As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/
Options
The two-body problem (long distance relationship and phd)
Pure Din
Boston-areaRegistered User regular
Boston-areaRegistered User regular
Never thought I'd be making a relationship thread, but my boyfriend suggested I talk to more people in the hope that I'll change my mind...
I'm in a graduate program for something that's been my dream since I was 16. I'm not going to finish for another three years at least. My boyfriend and I have been together for two and a half years, around the same time I started my program. For the past year and a half he's been working in a city about 1.5-2 hours away, which makes us unhappy but it's more relevant to his interests than any job available out here, and it pays much better which is important because he had nearly 100K in student debt (after 1.5 years at his current job he has paid off nearly half of it).
Up until this point we've made things work, but it's been a struggle. In theory my work is flexible to visit him and work in his city sometimes, but in practice I wasn't able to get the work done being there 1-2 days a week, I went down in standing and nearly got kicked out of my program before I realized that if I didn't put more time into my work instead of my relationship, I was doomed to be miserable in both. Instead, I moved into a larger apartment so that he could visit more often and work from here sometimes, but it's been tough on my finances, and 6-8 hours a week of traveling has been tough on him as well. He also really hates his job, and feels like it doesn't offer enough opportunity to learn and try new things. He spends all his free time reading math textbooks and programming things for fun.
Instead of looking for a new job he decided he wanted to also do a PhD, in the exact same field of research that I'm currently doing mine in. At first I was supportive of this, because I really want him to be happy, and I figured if he went somewhere in Boston or NYC-area I could get through the next three or so years until I finish my degree and then be able to find work somewhere near him. He said he didn't want to go anywhere that would be too far away from me, but I encouraged him to apply to the Boston (1.5 hours) and NYC (4 hours) area schools, as well as a few other places that were a little further, but have connections to my current lab that it wouldn't be out of the question for me to be a visiting student there for a few months a year. He also applied to one place that is far away and not somewhere I could visit, but seemed like a likely shot that he'd actually get into. It's about 8 hour drive away in upstate NY.
However, since it's the same field as me, I also knew that he was not likely to get accepted at most of the phd programs he applied to. His undergrad grades were awful and he only finished because he switched to a liberal arts major with no GPA requirement. His masters degree work (which I am familiar with since he did his masters in the same lab where I'm doing my phd) had a lot of issues due to wasting a lot of time researching and proposing ideas that were not feasible. He would say that a lot of these issues were because he did not get good feedback from his advisor (who is my current phd advisor who I have a really good working relationship with).
He ended up with one offer for a PhD admission, in the place in upstate NY. It's not a school I considered doing my PhD at (a good friend who went there for undergrad said "congratulations, that's a good third-tier university"). But he visited there and he really liked it. I think he would be a lot happier there than at his current job, but he would also be a lot happier at another job (he hasn't applied to any, although he kept saying he would for the past several months). He really wants to go do his PhD there, and he would be fine with being long-distance. I'm not.
We've spent the last year and a half trying to make being in two different states work, and really what's made it tolerable for me was knowing that there was an end in sight. Now I have to deal with the idea that I'll be in my thirties before we can live in the same state again, let alone get married, buy a house, etc. And that's only if it turns out that we can make things work again after 7 or 8 years of being apart. Our first four months were the only time we've ever lived in the same place.
He's on his way back from visiting there right now. We need to talk, but in the past he's said that if I say the relationship can't work at that distance, then he'll pick me over the phd program. My friends have told me that I'm a hypocrite for following my career dreams and not letting him follow his. I want to be happy and I want to spend the rest of my life with him, I just don't want to wait another half decade or more for the rest of my life to begin.
Really the choice whether he stays or goes isn't mine, but the choice whether to stay with him if he goes is, and I don't know what do.
I'm in a graduate program for something that's been my dream since I was 16. I'm not going to finish for another three years at least. My boyfriend and I have been together for two and a half years, around the same time I started my program. For the past year and a half he's been working in a city about 1.5-2 hours away, which makes us unhappy but it's more relevant to his interests than any job available out here, and it pays much better which is important because he had nearly 100K in student debt (after 1.5 years at his current job he has paid off nearly half of it).
Up until this point we've made things work, but it's been a struggle. In theory my work is flexible to visit him and work in his city sometimes, but in practice I wasn't able to get the work done being there 1-2 days a week, I went down in standing and nearly got kicked out of my program before I realized that if I didn't put more time into my work instead of my relationship, I was doomed to be miserable in both. Instead, I moved into a larger apartment so that he could visit more often and work from here sometimes, but it's been tough on my finances, and 6-8 hours a week of traveling has been tough on him as well. He also really hates his job, and feels like it doesn't offer enough opportunity to learn and try new things. He spends all his free time reading math textbooks and programming things for fun.
