but today you'd have to use it after blockers are declared but before damage is dealt

    It's like a shield rather than a "bring back to life" mechanism.

    Edit: Blah I didn't see the new page, beaten by Vyolynce >_>

    Nullzone on
  • VyolynceVyolynce Registered User regular
    To be fair, the new page was there when I went to quote and then disappeared when I went to check it. Something went weird, I guess.

  • peacekeeperpeacekeeper Brisbane, AustraliaRegistered User regular
    so mana leak is too good? i dont like control but i dont think thats true

  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    so mana leak is too good? i dont like control but i dont think thats true

    Mana Leak can shut down a player for the first few rounds until they can keep enough land free, and the threat of it is like a mini Trinisphere if you aren't running a cheap deck. Combine it with something like Snapcaster and it creates a situation where "Why bother playing" is a legitimate question. I think counterspells are important but the sheer power they have at any point in the game can be incredibly difficult to balance.

    TARA.gif Click for Steam Profile. WiiU ID: Taramoor
  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    Kelor wrote: »
    Terrendos wrote: »
    Do you guys think there is the slightest chance that a deck built around getting out Tyrant of Discord quickly and then flickering him like crazy would be good enough for FNMs and such? I'm thinking RU, but it might also need green for solid ramp. I guess I could use Solemn Simulacrum and Pristine Talisman for a while until the rotation.

    If that doesn't work, I definitely want to do something with Tandem Lookout. Him and Invisible Stalker seems like it could work, at least.

    EDIT: I would also be unopposed to finding a way to make Arcane Melee awesome in Standard, but that seems less likely.

    Birthing Pod seems to me to be the best way to make use of him, R/G/W pod has been seeing some play recently and he's a nice (and considerably cheaper) alternative to Elesh Norn.

    He's bad against control but good against honest decks like humans/vampires.

    Sorin/Liliana's -6 is probably going to be better (and faster) most of the time though.

    That's kind of what I was afraid of. I was hoping Tyrant flicker could be the deck to last me post-rotation, as I've already got a really awesome B-Pod deck. I guess I'll have to look elsewhere.
    Vyolynce wrote: »
    Terrendos wrote: »
    1. I think you can take damage and then regenerate.

    Not quite. You have to do so after blockers have been declared (and ordered, if necessary) but before the damage is actually dealt.

    Regeneration is best thought of as a kind of shield (not unlike Protection from X); you have to put it up before you actually get hit or it doesn't work that well.

    Yeah that's my bad, I meant that you can put regenerate on the stack "after" (but really before) damage is dealt. I should probably not write rules posts at 3AM.

    Sig1.png
  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    In competitive formats where you're trying to adhere to a tight mana curve, Mana Leak is effectively "1U: Counter target spell" most of the time.

    The only time it's not is if you're casting a 1 CMC spell on turn 4 or similar scenarios (and you don't plan on using the extra mana for another spell), in which case, you're already way behind the curve.

    Feral on
    I am comforted by Richard Dawkins’ theory of memes. Those are mental units: thoughts, ideas, gestures, notions, songs, beliefs, rhymes, ideals, teachings, sayings, phrases, clichés that move from mind to mind as genes move from body to body. After a lifetime of writing, teaching, broadcasting and telling too many jokes, I will leave behind more memes than many. They will all also eventually die, but so it goes. - Roger Ebert, I Do Not Fear Death
  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    Obviously they don't consider too powerful to ban, but they consider it problematic enough to metagame against it.

    I am comforted by Richard Dawkins’ theory of memes. Those are mental units: thoughts, ideas, gestures, notions, songs, beliefs, rhymes, ideals, teachings, sayings, phrases, clichés that move from mind to mind as genes move from body to body. After a lifetime of writing, teaching, broadcasting and telling too many jokes, I will leave behind more memes than many. They will all also eventually die, but so it goes. - Roger Ebert, I Do Not Fear Death
  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Registered User regular
    Besides B-Mikaeus, is there any way to give Vexing Devil Undying before your opponent responds to his ETB trigger?

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  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    Besides B-Mikaeus, is there any way to give Vexing Devil Undying before your opponent responds to his ETB trigger?

