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In all the cantinas in all the world, why'd [Star Wars] have to walk into mine?

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  • reVersereVerse Never odd or even Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    Archonex wrote:
    He pretty much was "decimating him with the force" already.

    Uh, no. The characters flat out state that they're evenly matched with the Force and that's why they decide to settle the fight with the lightsabers. "Evenly matched" isn't anywhere near "decimating".

    edit: Rewatching the scene, the actual line is "It is obvious that this fight cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber". Still, Yoda was doing absolutely no decimating.

    Also, I don't know where you get this "Dooku was obviously outclassed" from because it sure as hell isn't from the movie. Dooku doesn't show any signs of "being obviously outclassed". Their force fight ends in a stalemate and their saber fight ends in a stalemate.

    edit2: You know, rewatching that scene after all these years, it's really lame. I liked it as the silly little action scene that it was when I first saw it, but now... ugh. It's such a cheap scene. A lame force fight where an old man waves his hands at a CGI puppet and then the puppet jumps about a bit with a lightsaber in hand. Ugh.

    reVerse on
  • DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    Worse yet it is almost a freaking courtesy that Dooku parries any of Yoda's swings as they physically would not have reached his legs anyway. I think at max yoda took two credible swings at Dooku, and the rest of the time just looked like a little kid flailing about at a target well beyond his reach.

    If I was kidnapped, woke up in a lab, told they were going to replace my vocal cords with those of Tony Jay, and lock me in a sound booth until the day I die I would look those bastards right in the eye and say "Alright you sons of bitches lets do this. This one is for the children."
  • QuidQuid The Fifth Horseman Registered User regular
    The light saber fights overall are terrible. I certainly expect a certain amount of flash in any movie fight, but God damn all of them in the prequels were just ridiculously over the top acrobatics displays that coincidentally involved holding swords.

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  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    If were going to talk about terrible lightsaber fights why are we wasting our time with the Yoda fight when the Lava fight is right there and fifty-times as bad? And that's just comparing the length.

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  • BehemothBehemoth Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    I don't think anyone is going to disagree that the scene was crowd-pleasing the moment. The problem with it has nothing to do with that, and it's not the sort of thing that can be explained away with "well, in the novels...."

    It just doesn't make sense if you actually go by what we know about Yoda from the earlier films. He never uses a lightsaber. He denigrates the lightsaber as an inferior way of dealing with things. He's not teaching Luke to leap around like a frog with the force. He's just a different kind of character, being shoved into a lightsaber fight because, hey, why not?

    Really, this just speaks to the larger problem of the prequels where lightsaber fights were used as short-hand for "force-user" when that simply wasn't the case in the original films. Yoda and the Emperor were the most powerful force users we saw, and they never used them. There are better ways to show people like this fighting than with the same flashy lightsaber fights that everyone else is doing. Have them destroy entire buildings, show the Emperor shooting giant bolts of lightning, have it be amazing and dramatic. Show the true power of the force.

    If anything, the prequels kind of ruin the force by showing how weak it is. Besides Palpatine's apparent mental manipulation of the ENTIRE GALAXY, they don't really allow Jedi/Sith to do much besides throwing big pieces of machinery around and maybe shooting some sparks. Hell, you could design a droid that could do that. Anti-gravity exists in the Star Wars universe, give it a manipulator and big taser and boom, Jedi-bot.

    Come to think of it, Palpatine's lightning is a good example. In the original film, it's this demonstration of his awesome power that shows how he can defeat Luke at any time if he wants to without resorting to something as crude as a lightsaber. In the prequels, it can be deflected by a lightsaber. We never see it actually work on anyone, except, well, himself, where it doesn't even do what it did in the scene in Jedi. If he tried to use it on Yoda, and it didn't work, but after we saw him destroy a bunch of regular Jedi with it, that would have been dramatically effective and logical.

    Behemoth on
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  • QuidQuid The Fifth Horseman Registered User regular
    Oh because I am making it clear they're all terrible. The sheer amount of frivolous movement displayed by everyone all the time is ridiculous.

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  • QuidQuid The Fifth Horseman Registered User regular
    Also, upon reading more about Grey Jedi/Potentiums I'd really like to see more of them. Even if the official canon is they're wrong. Cause the canon for that is dumb.

