But I don't think he's out there to "ruin" his movies because the fans like the old ones. He's just a guy who thinks he could make the OT better. However, he is in fact making the OT much worse by adding in his bullshit. I only hold this opinion for the original special edition... the shit he added into the Blu-Rays is borderline criminal, where I suspect he is still tinkering with shit in the OT /dealwithit. The PT is also god-awful, there's no excuse for movies like that.
So I recently read an interview with Lucas about why he keeps changing his movies despite the fanboys never-ending nerd rage. Apparently he views his devoted fans like he viewed the big movie companies; as meddlesome, interfering pricks who just want to fuck with his vision. Basically the reason he keeps changing things is because, for all intents and purposes, he wants to piss them off.
At first I felt I lost a little respect for him, but then I was like "They're just movies... and he makes them. His movie, his decisions."
What's the pitch the Jedi recruiter gives parents anyway?
You're child gets to join the most prestigious organization in the galaxy and become a hero of the Republic. And if they stay here they might turn into a psychopath and kill everyone.
The Jedi are Warrior-Monks, with an emphasis on the monk part. To use the force effectivly requires a deep spiritual connection, without it they are crap warriors brining a lightsaber to a blasterfight. Thats why they wear robes and also why people hand over their children to the order.
Its not like its unusual, both the west and the east have traditions of monastic orders recruting children. The Shaolin monks of China would be a great example, one that actualy trained in martial arts and fought in times of crisis. The current Chinese Red Army have several soldiers that trained with the reborn Shaolin temple while children.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
0
Options
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
This is a character that needs to exist, if only because it's so obvious. A guy or girl who can read minds and manipulate physics, but possessed a flexible moral compass and a penchant for the finer things in life, would be a pretty rad character to see in action.
A better example might be the Suvorov Schools in the CIS countries (and any American counterpart--wasn't there a Stalone movie where he's a truck driver and visits his young son in one?). They're basically military boarding schools for 14 to 17 year olds, and function primarily as secondary schools with some preparation for students to join military programs come college.
That in mind, you probably wouldn't give these guys and girls Kalashnikovs and RPGs, even if they are the seniormost students:
Or send them to a far-off war zone. And these kids were older than some of the younglings.
Maybe it's just living in different environments, but I have nieces and nephews who were handling rifles at around 5 years old each and with better muzzle control than plenty of adults I've seen. So giving any of them an AK wouldn't worry me in the slightest. Except for the fact that it'd be useless in little kid hands.
And it's not like the kids were the ones being sent off to fight. As far as I saw padawans actually fighting with the other jedi were in their late teens. Which is pretty much when we start sending people off to war anyway. They were just being taught to use a weapon everyone in the order had at least some proficiency with. Which as was the point in the beginning, probably similar to how everyone in the military has arms training regardless of whether they'll ever use a gun again.
It must be different environments. But I'm saying this as someone from a country with the draft, and where guns are only allowed to be owned by the indigenous.
It's not the five year olds that are fucked up, so much as the fourteen year olds who are flying bombers and chopping off arms, like Ashoka. Hence the Suvorovets example.
This is a character that needs to exist, if only because it's so obvious. A guy or girl who can read minds and manipulate physics, but possessed a flexible moral compass and a penchant for the finer things in life, would be a pretty rad character to see in action.
Wouldn't the flexible moral compass make you a grey Jedi or a Sith? I thought Jedi morality was supposed to be very strict or they risk falling to the dark side.
But I don't think he's out there to "ruin" his movies because the fans like the old ones. He's just a guy who thinks he could make the OT better. However, he is in fact making the OT much worse by adding in his bullshit. I only hold this opinion for the original special edition... the shit he added into the Blu-Rays is borderline criminal, where I suspect he is still tinkering with shit in the OT /dealwithit. The PT is also god-awful, there's no excuse for movies like that.
So I recently read an interview with Lucas about why he keeps changing his movies despite the fanboys never-ending nerd rage. Apparently he views his devoted fans like he viewed the big movie companies; as meddlesome, interfering pricks who just want to fuck with his vision. Basically the reason he keeps changing things is because, for all intents and purposes, he wants to piss them off.
At first I felt I lost a little respect for him, but then I was like "They're just movies... and he makes them. His movie, his decisions."
I don't think he intends to piss of his fans (Who does?). The personal viewpoint of his explicated in the NYT article just seems to conflict with most peoples desires regarding Star Wars.
It must be different environments. But I'm saying this as someone from a country with the draft, and where guns are only allowed to be owned by the indigenous.
It's not the five year olds that are fucked up, so much as the fourteen year olds who are flying bombers and chopping off arms, like Ashoka. Hence the Suvorovets example.
I was still just referring to the kids training with what may or may not have been real light sabers.
Sending their kids to war is pretty awful in and of itself, yes.
0
Options
Linespider5ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGERRegistered Userregular
Lucas strikes me as a man incapable of putting his past behind him. If Star Wars wasn't such a big deal, if he had actually been truly able to grow as a creative presence in the world, if he could be seen as something other than The Creator of Star Wars, well...there's quite a lot holding him back and it keeps him chained to this franchise machine. Most of it is his own doing in one way or another, but...he is very much a man held in check by his own accomplishments.
One of my favorite statements on George Lucas and Star Wars actually comes, believe it or not, from the Gamecube title Viewtiful Joe. As you progress in the game it becomes very on the nose about portraying an allegory about a frustrated, isolated movie visionary who became a victim of his own success, and his one true fan fighting through the very movies that served as their bond between director and audience. Movies with Tie Fighters in them.