Instead of looking for a new job he decided he wanted to also do a PhD, in the exact same field of research that I'm currently doing mine in. At first I was supportive of this, because I really want him to be happy, and I figured if he went somewhere in Boston or NYC-area I could get through the next three or so years until I finish my degree and then be able to find work somewhere near him. He said he didn't want to go anywhere that would be too far away from me, but I encouraged him to apply to the Boston (1.5 hours) and NYC (4 hours) area schools, as well as a few other places that were a little further, but have connections to my current lab that it wouldn't be out of the question for me to be a visiting student there for a few months a year. He also applied to one place that is far away and not somewhere I could visit, but seemed like a likely shot that he'd actually get into. It's about 8 hour drive away in upstate NY.
However, since it's the same field as me, I also knew that he was not likely to get accepted at most of the phd programs he applied to. His undergrad grades were awful and he only finished because he switched to a liberal arts major with no GPA requirement. His masters degree work (which I am familiar with since he did his masters in the same lab where I'm doing my phd) had a lot of issues due to wasting a lot of time researching and proposing ideas that were not feasible. He would say that a lot of these issues were because he did not get good feedback from his advisor (who is my current phd advisor who I have a really good working relationship with).
He ended up with one offer for a PhD admission, in the place in upstate NY. It's not a school I considered doing my PhD at (a good friend who went there for undergrad said "congratulations, that's a good third-tier university"). But he visited there and he really liked it. I think he would be a lot happier there than at his current job, but he would also be a lot happier at another job (he hasn't applied to any, although he kept saying he would for the past several months). He really wants to go do his PhD there, and he would be fine with being long-distance. I'm not.
We've spent the last year and a half trying to make being in two different states work, and really what's made it tolerable for me was knowing that there was an end in sight. Now I have to deal with the idea that I'll be in my thirties before we can live in the same state again, let alone get married, buy a house, etc. And that's only if it turns out that we can make things work again after 7 or 8 years of being apart. Our first four months were the only time we've ever lived in the same place.
He's on his way back from visiting there right now. We need to talk, but in the past he's said that if I say the relationship can't work at that distance, then he'll pick me over the phd program. My friends have told me that I'm a hypocrite for following my career dreams and not letting him follow his. I want to be happy and I want to spend the rest of my life with him, I just don't want to wait another half decade or more for the rest of my life to begin.
Really the choice whether he stays or goes isn't mine, but the choice whether to stay with him if he goes is, and I don't know what do.
Pure Din on
0
Posts
The two-body problem is hard enough when you're both at the same institution hoping to end up in the same location once you've finished your doctorates. It's basically impossible when (1) you have to be apart while you're earning the PhDs and (2) you're in the same field and thus would somehow have to find a place with two openings rather than one.
though tycho is right about the job thing. having to get two jobs in the same field is not going to be easy, especially in the same place. while it may seem selfish, if he is willing to make that committement for you, then let him.
What the PhD would offer him would be the chance to get away from the "money money money" attitude of working for a startup, to work with smarter people who value learning things, and to have time to pursue ideas for their own sake. Ignoring the fact that that's only a small part of what I actually do (writing test code, guessing at the file formats for other people's data, writing papers in a way that will please reviewers, explaining to undergrads why they are doing things incorrectly, getting my advisor to sign bits of paper, doing mindnumbing administrative tasks for "departmental service" and so on), I feel like he's basically asking me to hang around while he takes a 6 year vacation from work.
If I wait for him, I'm no better than someone who hangs around while their boyfriend/girlfriend decides to "take a break" and sleep with other people for a while. But inside the academic environment, it's considered normal to have to deal two-body issues, and I'm made out to be the villianess for saying that I don't want that, I don't want to be long-distance for ten years, I don't want to go through all the pain and expense of trying to get pregnant in my late 30s. If it was also his life dream that would be one thing, but he's treating my job like a vacation.
However, that doesn't mean you have to put your life on hold for him. His decision to pursue the program or not should be completely independent of what you want and it's really unfair for him to put this decision on you.
I think you really have to have a serious conversation about the future which, at some level, is a frank conversation about a) whether the relationship is serious enough to be making decisions like this based upon what's better for you two as a unit, and b) whether at the end of the day his or your (or both) careers are going to be the focus of your income in the future (i.e., if you're seriously considering having kids and being a stay-at-home parent, then I think it's a little different). I do agree, though, that at a certain age if a) is true then you have to make these kinds of decisions with at least some geographical consideration for both individuals in mind, since the commonly stated point in the long-distance threads here is true - especially once you're getting into the upper 20's, long-distance relationships really need a short-to-medium term endpoint that works for both people, otherwise you're just floating in the wind.
The best thing may simply be to discuss this and be more explicit in terms of setting geographical boundaries, and re-apply for the next cycle - there's enough schools in NY/Boston that I can't imagine upstate NY is the only possible option, and if it's not something like Cornell or has some particular department that's absolutely essential, I don't really see why you can't find a similar tier school in a place like Boston.
My girlfriend and I are dealing with a long-distance relationship too. And it's difficult because of the fact that my days off work are in the middle of the week, and she still has a few months left before she finishes graduate school. The best advice I can give (though I'm sure you already know since you've been doing it a while) is to communicate often. We talk almost every day, and I only get to visit her about once a month or so. It's tough, but if you really care about someone you can make it work.
