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[PATV] Extra Credits s.3 ep.23 - Skyrim's Opening

BrogeyBrogey High MaintenanceSanta Monica, CASuper Moderator, Moderator mod
edited January 2012 in The Penny Arcade Hub
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  • PikaPuffPikaPuff Registered User regular
    huh. good explanation of why me and my brother returned this game to redbox right after the intro tutorial.

  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X When you speak I hear muffinsRegistered User regular
    Pika whaaa. Yeah, it dragged for me too but then you step outside and fun times begin.

    Should be some interesting reactions in here. The favorable comparison to Modern Warfare's intro in particular is sure to provoke rage, but it's true; for what it's trying to, Modern Warfare does it's thang extremely well.

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  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    I agree with them about the sudden character creation screen really interrupting the flow of the intro, other than that I think it serves pretty well as an exposition dump. And EVERY Elder Scrolls game has started with the player as a prisoner, so it didn't really strike me as strange. I thought the whole thing was pretty cinematic and interesting, and the moment that really hooked me (other than the dragon attack) was when you leave the tutorial dungeon and BAM... mountains in the distance.

  • GospreyGosprey Registered User
    20 minutes might seem like a long intro, but compared to the hours a typical player will log in Skyrim, I can't think its disproportionately long.

  • Lawful EvilLawful Evil Registered User regular
    Even Oblivion started out slow and small, and THAT was an exposition dump where you suddenly meet the Emperor out of nowhere with no real emotional connection at all. That didn't stop me from spending an innumerable amount of time on Oblivion, and I never even finished the main quest.

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  • TubeTube Says some shit Administrator, ClubPA admin
    PikaPuff wrote:
    huh. good explanation of why me and my brother returned this game to redbox right after the intro tutorial.

    I think the government's failure to regulate the amount of lead in paint explains it more plausibly.

  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    PikaPuff wrote:
    huh. good explanation of why me and my brother returned this game to redbox right after the intro tutorial.

    what the f

  • jackaljackal Registered User regular
    Right after the intro is the "oh look at this fuckin' open world" moment they referred to. For most people stopping at that point would cause the worst case of gaming blue balls ever.

  • AegeriAegeri Registered User regular
    You know, watching this really put together what bothered me about the opening of Skyrim. The game didn't grab me until about 1 hour in and I started to love it. The opening of the game was pretty slow and I found the conversation in the cart very irritating to follow (for precisely the reasons they gave). While it's only a tiny part of the game, it's not something I'm looking forward to seeing again if I decide to make a new character for whatever reason.

  • KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    I've actually made it to the first town after the intro and haven't picked it up since. I have a small inclination to do so as well. There are just a lot of shorter titles that I'd like to log hours into and even complete before I go playing a single player MMO (for lack of a better comparison). I.E. Arkham City, Skyward Sword, Muramasa, Assassin's Creed Brotherhood/Revelations...the list goes on. I have a lot of unfinished business and the appeal of a game, that in short seems endless, is pretty small. I think this is the reason why I haven't played Dark Souls in awhile either. I'm sure there are others that feel this way too.

    As far as the intro goes, yeah I wasn't that impressed by it. Especially when compared to something like MW's intro which pretty much segued into me playing it for 8 hours straight to beat it. I think the points he hit were pretty accurate but could be considered biased towards Modern Warfare. I mean he completely skipped the dragon encounter. That's what I was most excited for. A fucking dragon.

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  • RedDawnRedDawn Registered User regular
    I didn't really agree with a lot of what they said, but I could see their point. Granted the intro was something I really only wanted to see once.

    It has been discussed before, but if they would have done the same thing like the did with Fallout and have an "are you sure?" save right before you leave the cave to change anything you wanted to it would have been a lot better.

  • Descendant XDescendant X Registered User regular
    Meh. To me the intro to Skyrim painted a very bleak picture that matched what was going on in that cart. You have four guys on their way to death, one being the leader of the resistance. Morale is going to be low, and that was the point. If there had been spectacular vistas and standing stones and mountains in the distance it would have distracted too much from the conversation in the cart.