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  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    Quid wrote:
    The light saber fights overall are terrible. I certainly expect a certain amount of flash in any movie fight, but God damn all of them in the prequels were just ridiculously over the top acrobatics displays that coincidentally involved holding swords.

    Eh, the fights in TPM were okay. It helps having an actual martial artist and actors physically able to keep up.

    The fights in AotC were embarrassing. CG Christopher Lee vs. CG flippy-do Yoda was just bad.

    The ending fight in RotS lasted way too long, and was pretty boring overall.

    One of the problems with all of them is not just that they're too over the top, but also that they're filmed far too tightly to the actors. The best fight segment in the prequels is Obi-Wan vs. Maul after Qui-Gon is skewered. It's filmed closest to the way the fights in the OT were filmed, where you can see all the moves clearly and get a sense of the fighters' positioning.

    That said, my biggest gripe is that hardly any of the PT fights tell a story. The three OT fights, especially the two Luke vs. Vader duels, actually served a dramatic purpose. We could see Vader's strength (fighting almost entirely one-handed in the ESB fight), Luke's fear, etc. In the PT, they feel like boss battles in a video game. They don't reveal anything about the characters. Instead, they're a paint-by-numbers conflict resolver. "It's the end of the film, time for a duel."

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  • BersheliBersheli Registered User
    Behemoth wrote:

    It just doesn't make sense if you actually go by what we know about Yoda from the earlier films. He never uses a lightsaber. He denigrates the lightsaber as an inferior way of dealing with things. He's not teaching Luke to leap around like a frog with the force. He's just a different kind of character, being shoved into a lightsaber fight because, hey, why not?

    Oh yeah! Then how come Yoda is in Soul Calibur??? OoOOOOo BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

  • Alfred J. KwakAlfred J. Kwak Registered User
    edited January 2012
    episode 3 truly had the best light saber fight
    Spoiler:

    Alfred J. Kwak on
  • QuidQuid The Fifth Horseman Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    Just rewatched Maul vs. Kenobi/Jinn and I can't find satisfaction. For some reason Maul insists on doing side flips for no apparent reason. He'll back off, several feet away, and then side flip while completely out of reach.

    Also, the end of the duel is incredibly ironic in light of the post above this one.

    Quid on
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  • reVersereVerse Never odd or even Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    So, Obi-Wan learns that not swinging upwards when someone jumps over you can be deadly when he defeats Maul, and this lesson allows him to defeat Anakin in Episode 3.

    But he learns the lesson in such a dumbshit way. Wouldn't it be much more sensible if, say, Qui-Gon attempted to jump over Maul and Maul sliced him to pieces, and Obi-Wan saw that and was like "shit that's not a smart thing to do". Instead he learns the lesson (if you can even call it that) because Maul is too dumb to swing upwards? It's just really fucking dumb.

    reVerse on
  • QuidQuid The Fifth Horseman Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    So dumb.

    Edit: You see Maul with the dipshit "Oh hey, this guy is leaping over my head" look. It's retarded.

    Quid on
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  • reVersereVerse Never odd or even Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    Best fight in the prequels: Obi-Wan versus Jango Fett on the rainy planet. They're fucking punching each other and getting all physical and then they slide and almost fall! I especially like the part where, after the fight, Jango very very carefully inches himself to the edge to see that Obi-Wan's really gone. The physical acting there, the body language of the fear of accidentally slipping off this rainslick piece of metal, is some of the best acting in the prequels.

    reVerse on
  • AtomikaAtomika YOU ARE COMPLETELY DISREGARDING THE LABOR THEORY OF VALUE YOU ARE A BARNACLERegistered User regular
    I've always wondered why someone who had an insanely powerful weapon like a lightsaber and the telekinetic powers of the The Force would ever get into a weird ballet-style fight with an opponent who was trying to kill you. I can just visualize that training sequence at the academy:


    Yoda: "Now, my youngling, coming to murder you, your enemy is. Your only ally is The Force and your weapon. To defend yourself, how do you?"

    Padawan: "Uh . . . crush him with The Force, rain down a thousand boulders on him, and then walk away slowly like a pimp?"

    Yoda: "No, no, no! Could not be more wrong, you are! As always, the answer is: Pirouette! Petite Allegro! Brise! And Pirouette again! *sigh* Not ready for deadly, efficient combat are you."

