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[PA Comic] Friday, March 16, 2012 - The Delicious Invasion

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Posts

  • FCDFCD Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Here's a brief rundown of the issues most people are having with the ending. Yeah, one of his complaints is that it should have had one of the possible choices be a happy (or happier) ending, and I disagree with that. But that doesn't negate the other things he mentions, which are valid. This is what a majority of people upset about the ending are complaining about; it's not that every single person has a different idea about what is wrong. Those that think there is something wrong tend to agree with most of these points.

    Spoilers for the ending

    I've gotta say, that video shows the problems with the ending in a very stark and compelling way. I actually find it amazing that:
    in a game series that puts so much emphasis on player choice, there's pretty much no difference between the 'different' endings, other than explosion color. I mean, hell, Chrono Trigger, an old school JRPG from 1995, handled multiple endings better than this, by a wide margin. That Bioware can't even manage that much is utterly dissapointing. I can understand the fan outcry now, and I'm with them 100%.

    "If anyone tried to steal your WAX LIPS, you would eat their eyeballs and deliver an angry lecture into their empty sockets." Hearts Boxcars, The Midnight Crew
  • ThejakemanThejakeman Registered User
    >complains about lack of player choice
    >player chose ending

    Someone just made a false advertising complaint with the FTC over this game. I don't care what your personal feelings are on this anymore, can we just agree that the vitriol has gone totally out of hand?

    I want to drop this quote from Alsandair from kotaku, as Cambiata keeps bringing up the Child's Play campaign

    Here's the source
    Alsandair wrote:
    Again, there's absolutely nothing wrong with voicing your opinion on the ending. Or the horrible novel. I'm not a fan of either, and I think the ending was about as shoddy as KOTOR2s.

    There's also absolutely nothing wrong with giving money to sick and dying children. I've donated to Child's Play every year since it started. It's a great cause.

    The part that smacks of despicability is when you create a movement that espouses as a base ground ethic that you are displeased with the ending to the game, and show that displeasure by starting a charity drive. Not only start a charity drive with all proceeds given to charity at the end, but to start a drive and attach the largest video game charity out there to the cause, whether that charity believes in this cause or not.

    It's not a charity drive to somehow raise the money and give it to the devs so that they can self fund a new ending, solving the "problem". It's not a charity drive because people truly want to give to Child's Play out the goodness of their hearts. It's a charity drive to show that these people are "good people". These people are nice, honest individuals that shouldn't be downtrodden. Since they're good people, they should get something in return for being so good. All these good people want is an extension of work from Bioware. The kiddies are getting toys and comfort out of this, why can't you guys give a little bit too in the way of work? Are you so disconnected from our suffering as good people and the kiddies suffering that you can't put in a little time and fix this?

    As Dinosaur Tony said above, this is emotional blackmail. I'm sure that many of the people that donated through this "cause" aren't doing it specifically to blackmail BW into an addon ending, but that doesn't stop the cause from having its basis set in a morally despicable ideal.

  • CambiataCambiata Social Justice Vanguard Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    I don't see it as emotional blackmail at all. To me, it's a simple and rather clever way to 1) bring attention to the cause here and 2) show that the people who are requesting the changes have money that they're willing to put up for it - that is to say, if Bioware makes a paid DLC ending expansion, then we have the money to pay for it and clearly don't mind doing so.

    Rich people use charities for PR all the time. I think it's pretty cool that the internet has given that same chance to regular people, too. Additionally, I like that people are using their frustration for something positive and helpful instead of something destructive.

    Cambiata on
  • ronzoronzo Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Thejakeman wrote: »
    >complains about lack of player choice
    >player chose ending
    Did you somehow miss the fact that every single ending reuses the same assets, and literally only differ in color?

    I mean, sure, I got to choose whether my ending cutscene was blue, green, or red, but they all have basically the same outcome, delivered in a way that doesn't hold together very well and leaves tons of people going ".......what?" when it's over.
    It's a incredibly shitty argument to making, as most people meant meaningful player choice. This post is pretty much a a spot on example of what pony was talking about earlier, where since you have a hard time defending the ending, you revert to attacking the people instead.
    Someone just made a false advertising complaint with the FTC over this game. I don't care what your personal feelings are on this anymore, can we just agree that the vitriol has gone totally out of hand?

    Some people are crazy, that doesn't somehow invalidate the well reasoned, calm comments 99.9% of people are making.


    edit: I personally view the Child's Play thing like a internet petition, except this one has a more visible way of showing peoples support for the idea.

    ronzo on
  • ThejakemanThejakeman Registered User
    ronzo wrote: »
    Thejakeman wrote: »
    >complains about lack of player choice
    >player chose ending
    Did you somehow miss the fact that every single ending reuses the same assets, and literally only differ in color?

    I mean, sure, I got to choose whether my ending cutscene was blue, green, or red, but they all have basically the same outcome, delivered in a way that doesn't hold together very well and leaves tons of people going ".......what?" when it's over.
    It's a incredibly shitty argument to making, as most people meant meaningful player choice. This post is pretty much a a spot on example of what pony was talking about earlier, where since you have a hard time defending the ending, you revert to attacking the people instead.
    Someone just made a false advertising complaint with the FTC over this game. I don't care what your personal feelings are on this anymore, can we just agree that the vitriol has gone totally out of hand?

    Some people are crazy, that doesn't somehow invalidate the well reasoned, calm comments 99.9% of people are making.
    >complains that choice wasn't meaningful
    >choice either destroys all reapers+geth+EDI and the relays and the citadel, places reapers under shepard's control but leaves them extant to potentially come back and restart the whole cycle, or makes all beings synthetic-organic hybrids and removes their motivation to fight for all time (and also destroys the relays and citadel)

  • The_TuninatorThe_Tuninator Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Thejakeman wrote: »
    >complains about lack of player choice
    >player chose ending

    This isn't 4chan, you can actually type your posts out.