    I still think that it's better than waking up in a dungeon, listening to that smart-ass dark elf, and then following the Emperor for a half hour.

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote:
    While it's only a tiny part of the game, it's not something I'm looking forward to seeing again if I decide to make a new character for whatever reason.

    Pro tip: It made a save file for you at the moment of character creation. You'll still have to get out of the city, but that's pretty brief the second time through.

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  • Zachary AmaranthZachary Amaranth Registered User regular
    Huh. I would have said the core element of the game is freedom. It's similar, and some of the same problems and points dovetail, but it's not the same thing.
    Gosprey wrote:
    20 minutes might seem like a long intro, but compared to the hours a typical player will log in Skyrim, I can't think its disproportionately long.

    Which is great if you're a dedicated player, but as the video points out, they did a lot of this with a broader audience in mind and that's a pretty big up front investment of time.

    Nowhere near as bad as say, the Final Fantasy game that gets good like 20 hours in, but still.

  • Black_HeartBlack_Heart Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    I didn't agree with their assessment.

    They skipped over the BEST thing about Skyrim's intro... the dragon attack.

    To me, the Skyrim intro had this big feeling of suspense because I KNEW I wasn't going to die.... but I wanted to know how I was going to get out of this seemingly hopeless situation. When the dragon crashes down and starts wrecking the town's shit... I was super immersed and loved it. I also was paying attention to the characters talking, trying to decifer what exactly happened and was immediately picking up on the jargon. I assumed the Stormcloaks were a renegade group fighting the Empire, I knew what the divines were having played previous Elder Scrolls games.

    I guess I'm not who they were talking about though since I'm a veteran Elder Scrolls player and I enjoyed the intro, the cold bleak colors, the helplessness, then the rush of freedom and urgency after the dragon attack and the subsequent escape through the tunnels.

    tl;dr: Skyrim's opening was too deep for them.

    Also, I haven't played a Call of Duty since the first one and really don't give a shit about modern day realistic FPSes. So I guess I'm biased.

    Edit: Also... just because they simplified many of the elements for Skyrim (many of them were convoluted and unnecessary) doesn't necessarily mean they didn't want the game to appeal to veteran Elder Scrolls players as well.

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  • Alfred J. KwakAlfred J. Kwak Registered User
    edited January 2012
    I didn't mind the intro at all. I was also fully aware that I was playing an Elder Scrolls game, so that might have helped.

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  • HenroidHenroid Nobody Nowhere fastRegistered User regular
    While it's true that some words will be jargon to people unfamiliar with the series, a replay will resolve that possibly. And there are people familiar with the series, so it's not wasted effort or a bad move. The game is a sequel in an ongoing series. Not every sequel to any series in any medium takes time to re-establish things. It's not necessary, not wholly. Like I get how it helps and all, but if you take the time to create a Luke Skywalker type character who needs common things explained to him, you're going to have to detract from other elements of the game. Third, the complaint the video brought up about, "Now you know the main character isn't going to be executed" is fucking silly as shit. Uh, what if the main character WAS executed? That would mean the game ends. They're also leaving out the build-up factor of Skyrim's intro. And the importance of the 'routine' going on in the intro, rather than an immediate, "OH SHIT." A built-up "OH SHIT" can be just as impressive.

    The ONE valid point in this is the timing of the character creation.

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  • RedDawnRedDawn Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    This was my first real foray into TES, and I really didn't find it difficult to follow the name dropping in the cart. Granted the second time around it made way more sense.

    I do believe they are digging too deep into the whole intro. 20 minutes is nothing for this game, if you find the intro too long, this may not be the game for you. I also have to agree that the dragon part that they all but skipped over was freaking awesome.

    edit: @Henroid Damn, that is pretty much what I was trying to say, but you did it so much better.

