Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

We play FIGHTING GAMES: Final Round starts this Friday!

19293959798100

Posts

  • MgcwMgcw Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    He didn't actually apologize for the things he said or did

    That's because he's not sorry and he doesn't actually care. It blows my mind that people in the FGC are tiptoeing around Aris and the shit that he did. The only reason I can think for it, which is an incredibly stupid reason, is they don't want to shit on Aris because the reason he could do what he did is ultimately Capcom's fault and they don't want to piss off Capcom. I hope in a few days when the reality of the situation sets in, people will start putting things right.

    Mgcw on
  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    Mgcw wrote: »
    That's because he's not sorry and he doesn't actually care. It blows my mind that people in the FGC are tiptoeing around Aris and the shit that he did. The only reason I can think for it, which is an incredibly stupid reason, is they don't want to shit on Aris because the reason he could do what he did is ultimately Capcom's fault and they don't want to piss off Capcom. I hope in a few days when the reality of the situation sets in, people will start putting things right.

    I disagree..it's not Capcom's fault and no one is worried about Capcom.

    It's because, at its base, the community is still somewhat small and shitting on him could cascade because...well, everyone is connected.

    That doesn't make it right. If someone deserves it, they should be called out on it.

    But, people can be cowards / worried about other things than what's right.

    XBL: Bizazedo
    PSN: Bizazedo
    SC2: Bizazedo.930 (I suck, add me).
  • Folken FanelFolken Fanel J.2C When's KoFRegistered User regular
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    Mgcw wrote: »
    That's because he's not sorry and he doesn't actually care. It blows my mind that people in the FGC are tiptoeing around Aris and the shit that he did. The only reason I can think for it, which is an incredibly stupid reason, is they don't want to shit on Aris because the reason he could do what he did is ultimately Capcom's fault and they don't want to piss off Capcom. I hope in a few days when the reality of the situation sets in, people will start putting things right.

    I disagree..it's not Capcom's fault and no one is worried about Capcom.

    It's because, at its base, the community is still somewhat small and shitting on him could cascade because...well, everyone is connected.

    That doesn't make it right. If someone deserves it, they should be called out on it.

    But, people can be cowards / worried about other things than what's right.

    I'm going to have to disagree with that bolded part.

    It is certainly Capcom's fault. Look.. what Aris did is not acceptable... but Capcom should have known what they were signing up for when they brought Aris on a show. Did they really think he was going to clean up his language or change anything about himself?

    Capcom had the change multiple times to fix a situation that was getting out of hand and chose not to.

    As for the bolded part in Mgcw's quote.... trust me when I say that the player base has no problem shitting all over capcom. People rush out to buy their fighting games and within a week they're raging over the internet because of how unbalanced it is. Check out the g&t marvel thread for a sample of how much crap is there.

  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Yeah, soon as I hit enter I was like "Well, fuck, they didn't vette him properly or properly punish him quickly enough."

    What I meant was I don't think Capcom factors in, at all, with the decision of players in how to treat Aris. He's not a Capcom employee.

    Bizazedo on
    XBL: Bizazedo
    PSN: Bizazedo
    SC2: Bizazedo.930 (I suck, add me).
  • MgcwMgcw Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Yeah, you guys make a good point. I knew when saying it that it didn't sound too solid on my end. My last sentence stands though, I really hope people start putting things right w/ all this.

    Mgcw on
  • WaltWalt Waller Arcane Enchanted Frozen ElectrifiedRegistered User regular
    Plenty of people in the FGC support Miranda, Mike Ross comes to mind. I think it's the vocal minority that backs Aris, or at least backs the idea that people acting like 15 year olds is an acceptable standard for community.

    PSN:GeneiDjinn XBL:Top Hat Panda Steam:Top Hat Panda Battle.net:Walt#1813
  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    Where's the best place to get ASUS monitors?

    XBL: Bizazedo
    PSN: Bizazedo
    SC2: Bizazedo.930 (I suck, add me).
  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    Yes but plenty of people/parties that support Miranda are already trying to move past the issue when the fact is people like Aris are a problem and now is as good of a time to deal with this problem as ever.