    Please stop using ad hominem arguments and actually defend your position instead.

    The_Tuninator on
  • FCDFCD Registered User regular
    Thejakeman wrote: »
    ronzo wrote: »
    Thejakeman wrote: »
    >complains about lack of player choice
    >player chose ending
    Did you somehow miss the fact that every single ending reuses the same assets, and literally only differ in color?

    I mean, sure, I got to choose whether my ending cutscene was blue, green, or red, but they all have basically the same outcome, delivered in a way that doesn't hold together very well and leaves tons of people going ".......what?" when it's over.
    It's a incredibly shitty argument to making, as most people meant meaningful player choice. This post is pretty much a a spot on example of what pony was talking about earlier, where since you have a hard time defending the ending, you revert to attacking the people instead.
    Someone just made a false advertising complaint with the FTC over this game. I don't care what your personal feelings are on this anymore, can we just agree that the vitriol has gone totally out of hand?

    Some people are crazy, that doesn't somehow invalidate the well reasoned, calm comments 99.9% of people are making.
    >complains that choice wasn't meaningful
    >choice either destroys all reapers+geth+EDI and the relays and the citadel, places reapers under shepard's control but leaves them extant to potentially come back and restart the whole cycle, or makes all beings synthetic-organic hybrids and removes their motivation to fight for all time (and also destroys the relays and citadel)
    And instead of showing those different endings by creating different assests and cinema scenes for the different endings, it just pallete swaps the colors of the explosions. That's pretty damn lazy and half-assed, especially for something that's supposed to be the finale of such a huge series. Again, an RPG from the mid-90's managed to do a better job than this. :smh:

    "If anyone tried to steal your WAX LIPS, you would eat their eyeballs and deliver an angry lecture into their empty sockets." Hearts Boxcars, The Midnight Crew
  • ThejakemanThejakeman Registered User
    edited March 2012
    That's not what you complained about. You complained about a lack of choice. Or rather that a series that was based on personal choice should have choice involved in the ending. Or hell, maybe you just threw that in there to sound good, as re-reading it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
    Thejakeman wrote: »
    >complains about lack of player choice
    >player chose ending

    This isn't 4chan, you can actually type your posts out.

    Please stop using ad hominem arguments and actually defend your position instead.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

    But since it would be incredibly helpful to you to make the argument more clear

    Lo, FCD, thine hath complain'd of a dearth of choice in thine ending, but thine ending was in fact preceded by a choice thou made. Thy argument is negated!

    Thejakeman on
  • FCDFCD Registered User regular
    A choice between red explodies, blue explodies and green explodies. Wow. What a satisfying ending to a huge, blockbuster series. I mean, I've read CYOA novels with more depth and diversity of meaningful choice, but still. Wow. Thanks, Bioware. Thanks.

    "If anyone tried to steal your WAX LIPS, you would eat their eyeballs and deliver an angry lecture into their empty sockets." Hearts Boxcars, The Midnight Crew
  • CambiataCambiata Social Justice Vanguard Registered User regular
    Hey, Thejakeman, I guess you're not used to posting on message boards. FCD, The_Turninator, ronzo, and myself are actually four different people.

    Also, why so angry, bro?

  • ThejakemanThejakeman Registered User
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Hey, Thejakeman, I guess you're not used to posting on message boards. FCD, The_Turninator, ronzo, and myself are actually four different people.

    Also, why so angry, bro?

    I quoted one person I was responding to and replied immediately below the other person I was responding to. I translated the quoted segment of text for The_Turninator, when it was not actually directed at him because he did not make the original argument I was countering. I quoted ronzo when I was responding to ronzo. I didn't quote you because I was not responding to you.

    Is it really that hard to read?

    And why do you think I'm angry?

    FCD wrote: »
    A choice between red explodies, blue explodies and green explodies. Wow. What a satisfying ending to a huge, blockbuster series. I mean, I've read CYOA novels with more depth and diversity of meaningful choice, but still. Wow. Thanks, Bioware. Thanks.

    Okay, that makes a little more sense. I direct you (again) to my post to ronzo.
    A fancy 15 minute cgi orgy does not make your decision any more or less meaningful. Presentation != content

  • CambiataCambiata Social Justice Vanguard Registered User regular
    Thejakeman wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Hey, Thejakeman, I guess you're not used to posting on message boards. FCD, The_Turninator, ronzo, and myself are actually four different people.

    Also, why so angry, bro?

    I quoted one person I was responding to and replied immediately below the other person I was responding to. I translated the quoted segment of text for The_Turninator, when it was not actually directed at him because he did not make the original argument I was countering. I quoted ronzo when I was responding to ronzo. I didn't quote you because I was not responding to you.

    Is it really that hard to read?

    And why do you think I'm angry?

    Because of your passive aggressive reply to The_Tuninator, followed by randomly using FCD's name in your reply. Either you're really raging out or you're having trouble reading who said what. Or both.
    A fancy 15 minute cgi orgy does not make your decision any more or less meaningful. Presentation != content

    Actually, presentation does matter. Perhaps you've heard the expression: Show, don't tell. The singularness of the endings is the ultimate example of telling. "And then something really good happens!" is not an emotionally satisfying ending to a story.

  • FCDFCD Registered User regular
    Thejakeman wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Hey, Thejakeman, I guess you're not used to posting on message boards. FCD, The_Turninator, ronzo, and myself are actually four different people.

    Also, why so angry, bro?

    I quoted one person I was responding to and replied immediately below the other person I was responding to. I translated the quoted segment of text for The_Turninator, when it was not actually directed at him because he did not make the original argument I was countering. I quoted ronzo when I was responding to ronzo. I didn't quote you because I was not responding to you.

    Is it really that hard to read?

    And why do you think I'm angry?