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  • HenroidHenroid Nobody Nowhere fastRegistered User regular
    I would make the comparison to Fallout 3's intro if anything, it makes way more fucking sense. Character starts in a very constrained environment, and when you exit out into the game world it's a pretty big fucking deal (eyes adjusting to sunlight was a very neat trick). Bethesda was trying to mirror that. Did it come up short? Yeah probably.

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  • Alfred J. KwakAlfred J. Kwak Registered User
    edited January 2012
    From a gameplay standpoint, Morrowind and Fallout New Vegas probably handled the intro better (you arrive, have a short conversation and get kicked out into the world), but I also rather liked how they handled it in Skyrim (you have nice little chat that brings you up to date on the current world affairs, you get to see someone's head chopped off and then there's a dragon attack), and the opening dungeon was conveniently short.

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  • boneposerboneposer Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    In addition to the obvious oversight of ignoring the super crazy awesome dragon attack (complete with Michael Hogan going "WHAT IN OBLIVION IS THAT?"), they left out the thing that made the short little dungeon crawl totally worth it:

    "There's a BEAR over there!"

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  • hollywoodh17hollywoodh17 Registered User
    Some very good points made here, and I have to say that I do agree that the first 10 minutes of the game aren’t the most gripping experience that the game has to offer. I felt the same way in a few aspects – it’s not incredibly exciting right off the bat, there are no scenic vistas, etc.

    What the Creditz Crew gets completely wrong is the attempt to compare a high fantasy RPG with a first-person shooter. This is like comparing the Lord of the Rings movies to a Michael Bay film. Say what you want about “well these two games begin the same way, with a main character being carried along and having exposition dumped on them”; I don’t believe that because two games start the same way, it makes them able to be compared. Every single sidescrolling platformer on the NES, Genesis, and SNES begins with “Press Start – Select Player 1 – Wall of Text explaining the problem, who you are, and what you do – Spit you out into the first level.” This doesn’t mean it’s cool to compare, say, Super Turrican and Super Mario World. They’re two separate styles, with two very separate demographics, two separate core game mechanics, and two separate flows.

    Being into high fantasy I can tell you right now that they never begin simply, or excitingly. It’s the style. Put “Fellowship of the Ring” into your DVD player and watch the first 10 minutes. You’ll get Arwen giving you a voiceover that probably includes the words “wizard, hobbit, Mordor, Sauron, Ringwraiths, Frodo, Bilbo, the Shire.” The same is true with Game of Thrones; the first few chapters are setup, then the ball gets rolling and serious shit goes down. The last chapter of Game of Thrones itself might include some of the most exciting, beautiful, well-written prose I’ve ever read. Shit, put in or read any of the Harry Potter works, same thing. Now put in, I dunno, any James Bond flick. Or 2 Fast 2 Furious (which I’m sure you all own.) The first 10 minutes is going to be heart pounding excitement, and probably little else. Different styles, different demographics; neither is “wrong.” Except, you know, Vin Diesel.

    What I’m getting at is that the comparison they drew is as fundamentally flawed as a comparison possibly could be: they’re comparing apples and oranges. Their point – that the beginning of Skyrim isn’t kick-you-in-the-balls exciting – is absolutely correct. But their way of trying to support and prove that point completely misses the mark. And they completely miss the point that it’s not supposed to be exciting. The Elder Scrolls games have always begun with a dude in prison who gets freed at the last second and then makes his mark on the world.

  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X When you speak I hear muffinsRegistered User regular
    The comparison isn't flawed at all; they're not saying the Modern Warfare intro is just 'better' than Skyrim's. They're saying that it sets the tone and pace of the game, 'gets you ready' for it better than Skyrim's intro does for Skyrim.

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  • Peter EbelPeter Ebel Building an empire OsloRegistered User regular
    From a gameplay standpoint, Morrowind and Fallout New Vegas probably handled the intro better (you arrive, have a short conversation and get kicked out into the world), but I also rather liked how they handled it in Skyrim (you have nice little chat that brings you up to date on the current world affairs, you get to see someone's head chopped off and then there's a dragon attack), and the opening dungeon was conveniently short.