    League of Legends: Lamby Cakes | XBox Live: Jon Butters
  • <3&lt;3 Registered User regular
    edited February 2012

    <3 on
  • PandaryuPandaryu Registered User regular
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    Where's the best place to get ASUS monitors?
    I'd say Newegg, but it appears to be sold out. :S

    If you live in Canada, there's Memory Express.

    Steam%20Icon.png Xbox%20Icon.png
  • chamberlainchamberlain Registered User regular
    Nice pants, Marn.

    The list never changes: http://www.infinitebacklog.com
    Chamberlain.jpg
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    there is a bevy of empirical evidence that positive reinforcement is much better at improving performance than negative reinforcement

    know what's better than a harsh community bathed in "mild hostility" where you have to fight to be respected and accepted? a community that is warm, accepting, respectful, and willing to share knowledge and teach you to play and encourage you to continue playing and help you out. it will produce better players, and attract more people, and be a better experience.

    you know, for everyone who isn't a fucking troglodyte clinging to one of the only places they've ever felt they have exclusivity and power in their miserable greasy life.

    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
  • Folken FanelFolken Fanel J.2C When's KoFRegistered User regular
    Pandaryu wrote: »
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    Where's the best place to get ASUS monitors?
    I'd say Newegg, but it appears to be sold out. :S

    If you live in Canada, there's Memory Express.

    Amazon and Buy.com frequently have deals on asus monitors, sometimes requiring mail-in rebates.

  • KnobKnob TURN THE BEAT BACK InternetSuper Moderator, Moderator mod
    I got a decent deal on my asus from amazon

  • KnobKnob TURN THE BEAT BACK InternetSuper Moderator, Moderator mod
    Could there be a correlation between the fact that Japan both owns us for free and still has a thriving arcade culture and the fact that you don't have to get in a dick measuring contest when you go to an arcade

  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    there is a bevy of empirical evidence that positive reinforcement is much better at improving performance than negative reinforcement

    know what's better than a harsh community bathed in "mild hostility" where you have to fight to be respected and accepted? a community that is warm, accepting, respectful, and willing to share knowledge and teach you to play and encourage you to continue playing and help you out. it will produce better players, and attract more people, and be a better experience.

    Um...ok but this is competition we're dealing with here and when in tournament individuals aren't trying to level up the player base they're trying to beat each other.

    League of Legends: Lamby Cakes | XBox Live: Jon Butters
  • TheStigTheStig Registered User regular
    Knob wrote: »
    Could there be a correlation between the fact that Japan both owns us for free and still has a thriving arcade culture and the fact that you don't have to get in a dick measuring contest when you go to an arcade

    Yeah probably. What do they charge per play over there? I stopped going to arcades here after they started charging $1-2 for everything.

    the-place-beyond-the-pines-03_thumb_zps3d4e0ec7.jpg
    360: Sir Stiggleton PSN: Stiggy_PA GFWL: RacerStig Steam: TheStig
  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Butters wrote: »
    there is a bevy of empirical evidence that positive reinforcement is much better at improving performance than negative reinforcement

    know what's better than a harsh community bathed in "mild hostility" where you have to fight to be respected and accepted? a community that is warm, accepting, respectful, and willing to share knowledge and teach you to play and encourage you to continue playing and help you out. it will produce better players, and attract more people, and be a better experience.

    Um...ok but this is competition we're dealing with here and when in tournament individuals aren't trying to level up the player base they're trying to beat each other.

    Pretty much. I mean you want to have fun and you want to play other people who are good.

    But at the end of the day you're trying to win.

    Like I can tell people good game and pat them on the back when they deserve it, I can even give people advice when I can because I like playing good players. But when we're going against each other I'm going to try my hardest to kick their ass...I don't care who they are.
    Knob wrote: »
    Could there be a correlation between the fact that Japan both owns us for free and still has a thriving arcade culture and the fact that you don't have to get in a dick measuring contest when you go to an arcade

    Actually, if you watch Japanese streams I would say they get just if(if not more) hype as American players. I watch BB matches all the time and even though I don't know what they're saying, they do go crazy.