    FCD wrote: »
    A choice between red explodies, blue explodies and green explodies. Wow. What a satisfying ending to a huge, blockbuster series. I mean, I've read CYOA novels with more depth and diversity of meaningful choice, but still. Wow. Thanks, Bioware. Thanks.

    Okay, that makes a little more sense. I direct you (again) to my post to ronzo.
    A fancy 15 minute cgi orgy does not make your decision any more or less meaningful. Presentation != content
    I disagree on that point. I feel that the visual presentation and content should be drastically different for differing endings, for a series of this size and scale. For Bioware to do what amounts to a pallete swap to differentiate the endings from each other is laughable and insulting in it's laziness. The fans are right to criticize them harshly for it.

    "If anyone tried to steal your WAX LIPS, you would eat their eyeballs and deliver an angry lecture into their empty sockets." Hearts Boxcars, The Midnight Crew
  • CambiataCambiata Social Justice Vanguard Registered User regular
    I have to say I find it pretty darn weird that one side of the discussion is so intent on demonizing the other side of the discussion, that they have tried to make giving to charity a wicked act.

  • -Tal-Tal my wife very niceRegistered User regular
    pfft, "emotionally blackmailing" people by giving to charity is standard operating procedure

    watching Tube play the worst game of all time is extra incentive to give money to sick kids

  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    ronzo wrote: »
    Thejakeman wrote: »
    >complains about lack of player choice
    >player chose ending
    Did you somehow miss the fact that every single ending reuses the same assets, and literally only differ in color?

    I mean, sure, I got to choose whether my ending cutscene was blue, green, or red, but they all have basically the same outcome, delivered in a way that doesn't hold together very well and leaves tons of people going ".......what?" when it's over.
    "color swaps" *twitch*
    Actually you only have to go through the side by side comparisons again to see that it was not just a pallet swap. There are a lot of differences from the tiny to the big. There's also added and subtracted scenes.
    Here it is again for easy reference.


    For instance in the destroy endings there's a difference in that in one scenario you actually incinerate the entire earth, which has it's own scene of both the reapers and ground troops being destroyed followed by a wave of flame rolling across the earth (Top right 0:44). In the other two destroy endings (top left and middle) the ground troops are not harmed by the blast as it rolls over them. This isn't a pallet swap and the movie doesn't cut away to show extra footage of the soldiers getting killed. This is the same scene just that everyone dies. The above one doesn't show it, but one of the destroy endings actually ends with Shepard alive on the citadel.

    In the control endings, the citadel isn't shown building up power, or releasing it. There's the shockwave that eminates from it just like the other ones, but it's not just blue it's blue with lightning, while the others are clearly flame textured, the same texture as radiation effects though the rest of the game (0:10 in the side by side, the two middle movies). The effect is continued as it strikes the ground forces and reapers (0:43) and when the energy strikes the relay (1:15), it's not a beam of light as it is in the other movies, it's the same expanding shockwave of ligthning effects. Just before that however, where the other movies show the citadel exploding into pieces, the citadel in the control movies is entirely fine, there's even an extra scene of the arms re-closing on the citadel, entirely intact.

    There's the added difference in that, in all movies, who survives the crash of the Normandy is dependent entirely on your actions in the game. Much like in Mass Effect 2, whether you had enough loyalty with certain people determines who survives. If you didn't have enough loyalty with anyone or got one of the "bad" endings no one survives the Normandy crash and sadly Buzz Aldrin's cameo is missing. If you destroyed the reapers you killed all the geth and EDI as well, so EDI is guaranteed not to survive or appear at the end.

    In the synthesis endings the character textures are changed to incorporate a "synthetic look" to not only the plant life on the planet around the Normandy crash, but very noticeably to Joker and whichever companions of yours exit the crashed Normandy. Some scenes are very much a synthesis of the control and destroy endings. While the flame effect of the destroy endings is shown washing over the reapers, albeit with a different color, they do not explode as it hits them as they do in the destroy ending, but they instead leave like they do in the control ending albeit without the lightning shooting from them (0:43). It also leaves Big Ben completely unharmed unlike all of the "bad" endings. Right at 0:55 you can see the different effects on Big Ben in the right of each movie.

    This "sameness" is no different than the ending to Mass Effect 2. The differences between those endings* was an extra scene here, a cut scene there and slight alterations all around. Did someone die? Add in a scene looking at a coffin(s) to the exact same scenes you'd get if no one died minus the dead person when panning across the assembled team. The collector base? Save or destroy it you only get a color swap on the sun behind the Illusive Man and a throw away line about it.

    *Based on the "Shepard survives" endings, because dieing in ME 1 or 2 is negated by there being an ME3 making your entire gameplay through either game have no effect.

    So, please stop saying that it's just a color swap and nothing else. There is very clearly more going on than simply different colors

    Cambiata wrote: »
    I have to say I find it pretty darn weird that one side of the discussion is so intent on demonizing the other side of the discussion, that they have tried to make giving to charity a wicked act.
    Pot. Kettle. Black.

    The continued comments made about how only one side of the argument is only attacking the people the opposite side of the argument, is itself, an attack on the people on the other side of the argument. Both sides? Maybe stop trying to narrow down the other side's argument into an attack on the people opposing them? Can we please put away this useless tactic and get back to discussing the last moments of the game.

    Dedwrekka on
    Skrulls_zpsbmqneayg.jpg
  • ThejakemanThejakeman Registered User
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Thejakeman wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Hey, Thejakeman, I guess you're not used to posting on message boards. FCD, The_Turninator, ronzo, and myself are actually four different people.

    Also, why so angry, bro?

    I quoted one person I was responding to and replied immediately below the other person I was responding to. I translated the quoted segment of text for The_Turninator, when it was not actually directed at him because he did not make the original argument I was countering. I quoted ronzo when I was responding to ronzo. I didn't quote you because I was not responding to you.

    Is it really that hard to read?

    And why do you think I'm angry?