    I'm not sure on the order of operations, honestly. If you have priority to respond to the ETB trigger before your opponent does, then you can drop an Undying Evil on him for one black mana and give him Undying until EOT. At which point your opponent's options are to eat 8 damage or to let him on the field where he will proceed to beat face.

    Taramoor on
    TARA.gif Click for Steam Profile. WiiU ID: Taramoor
  • VyolynceVyolynce Registered User regular
    Besides B-Mikaeus, is there any way to give Vexing Devil Undying before your opponent responds to his ETB trigger?

    Yes (Undying Evil), but that probably colors their decision, no?

  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Registered User regular
    Well yes, it does. But it seems funny anyway.

    oie_70260dWqoNCrn.jpg
  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    Edit: This was incorrect.

    People can't seem to agree if you can respond to the ETB trigger.

    Taramoor on
    TARA.gif Click for Steam Profile. WiiU ID: Taramoor
  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    Of course you can respond to the ETB trigger.

    However the triggered effect involves a player choice, and choices like Vexing Devil are made when the trigger resolves.

    So here's the order of play:

    Vexing Devil enters the battlefield. ETB trigger goes on the stack saying "Any opponent may choose to have Vexing Devil deal 4 damage to him or her..."

    Gandalf casts Undying Evil, which goes on the stack.

    Resolve stack in reverse order. Undying Evil resolves. Devil now has Undying. Then ETB trigger resolves. Opponent will see that Devil has Undying and choose whether to take the 4 damage or sacrifice the Devil based on that information.

    I am comforted by Richard Dawkins’ theory of memes. Those are mental units: thoughts, ideas, gestures, notions, songs, beliefs, rhymes, ideals, teachings, sayings, phrases, clichés that move from mind to mind as genes move from body to body. After a lifetime of writing, teaching, broadcasting and telling too many jokes, I will leave behind more memes than many. They will all also eventually die, but so it goes. - Roger Ebert, I Do Not Fear Death
  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    Of course you can respond to the ETB trigger.

    However the triggered effect involves a player choice, and choices like Vexing Devil are made when the trigger resolves.

    So here's the order of play:

    Vexing Devil enters the battlefield. ETB trigger goes on the stack saying "Any opponent may choose to have Vexing Devil deal 4 damage to him or her..."

    Gandalf casts Undying Evil, which goes on the stack.

    Resolve stack in reverse order. Undying Evil resolves. Devil now has Undying. Then ETB trigger resolves. Opponent will see that Devil has Undying and choose whether to take the 4 damage or sacrifice the Devil based on that information.

    It's my own fault for just searching for the answer (yay Bing Rewards, though, another 500 Xbox points).

    Fair enough, I saw three or so different people arguing that since it's a triggered ability that priority goes to the opponent first to respond, but it makes more sense that the ETB ability goes on and then Undying Evil gets cast before the decision is made.

    It's a nice, tough position to put them in though. They can take eight damage now or they can deal with a 4/3. I can't imagine any player taking the four damage and then not taking four more when it comes back with a +1.

    TARA.gif Click for Steam Profile. WiiU ID: Taramoor
  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Registered User regular
    Turn 1: Mountain, Vexing Devil. If opponent chooses to pay 4 life, Noxious Revival. Summon trollface.

    oie_70260dWqoNCrn.jpg
  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    Turn 1: Mountain, Vexing Devil. If opponent chooses to pay 4 life, Noxious Revival. Summon trollface.

    There are a lot of different ways to make people HATE Vexing Devil.

    The more I think about it it really is just plain gross. It's RDW condensed to a single card.

    TARA.gif Click for Steam Profile. WiiU ID: Taramoor
  • SJSJ Registered User regular
    Yeah, I'm sure your opponent will feel really bad about you giving them a dismember and allowing them to cast it without tapping any mana. It's good, but people go a little overboard about it.

    SJ on
  • VyolynceVyolynce Registered User regular
    Turn 1: Mountain, Vexing Devil. If opponent chooses to pay 4 life, Noxious Revival. Summon trollface.

    Turn 2: Mountain, Devil.