    Yeah, once the cart ride is over, shit is good.

    Fuck off and die.
  • n3waccntn3waccnt Registered User
    There's so many ways skyrim's intro could have been improved, I think it's easier to ask what would have been worse. Just starting you somewhere and having tutorial popups would definitely have been worse I think. And that's about it. If you had to be a prisoner (do you? You aren't a prisoner in Daggerfall) going to execution, then how about something less cliche than a big distraction just as the headsman's axe comes down. The only worse thing would be if the distraction was also the most cliche and overused creature in all of fantasy. Oh wait...

  • HenroidHenroid Nobody Nowhere fastRegistered User regular
    The comparison isn't flawed at all; they're not saying the Modern Warfare intro is just 'better' than Skyrim's. They're saying that it sets the tone and pace of the game, 'gets you ready' for it better than Skyrim's intro does for Skyrim.

    The problem is that assumes that is the only proper way to introduce / tell a story. If you look at something like The Big Lebowski, with it's fucking cowboy narrative intro, that has shit all to do with the pace / theme of the story. That's probably not the best example, but I mean... having a slower intro isn't necessarily a BAD thing.

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  • wormspeakerwormspeaker "Objectively Terrible" Registered User regular
    I have to agree with the assessment in the video. Which in case you missed it is:

    Skyrim is an awesome game, and that's why picking apart its lackluster opening sequence is so educational.

    They could have done the opening so much better in so many ways. I think they really ought to have either kept the full on complex game system in place and decided that the game should be for veteran players, which would excuse the poor opening. (Because it would not be considered poor if it were aimed at vets, since they really need the info dump as to where the story is going.) However, that's not what they decided to do. They decided to dumb down the mechanics (or "simplify" if you are a fan boy that can't handle a little criticism of the fame) in order to appeal to new players but still left the heavy handed info dump of an opening. They should have picked one or the other.

    I've played nearly all the Elder Scrolls games (including Daggerfall, but excluding Arena, Battlespire, and Redguard) and I will not be picking this one up until a mod is out to re-implement all the mechanics from Morrowind and Oblivion. What really killed it for me was the removal of creating your own spells and the movement altering magics. (i.e. Jump)

  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    n3waccnt wrote:
    The only worse thing would be if the distraction was also the most cliche and overused creature in all of fantasy.

    Yeah, it was pretty lame how they used that cliche, overused creature for that one scripted event and then it had nothing to do with the rest of the story. Oh wait...

    Seriously though, it was pretty awful how they tricked people into buying Skyrim without giving them any clue the entire story of the game would revolved around those cliche, overused creatures. Oh wait...

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  • n3waccntn3waccnt Registered User
    Yeah, it was pretty lame how they used that cliche, overused creature for that one scripted event and then it had nothing to do with the rest of the story. Oh wait...

    Seriously though, it was pretty awful how they tricked people into buying Skyrim without giving them any clue the entire story of the game would revolved around those cliche, overused creatures. Oh wait...

    For me, I got the game because it was an elder scrolls game. If I never hear the word dragon again, it will be too soon. As for the entire story of the game... a dragon is going to eat the world for no reason, so stop him or something. You mean that story?

    I found the whole (mostly unrealized) subplot about the Aldmeri dominion, Ulfric, and the empire to be some of the most compelling stuff Bethesda has thought of. I wanted to find out about Ulfric's role in the great war. I wanted to know more about the current state of the dominion. Maybe the best thing about the intro is that it didn't explicitly explain what happened between oblivion and skyrim, and created a sort of mystery that it was fun to explore and unravel.

  • IvarIvar Registered User regular
    I hadn't played any of the Elder Scrolls games before Skyrim, so I didn't know what to expect other than some kind of fantasy setting.
    Nevertheless, I was super excited when I started the game for the first time.

    The cart ride was very bleak, and although it was a bit annoying to turn around to follow the conversation, it established a bit of context for the player character.