    Because of your passive aggressive reply to The_Tuninator, followed by randomly using FCD's name in your reply. Either you're really raging out or you're having trouble reading who said what. Or both.
    A fancy 15 minute cgi orgy does not make your decision any more or less meaningful. Presentation != content

    Actually, presentation does matter. Perhaps you've heard the expression: Show, don't tell. The singularness of the endings is the ultimate example of telling. "And then something really good happens!" is not an emotionally satisfying ending to a story.

    Reading comprehension lesson here:
    Thejakeman wrote: »
    >complains about lack of player choice
    >player chose ending

    ^ Quoted from a post in response to FCD

    This isn't 4chan, you can actually type your posts out.

    Please stop using ad hominem arguments and actually defend your position instead.
    Demand for me to make my argument clearer

    I made my argument clearer, which was an argument directed at FCD. If I had wildly changed the direction of my original argument to The_Tuninator, he would (rightly) say that he never made any claim that the ending lacked player choice, but it was instead FCD who made that claim.

    I can understand that this might be difficult for you to handle, as you seem intent on painting me as a "passive aggressive" and "Mad" individual, whose basic sense of decency is clearly nonexistent as I "[try] to make giving to charity a wicked act." You are clearly dealing with an unhinged individual here, so his ability to post on message boards must be equally unhinged.

    Back to the matter at hand

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Show,_don't_tell

    I'd ask you not to use a literary rule of thumb as an attempt to defend your (actually FCD's) assertion that the presentation of Mass Effect's ending diminished the meaning of the ending, especially when you're using something as thoroughly subjective as "emotional satisfaction" as a yardstick, but then I'm a crazy ranting degenerate hell-bent on demonizing you, right?

  • KarlKarl Registered User regular
    That video posted at the top of the page pretty much sums up all my thoughts about the endings. Most importantly:
    The mass relays all explode. Won't that kill untold billions of people?

    YOU'RE ALL BABIES.
    SO MUCH POTENTIAL TO WASTE.
    Koshian wrote: »
    JOKE'S ON YOU
    MY POTENTIAL IS ALREADY WASTED
  • Fixer40000Fixer40000 Registered User regular
    Blarg.

    Let's forgive that the ending battle wasn't anywhere near as good as the suicide mission run. You didn't have any choices for which armies/leaders could be used where and you didn't loose anything for the wrong people in the wrong place, or lacking a certain kind of military force. Let's also forgive that many of the tough decisions you made didn't come to much in the end. Saved the Collector base? +10 points!

    The end doesn't make sense from any logical point from when you get there, and the inertia of all the themes building up to that point was discarded.
    When my Shepard got to the top of the Citadel, he had gotten there as a mostly Paragon character that had made the tough pragmatic decisions when he needed to. Because of my Shepard the Krogan race now had a cure for the Genophage because Eve, Wrex and their cultural history had showed him that there was hope for the future. When the Citadel was under attack by Sovereign, he let the council die because at the time, Sovereign's power had been shown to be so overwhelming and the stakes were so high that he couldn't risk anything in the chance to destroy him.

    So, there's my Shepard at the top and suddenly some kid turns up. The same kid that died in the opening and has been haunting my nightmares.
    Okay, instant distrust from me there.

    Firstly he reveals that the Reapers are there to prune advanced species to prevent a singularity which would exterminate all life permanently, allowing sentient organic species to fully develop to their full potential then cut them down before they make synthetic life that will advance beyond them and ultimately destroy them because organic life and synthetic life can never, EVER coexist. Okay, this would make sense...

    Except that I just spent a huge chunk of Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 getting the Quarians to coexist peacefully with the Geth and learning to trust EDI. The entire game has been showing me the pitfalls of judging and fearing synthetic intelligence with even Joker getting his crush on his new robot girlfriend leading to a promising future. Now all of a sudden creepy kid turns up and tells me. EVERYTHING YOU HAVE LEARNED AND SEEN IS A LIE. SYNTHETICS WILL KILL YOU. This. Makes. No. Sense.
    I'm not going to take his word for that.

    Also after all this buildup about the Reaper's unknowable transcendent motivations we learn that they're pretty simple and rather stupid. I play back that conversation with Sovereign now not feeling like there's some elder god I cannot comprehend looking down upon me, unable to put into words my mortal mind would understand the details of the Reaper's terrible plans. Rather a giant killer robot that's frankly to embarrassed of his motivations to tell me what they are.

    Right, another option. Control the Reapers! I can totally do that apparently, despite the fact that they are leagues ahead of my feeble mortal mind. Legion himself said that each thought they had was immense, I had been telling TIM he was meddling with things he couldn't understand, with powers he did comprehend and could not wield. Yet the enhanced me can now control the Reapers by putting my hands on those circuit breakers over there?
    Not only do I not believe that I can take control, I've already given myself enough reasons not to in the lead up to this point. Yet this is the good option. This. Makes. No. Sense. another reason not to trust creepy kid here.

    Last option, Synthesis. Join organic and synthetic life together. Okay... well first of all isn't the problem that Synthetic life is out advancing organic life there? Wont joining them together pretty much just make a new pseudo organic race that will still be limited in some fashion by slow paced evolution by natural selection, ultimately going to create the fully synthetic life which will rise up and kill them anyway?
    Isn't merging all life effectively as good as destroying it? Isn't the massive alteration of every being in the galaxy, sentient or otherwise, without consent massively immoral? What about how this can backfire. We got killer bees from an accidentally released cross breeding project, do we want to live in a Galaxy with technologically enhanced cyborg bears and silicon herpes?

    Plus creepy kid is telling me to jump into a beam of light. Even throwing videogame metagame into that, I don't trust creepy nightmare kid not to trick me into incinerating myself by my own stupidity.

    So, the only real sane option is to blow up the Reapers. Finish the job I came here to do, even if it does mean sacrificing Edi and the Geth. BAM!