    Then second Devil. ;)

  • NullzoneNullzone Tabletop [E] Registered User regular
    Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if every red deck from now until the block is separated or the card is banned runs a 4-set of Vexing Devils; 1 mana for a 4/3 or 4 to the face is pretty nuts.

    Nullzone on
  • VyolynceVyolynce Registered User regular
    In the end, it's probably still worse than Goblin Guide -- and that nuisance was everywhere.

  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Registered User regular
    Vyolynce wrote: »
    Turn 1: Mountain, Vexing Devil. If opponent chooses to pay 4 life, Noxious Revival. Summon trollface.

    Turn 2: Mountain, Devil.

    Then second Devil. ;)

    Yes, this is actually what I was thinking.

    RDW + Phyrexian-G is gonna be horrifying.

    oie_70260dWqoNCrn.jpg
  • ChenChen Registered User regular
    Vyolynce wrote: »
    In the end, it's probably still worse than Goblin Guide -- and that nuisance was everywhere.

    GG had to contend with Wall of Omens though, while devil smashes through Spellskite, Angelic Wall and the like. A 4/3 body is just massive in the first few turns. In any format.

    fe6roy500x80_zps3a6a94b6.jpg
  • SJSJ Registered User regular
    That doesn't necessarily make it worth giving up your first turn in order to have your opponent start at 16 life. There will be a lot of things to consider.

    SJ on
  • ForarForar Registered User regular
    Hell, it brings to mind Serra Avenger in some ways. A 3/3 flier (okay, evasion makes this all kinds of awesome) with Vigilence for WW, but can't be cast on the first, second or third turn.

    Note: I'm not equating the two cards directly. Just saying it's interesting the evolution of the game, what was considered too powerful to have on the table too early, versus what we get now.

    Edit: granted, it doesn't have as much use against creatures as Lightning Bolt, but even viewing it as "Sorcery: R deal 4 damage to your opponent" isn't too shabby.

    Now, much like Browbeat and other such cards, they'll just pick the least bad option (why eat the 4 if they can just murder it with removal? Why murder it if they're sitting on some beefy lifelinkers that are about to come online, etc), but if you nail a pair of these early, that's a hell of a lead in the race, potentially.

    Of course, I'll probably never own one, let alone four of them, let alone play in a standard tournament, so as usual, feel free to take this idle speculation for pure hatespeech if need be.

    Forar on
    dbrock270 wrote: »
    You know, if Obama wins, I will never make another political prediction on these boards for the rest of my life.
    Steam: Forar Origin: Forar80 B.Net: Forar#1391
  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    Let's not forget that Mental Misstep is in Standard for a while yet.

    Terrendos on
    Sig1.png
  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Registered User regular
    Terrendos wrote: »
    Let's not forget that Mental Misstep is in Standard for a while yet.

    Let's not forget that Mental Misstep is in Standard for a while yet.
    Spoiler:

    oie_70260dWqoNCrn.jpg
  • ChenChen Registered User regular
    SJ wrote: »
    That doesn't necessarily make it worth giving up your first turn in order to have your opponent start at 16 life. There will be a lot of things to consider.

    Obviously, just like GG, the devil only fits in specific archetypes. Legacy burn and Modern R/B come to mind where t1 Lava Spike or Bump into the Night isn't uncommon. It certainly beats Spark Elemental which was actually played in Legacy and Extended.

    fe6roy500x80_zps3a6a94b6.jpg
  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Registered User regular
    The Legacy answer is "Island, Lotus Petal, Chalice of the Void where X = 1. Go."

    oie_70260dWqoNCrn.jpg
  • ChenChen Registered User regular
    Too bad it doesn't counter the copies of Shattering Spree. Got blown out so many times by that card. I really should stop playing Tron.

    fe6roy500x80_zps3a6a94b6.jpg
  • peacekeeperpeacekeeper Brisbane, AustraliaRegistered User regular
    i usually don't like altered art cards but this is sweet

  • SJSJ Registered User regular
    i usually don't like altered art cards but this is sweet

    Holy shit this is amazing. And it's the best Zelda game ever. Yesss

  • KelorKelor Registered User regular
    I'm thinking this looks decent for GW. Only concern is that if we see Wolfrun returning due to Cavern Whipflares and Slagstorms would eat it alive.