  • DecomposeyDecomposey Registered User regular
    I've always wondered why someone who had an insanely powerful weapon like a lightsaber and the telekinetic powers of the The Force would ever get into a weird ballet-style fight with an opponent who was trying to kill you. I can just visualize that training sequence at the academy:


    Yoda: "Now, my youngling, coming to murder you, your enemy is. Your only ally is The Force and your weapon. To defend yourself, how do you?"

    Padawan: "Uh . . . crush him with The Force, rain down a thousand boulders on him, and then walk away slowly like a pimp?"

    Yoda: "No, no, no! Could not be more wrong, you are! As always, the answer is: Pirouette! Petite Allegro! Brise! And Pirouette again! *sigh* Not ready for deadly, efficient combat are you."

    So what you're saying is that this whole Jedi vs Sith thing is just West Side Story with better graphics for the dancefights.

    Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, I feel I should warn you: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
  • Alfred J. KwakAlfred J. Kwak Registered User
    edited January 2012
    must be a side effect of the midi-chlorians

    Alfred J. Kwak on
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  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    So the Force actually teaches Fencing? There's no Force Punching like Jack in ME2?

    Cantido on
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  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    Hell, that's even how Luke "wins" in ROTJ...he throws down the lightsaber. Granted, it appears that it would have helped him deflect the force lightning, but that arguably would not have helped him redeem Vader.

    And back on the training of the kids...it's been a while so I don't quite remember, but if all these kids are deflecting shots from the remotes, aren't the kids in more "danger" from the deflections than original shots?

    Oh, and: "When you're a Sith you're a Sith all the way, From your first lightsaber To your last dying day."

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  • MagicPrimeMagicPrime "We're ready to believe you..." FireSideWizardRegistered User regular
    That is what I hated. They equated Power in the Force with Lightsaber Prowess.

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  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    Yoda: "Stopped they must be. On this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil."

    Nope, don't see the word "lightsaber" in there.

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  • override367override367 misogynist/MRA/socially irresponsible Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    MagicPrime wrote:
    That is what I hated. They equated Power in the Force with Lightsaber Prowess.

    Lucas turned force power into fucking power level from dragonball z where it measures your physical abilities as well

    its retarded

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  • MagicPrimeMagicPrime "We're ready to believe you..." FireSideWizardRegistered User regular
    If you are the most powerful Force user that shouldn't mean you are automatically the greatest lightsaber fighter in the galaxy and vice versa.

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  • DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    Reading the Star War wikis annoys me. When I played through KOTOR, I got the impression that Revan was probably n0t a bad guy but he just wanted to prepare the galaxy for a threat greater than the Mandalorians.

    But oh no, the Star Wars canon cannot accept grey. All the wikis say "Revan was evil. E-V-I-L."

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  • DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    That's right, but I don't think that KOTOR2 retconned it so much as expanded the notion of what was going on.

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  • LibrarianThorneLibrarianThorne Registered User regular
    reVerse wrote:
    You know what I would do if I was a Jedi?

    I'd become a bounty hunter.

    I know, right?

    This is a character that needs to exist, if only because it's so obvious. A guy or girl who can read minds and manipulate physics, but possessed a flexible moral compass and a penchant for the finer things in life, would be a pretty rad character to see in action.

    Cade Skywalker would like a chat :O

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    reVerse wrote:
    edit: Rewatching the scene, the actual line is "It is obvious that this fight cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber". Still, Yoda was doing absolutely no decimating.
    Which is an odd statement, because skill with a lightsaber is directly tied to a Jedi's knowledge of the Force. The lightsaber is really only a viable weapon when paired with Force abilities. By itself, a lightsaber is much less effective a weapon than a blaster, for the same reasons that modern soliders use assault rifles rather than swords.

    If Yoda and Dooku were so evenly matched in Force abilities, they should have been evenly matched when it comes to a lightsaber duel. Yoda deciding to pull his lightsaber in that context makes little sense.

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  • LibrarianThorneLibrarianThorne Registered User regular
    Honestly, whenever they remake the PT, I hope that Yoda uses Darth Traya's style from KOTOR2. Dooku flourishes his lightsaber obviously challenging Yoda. Yoda sighs, narrows his eyes, and opens his cloak to show three lightsabers hanging on his belt. He'd use the Force to move and fight with the lightsabers, keeping Dooku at bay while Yoda himself ambled over to heal Obi-Wan and Anakin.