I know that waving around the Plinkett reviews is old hat at this point, but the Episode 2 one talks about the ruination of the lightsaber and how making it the universal Jedi weapon completely undermines the "size matters not" teachings of Yoda.
Yoda having a lightsaber means he has to employ a fighting style that compensates for the fact that he's two feet tall. This means that size matters. If a fifteen foot tall monster could become a Jedi or a Sith, his lightsaber would be the size of a tree, and he could still theoretically use the Force to leapfrog around just like Yoda does. This makes him far more likely to win in a fight against Yoda, once again due to his size.
I always thought that Jedi like Yoda or Sith like Palpatine at which point they became a Master were beyond that of a lightsaber, the Force was truly their ally at that point and could be used to do all sorts of things. To give them a lightsaber seems almost to lessen them more then anything.
Since someone mentioned it in Coruscant Nights it turns out there is another "sect" of Jedi out there, I can't remember if they were considered grey Jedi or not but what made them so unique was that they used the Force to enhance their abilities with a good ol fashion pistol then a lightsaber.
0
Options
ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
I know that waving around the Plinkett reviews is old hat at this point, but the Episode 2 one talks about the ruination of the lightsaber and how making it the universal Jedi weapon completely undermines the "size matters not" teachings of Yoda.
Yoda having a lightsaber means he has to employ a fighting style that compensates for the fact that he's two feet tall. This means that size matters. If a fifteen foot tall monster could become a Jedi or a Sith, his lightsaber would be the size of a tree, and he could still theoretically use the Force to leapfrog around just like Yoda does. This makes him far more likely to win in a fight against Yoda, once again due to his size.
Plinkett makes some good points. But he also nit-picks needlessly and misrepresents to build a larger critique against whatever he's ranting against. To that end, he's pretty over-rated, I think.
Case in point. Yoda did not have a smaller lightsaber because he is smaller. He had a smaller lightsaber because him with a bigger lightsaber would have looked goofy as hell. Star Wars does adhere to the rule of aesthetic coolness and pragmatism. And size or not, it would have been pretty frigging obnoxious to swing. Nevermind awkward to watch.
A normal sword has a good amount of weight to it. A lightsaber is basically a sword that can cut through metal like steel, and has intense centrifugal forces to wield, meaning it's a bitch to even hold it properly. If Yoda wanted to use a bigger sword, he'd basically have to be throwing telekinesis onto the thing constantly to counter-balance it, past a certain size. He could certainly do it, but it'd be pointless, ostentatious, and basically the equivalent of him swinging his dick around, saying "Yeah, i'm that awesome". Which is very un-Jedi.
Also, Yoda pretty obviously was handing Dooku his ass with the Force alone, before he decided to go for the coup de grace with the saber. And his "style" is pretty damn unique, too. It's basically what happens when you give a midget ninja telepathic and prescient powers. Which, going off of the movie means that yeah, size didn't really matter. Dooku's supposed to be the greatest sword fighter of the order at the time. Yoda's probably the greatest force user. It's a battle of skill. And it wouldn't be past a Jedi to try and redeem a student by showing them that they're out-matched. You can do all the flipping you want, but if your opponent can see it coming in his mind, it really doesn't matter. So that complaint really doesn't make any sense.
Also, the point was to show Yoda kicking ass and being cool. Which it undoubtedly did. The whole complaint is basically a really geeky Star Wars nerd sitting through a bad movie, then looking at one of the only good scenes and trying to rationalize it as being bad by going "But MY CANON!" while not understanding the mechanics behind even wielding a real life weapon. Never mind what would happen if you took the logic of the universe in question, and the logical deductions of what would happen if you tried to wield a weapon with its own set of fantasy rules and requirements to use without dismembering something.
I'm pretty sure the blade of a lightsaber is made of, y'know, light, and therefore weighs nothing
so really a longer blade wouldn't be any more unwieldy than a short blade. and if you've ever waved a flashlight around pretending it was a lightsaber, you've pretty much nailed the experience minus the inevitable dismemberment
Joolander on
0
Options
ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
I'm pretty sure the blade of a lightsaber is made of, y'know, light, and therefore weighs nothing
so really a longer blade wouldn't be any more unwieldy than a short blade
There's some comment on wookiepedia I read about how the light is projected and stopped at the tip via some sort of centrifugal force or something, and that's why normal people can't wield lightsabers. Because it'd throw them off half the time and they'd probably hack their arm off in a fight with someone who knew what they were doing.
Basically, it's a justification on why you don't see people just running around with swords that can cut through steel like it's nothing. But it also ties into a bunch of other stuff too, apparently. Like how Jedi and Sith operate.
Archonex on
0
Options
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
But I don't think he's out there to "ruin" his movies because the fans like the old ones. He's just a guy who thinks he could make the OT better. However, he is in fact making the OT much worse by adding in his bullshit. I only hold this opinion for the original special edition... the shit he added into the Blu-Rays is borderline criminal, where I suspect he is still tinkering with shit in the OT /dealwithit. The PT is also god-awful, there's no excuse for movies like that.
So I recently read an interview with Lucas about why he keeps changing his movies despite the fanboys never-ending nerd rage. Apparently he views his devoted fans like he viewed the big movie companies; as meddlesome, interfering pricks who just want to fuck with his vision. Basically the reason he keeps changing things is because, for all intents and purposes, he wants to piss them off.
At first I felt I lost a little respect for him, but then I was like "They're just movies... and he makes them. His movie, his decisions."
It is a tad bit arrogant for him to act like he was personally responsible for everything in Star Wars that made it a huge success.