    Also...I would say that arcade failure in America has a lot more to do with logistics and cost effectiveness more than culture. Also, for the most part, the arcade has been slowly on the decline even in Japan in the last few years. To the point where I honestly don't know if it will still be around next decade.

    Dragkonias on
  • XeinosXeinos Registered User regular
    The price of playing in an arcade in Japan was usually based on what you were playing. Street Fighter, Melty Blood and such usually cost 100 yen, if my memory serves. But if you wanted to save your info, you needed to buy a card for the machine. That was around 500 yen, I want to say.

  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    $1.25 per credit? Yeah fuck that and fuck arcades.

    League of Legends: Lamby Cakes | XBox Live: Jon Butters
  • Kuribo's ShoeKuribo's Shoe Kuribo's Stocking North PoleRegistered User regular
    the arcade at my local game store is a quarter for everything

    and they have MK4

    xmassig2.gif
  • B:LB:L Registered User regular
    Can't help but feel like he's full of shit! I can't be the only one who reads this and thinks that.

    Dude didn't change his behavior at all over the course of the week, the behavior backed up the statement. It sounds more like he's sorry that he said the shit he said. Sorry he 'got caught' in other words. "Mild hostility" as a "defining characteristic"? Give me a break.
    What do you mean? According to what I've heard, the harassment was stopped on Day 2, Aris apologized to Miranda on Day 2, and she even tweeted that the situation had been handled.

    What he's been trying to do was explain what his argument was on Day 5 (which you called me a moron for trying to do even though I never supported it :( ). I still think he's not doing a good job of it, but I can't blame him for that as he's not a very articulate person.

    As for hostility being necessary for competition... I wouldn't say it's necessary, but some players thrive off of it. I thrive off of improving my game and getting better, so hostility never really enters my world other than jokingly trash talking with players I know like Rip. Trash talking is actually limited by the rules, and you can't trash talk during matches (too distracting).

    Knob wrote: »
    Could there be a correlation between the fact that Japan both owns us for free and still has a thriving arcade culture and the fact that you don't have to get in a dick measuring contest when you go to an arcade
    Probably causation :P

    There are many factors to why Japan arcades are thriving compared to the US. The main reason is that the money is there. Japan is a very densely populated area, where players from all around could travel to the same arcades easily. This is in contrast to the US where arcades were split between Southern California, Northern California, Texas, and New York. Also they are located in better socioeconomic areas, as arcades in the US were placed with golf lands or seedy areas, so they're more welcoming. The money is also there in sponsorship and tournaments, as they have a strong competitive culture where fighting game matches are actually televised. You can find Japan arcades with nothing but ROWS AND ROWS of well-maintained Street Fighter machines, whereas you'd be lucky to get more than 2 moderately-working SF machines in a US arcade. It's because the monetary environment can support that there while it definitely can't here.

    10mvrci.png click for Anime chat
  • rabblerouserrabblerouser Registered User regular
    I shouldn't care but I can't tell which rivalries are real

  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    there is a bevy of empirical evidence that positive reinforcement is much better at improving performance than negative reinforcement

    know what's better than a harsh community bathed in "mild hostility" where you have to fight to be respected and accepted? a community that is warm, accepting, respectful, and willing to share knowledge and teach you to play and encourage you to continue playing and help you out. it will produce better players, and attract more people, and be a better experience.

    Um...ok but this is competition we're dealing with here and when in tournament individuals aren't trying to level up the player base they're trying to beat each other.

    Aris is saying that acting like a bunch of assholes is good for the community. I'm saying it is actively bad for the community, and that that fact is blindingly obvious if you have even a basic grasp of human behaviour and motivation, which idiots like Aris clearly do not.

    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
  • NogsNogs Crap, crap, mega crap. Registered User regular
    The fact this is even a topic of discussion makes me lose respect for aris.