    Putting the character creation itself before the start of the game might have been a better idea, or maybe move it until you get into the cave, after it's clear that the character we're following is NOT going to be executed. We don't really know that until the character creator pops up, which does break the flow of the game at least a little bit.

    I enjoyed the chaos when the dragon attacked and you had to escape, but it was only by chance that I followed the Stormcloak guy instead of the Imperial guy, even though I had planned to fight the Empire.

    And the feeling when you come out of the cave and see the world spread out before you... fantastic.

  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X When you speak I hear muffinsRegistered User regular
    When that dragon is tearing shit up, the last thing you're concentrating on is some other guy telling you to follow him. I didn't so much make that choice as I did fall into it by chance.

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  • RedDawnRedDawn Registered User regular
    n3waccnt wrote:
    For me, I got the game because it was an elder scrolls game. If I never hear the word dragon again, it will be too soon. As for the entire story of the game... a dragon is going to eat the world for no reason, so stop him or something. You mean that story?

    I found the whole (mostly unrealized) subplot about the Aldmeri dominion, Ulfric, and the empire to be some of the most compelling stuff Bethesda has thought of. I wanted to find out about Ulfric's role in the great war. I wanted to know more about the current state of the dominion. Maybe the best thing about the intro is that it didn't explicitly explain what happened between oblivion and skyrim, and created a sort of mystery that it was fun to explore and unravel.

    I know this isn't the Skyrim thread but I have to disagree with you. I thought the main story line was quite well done, while the main factions of Skyrim came of as little more than petulant children.

    The game has many flaws, but I don't think the intro was one of them.

  • AurichAurich Registered User regular
    I got the game last week and I still haven't got through the intro. There's some fatal bug that occurs midway through every time, and I'm sure it'll take me under ten minutes to work out if I ever feel like it. But I sat through the cart ride and marveled at the lovely environments and paid half attention to the guys' chatter, was fairly bored through the execution scene, was excited at the dragon showing up and running through the burning village, but immediately after that I'm safe and following strangers through tunnels and the game dies. Without that big payoff at the end where they cut you loose, the intro is kind of a drag.

  • JoveJove Registered User regular
    This is my first time I almost completely disagree with Extra Credits. They made a good point about the timing of the character creation, but...

    They completely skipped over many other parts about the intro. The dragon attack that led to putting a stop to your exucution at the last minute, having to think in a matter of a couple of seconds to decide which guy you want to escape with, different enemies you encountered depending on who you chose, and of course...the bear XD. They tried to make it sound like the whole intro had no excitement at all in it when it had a ton.

    I also didn't like how they explained about the fact that YOU KNOW your main character is not going to die...well of course. The game would end. But like someone else said, watching how the main character escapes at a completely hopeless situation can be just as if not more exciting. They also didn't realize that in the call of duty game, their is no main character of sorts. In fact, a couple of the protagonists died before you finally controlled somebody to the end of the story, and that happened in the mid point of the game. Comparing a game with the one and only dragon born of Skyrim to no clear protagonist soldiers IMO is a bit silly.

    And of course, I find just overall comparing the transformers of video games (Call of Duty) to an popular fantasy open world RPG (Skyrim) a little ridicules. Not every game, movie, book, etc. Is going to start out with heart beating exciting action or whatnot, nor should it. The intro was not perfect by any means, there are definitely some ways it could have been improved upon but the reasons made in the video are way off.

    I was also kind of disappointed with the topic of choice here. I was hoping they would talk about the SOPA bill that is coming up on the 20th of January I believe and now or next week hopefully would be a great time for it, and try to raise concern on how that bill affects the game industry or the Internet as we know it. Instead, we get a video that seems to be really nitpicky about the very beginning part of a great game, and not even done well at that.

    But everybody makes mistakes, hopefully they talk about a topic a little more important for next week. :)

  • IvarIvar Registered User regular
    Jove wrote:
    This is my first time I almost completely disagree with Extra Credits. They made a good point about the timing of the character creation, but...