0
Options
ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
I hope you worked off some of that anger in the angry dome before posting, Farnsworth. Hate to see what the original post would have been like otherwise.
The quote, for reference:
Due to the weightlessness of plasma and the strong gyroscopic effect generated by it, lightsabers required a great deal of strength and dexterity to wield, and it was extremely difficult—and dangerous—for the untrained to attempt using. However, in the hands of an expert of the Force, the lightsaber was a weapon to be greatly respected and feared. To wield a lightsaber was to demonstrate incredible skill and confidence, as well as masterful dexterity and attunement to the Force.
Took me two minutes to get it.
Edit: The logic behind lightsabers makes my head hurt.
The first lightsabers came into being when Jedi combined advanced offworld technology with a forging ritual, learning how to "freeze" a laser beam.
Lasers do not work that way!
Archonex on
0
Options
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Case in point. Yoda did not have a smaller lightsaber because he is smaller. He had a smaller lightsaber because him with a bigger lightsaber would have looked goofy as hell.
So, what you're saying is, Yoda had a smaller ligthsaber because he is smaller.
0
Options
ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
Case in point. Yoda did not have a smaller lightsaber because he is smaller. He had a smaller lightsaber because him with a bigger lightsaber would have looked goofy as hell.
So, what you're saying is, Yoda had a smaller ligthsaber because he is smaller.
If you want to ignore everything else that I posted, then sure.
So the scene in Empire when Han Solo, no experienced wielder of lightsabers by any means, is cutting open Luke's tauntaun with Luke's own lightsaber: This is kind of just one quick herky-jerky movement and not really "using" the thing in the truest sense? It's been built up like the thing is so unwieldy that he should have cut into that animal's gut and then a good bit of his own leg.
I think a problem is that if you block a lightsaber with something that is not a lightsaber, your weapon would be cut in half.
But if a Jedi is adept enough in the Force, they can just block lightsabers with telekinesis. The Jedi have been shown to perform incredible feats with the Force. If they can lift giant machinery then they should be able to push a lightsaber away. Not to mention how they could practice focusing their telekinesis so they can break the machinery of lightsabers or mess around with their opponent's internal organs.
The slippery slope of this argument is a movie where opposing Jedi walk into a room, pause, shake hands and congratulate each other on their decisive win in the battle that didn't need to take place.
In a universe where entire limbs can be replaced wholesale with robotic parts, with no discernible loss in function, yeah I'd take that gamble. Pass me the silver tube that emits the invincible beam of light, but is a jerk about it and so throws you off balance constantly. You know, the one from a more civilized age. We're going to train with this thing even if it means cutting off the same prosthetic hand for the eighth time today. I'm basically the Highlander. As long as I don't cut off my own head with it, I probably have a great chance at replacing whatever it is I do cut off. Ladies.
I know that waving around the Plinkett reviews is old hat at this point, but the Episode 2 one talks about the ruination of the lightsaber and how making it the universal Jedi weapon completely undermines the "size matters not" teachings of Yoda.
Yoda having a lightsaber means he has to employ a fighting style that compensates for the fact that he's two feet tall. This means that size matters. If a fifteen foot tall monster could become a Jedi or a Sith, his lightsaber would be the size of a tree, and he could still theoretically use the Force to leapfrog around just like Yoda does. This makes him far more likely to win in a fight against Yoda, once again due to his size.
Plinkett makes some good points. But he also nit-picks needlessly and misrepresents to build a larger critique against whatever he's ranting against. To that end, he's pretty over-rated, I think.
Case in point. Yoda did not have a smaller lightsaber because he is smaller. He had a smaller lightsaber because him with a bigger lightsaber would have looked goofy as hell. Star Wars does adhere to the rule of aesthetic coolness and pragmatism. And size or not, it would have been pretty frigging obnoxious to swing. Nevermind awkward to watch.
A normal sword has a good amount of weight to it. A lightsaber is basically a sword that can cut through metal like steel, and has intense centrifugal forces to wield, meaning it's a bitch to even hold it properly. If Yoda wanted to use a bigger sword, he'd basically have to be throwing telekinesis onto the thing constantly to counter-balance it, past a certain size. He could certainly do it, but it'd be pointless, ostentatious, and basically the equivalent of him swinging his dick around, saying "Yeah, i'm that awesome". Which is very un-Jedi.
Also, Yoda pretty obviously was handing Dooku his ass with the Force alone, before he decided to go for the coup de grace with the saber. And his "style" is pretty damn unique, too. It's basically what happens when you give a midget ninja telepathic and prescient powers. Which, going off of the movie means that yeah, size didn't really matter. Dooku's supposed to be the greatest sword fighter of the order at the time. Yoda's probably the greatest force user. It's a battle of skill. And it wouldn't be past a Jedi to try and redeem a student by showing them that they're out-matched. You can do all the flipping you want, but if your opponent can see it coming in his mind, it really doesn't matter. So that complaint really doesn't make any sense.
Also, the point was to show Yoda kicking ass and being cool. Which it undoubtedly did. The whole complaint is basically a really geeky Star Wars nerd sitting through a bad movie, then looking at one of the only good scenes and trying to rationalize it as being bad by going "But MY CANON!" while not understanding the mechanics behind even wielding a real life weapon. Never mind what would happen if you took the logic of the universe in question, and the logical deductions of what would happen if you tried to wield a weapon with its own set of fantasy rules and requirements to use without dismembering something.
You realise the whole point of the complaint is that none of that makes sense with his appearance in the OT, right? Where he basically dismisses the lightsaber as useless, because the Force is a more potent ally?