    Apologies only mean something if you actually apologize. And then only if you take measures to make sure it doesn't happen again.

    rotate.jpg
    PARKER, YOU'RE FIRED! <-- My comic book podcast
  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Butters wrote: »
    there is a bevy of empirical evidence that positive reinforcement is much better at improving performance than negative reinforcement

    know what's better than a harsh community bathed in "mild hostility" where you have to fight to be respected and accepted? a community that is warm, accepting, respectful, and willing to share knowledge and teach you to play and encourage you to continue playing and help you out. it will produce better players, and attract more people, and be a better experience.

    Um...ok but this is competition we're dealing with here and when in tournament individuals aren't trying to level up the player base they're trying to beat each other.

    Aris is saying that acting like a bunch of assholes is good for the community. I'm saying it is actively bad for the community, and that that fact is blindingly obvious if you have even a basic grasp of human behaviour and motivation, which idiots like Aris clearly do not.

    Honestly, at the end of the day I don't think you can say it is a good or bad thing.

    There are some people who like that competitive hostility and who can thrive off of it. There are also people who just want to play without having to deal with that.

    At the end of the day I think the problem most people have is that they think you need to be on either extreme with your mentality towards that. When really, I believe that it is just something that is.



    Dragkonias on
  • B:LB:L Registered User regular
    I shouldn't care but I can't tell which rivalries are real
    It's pretty obvious which rivalries are real. For instance, any rivalry with a REALLY nice guy like Mike Ross or Combofiend are usually not real. A rivalry like Smoothviper and Noel Brown (who really should have been banned from all tournaments) where Noel Brown ended up PUNCHING SmoothViper in the FACE? Yeah that's real.

    Aris is saying that acting like a bunch of assholes is good for the community. I'm saying it is actively bad for the community, and that that fact is blindingly obvious if you have even a basic grasp of human behaviour and motivation, which idiots like Aris clearly do not.
    Something obvious to you and I doesn't necessarily mean it's obvious to everyone, or that they're an idiot for not believing it. From his socioeconomic standpoint and history with fighting games, it was how it was. People were hostile, and some players got good from it. It was what worked for him. Nowadays with the FGC expanding into a more mainstream scene, there should be a cleaner more inviting environment, but it's something unfamiliar to him.

    I'm sure with time he'll acclimate himself to this.

    10mvrci.png click for Anime chat
  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Butters wrote: »
    there is a bevy of empirical evidence that positive reinforcement is much better at improving performance than negative reinforcement

    know what's better than a harsh community bathed in "mild hostility" where you have to fight to be respected and accepted? a community that is warm, accepting, respectful, and willing to share knowledge and teach you to play and encourage you to continue playing and help you out. it will produce better players, and attract more people, and be a better experience.

    Um...ok but this is competition we're dealing with here and when in tournament individuals aren't trying to level up the player base they're trying to beat each other.

    Aris is saying that acting like a bunch of assholes is good for the community. I'm saying it is actively bad for the community, and that that fact is blindingly obvious if you have even a basic grasp of human behaviour and motivation, which idiots like Aris clearly do not.

    We're both in agreement that Aris is an idiot and bad for the community but general "trash talking" is at best a tangential issue. It's not what Aris is being criticized for and it's not what he was quoted as defending. There's plenty of trash talk on the field of a football game among the players but someone yelling "Raper her! Rape her! Rape that bitch!" from the stands doesn't qualify as that. Not to mention anyone doing that in a stadium would likely be removed and possibly arrested.

    Butters on
    League of Legends: Lamby Cakes | XBox Live: Jon Butters
  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Yeah. Really...I can't say fighting game started to blow up until around SF4 as far as these really big gatherings go.

    Not to mention, this is something I honestly find interesting.

    I would say one of the main disconnects I think happens as far as tourney mentalities goes is that you have pre-SF4 players who pretty much came from the more competitive arcadey setting.

    And you have post-SF4 who were probably raised in a more casual or online environment.