To be certain, I do eventually want a family someday* but no I am definitely not and will not ever consider being a stay at home parent (he knows all of this). While I'm not closing off any options just yet, I could see myself being really happy working at a top liberal arts college like the one I went to, where teaching and mentoring undergraduates is something you actually do, and don't just pay lip service to. In which case, taking a post-doc (typically 1, sometimes 2 years in my field) might help me delay going on the job market until my boyfriend graduates, but it wouldn't be such a big boost to my job prospects.
The relationship is serious to the point where he has already made career choices based on what's best for both of us, while my work has suffered a great deal as I've been trying to figure out how to fit my life to better spend time with him. However his choice to go is also my choice to stay, and while true love and compatibility are rare, so is a place that gives at least five years guaranteed funding. He never even asked me to consider it. So while I would not be ok with us being long-distance for so long, would I also be ok with myself asking him to give up something that I would not? That's what's messing me up so much right now.
Unfortunately, regarding applying again next cycle, the programs in the Boston area in our field seem to have a huge gap between places that do awesome work, and places that do work that is relevant to nothing and no one, and my boyfriend has already been rejected from all of the former. Besides, I'm halfway through my third year now, waiting another cycle would mean him starting his first year as I start my fifth, at which point I may as well take him as my own PhD student.
* I'm only 24, so this would be pretty far in the future.
Just when you thought the two-body problem wasn't hard enough, let me add a few more variables to the system of ODEs...
* We're both applying to grad programs at the same time directly from undergrad
* We both got into a range of decent->good->awesome schools, but with a variety of different M.S./PhD offers and financial packages
* We both got into the same good, but not awesome program
* We got into different awesome programs (I got into one 1st-ranked program, she got into two in the top 20)
* Different schools we choose around the Midwest and the East coast could result in 0->2->5->8->20 hours travel differences
Given these differences, I think I can still relate to your bf because I've always said I would give up any school (even MIT/Stanford) to be with her. She said she would do the same unless she got into her top program. She didn't get in, but long story short, she was still unwilling to consider a lower-tier program than her current top one to be with me. The part that hurts me the most is not that she is choosing her career over our relationship, but that she led me to believe that she would not do so when given the option. Furthermore, she let me make decisions based on this belief that already affected my own career choices.
I have to go, but I will contribute more to this thread later.
My abridged advice to you: You need to gauge how much of a compromise he's making to be with you. How passionate is he about that program (however third-tier it may be)? Then compare his willingness to give up that program to be with you, to your willingness to be in a long-distance relationship until he gets his PhD. If you're not willing to make compromises for your relationship as much as he's willing to, than the relationship is probably worth more to him than it does to you. This is the basis of a very unhealthy relationship. You need to let him know that you would not make the same sacrifices, and therefore are not worthy of him bending over backwards to accommodate you. Otherwise, you will have asymmetric emotional investments that will ultimately make both of you miserable in the long run.
How long as he actually been working out of his masters program? I know when I finished school and went to work, I was VERY unhappy at first, because working is not like going to school (or vice versa)...but I eventually found a job that really got my juices flowing, and I learned how to find those kinds of jobs again.
I would strongly urge you to urge him to find another job in his field before he just gives up and goes and finds himself another 100k in student debt. You mentioned a start-up earlier, and that could be part of the problem. Start-ups tend to be pretty light on the "trying cool things just to try them" and pretty heavy on the "just get it done". Sounds to me like he needs to work his way in to the R&D department of a larger company, with a larger budget. That's what I do now, high level software R&D, and it's crazy fun. I get to try and do all kinds of new things, attempting to make our products better.
No, you're not a hypocrite. This is your dream of 8 years, whereas this is his recent infatuation of not being bored.
Four or five of the eight years I've been with my husband were long-distance, and it blew donkey balls. But one of the dumbest things he's ever done was to transfer from one state to another in order to be closer to me and his family, because it lost him thousands in grant money + credits that didn't transfer and had to be retaken at New School. It was very sweet, but god damn, is he up to his eyeballs in debt.
In other words, you've got a difficult decision to make, but it's yours to make, not your family's, or your friends'; it doesn't sound like your bf is attempting to guilt you into anything by trading in on his willingness to do things (out of boredom? How is he going to handle further student debt?), because he understands how much you love what you're doing. Everyone else owes you the same courtesy.
I have quite a few friends who have done the whole PhD to avoid finding a job in the private sector thing and it's been really hard on them because their job prospects have shriveled up since they entered their programs.
Yeah, it really becomes a case of diminishing returns. If he wants to get the PhD to be a research scientist in industry, but is already a research scientists with a Masters, the potential earning increase isn't going to offset the debt of going through a PhD program--especially because you have to take into account the lost 4-6 years of work experience.
She sometimes feels guilty over this, but part of being in a relationship is helping each other out. So while I'm the one making a "sacrifice" this time, down the road, she may need to be the one make a sacrifice for me.
In the end, I'll just echo what others have said, and just say that if he's willing to put this program on hold, let him.
Just spotted this thread again, and wanted to say that's awesome! Always nice to see things go in a good direction around here. Best of luck to you both!