    That would've felt more true to the ESB/ROTJ Yoda, I think. He's simply beyond needing to fight with a lightsaber as any of his students would understand it.

    The episode III Yoda/Palpatine fight should have also showed just how evil Palps was, I think. Yoda, on his way to Palp's office in the Senate, sees holovidss of Anakin slaughtering the younglings. The corpse of Mace Windu frozen in carbonite. Perhaps even Count Dooku's head (and really play up that he was Yoda's favored student). Palpatine would disrupt Yoda's serenity without needing the Force at all, leaving Yoda coming into the fight with just a hint of Fear; an emotion that cripples a Jedi. While Palps should, perhaps, be shown as Yoda's equal in the Force the lesson should be that his knowledge of the Jedi and his ability to show exactly what has happened breaks the master of Jedi before lightsabers are drawn or the Force is even used. They may both be masters of the Force, but Palpatine is a master of manipulation and of Fear. That should have been the deciding thing in the fight, not senate seats being hurled through the air.

  • L Ron HowardL Ron Howard Registered User regular
    I liked one of the intro movies in TOR, where a Jedi was using the Force to stop a lightsaber from doing its job. I'd like to think that a master would be unafraid of a lightsaber for that reason.

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  • CenoCeno Chumble spuzz. Registered User regular
    If someone were to remake the PT, they should focus primarily on having one central protagonist. It doesn't have to be a familiar character at all. The story should focus entirely on The Clone Wars, which should be some kind of external invading force of cloned enemies that decimates the Republic, conscripting millions of people into service (storm trooper origin). Then, when our heroes seem to be finally able to overcome this horrific force, they are suddenly betrayed from within.

    Anakin should be a side character in this, just one of many pupils under Obi-wan (who himself could not even play a huge role). His turn to the dark side should be the nail in the coffin. Just a nice loyal relatively unassuming Jedi that suddenly becomes twisted and fucks over the whole galaxy. It keeps the mystery of the Jedi intact, and helps explain why only 20 years later so few even believe they existed. That doesn't happen when they are commanding armies. It also preserves the huge and now utterly meaningless reveal at the end of Empire.

    No one is surprised or disturbed by Anakin's fall in the PT because he's a tormented unlikable asshole from day one. No one cares about the complex reasoning behind his fall. That was explained in one line in the OT.

    "Vader was seduced by the dark side". That's all we need to know.

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  • MagicPrimeMagicPrime "We're ready to believe you..." FireSideWizardRegistered User regular
    edited January 2012
    I think they could have had Obi-Wan be the main character for the prequels. And shown the entire story from his point of view. Rather than jumping around so much.

    The Qui-Gon character should have been Obi-Wans friend rather than Master. And he should have died on Tatooine during Mauls ambush.

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  • DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    I admit, I'm bitter. When I saw the first advertisement for Episode 1 3D for theaters I found myself hoping that it will bomb terribly.

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  • Form of Monkey!Form of Monkey! Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    DoctorArch wrote:
    I admit, I'm bitter. When I saw the first advertisement for Episode 1 3D for theaters I found myself hoping that it will bomb terribly.

    My first reaction was wanting to see that thing. But then I realized that would give George Lucas money. Which would only encourage him.

    But then I thought even more about it, and realized that George Lucas no longer creates or revises according to the demands of the marketplace anyway.

    Even in some hypothetical world where the only Star Wars thing that ever sold were unaltered Laserdiscs, VHS tapes, DVDs, and Blu-rays of the original trilogy, Lucas would reason that he just hasn't created something else that consumers would like yet. And we would have still ended up with the second trilogy.

    There is a disconnect between what consumers want and what George Lucas wants to give consumers. Lucas put those concerns in his rearview long ago, and we are no longer able to help inform his creative decisions with our own money.

    So with that in mind, you might as well go see the movie based on whether you think it will be entertaining to you. Be selfish about it, seriously. Consider if seeing it will benefit you, if it will entertain you for a few hours, and try to ignore all other considerations. Lucas doesn't need our money, his recent creative endeavors have made that much clear. But maybe a 3D dogfight in space would be badass to see?

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  • pirateluigipirateluigi Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote:
    I'm curious to hear if 3D adds anything.

    I'd be shocked if it did. Post-prod 3D is never as good and to really excel the movie has to have been shot with 3D in mind.