    Fair enough, hang on... why is the Normandy flying away from the explosion, shouldn't they be around Earth fighting this last desperate battle for the survival of the Galaxy? How did he get to the Mass Relay before I blew the thing up? Wait, my crew is getting off? My girlfriend Ashley is stuck on the planet with James Vega? How did they get there? Nobody could land on the planet, the drop ship had been shot down... the woman I love and wanted to marry is not stuck on the planet with gears of war reject? No Bioware... NO!

    They repopulated the human race?

    FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.....................

    Maybe there's some better endings. I got pretty much everything but didn't run the multiplayer, maybe the EMS score or another choice gets me something better. Wait... the only difference is an Easter Egg cutscene? The other endings are basically the same, except Synthesis leaves us in a world where leaves have circuit boards in them and Caesar salad probably tastes really shitty?

    Where was the ending where my choices mattered? Why did you promise me that and not deliver? What was with the lame Adam and Eve ending? Why was it all resolved with Deus Ex Machina child? What's with all the plotholes and logical inconsistencies? Is this seriously the ending? WHO WROTE THIS CRAP?
    One night walters scribbled down some thought on various ways the game could end with the line "Lots of speculation for Everyone!" at the bottom of the page.

    Well mission accomplished Walters. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

    Have left PA forums.
    If this community believes that hating someone based soley upon their gender is acceptable and understandable, I have no interest in being a part of it.
  • CambiataCambiata Social Justice Vanguard Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    @Thejakeman why... do you keep quoting Wikipedia? To prove you know what words mean? "And then something really good happens!" is still a terrible ending for any story.

    Cambiata on
  • The_TuninatorThe_Tuninator Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    The part that smacks of despicability is when you create a movement that espouses as a base ground ethic that you are displeased with the ending to the game, and show that displeasure by starting a charity drive. Not only start a charity drive with all proceeds given to charity at the end, but to start a drive and attach the largest video game charity out there to the cause, whether that charity believes in this cause or not.

    You know what's despicable? Criticizing people who have given over sixty thousand dollars to charity for giving over sixty thousand dollars to charity. I find that rank and utterly reprehensible.

    How the hell else are they going to organize a charity drive, if not through Child's Play? What, is somebody just randomly going to start a charity drive online and everyone is just going to donate to their Paypal? There is literally no way to give money to a charity to indicate displeasure with ME3's ending without giving money to an established charity. But is it okay if it's just not "the biggest" charity out there, and they give to a smaller one? Get real.

    And, frankly, seeing as how Child's Play hasn't voiced any objection, claiming that they "may not support it" is utterly irrelevant.

    This whole argument is downright sickening. It's not "emotional blackmail", it's done so silly geese like the guy you quoted can't keep calling people disappointed by the ending "entitled gamers" without looking like the silly geese that they are.

    The_Tuninator on
  • ChillyWillyChillyWilly Registered User regular
    PAFC Top 10 Finisher in Seasons 1 and 3. 2nd in Seasons 4 and 5. Final 4 in Season 6.
  • FCDFCD Registered User regular
    Karl wrote: »
    That video posted at the top of the page pretty much sums up all my thoughts about the endings. Most importantly:
    The mass relays all explode. Won't that kill untold billions of people?
    It's okay though, because all the red/blue/green explosions were magic explosions that didn't kill anyone! Because the Magic God Child From Nowhere made it so. It's like something from a JRPG ^.^

    /end sarcasm

    "If anyone tried to steal your WAX LIPS, you would eat their eyeballs and deliver an angry lecture into their empty sockets." Hearts Boxcars, The Midnight Crew
  • FalxFalx Registered User regular
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    ronzo wrote: »
    Thejakeman wrote: »
    >complains about lack of player choice
    >player chose ending
    Did you somehow miss the fact that every single ending reuses the same assets, and literally only differ in color?

    I mean, sure, I got to choose whether my ending cutscene was blue, green, or red, but they all have basically the same outcome, delivered in a way that doesn't hold together very well and leaves tons of people going ".......what?" when it's over.
    "color swaps" *twitch*
    Actually you only have to go through the side by side comparisons again to see that it was not just a pallet swap. There are a lot of differences from the tiny to the big. There's also added and subtracted scenes.
    Here it is again for easy reference.

    Didn't you just say a while ago that video proves the relays weren't destroyed in the control endings? Because I wear glasses and can clearly see the giant pieces of relay flying off the thing when it fires the blue beam to the next relay. And you should watch the 10 reasons we hate the ending video. It sums up exactly why, despite the endings all being different (in some ways) they're all still pretty much bullshit.

  • SticksSticks Registered User regular
    I still think people are getting tangled up in the distinction between criticizing the ending and... quasi-protesting I guess. The charity drive thing has a bit of a passive aggressive bent to it, though I realize this is my perception and many others see any cause to give to charity as a good thing.

    I'm not debating that the end result is a positive for the charity, and the kids they help, but the message I'm getting is "I hate your ending. I'm going to give money to children to show you how much I hate it. Look at all this money I've given to the children, don't you feel shamed now? Are you going to do what I want or do I need to give more to the children." In other words, it's not so much about giving to charity as it is voicing your displeasure with the game in as public and showoff-y a way as possible.

    The FTC thing on the other hand is so over the top, I'm just assuming it's a troll.

  • CambiataCambiata Social Justice Vanguard Registered User regular

    Yep, that's dumb alright.

  • Andy JoeAndy Joe Registered User regular
    Fixer40000 wrote: »
    Firstly he reveals that the Reapers are there to prune advanced species to prevent a singularity which would exterminate all life permanently, allowing sentient organic species to fully develop to their full potential then cut them down before they make synthetic life that will advance beyond them and ultimately destroy them because organic life and synthetic life can never, EVER coexist. Okay, this would make sense...