The whole purpose of his appearance is that he's this tiny frail guy who's a fucking Jedi Master. Not that he needs to flip around to go all crazy action-movie man, but that he doesn't need to be crazy action-movie man at all.
The entire point is that his physical stature is unimportant. Not because the force can compensate for it in a fight, but because he doesn't need to fight like that.
I always thought that Jedi like Yoda or Sith like Palpatine at which point they became a Master were beyond that of a lightsaber, the Force was truly their ally at that point and could be used to do all sorts of things. To give them a lightsaber seems almost to lessen them more then anything.
this. Although really, yoda just shouldn't be fighting at all. Whatever happened to "war not make one great"? Apparently war actually does make one pretty great.
0
Options
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
You realise the whole point of the complaint is that none of that makes sense with his appearance in the OT, right? Where he basically dismisses the lightsaber as useless, because the Force is a more potent ally?
The whole purpose of his appearance is that he's this tiny frail guy who's a fucking Jedi Master. Not that he needs to flip around to go all crazy action-movie man, but that he doesn't need to be crazy action-movie man at all.
The entire point is that his physical stature is unimportant. Not because the force can compensate for it in a fight, but because he doesn't need to fight like that.
Exactly. Luke goes seeking for a great warrior, but instead he finds a tiny little frog thing who turns out to be powerful in ways Luke hadn't considered. That's the point of the scene and Yoda's appearance: the Force is something greater than just physical strength.
You realise the whole point of the complaint is that none of that makes sense with his appearance in the OT, right? Where he basically dismisses the lightsaber as useless, because the Force is a more potent ally?
The whole purpose of his appearance is that he's this tiny frail guy who's a fucking Jedi Master. Not that he needs to flip around to go all crazy action-movie man, but that he doesn't need to be crazy action-movie man at all.
The entire point is that his physical stature is unimportant. Not because the force can compensate for it in a fight, but because he doesn't need to fight like that.
Exactly. Luke goes seeking for a great warrior, but instead he finds a tiny little frog thing who turns out to be powerful in ways Luke hadn't considered. That's the point of the scene and Yoda's appearance: the Force is something greater than just physical strength.
It's bacteria, you guys! The Force is bacteria!
Funny thing, Yoda lifts an X-Wing like nothing and is all "Size matters not".
Then in the PT he's suddenly straining to lift broken columns and flipping out with a lightsaber.
The change is really fucking obvious.
0
Options
DarcsteelWildcardNC United StatesRegistered Userregular
You realise the whole point of the complaint is that none of that makes sense with his appearance in the OT, right? Where he basically dismisses the lightsaber as useless, because the Force is a more potent ally?
The whole purpose of his appearance is that he's this tiny frail guy who's a fucking Jedi Master. Not that he needs to flip around to go all crazy action-movie man, but that he doesn't need to be crazy action-movie man at all.
The entire point is that his physical stature is unimportant. Not because the force can compensate for it in a fight, but because he doesn't need to fight like that.
Exactly. Luke goes seeking for a great warrior, but instead he finds a tiny little frog thing who turns out to be powerful in ways Luke hadn't considered. That's the point of the scene and Yoda's appearance: the Force is something greater than just physical strength.
It's bacteria, you guys! The Force is bacteria!
Funny thing, Yoda lifts an X-Wing like nothing and is all "Size matters not".
Then in the PT he's suddenly straining to lift broken columns and flipping out with a lightsaber.
The change is really fucking obvious.
the tHing that gets me about how Yoda is portrayed is in the cartoon network shorts he is seen moving whatever the hell he wants without so much as a gesture. When he rescues the jedi and her padawan that were attacked and buried at a temple, he's lifting boulders out of the way while just standing there. And when he finally did use a hand gesture in the last short its to push several tanks into a troop carrier and then lift that troop carrier into another troop carrier. I really can't see that Yoda giving a good goddamn about Palp throwing council seats at him
the tHing that gets me about how Yoda is portrayed is in the cartoon network shorts he is seen moving whatever the hell he wants without so much as a gesture. When he rescues the jedi and her padawan that were attacked and buried at a temple, he's lifting boulders out of the way while just standing there. And when he finally did use a hand gesture in the last short its to push several tanks into a troop carrier and then lift that troop carrier into another troop carrier. I really can't see that Yoda giving a good goddamn about Palp throwing council seats at him
Pretty sure those weren't considered canon by Lucas in the slightest. Or if they are he just didn't care.
0
Options
DarcsteelWildcardNC United StatesRegistered Userregular
the tHing that gets me about how Yoda is portrayed is in the cartoon network shorts he is seen moving whatever the hell he wants without so much as a gesture. When he rescues the jedi and her padawan that were attacked and buried at a temple, he's lifting boulders out of the way while just standing there. And when he finally did use a hand gesture in the last short its to push several tanks into a troop carrier and then lift that troop carrier into another troop carrier. I really can't see that Yoda giving a good goddamn about Palp throwing council seats at him
Pretty sure those weren't considered canon by Lucas in the slightest. Or if they are he just didn't care.
Not to argure the point but didnt he use the force crush Windu used on grevious at the end of the shorts as the reason he was so much weaker in the third film. Not that it's a stretch for him to use bits and pieces and say fuck the rest
In all the Wars films, cartoons, comics and novels I've read the Jedi have never been roving magistrates. They're either ambassadors, political advisors, soldiers or spies.
I remember at least once in one of the KOTOR games I was just acting as a detective of sorts. Fighting still happened but that was more because of the game than any expectation of fighting be necessary.