    I'm not saying that each person who comes for those settings will have the same outlook. Because I come from the arcade setting and I don't agree with a lot of stuff. But I think that's why you get a lot of miscommunication on both sides. Really...I think it forms some kind of Old School vs. New School mentality that isn't good for anyone.

    Dragkonias on
  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    B:L wrote: »
    I shouldn't care but I can't tell which rivalries are real
    It's pretty obvious which rivalries are real. For instance, any rivalry with a REALLY nice guy like Mike Ross or Combofiend are usually not real. A rivalry like Smoothviper and Noel Brown (who really should have been banned from all tournaments) where Noel Brown ended up PUNCHING SmoothViper in the FACE? Yeah that's real.

    To be fair, didn't SmoothViper grab Noel's wallet, keys, and phone and then throw them across the room?

    League of Legends: Lamby Cakes | XBox Live: Jon Butters
  • RadiusRadius Registered User regular
    I would totally punch a crippled person after that.

  • B:LB:L Registered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Yeah. Really...I can't say fighting game started to blow up until around SF4 as far as these really big gatherings go.

    Not to mention, this is something I honestly find interesting.

    I would say one of the main disconnects I think happens as far as tourney mentalities goes is that you have pre-SF4 players who pretty much came from the more competitive arcadey setting.

    And you have post-SF4 who were probably raised in a more casual or online environment.

    I'm not saying that each person who comes for those settings will have the same outlook. Because I come from the arcade setting and I don't agree with a lot of stuff. But I think that's why you get a lot of miscommunication on both sides. Really...I think it forms some kind of Old School vs. New School mentality that isn't good for anyone.
    I'd hardly call the online environment clean, based on the messages I get when I win :P

    But I don't think the Old School vs New School issue is as pervasive as it seems. Alex Valle is OLD school (but not OLD old school), known to be a shit talker and otherwise vulgar person, and he's cleaned up his act pretty well. You only saw shades of it when he jerked off on camera during Cross Assault.

    But like Biz mentioned, it's growing pains. The community will slowly keep improving itself and it'll only get better from here.

    Butters wrote: »
    B:L wrote: »
    I shouldn't care but I can't tell which rivalries are real
    It's pretty obvious which rivalries are real. For instance, any rivalry with a REALLY nice guy like Mike Ross or Combofiend are usually not real. A rivalry like Smoothviper and Noel Brown (who really should have been banned from all tournaments) where Noel Brown ended up PUNCHING SmoothViper in the FACE? Yeah that's real.

    To be fair, didn't SmoothViper grab Noel's wallet, keys, and phone and then throw them across the room?
    From what I heard SmoothViper did do something to Noel's stuff and did overly trash talk, but getting violent is where I draw the line.

    It was referenced just as an example of a real rivalry.

    10mvrci.png click for Anime chat
  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    B:L wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Yeah. Really...I can't say fighting game started to blow up until around SF4 as far as these really big gatherings go.

    Not to mention, this is something I honestly find interesting.

    I would say one of the main disconnects I think happens as far as tourney mentalities goes is that you have pre-SF4 players who pretty much came from the more competitive arcadey setting.

    And you have post-SF4 who were probably raised in a more casual or online environment.

    I'm not saying that each person who comes for those settings will have the same outlook. Because I come from the arcade setting and I don't agree with a lot of stuff. But I think that's why you get a lot of miscommunication on both sides. Really...I think it forms some kind of Old School vs. New School mentality that isn't good for anyone.
    I'd hardly call the online environment clean, based on the messages I get when I win :P

    But I don't think the Old School vs New School issue is as pervasive as it seems. Alex Valle is OLD school (but not OLD old school), known to be a shit talker and otherwise vulgar person, and he's cleaned up his act pretty well. You only saw shades of it when he jerked off on camera during Cross Assault.

    But like Biz mentioned, it's growing pains. The community will slowly keep improving itself and it'll only get better from here.


    Oh, believe me...I think the online community is a shithole in general and filled with people x10 worse than you would have ever found at an arcade(except for the occasional jackass).