    Except that I just spent a huge chunk of Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 getting the Quarians to coexist peacefully with the Geth and learning to trust EDI. The entire game has been showing me the pitfalls of judging and fearing synthetic intelligence with even Joker getting his crush on his new robot girlfriend leading to a promising future. Now all of a sudden creepy kid turns up and tells me. EVERYTHING YOU HAVE LEARNED AND SEEN IS A LIE. SYNTHETICS WILL KILL YOU. This. Makes. No. Sense.
    I'm not going to take his word for that.

    This is the part that confuses me.
    It doesn't matter whether you, the player, or Commander Shepard the character believe it to be true. The Catalyst and the Reapers believe it to be true. Apparently you and your Shepard have had some experiences that make you think they're wrong, and that's great! All the more reason, to you know, oppose them.

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  • CambiataCambiata Social Justice Vanguard Registered User regular
    Andy Joe wrote: »
    Fixer40000 wrote: »
    Firstly he reveals that the Reapers are there to prune advanced species to prevent a singularity which would exterminate all life permanently, allowing sentient organic species to fully develop to their full potential then cut them down before they make synthetic life that will advance beyond them and ultimately destroy them because organic life and synthetic life can never, EVER coexist. Okay, this would make sense...

    Except that I just spent a huge chunk of Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 getting the Quarians to coexist peacefully with the Geth and learning to trust EDI. The entire game has been showing me the pitfalls of judging and fearing synthetic intelligence with even Joker getting his crush on his new robot girlfriend leading to a promising future. Now all of a sudden creepy kid turns up and tells me. EVERYTHING YOU HAVE LEARNED AND SEEN IS A LIE. SYNTHETICS WILL KILL YOU. This. Makes. No. Sense.
    I'm not going to take his word for that.

    This is the part that confuses me.
    It doesn't matter whether you, the player, or Commander Shepard the character believe it to be true. The Catalyst and the Reapers believe it to be true. Apparently you and your Shepard have had some experiences that make you think they're wrong, and that's great! All the more reason, to you know, oppose them.

    Isn't that precisely the problem? I, and by extension Commander Shepard, is never given the opportunity to protest what is being said. Never given the chance to renegade interrupt that fucker. And that's pretty terrible. You see what people mean by saying that presentation is the issue?

  • Fixer40000Fixer40000 Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Cambiata wrote: »

    Isn't that precisely the problem? I, and by extension Commander Shepard, is never given the opportunity to protest what is being said. Never given the chance to renegade interrupt that fucker. And that's pretty terrible. You see what people mean by saying that presentation is the issue?

    Exactly. It's why the ending is so out of place because you are able to call people out on that stuff throughout the rest of the game.
    The whole otherworldly complete wholehearted acceptance of this mysterious barely hinted at 'reason behind the reapers doing stuff' and his bullshit is another reason the indoctrination theory makes so much more sense than the actual ending.

    Fixer40000 on
    Have left PA forums.
    If this community believes that hating someone based soley upon their gender is acceptable and understandable, I have no interest in being a part of it.
  • Andy JoeAndy Joe Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Andy Joe wrote: »
    Fixer40000 wrote: »
    Firstly he reveals that the Reapers are there to prune advanced species to prevent a singularity which would exterminate all life permanently, allowing sentient organic species to fully develop to their full potential then cut them down before they make synthetic life that will advance beyond them and ultimately destroy them because organic life and synthetic life can never, EVER coexist. Okay, this would make sense...

    Except that I just spent a huge chunk of Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 getting the Quarians to coexist peacefully with the Geth and learning to trust EDI. The entire game has been showing me the pitfalls of judging and fearing synthetic intelligence with even Joker getting his crush on his new robot girlfriend leading to a promising future. Now all of a sudden creepy kid turns up and tells me. EVERYTHING YOU HAVE LEARNED AND SEEN IS A LIE. SYNTHETICS WILL KILL YOU. This. Makes. No. Sense.
    I'm not going to take his word for that.

    This is the part that confuses me.
    It doesn't matter whether you, the player, or Commander Shepard the character believe it to be true. The Catalyst and the Reapers believe it to be true. Apparently you and your Shepard have had some experiences that make you think they're wrong, and that's great! All the more reason, to you know, oppose them.

    Isn't that precisely the problem? I, and by extension Commander Shepard, is never given the opportunity to protest what is being said. Never given the chance to renegade interrupt that fucker. And that's pretty terrible. You see what people mean by saying that presentation is the issue?

    If you had gotten the opportunity to do that, but the other side wasn't persuaded (as they probably wouldn't be) and you were still left with the same options for dealing with the problem as before, would that have made the ending better, in your opinion?

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  • CambiataCambiata Social Justice Vanguard Registered User regular
    Andy Joe wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Andy Joe wrote: »
    Fixer40000 wrote: »
    Firstly he reveals that the Reapers are there to prune advanced species to prevent a singularity which would exterminate all life permanently, allowing sentient organic species to fully develop to their full potential then cut them down before they make synthetic life that will advance beyond them and ultimately destroy them because organic life and synthetic life can never, EVER coexist. Okay, this would make sense...

    Except that I just spent a huge chunk of Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 getting the Quarians to coexist peacefully with the Geth and learning to trust EDI. The entire game has been showing me the pitfalls of judging and fearing synthetic intelligence with even Joker getting his crush on his new robot girlfriend leading to a promising future. Now all of a sudden creepy kid turns up and tells me. EVERYTHING YOU HAVE LEARNED AND SEEN IS A LIE. SYNTHETICS WILL KILL YOU. This. Makes. No. Sense.
    I'm not going to take his word for that.

    This is the part that confuses me.
    It doesn't matter whether you, the player, or Commander Shepard the character believe it to be true. The Catalyst and the Reapers believe it to be true. Apparently you and your Shepard have had some experiences that make you think they're wrong, and that's great! All the more reason, to you know, oppose them.

    Isn't that precisely the problem? I, and by extension Commander Shepard, is never given the opportunity to protest what is being said. Never given the chance to renegade interrupt that fucker. And that's pretty terrible. You see what people mean by saying that presentation is the issue?