Was that the trial on Manaan? Also in the EU one of the first books written (the 2nd Timonthy Zahn one) has Luke sorting out a dispute in a bar because one of people having the dispute sees he is a jedi and both sides will trust a jedi's judgement. Also when that mad jedi clone trains Luke a bit his "training" is mostly taking Luke around and acting like a magistrate.
In KotOR 1 there was the Manaan trial you mentioned, but there was also that dispute on Dantooine you can resolve during your Jedi training. Maybe Jedi at that time were more likely to be seen as neutral arbiters then in the OT? Luke sorting out the dispute was (IIRC) on some rim world where the Empire's propaganda hadn't destroyed a Jedi's credibility to the extent it had in the more main line worlds. But it's been a while since I've read that book, I could be wrong.
I always thought that Jedi like Yoda or Sith like Palpatine at which point they became a Master were beyond that of a lightsaber, the Force was truly their ally at that point and could be used to do all sorts of things. To give them a lightsaber seems almost to lessen them more then anything.
this. Although really, yoda just shouldn't be fighting at all. Whatever happened to "war not make one great"? Apparently war actually does make one pretty great.
I like this idea. It's got almost a zen kind of feeling to it (that or the nyquil's kicking in). To become a knight you have to custom build one of the most devastating close quarters weapons imaginable and prove yourself equal to wielding it. But to become a master, you have to acknowledge that the weapon you built, the one you've poured so much of your heart and soul into that it's almost a piece of you, is insignificant next to the power of the Force, and then put the weapon away.
Goes along with the "My ally is the force, and a powerful ally it is" thing. In my personal fanon, Yoda doesn't use a saber because he can't, he doesn't use it because for him it'd like fighting with a butter knife made out of nerf.
the tHing that gets me about how Yoda is portrayed is in the cartoon network shorts he is seen moving whatever the hell he wants without so much as a gesture. When he rescues the jedi and her padawan that were attacked and buried at a temple, he's lifting boulders out of the way while just standing there. And when he finally did use a hand gesture in the last short its to push several tanks into a troop carrier and then lift that troop carrier into another troop carrier. I really can't see that Yoda giving a good goddamn about Palp throwing council seats at him
Pretty sure those weren't considered canon by Lucas in the slightest. Or if they are he just didn't care.
Not to argure the point but didnt he use the force crush Windu used on grevious at the end of the shorts as the reason he was so much weaker in the third film. Not that it's a stretch for him to use bits and pieces and say fuck the rest
Other way around actually. IIRC Genndy put in the force crush scene after he found out that Lucas visualized Greivous as an asthmatic bug robot with a flailing windmill style of lightsaber fighting instead of the scary space ninja that Genndy had used up to that point. It was an attempt to tie the animated shorts into the canon of the films.
During the production of Revenge of the Sith, George Lucas came into work one day with a cough, and decided that it would be amusing to record it and use it on the new Episode III villain.
In all the Wars films, cartoons, comics and novels I've read the Jedi have never been roving magistrates. They're either ambassadors, political advisors, soldiers or spies.
I remember at least once in one of the KOTOR games I was just acting as a detective of sorts. Fighting still happened but that was more because of the game than any expectation of fighting be necessary.
Was that the trial on Manaan? Also in the EU one of the first books written (the 2nd Timonthy Zahn one) has Luke sorting out a dispute in a bar because one of people having the dispute sees he is a jedi and both sides will trust a jedi's judgement. Also when that mad jedi clone trains Luke a bit his "training" is mostly taking Luke around and acting like a magistrate.
In KotOR 1 there was the Manaan trial you mentioned, but there was also that dispute on Dantooine you can resolve during your Jedi training. Maybe Jedi at that time were more likely to be seen as neutral arbiters then in the OT? Luke sorting out the dispute was (IIRC) on some rim world where the Empire's propaganda hadn't destroyed a Jedi's credibility to the extent it had in the more main line worlds. But it's been a while since I've read that book, I could be wrong.
I always thought that Jedi like Yoda or Sith like Palpatine at which point they became a Master were beyond that of a lightsaber, the Force was truly their ally at that point and could be used to do all sorts of things. To give them a lightsaber seems almost to lessen them more then anything.
this. Although really, yoda just shouldn't be fighting at all. Whatever happened to "war not make one great"? Apparently war actually does make one pretty great.
I like this idea. It's got almost a zen kind of feeling to it (that or the nyquil's kicking in). To become a knight you have to custom build one of the most devastating close quarters weapons imaginable and prove yourself equal to wielding it. But to become a master, you have to acknowledge that the weapon you built, the one you've poured so much of your heart and soul into that it's almost a piece of you, is insignificant next to the power of the Force, and then put the weapon away.
Goes along with the "My ally is the force, and a powerful ally it is" thing. In my personal fanon, Yoda doesn't use a saber because he can't, he doesn't use it because for him it'd like fighting with a butter knife made out of nerf.
I agree with this but not what Pi says. "war not make one great" sounds like the words of a man who learned the pointlessness and sorrow of war.
Yeah I always imagined Yoda as being more of a spiritual leader. The Emperor too. His way of using the force is certainly powerful- it can change the minds of billions of people- but using it as a literal weapon just cheapens him. Especially making him the most powerful warrior in the entire galaxy. It's like making a religious movie where the big climax is a swordfight between Jesus and Mohammed.
Also, the point was to show Yoda kicking ass and being cool. Which it undoubtedly did. The whole complaint is basically a really geeky Star Wars nerd sitting through a bad movie, then looking at one of the only good scenes and trying to rationalize it as being bad by going "But MY CANON!" while not understanding the mechanics behind even wielding a real life weapon. Never mind what would happen if you took the logic of the universe in question, and the logical deductions of what would happen if you tried to wield a weapon with its own set of fantasy rules and requirements to use without dismembering something.