    They completely skipped over many other parts about the intro. The dragon attack that led to putting a stop to your exucution at the last minute, having to think in a matter of a couple of seconds to decide which guy you want to escape with, different enemies you encountered depending on who you chose, and of course...the bear XD. They tried to make it sound like the whole intro had no excitement at all in it when it had a ton.

    I also didn't like how they explained about the fact that YOU KNOW your main character is not going to die...well of course. The game would end. But like someone else said, watching how the main character escapes at a completely hopeless situation can be just as if not more exciting. They also didn't realize that in the call of duty game, their is no main character of sorts. In fact, a couple of the protagonists died before you finally controlled somebody to the end of the story, and that happened in the mid point of the game. Comparing a game with the one and only dragon born of Skyrim to no clear protagonist soldiers IMO is a bit silly.

    And of course, I find just overall comparing the transformers of video games (Call of Duty) to an popular fantasy open world RPG (Skyrim) a little ridicules. Not every game, movie, book, etc. Is going to start out with heart beating exciting action or whatnot, nor should it. The intro was not perfect by any means, there are definitely some ways it could have been improved upon but the reasons made in the video are way off.

    I was also kind of disappointed with the topic of choice here. I was hoping they would talk about the SOPA bill that is coming up on the 20th of January I believe and now or next week hopefully would be a great time for it, and try to raise concern on how that bill affects the game industry or the Internet as we know it. Instead, we get a video that seems to be really nitpicky about the very beginning part of a great game, and not even done well at that.

    But everybody makes mistakes, hopefully they talk about a topic a little more important for next week. :)

    The way I saw this episode, they didn't talk about the awesome parts of the Skyrim intro because the subject was the other parts, the parts that could have been improved.

    In Skyrim, you don't know for sure that the character you're controlling is important (and will probably survive) until the character creator pops up.
    The impending execution still creates tension, but it's more like this:
    How will the person you're controlling get out of this situation? Through an exciting sequence of running from a dragon and fighting your way through a cave, that's how.

    In the Modern Warfare intro, you don't know anything about the person you're controlling - he might even be the main protagonist. You only find out that he isn't when he gets shot.
    Here the person you are controlling is killed, and yet the game does NOT end. So in this case:
    How will the person you're controlling get out of this situation? ...he doesn't. He's shot dead. But the game goes on.

    I don't think they really compared the whole of the two games, just the intro - because it follows a similar structure in both games.

  • n3waccntn3waccnt Registered User
    I didn't test this, but in the escaping the execution thing, was there any real danger? I mean the dragon never comes after the player does it? If he had you'd just die. If you stand around long enough, I don't what will happen, but I would more expect a flashing yellow arrow to point you toward the barracks than the dragon to have killed you. I got the feeling the whole thing was just meant to look exciting and dangerous, but it wasn't. So why make it look that way.

    That was the good point of the video I thought. The forte of games like skyrim isn't the fast paced action "hook" of other games, so they should stick to what they're good at and make an intro which highlights the game's real strengths. Exploration, discovery, character growth...

  • VeagleVeagle Registered User regular
    I haven't played Modern Warfare, but haven't they played the 'oh shit your character is dead' trick in every game in the series? Is it actually a shocking moment when they kill a character before the game has even started and you still have no connection to them?

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  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X When you speak I hear muffinsRegistered User regular
    Veagle wrote:
    I haven't played Modern Warfare, but haven't they played the 'oh shit your character is dead' trick in every game in the series? Is it actually a shocking moment when they kill a character before the game has even started and you still have no connection to them?

    This was the first time! The intro to the first MW game. And also;
    Spoiler:

    Every other time a character gets killed later on, you definitely have more of a connection to them, and in the first 2 games it was far less predictable. It was always a shock, imo.

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  • SlurmeeSlurmee Registered User
    The cart ride just sucked. Everything after creating your character was good imo

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  • AegeriAegeri Registered User regular
    Yeah the cart ride was slow and didn't really help me to get immersed. I sort of fumbled my way through the dragon attack, mostly because I was annoyed I couldn't grab a weapon and fight at any point.

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