    If you had gotten the opportunity to do that, but the other side wasn't persuaded (as they probably wouldn't be) and you were still left with the same options for dealing with the problem as before, would that have made the ending better, in your opinion?

    Yes, actually.

  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    @Cambiata and @Thejakeman can we cut the vitriol and personal remarks against one another. I'd hate for this to devolve into a flame war.
    Falx wrote: »
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    ronzo wrote: »
    Thejakeman wrote: »
    >complains about lack of player choice
    >player chose ending
    Did you somehow miss the fact that every single ending reuses the same assets, and literally only differ in color?

    I mean, sure, I got to choose whether my ending cutscene was blue, green, or red, but they all have basically the same outcome, delivered in a way that doesn't hold together very well and leaves tons of people going ".......what?" when it's over.
    "color swaps" *twitch*
    Actually you only have to go through the side by side comparisons again to see that it was not just a pallet swap. There are a lot of differences from the tiny to the big. There's also added and subtracted scenes.
    Here it is again for easy reference.
    Didn't you just say a while ago that video proves the relays weren't destroyed in the control endings? Because I wear glasses and can clearly see the giant pieces of relay flying off the thing when it fires the blue beam to the next relay. And you should watch the 10 reasons we hate the ending video. It sums up exactly why, despite the endings all being different (in some ways) they're all still pretty much bullshit.
    Spoilered it to be nice to the guys who haven't played the game.
    Yes actually, I never said the Relay wasn't damaged, or that basically the same footage wasn't used for the relay firing it's energy, though it is more than just a color change, it just doesn't explode or stop working as is implied with any of the other endings. And, again, a lot of the insistance that it does comes only from watching the other endings. Which is a lot like reading two crime novels and deciding what happens in one based off of the other.
    Karl wrote: »
    That video posted at the top of the page pretty much sums up all my thoughts about the endings. Most importantly:
    The mass relays all explode. Won't that kill untold billions of people?

    It's pretty obvious from the endings, and the video suggested even says "it's possible", that the relay "explosion" isn't so much an explosion like in the Arrival DLC, but rather how the citadel distributes the energy released throughout the galaxy. IE, it's how Reapers on other systems than Sol either die or get controlled, and how life in all forms is transformed in the synthesis ending.


    Fixer40000 wrote: »
    Blarg.

    Let's forgive that the ending battle wasn't anywhere near as good as the suicide mission run. You didn't have any choices for which armies/leaders could be used where and you didn't loose anything for the wrong people in the wrong place, or lacking a certain kind of military force. Let's also forgive that many of the tough decisions you made didn't come to much in the end. Saved the Collector base? +10 points!

    The end doesn't make sense from any logical point from when you get there, and the inertia of all the themes building up to that point was discarded.


    When my Shepard got to the top of the Citadel, he had gotten there as a mostly Paragon character that had made the tough pragmatic decisions when he needed to. Because of my Shepard the Krogan race now had a cure for the Genophage because Eve, Wrex and their cultural history had showed him that there was hope for the future. When the Citadel was under attack by Sovereign, he let the council die because at the time, Sovereign's power had been shown to be so overwhelming and the stakes were so high that he couldn't risk anything in the chance to destroy him.

    So, there's my Shepard at the top and suddenly some kid turns up. The same kid that died in the opening and has been haunting my nightmares.
    Okay, instant distrust from me there.

    Firstly he reveals that the Reapers are there to prune advanced species to prevent a singularity which would exterminate all life permanently, allowing sentient organic species to fully develop to their full potential then cut them down before they make synthetic life that will advance beyond them and ultimately destroy them because organic life and synthetic life can never, EVER coexist. Okay, this would make sense...

    Except that I just spent a huge chunk of Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 getting the Quarians to coexist peacefully with the Geth and learning to trust EDI. The entire game has been showing me the pitfalls of judging and fearing synthetic intelligence with even Joker getting his crush on his new robot girlfriend leading to a promising future. Now all of a sudden creepy kid turns up and tells me. EVERYTHING YOU HAVE LEARNED AND SEEN IS A LIE. SYNTHETICS WILL KILL YOU. This. Makes. No. Sense.
    I'm not going to take his word for that.

    Yes and no. The Catalyst actually tells you that because you are there that the cycle has to be broken, you can even have Shepard argue the point. The basic thing to understand is that the Cayalyst isn't omniscient or even really networked into the Reapers, which would have made Mass Effect 1 very short and brutal. It doesn't know what you did on Rannoch and it doesn't know that true synthetic life wont simply destroy everything. It happened in previous cycles, and it's still entirely possible that it would have happened in this one. The Geth aren't true synthetic life until the very end of the Rannoch mission, if you didn't just kill them all. They only became so after their upgrade, until that point they are simply a networked intelligence that's basically the equivalent of a more advanced VI. Until the upgrades the only two synthetic beings to gain true awareness are Legion and EDI.

    It's also predicated by multiple examples given in the game that show that the "cycles" repeat one another. From development rates, to wars, to eventually wars with synthetics. It's a different take on the concept of cyclical time, but it's still planted in the game before you meet the Catalyst, and it's suggested throughout multiple games.

    Right, another option. Control the Reapers! I can totally do that apparently, despite the fact that they are leagues ahead of my feeble mortal mind. Legion himself said that each thought they had was immense, I had been telling TIM he was meddling with things he couldn't understand, with powers he did comprehend and could not wield. Yet the enhanced me can now control the Reapers by putting my hands on those circuit breakers over there?
    Not only do I not believe that I can take control, I've already given myself enough reasons not to in the lead up to this point. Yet this is the good option. This. Makes. No. Sense. another reason not to trust creepy kid here.