Except it took Yoda, the great and wise Jedi Master and turned him into a Coked out candy raver on a hippity hop going nuts with a glow stick. It was not Yoda kicking ass and being cool. Yoda has no reason to "kick ass and be cool" because the great and wise Jedi Master Yoda should not be dicking around and "showing off" to "redeem a student by showing them how outmatched they are". You know what would have been better? Yoda walking in and completely decimating him with the force, or if you really have to have your glowstick duel Yoda cutting him down in about 8 seconds.
Really though the problem with lightsabers goes back to the original trilogy where Lucas made up this awesome weapon but had absolutely no idea how either an actual sword is used, let alone how a fighting style involving a near weightless blade capable of cutting through anything would actually be used. Luke gets a pass, the extent of his lightsaber training was "here use your psychic powers to block stun bolts." Hell the whole point of the exercise was completely mental, wielding the lightsaber was just fluff. So we have a complete amateur with no real idea what he is doing wielding a weapon with almost no formal training, of course he swung the thing around like a baseball bat. Even the duel between Obi-wan and Vader it ends very quickly. Both sides take a couple of half hearted swings, more designed to feel each other out than anything before Obi-wan demonstrates that as a Jedi master he has grown beyond fighting with glowsticks. Do you think Vader felt like he won that encounter?
When it came time for the prequel trilogy rather than sitting down and developing how lightsabers would actually be used in combat against opponents who had spent years training to fight with them Lucas decided to go for what is flashy, as opposed to what is effective. Worse it was a flashy style based around the flailings of a complete rank amateur twenty years ago. As opposed to fights that would realistically last several seconds in Lucas's version of lightsaber combat flashier = better. So when it came time for size matters not Master Yoda to appear on screen he had to be as flashy as possible otherwise how could we as the audience be expected to understand just how awesome Yoda is. Which is where suspension of disbelief breaks down. Yoda came off more like the world champion of the lightsaber special olympics than a master duelist in a sport where size matters not.
You want to mention real life weapons take a look at rapier or saber fights. Hell to a degree find some videos on youtube of some masters of the longsword going at it. Nobody is wailing on each other for 30+ minutes.
0
Options
ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
edited January 2012
He pretty much was "decimating him with the force" already. I don't know why you think he wasn't. Going off of the movies alone he caught Sith lightning, the shit that ruined Luke in five seconds flat after three movies of action and adventure and extinguished it like it was a tiny little flame in the palm of his hand. What the fuck more do you want him to do? Spout off some vague backwards statement prophesying how he's going to beat down Dooku with his mental powers before doing so, like he's in some sort of anime? There is a limit to what they can show in the medium without it coming off as terrible.
And yeah, going off of the novels Yoda's a bit more complex then "sage Jedi master who cannot or will not fight". There's an entire novel dedicated to the whole Dooku/Yoda thing. Dooku is trying to turn Yoda, while Yoda is trying to redeem Dooku. Dooku promptly stops trying to turn Yoda to the dark side, when he sees a vision of him in the force. Turns out that even if he could (Turns out Dooku has neither the skill or capability to turn Yoda. Nor does Palps.), Yoda as a dark sider would basically fuck the entire galaxy into an eternal downwards spiral that Palps wishes he could achieve, since it'd be him taking the kids gloves off when dealing with any given threat and having the power and lack of restraint that the dark side would give him.
Also, I don't recall him wailing on him for thirty minutes. You seem to have your movies confused, or are trying to intertwine a scene in an entirely different movie with a completely different scene, which is irrelevant to the argument. The saber was out for maybe thirty seconds before the fight ended. And that was because Dooku was pretty obviously outclassed in every way possible, and decided to end it rather smartly by trying to drop the place on the other knight's heads.
I doubt any of this is going to actually matter, though. I found Attack of the Clones to be a downright terrible movie, but I couldn't find any fault with that one scene. It made sense, internally, and it appealed to the crowds. Which was evident from the crowd at the movie theater, which, going by the way there was some cheering (After sitting through Senator Midriff Amidala, and the godawful writing of the movie, which came as a relief.) went over well with them. It sounds like some people just don't want to give credit to it.
Posts
I'd become a bounty hunter.
So I recently read an interview with Lucas about why he keeps changing his movies despite the fanboys never-ending nerd rage. Apparently he views his devoted fans like he viewed the big movie companies; as meddlesome, interfering pricks who just want to fuck with his vision. Basically the reason he keeps changing things is because, for all intents and purposes, he wants to piss them off.
At first I felt I lost a little respect for him, but then I was like "They're just movies... and he makes them. His movie, his decisions."
The Apocalypse Has Never Been More Fun
Secret Satan Wishlist!! Thinkgeek Wish List
The Jedi are Warrior-Monks, with an emphasis on the monk part. To use the force effectivly requires a deep spiritual connection, without it they are crap warriors brining a lightsaber to a blasterfight. Thats why they wear robes and also why people hand over their children to the order.
Its not like its unusual, both the west and the east have traditions of monastic orders recruting children. The Shaolin monks of China would be a great example, one that actualy trained in martial arts and fought in times of crisis. The current Chinese Red Army have several soldiers that trained with the reborn Shaolin temple while children.
I know, right?
This is a character that needs to exist, if only because it's so obvious. A guy or girl who can read minds and manipulate physics, but possessed a flexible moral compass and a penchant for the finer things in life, would be a pretty rad character to see in action.
It must be different environments. But I'm saying this as someone from a country with the draft, and where guns are only allowed to be owned by the indigenous.