    But thing about online is since it isn't in face to face there is a lot more wiggle room with how you interact with people.

    This guy being a jackass? You can just leave the room and find someone else to play.

    You didn't really have that luxury back in the day(that being said I can't say it was ever really a problem either).

    Dragkonias on
  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    there is a bevy of empirical evidence that positive reinforcement is much better at improving performance than negative reinforcement

    know what's better than a harsh community bathed in "mild hostility" where you have to fight to be respected and accepted? a community that is warm, accepting, respectful, and willing to share knowledge and teach you to play and encourage you to continue playing and help you out. it will produce better players, and attract more people, and be a better experience.

    Um...ok but this is competition we're dealing with here and when in tournament individuals aren't trying to level up the player base they're trying to beat each other.

    Aris is saying that acting like a bunch of assholes is good for the community. I'm saying it is actively bad for the community, and that that fact is blindingly obvious if you have even a basic grasp of human behaviour and motivation, which idiots like Aris clearly do not.

    I think he might be more cognizant of his state of mind than you think. It's bad for the community if you want the community to grow, which I don't think he does. He openly chides the Starcraft 2 community for being too mainstream. He seems to actively be against the evolution of the community, which is why he supports its exclusionary nature.

    bar-cc-1.jpg
  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    You know a lot of people say that but I don't think people don't want the community to grow, so much as they think for them to grow they have to be "boring" like the SC2 community is.

    Which is a little short-sighted, I think people just have to learn that you can still be hype without being offensive.

  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    B:L wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    B:L wrote: »
    I shouldn't care but I can't tell which rivalries are real
    It's pretty obvious which rivalries are real. For instance, any rivalry with a REALLY nice guy like Mike Ross or Combofiend are usually not real. A rivalry like Smoothviper and Noel Brown (who really should have been banned from all tournaments) where Noel Brown ended up PUNCHING SmoothViper in the FACE? Yeah that's real.

    To be fair, didn't SmoothViper grab Noel's wallet, keys, and phone and then throw them across the room?
    From what I heard SmoothViper did do something to Noel's stuff and did overly trash talk, but getting violent is where I draw the line.

    It was referenced just as an example of a real rivalry.

    Yeah but you also threw in "should have been banned" and didn't provide fair context. I saw the video on cross counter. In between rounds Noel grabbed his keys, wallet, and I think his phone and set them on a table next to them or whatever to try and center himself. Then after Viper took the next round he started throwing Noel's stuff while trash talking and though violence isn't acceptable it was certainly predictable. If I throw a drink in some dude's face at a bar I may not deserve a punch in the face but I'm certainly asking for one.

    League of Legends: Lamby Cakes | XBox Live: Jon Butters
  • KnobKnob TURN THE BEAT BACK InternetSuper Moderator, Moderator mod
    I'm really happy to see a lot of new faces in here

    I'm kind of irritated by the suspicion that most of them just came for the drama

  • Big Red TieBig Red Tie a crucified man can't be attached to anything elseRegistered User regular
    yes arete play nova yes
    Butters wrote: »
    I'm tired of talking about this. Hey, @Big Red Tie, I noticed you had trouble with your Dante BnB last night. Apparently some things have changed with Dante and his vanilla BnB's aren't as reliable. Have you seen this?



    Basically he's replacing the post-volcano air play with killer bee and moving into S, clay pigeon, prop shredder, sjc, hammer, etc. I don't know what the damage is but it looks like something that'd be a lot more reliable especially online.

    the connection was underwater
    it still works

    3926 4292 8829
    Beasteh wrote: »
    *おなら*
  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Actually. I lurk here quite a bit. Fighting game threads are kind of dead in G&T and I like hearing people talk about them.

    I just didn't want to butt in on you guys.

    Dragkonias on
  • PandaryuPandaryu Registered User regular
    I'm not here for the drama. I'm here for the Melty Blood. People talk about Melty Blood here, right? Right? ):

    I'll play anyone, I'm a scrub.

    Steam%20Icon.png Xbox%20Icon.png
This discussion has been closed.