    The Catalyst itself mentions that adding the Crucible has given it new options, which are the three given. Without it, there would be no options. The Illusive Man was meddling with things he couldn't understand. It wasn't so much a question of him not being able to control the reapers, which he couldn't anyways, it was that he was getting too close to them and became indoctrinated, he thought that he could control them forever, and he though that he could control them for the good of humanity. Really all those last three would have been wrong, and if you were choosing the paragon path, those were the reasons Shepard gave for why it was "meddling with powers you couldn't comprehend".
    Last option, Synthesis. Join organic and synthetic life together. Okay... well first of all isn't the problem that Synthetic life is out advancing organic life there? Wont joining them together pretty much just make a new pseudo organic race that will still be limited in some fashion by slow paced evolution by natural selection, ultimately going to create the fully synthetic life which will rise up and kill them anyway?
    Isn't merging all life effectively as good as destroying it? Isn't the massive alteration of every being in the galaxy, sentient or otherwise, without consent massively immoral? What about how this can backfire. We got killer bees from an accidentally released cross breeding project, do we want to live in a Galaxy with technologically enhanced cyborg bears and silicon herpes?

    That's really the question you have to ask. Destroying the Reapers would stop them from killing everyone, but, according to Mass Effect 3 even before the catalyst, organic life would still eventually be destroyed by synthetic life. Controlling the reapers would make them leave, only to return again later. Forcibly changing all life would break the cycle completely and remove the reapers as a threat, but the full outcome is a complete unknown. Really, its only mildly different than leaving them all to be changed into reapers anyways.

    Fair enough, hang on... why is the Normandy flying away from the explosion, shouldn't they be around Earth fighting this last desperate battle for the survival of the Galaxy? How did he get to the Mass Relay before I blew the thing up? Wait, my crew is getting off? My girlfriend Ashley is stuck on the planet with James Vega? How did they get there? Nobody could land on the planet, the drop ship had been shot down... the woman I love and wanted to marry is not stuck on the planet with gears of war reject? No Bioware... NO!

    hahaha. Well really we don't know where they were. However, the suggestion that they were following a wave of energy and not a beam suggests they were still somewhere in the Sol system, not jumping away on a mass relay.

    There's also the question of where your crew-mates disappeared to in the last moments. Even before you're hit by harbinger, where is everyone? You give a nice speech in the car on the way to Beam-me-up Land and no one is running with you but Anderson. I think, though I don't know, the fact that Harbinger had moved on by the time you get up, and the reaper forces had moved in, suggests that you were out for a least a good amount of time. But, again, it's hard to say.

    Dedwrekka on
    Skrulls_zpsbmqneayg.jpg
  • LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    That one bit is basically the one truly objective flaw in the ending.
    The whole Normandy sequence is extremely lacking in context. It's confusing as hell as to why it is where it is and why the people who are there are there.

  • LolkenLolken Registered User, __BANNED USERS
    Karl wrote: »
    That video posted at the top of the page pretty much sums up all my thoughts about the endings. Most importantly:
    The mass relays all explode. Won't that kill untold billions of people?

    Even if it doesn't, as it stands this really fucks up the franchise.

    "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" - Lord Acton.

    "Money tends to corrupt, and lots of money corrupts lotsely" - Me.
  • The Good Doctor TranThe Good Doctor Tran Registered User regular
    Lolken wrote: »
    Karl wrote: »
    That video posted at the top of the page pretty much sums up all my thoughts about the endings. Most importantly:
    The mass relays all explode. Won't that kill untold billions of people?

    Even if it doesn't, as it stands this really fucks up the franchise.

    Admittedly I'm no fan of the ending, and I'm one of the few people I know who would immediately sign up for a new ending DLC and pay cash money day 1, but really? The entire franchise? You can't, like...ignore the part you hate? ME3 is a completely fantastic game for literally 99.8% of the experience. If we add in playtimes, even excluding repeat runs, for the first two games, that's an amazing achievement. Don't write off the incredible work a lot of people have done because two guys got together in a room and made some bad decisions.

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  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    Regarding the comic:

    I find the idea of Krogan baking a cake to be fucking hilarious

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  • minormiracleminormiracle Registered User
    You know how Deep Space 9 spent its last season portraying this vast and bloody conflict where people fought, died, suffered, triumphed, struggled, came together, stood for what's right, took shortcuts that haunted them, and generally went through one hell of an ordeal? Do you remember how at the end, when all the combined fleets of the Alpha Quadrant and all the characters whose stories you'd been following were making the last big push against the Dominion homeworld on the other side of the wormhole, Sisko met with the wormhole aliens, who then told him they had created the Founders to rule over non-shapeshifters because they didn't want shapshifters from dominating non-shapeshifters? Do you remember the joy you felt when they told Sisko he had to sacrifice himself, destroy the wormhole, and strand the fleet on the other side of the galaxy in exchange for making the Founders leave, killing the Founders, or making everyone part shapeshifter? Wasn't that totally awesome how they resolved that story line?

    Personally I don't know what all the angry trekkies were complaining about. Something about having Kira and Odo live happily ever after, orhow the Dominion should have ended up the bestest of friends with the Federation after the war, or some crazy thing like that. Don't they realize Star Trek is a hard science fiction show that deserved a proper hard science fiction ending?

  • CambiataCambiata Social Justice Vanguard Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Heh, once again in one of these threads, I can't tell which side is being parodied.

    I actually liked the ending of Deep Space Nine. But then, the Prophets had been part of the series from the very beginning. They shaped the entire series, and shaped who Sisko was. They weren't introduced in the last five minutes of the franchise. If they had been, then I'd have probably hated that ending, too!

    Cambiata on
  • minormiracleminormiracle Registered User
    Narrator: You've done it Bella. You've turned all the vampires into Peace Corps volunteers!
    Edward: We built you a castle made out of diamonds!
    Jacob: And you were voted prom queen! The werewolves sewed you a-

    Damn it I can't do it. The ending to Twilight was just too damn beautiful. I can't even make fun of it to prove a point.

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