It's not the five year olds that are fucked up, so much as the fourteen year olds who are flying bombers and chopping off arms, like Ashoka. Hence the Suvorovets example.
Wouldn't the flexible moral compass make you a grey Jedi or a Sith? I thought Jedi morality was supposed to be very strict or they risk falling to the dark side.
I don't think he intends to piss of his fans (Who does?). The personal viewpoint of his explicated in the NYT article just seems to conflict with most peoples desires regarding Star Wars.
Steam: CavilatRest
I was still just referring to the kids training with what may or may not have been real light sabers.
Sending their kids to war is pretty awful in and of itself, yes.
One of my favorite statements on George Lucas and Star Wars actually comes, believe it or not, from the Gamecube title Viewtiful Joe. As you progress in the game it becomes very on the nose about portraying an allegory about a frustrated, isolated movie visionary who became a victim of his own success, and his one true fan fighting through the very movies that served as their bond between director and audience. Movies with Tie Fighters in them.
And while this would be pretty horrific it would also be pretty cool.
Yoda having a lightsaber means he has to employ a fighting style that compensates for the fact that he's two feet tall. This means that size matters. If a fifteen foot tall monster could become a Jedi or a Sith, his lightsaber would be the size of a tree, and he could still theoretically use the Force to leapfrog around just like Yoda does. This makes him far more likely to win in a fight against Yoda, once again due to his size.
Since someone mentioned it in Coruscant Nights it turns out there is another "sect" of Jedi out there, I can't remember if they were considered grey Jedi or not but what made them so unique was that they used the Force to enhance their abilities with a good ol fashion pistol then a lightsaber.
Plinkett makes some good points. But he also nit-picks needlessly and misrepresents to build a larger critique against whatever he's ranting against. To that end, he's pretty over-rated, I think.
Case in point. Yoda did not have a smaller lightsaber because he is smaller. He had a smaller lightsaber because him with a bigger lightsaber would have looked goofy as hell. Star Wars does adhere to the rule of aesthetic coolness and pragmatism. And size or not, it would have been pretty frigging obnoxious to swing. Nevermind awkward to watch.
A normal sword has a good amount of weight to it. A lightsaber is basically a sword that can cut through metal like steel, and has intense centrifugal forces to wield, meaning it's a bitch to even hold it properly. If Yoda wanted to use a bigger sword, he'd basically have to be throwing telekinesis onto the thing constantly to counter-balance it, past a certain size. He could certainly do it, but it'd be pointless, ostentatious, and basically the equivalent of him swinging his dick around, saying "Yeah, i'm that awesome". Which is very un-Jedi.
Also, Yoda pretty obviously was handing Dooku his ass with the Force alone, before he decided to go for the coup de grace with the saber. And his "style" is pretty damn unique, too. It's basically what happens when you give a midget ninja telepathic and prescient powers. Which, going off of the movie means that yeah, size didn't really matter. Dooku's supposed to be the greatest sword fighter of the order at the time. Yoda's probably the greatest force user. It's a battle of skill. And it wouldn't be past a Jedi to try and redeem a student by showing them that they're out-matched. You can do all the flipping you want, but if your opponent can see it coming in his mind, it really doesn't matter. So that complaint really doesn't make any sense.
Also, the point was to show Yoda kicking ass and being cool. Which it undoubtedly did. The whole complaint is basically a really geeky Star Wars nerd sitting through a bad movie, then looking at one of the only good scenes and trying to rationalize it as being bad by going "But MY CANON!" while not understanding the mechanics behind even wielding a real life weapon. Never mind what would happen if you took the logic of the universe in question, and the logical deductions of what would happen if you tried to wield a weapon with its own set of fantasy rules and requirements to use without dismembering something.
so really a longer blade wouldn't be any more unwieldy than a short blade. and if you've ever waved a flashlight around pretending it was a lightsaber, you've pretty much nailed the experience minus the inevitable dismemberment
There's some comment on wookiepedia I read about how the light is projected and stopped at the tip via some sort of centrifugal force or something, and that's why normal people can't wield lightsabers. Because it'd throw them off half the time and they'd probably hack their arm off in a fight with someone who knew what they were doing.
Basically, it's a justification on why you don't see people just running around with swords that can cut through steel like it's nothing. But it also ties into a bunch of other stuff too, apparently. Like how Jedi and Sith operate.
It is a tad bit arrogant for him to act like he was personally responsible for everything in Star Wars that made it a huge success.
I hope you worked off some of that anger in the angry dome before posting, Farnsworth. Hate to see what the original post would have been like otherwise.
The quote, for reference:
Took me two minutes to get it.
Edit: The logic behind lightsabers makes my head hurt.
Lasers do not work that way!
So, what you're saying is, Yoda had a smaller ligthsaber because he is smaller.
If you want to ignore everything else that I posted, then sure.
The slippery slope of this argument is a movie where opposing Jedi walk into a room, pause, shake hands and congratulate each other on their decisive win in the battle that didn't need to take place.
PSN - sumowot
Lasers do not work that way![/quote]
I also like the term learn implying mistakes were made. "Didn't freeze it that time, sorry 'bout your arm. Let's have another go"
PSN - sumowot
You realise the whole point of the complaint is that none of that makes sense with his appearance in the OT, right? Where he basically dismisses the lightsaber as useless, because the Force is a more potent ally?
The whole purpose of his appearance is that he's this tiny frail guy who's a fucking Jedi Master. Not that he needs to flip around to go all crazy action-movie man, but that he doesn't need to be crazy action-movie man at all.