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  • DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    A New Hope and Return of the Jedi would be truly sweet to watch in 3D, but then again, post-production, so ehhhhhh....might not be too good.

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  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    DoctorArch wrote:
    I admit, I'm bitter. When I saw the first advertisement for Episode 1 3D for theaters I found myself hoping that it will bomb terribly.

    I have to say the same thing. Not because I hated the prequel trilogy, but because I really hate movies that add 3d so they can tack an extra 3-5 bucks on per ticket. And maybe the 3d PT flopping will put another nail in the 3d gimmick casket.

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  • HeirHeir Registered User regular
    reVerse wrote:
    Best fight in the prequels: Obi-Wan versus Jango Fett on the rainy planet. They're fucking punching each other and getting all physical and then they slide and almost fall! I especially like the part where, after the fight, Jango very very carefully inches himself to the edge to see that Obi-Wan's really gone. The physical acting there, the body language of the fear of accidentally slipping off this rainslick piece of metal, is some of the best acting in the prequels.

    This was definitely my favorite PT fight as well.

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  • CenoCeno Chumble spuzz. Registered User regular
    Heir wrote:
    reVerse wrote:
    Best fight in the prequels: Obi-Wan versus Jango Fett on the rainy planet. They're fucking punching each other and getting all physical and then they slide and almost fall! I especially like the part where, after the fight, Jango very very carefully inches himself to the edge to see that Obi-Wan's really gone. The physical acting there, the body language of the fear of accidentally slipping off this rainslick piece of metal, is some of the best acting in the prequels.

    This was definitely my favorite PT fight as well.

    Absolutely. And not a lightsaber to be found. In fact, the second he gets his hands back on his lightsaber, all tension deflates. They were actually punching each other, and there is more emotional investment to be intrinsically found within good ol' fashioned fisticuffs than a meticulously choreographed fight.

    Even when Luke is wielding a saber in ROTJ, it's emotional. He doesn't take Vader down with fluid choreography. He pummels him down to the ground and then chops his goddamn hand off.

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  • AtomikaAtomika YOU ARE COMPLETELY DISREGARDING THE LABOR THEORY OF VALUE YOU ARE A BARNACLERegistered User regular
    Ceno wrote:
    Heir wrote:
    reVerse wrote:
    Best fight in the prequels: Obi-Wan versus Jango Fett on the rainy planet. They're fucking punching each other and getting all physical and then they slide and almost fall! I especially like the part where, after the fight, Jango very very carefully inches himself to the edge to see that Obi-Wan's really gone. The physical acting there, the body language of the fear of accidentally slipping off this rainslick piece of metal, is some of the best acting in the prequels.

    This was definitely my favorite PT fight as well.

    Absolutely. And not a lightsaber to be found. In fact, the second he gets his hands back on his lightsaber, all tension deflates. They were actually punching each other, and there is more emotional investment to be intrinsically found within good ol' fashioned fisticuffs than a meticulously choreographed fight.

    Even when Luke is wielding a saber in ROTJ, it's emotional. He doesn't take Vader down with fluid choreography. He pummels him down to the ground and then chops his goddamn hand off.

    Yeah, Luke wields his saber like Joe Pesci wields a baseball bat in that fight.

  • BeltaineBeltaine The End of TimeRegistered User regular
    Ceno wrote:
    Heir wrote:
    reVerse wrote:
    Best fight in the prequels: Obi-Wan versus Jango Fett on the rainy planet. They're fucking punching each other and getting all physical and then they slide and almost fall! I especially like the part where, after the fight, Jango very very carefully inches himself to the edge to see that Obi-Wan's really gone. The physical acting there, the body language of the fear of accidentally slipping off this rainslick piece of metal, is some of the best acting in the prequels.

    This was definitely my favorite PT fight as well.

    Absolutely. And not a lightsaber to be found. In fact, the second he gets his hands back on his lightsaber, all tension deflates. They were actually punching each other, and there is more emotional investment to be intrinsically found within good ol' fashioned fisticuffs than a meticulously choreographed fight.

    Even when Luke is wielding a saber in ROTJ, it's emotional. He doesn't take Vader down with fluid choreography. He pummels him down to the ground and then chops his goddamn hand off.

    Yeah, Luke wields his saber like Joe Pesci wields a baseball bat in that fight.

    And it is awesome.

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