    Deranged Hermit does dirty, dirty things during combat steps though as well as turning your Avacyn's Pilgrims into, well, Soylent Green.

    Creatures
    4 Champion of the Parish
    4 Avacyn’s Pilgrim
    1 Ulvenwald Tracker
    1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
    2 Deranged Outcast
    3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    3 Mayor of Avabruck
    2 Mentor of the Meek
    2 Daybreak Ranger
    2 Champion of Lambholt
    3 Mirran Crusader
    2 Huntmaster of the Fells
    2 Sigarda, Host of Herons


    3 Oblivion Ring
    2 Descendants' Path

    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Sunpetal Grove
    2 Gavony Township
    2 Rootbound Crag
    7 Forest
    5 Plains

    Sideboard:
    2 Ray of Revelation
    2 Beast Within
    3 Timely Reinforcements
    2 Witchbane Orb
    1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    2 Eaten by Spiders
    2 Corrosive Gale

  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    I think I have a pretty awesome deck built, been doing some testing in solitaire simulation games... Question though.

    If 2 "enter the battlefield" effects are triggering off of the same creature, can I choose which order to execute them in? Here's the example that raised the question.

    I have Warstorm Surge in play. (Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under your control, it deals damage equal to its power to target creature or player.)
    I have a few creatures in play, and I summon in a Craterhoof Behemoth. (When Craterhoof Behemoth enters the battlefield, creatures you control gain trample and get +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of creatures you control.)

    Can I add the +X/+X to the Behemoth before I trigger Warstorm Surge with it?

    camo_sig2.png
  • DarianDarian Registered User regular
    Yes; active player chooses the order that simultaneous effects will go onto the stack. So you first trigger the Surge, then the Behemoth's ability. Each player gets a chance to play additional fast effects, then you start working your way back down the stack.

  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    Darian wrote: »
    Yes; active player chooses the order that simultaneous effects will go onto the stack. So you first trigger the Surge, then the Behemoth's ability. Each player gets a chance to play additional fast effects, then you start working your way back down the stack.
    Spoiler:

    camo_sig2.png
  • B.C.B.C. Registered User regular
    If you're worried about getting blown out by Slagstorm/Whipflare you can always sideboard a few copies of Divine Deflection or whatever that new white X prevent+redirect spell is.

    This Sig is for Munkus <3
  • KelorKelor Registered User regular
    Hmm, might be a thought. Even popping it for four and preventing one of each would probably do it, they get larger quick.

    In other Avacyn Restored news, guys, I have lived the dream.
    Spoiler:

  • TarantioTarantio Registered User regular
    Chen wrote: »
    Vyolynce wrote: »
    In the end, it's probably still worse than Goblin Guide -- and that nuisance was everywhere.

    GG had to contend with Wall of Omens though, while devil smashes through Spellskite, Angelic Wall and the like. A 4/3 body is just massive in the first few turns. In any format.

    A 4/3 in the first few turns is better than 4 to the dome... which is why it will almost never happen. Likewise, 4 to the dome in the end game will win lots of games that a 4/3 wouldn't- and neither will Vexing Devil.

    I think the best way to evaluate this card is to pretend it has all of it's drawbacks at once. Something like:

    Vexing Scamp (R)

    If Vexing Scamp would deal combat damage to an opponent, sacrifice it instead. If you do, Vexing Scamp deals 4 damage to that opponent.

    Vexing Scamp can't block unless an opponent has 8 or less life.

    4/3

    (Full disclosure, I stole this idea from the mtgsalvation thread.)

    I would argue that this card would be essentially identical in effect in the vast majority of cases.

    Would you play that card?

    "Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be -- or to be indistinguishable from -- self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time."
    Neal Stephenson
  • PikaPuffPikaPuff Registered User regular
    It wasn't a miracle. You willed that shit to happen.
    Kelor wrote: »
    Hmm, might be a thought. Even popping it for four and preventing one of each would probably do it, they get larger quick.

    In other Avacyn Restored news, guys, I have lived the dream.
    Spoiler:
    It wasn't a miracle. You willed it to happen. Good job.

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