The entire point is that his physical stature is unimportant. Not because the force can compensate for it in a fight, but because he doesn't need to fight like that.
Exactly. Luke goes seeking for a great warrior, but instead he finds a tiny little frog thing who turns out to be powerful in ways Luke hadn't considered. That's the point of the scene and Yoda's appearance: the Force is something greater than just physical strength.
Funny thing, Yoda lifts an X-Wing like nothing and is all "Size matters not".
Then in the PT he's suddenly straining to lift broken columns and flipping out with a lightsaber.
The change is really fucking obvious.
the tHing that gets me about how Yoda is portrayed is in the cartoon network shorts he is seen moving whatever the hell he wants without so much as a gesture. When he rescues the jedi and her padawan that were attacked and buried at a temple, he's lifting boulders out of the way while just standing there. And when he finally did use a hand gesture in the last short its to push several tanks into a troop carrier and then lift that troop carrier into another troop carrier. I really can't see that Yoda giving a good goddamn about Palp throwing council seats at him
Pretty sure those weren't considered canon by Lucas in the slightest. Or if they are he just didn't care.
Not to argure the point but didnt he use the force crush Windu used on grevious at the end of the shorts as the reason he was so much weaker in the third film. Not that it's a stretch for him to use bits and pieces and say fuck the rest
I like this idea. It's got almost a zen kind of feeling to it (that or the nyquil's kicking in). To become a knight you have to custom build one of the most devastating close quarters weapons imaginable and prove yourself equal to wielding it. But to become a master, you have to acknowledge that the weapon you built, the one you've poured so much of your heart and soul into that it's almost a piece of you, is insignificant next to the power of the Force, and then put the weapon away.
Goes along with the "My ally is the force, and a powerful ally it is" thing. In my personal fanon, Yoda doesn't use a saber because he can't, he doesn't use it because for him it'd like fighting with a butter knife made out of nerf.
That is ridiculously lame.
Agreed.
*facepalm*
I agree with this but not what Pi says. "war not make one great" sounds like the words of a man who learned the pointlessness and sorrow of war.
Except it took Yoda, the great and wise Jedi Master and turned him into a Coked out candy raver on a hippity hop going nuts with a glow stick. It was not Yoda kicking ass and being cool. Yoda has no reason to "kick ass and be cool" because the great and wise Jedi Master Yoda should not be dicking around and "showing off" to "redeem a student by showing them how outmatched they are". You know what would have been better? Yoda walking in and completely decimating him with the force, or if you really have to have your glowstick duel Yoda cutting him down in about 8 seconds.
Really though the problem with lightsabers goes back to the original trilogy where Lucas made up this awesome weapon but had absolutely no idea how either an actual sword is used, let alone how a fighting style involving a near weightless blade capable of cutting through anything would actually be used. Luke gets a pass, the extent of his lightsaber training was "here use your psychic powers to block stun bolts." Hell the whole point of the exercise was completely mental, wielding the lightsaber was just fluff. So we have a complete amateur with no real idea what he is doing wielding a weapon with almost no formal training, of course he swung the thing around like a baseball bat. Even the duel between Obi-wan and Vader it ends very quickly. Both sides take a couple of half hearted swings, more designed to feel each other out than anything before Obi-wan demonstrates that as a Jedi master he has grown beyond fighting with glowsticks. Do you think Vader felt like he won that encounter?
When it came time for the prequel trilogy rather than sitting down and developing how lightsabers would actually be used in combat against opponents who had spent years training to fight with them Lucas decided to go for what is flashy, as opposed to what is effective. Worse it was a flashy style based around the flailings of a complete rank amateur twenty years ago. As opposed to fights that would realistically last several seconds in Lucas's version of lightsaber combat flashier = better. So when it came time for size matters not Master Yoda to appear on screen he had to be as flashy as possible otherwise how could we as the audience be expected to understand just how awesome Yoda is. Which is where suspension of disbelief breaks down. Yoda came off more like the world champion of the lightsaber special olympics than a master duelist in a sport where size matters not.
You want to mention real life weapons take a look at rapier or saber fights. Hell to a degree find some videos on youtube of some masters of the longsword going at it. Nobody is wailing on each other for 30+ minutes.
And yeah, going off of the novels Yoda's a bit more complex then "sage Jedi master who cannot or will not fight". There's an entire novel dedicated to the whole Dooku/Yoda thing. Dooku is trying to turn Yoda, while Yoda is trying to redeem Dooku. Dooku promptly stops trying to turn Yoda to the dark side, when he sees a vision of him in the force. Turns out that even if he could (Turns out Dooku has neither the skill or capability to turn Yoda. Nor does Palps.), Yoda as a dark sider would basically fuck the entire galaxy into an eternal downwards spiral that Palps wishes he could achieve, since it'd be him taking the kids gloves off when dealing with any given threat and having the power and lack of restraint that the dark side would give him.
Also, I don't recall him wailing on him for thirty minutes. You seem to have your movies confused, or are trying to intertwine a scene in an entirely different movie with a completely different scene, which is irrelevant to the argument. The saber was out for maybe thirty seconds before the fight ended. And that was because Dooku was pretty obviously outclassed in every way possible, and decided to end it rather smartly by trying to drop the place on the other knight's heads.
I doubt any of this is going to actually matter, though. I found Attack of the Clones to be a downright terrible movie, but I couldn't find any fault with that one scene. It made sense, internally, and it appealed to the crowds. Which was evident from the crowd at the movie theater, which, going by the way there was some cheering (After sitting through Senator Midriff Amidala, and the godawful writing of the movie, which came as a relief.) went over well with them. It sounds like some people just don't want to give credit to it.