[TESO] Probably better than a Cliff Racer hunting sim.

Liquid Ghost

At least someone can make a guild named "Fus Ro Dongs".

Fairchild

With the kind of money that game developers need to throw at MMO development these days, I would think (hope ?) that Bethesda has been test-marketing the heck out of this thing since the get-go and thus has a pretty good picture of how it would be greeted in the marketplace. A few nasty comments on an Intertron message board is not indicative of much, really.

Cabezone

Test marketed...you mean like the dozens of other WoW clone successes?

815165

I'm kind of surprised anyone would put so much money into developing this kind of game any time since the release of WAR.

steejee

Screenies: http://www.allgamesbeta.com/2012/05/elder-scrolls-online.html

Looks like a bizzarro combo of RIFT and SWTOR, managing to get the worst aspects of both. It's like a weird halfway point between realistic and exaggerated (the hands, OH GOD THE HANDS), and waaaay off Skyrim/Oblivion's style. I mean, it's entirely possible that could change a lot, but after five years in development and a 2013 release date, not sure how much could change as far as art is concerned. Needs something on the level of GW1's art style shift IMO.

flapjack

I am also not a big fan of this visual style. It just seems to lose something in translation.

Decoy

The HeroEngine certainly isn't going to do it any favors. The 100v100 battles are way too ambitious a goal for that code, at least if the poor performance with a few dozen in Ilum is any example.

Edit: And yes, I'm aware BW heavily modified the HE.

Derrick

steejee wrote: »

Screenies: http://www.allgamesbeta.com/2012/05/elder-scrolls-online.html

Looks like a bizzarro combo of RIFT and SWTOR, managing to get the worst aspects of both. It's like a weird halfway point between realistic and exaggerated (the hands, OH GOD THE HANDS), and waaaay off Skyrim/Oblivion's style. I mean, it's entirely possible that could change a lot, but after five years in development and a 2013 release date, not sure how much could change as far as art is concerned. Needs something on the level of GW1's art style shift IMO.

http://i.imgur.com/I7jqv.jpg

That dude's hands are the size of his head.

ironzerg

Decoy wrote: »

The HeroEngine certainly isn't going to do it any favors. The 100v100 battles are way too ambitious a goal for that code, at least if the poor performance with a few dozen in Ilum is any example.

Edit: And yes, I'm aware BW heavily modified the HE.

Oh fuck, don't remind me...That's reason enough to run as fast and as far away from anything they promise RE: PvP.

Corehealer

Can't wait to watch this thing crash and burn as yet another testament to the endless folly of game devs and the idiots who bank roll them following WoW simply because of it's former success years ago and it's relatively easy to ape themepark standards of game design.

It makes me sad and angry to see another great IP fall into this trap. It's all motivated by corporate/publisher greed mixed up in a desire to avoid corporate greed on the developer end by doing what Blizzard did; create a renewable and reliable revenue stream so you can fund the creation of other great games, MMO or otherwise, and become big and successful to the point where you aren't reliant as much on restrictive developers. Everyone wants a sweet office in California and a convention of their own. But WoW was as much a fluke as much as it was well designed and timed. No amount of Elder Scrolls, Star Wars or whatever will change that. And at the end of the day, the audience doesn't want it anymore.

WE DON'T WANT ANYMORE WOW CLONES. GIVE US PROPER SOCIAL MULTIPLAYER EXPERIENCES THAT INVEST THE PERSON IN THEIR CHARACTER AND THEIR COMMUNITY LIKE WE'VE WANTED SINCE THE MUD DAYS OR GTFO. IT'S BEEN DONE BEFORE, IT CAN BE DONE AGAIN, AND BETTER.

steejee

Corehealer wrote: »

Can't wait to watch this thing crash and burn as yet another testament to the endless folly of game devs and the idiots who bank roll them following WoW simply because of it's former success years ago and it's relatively easy to ape themepark standards of game design.

It makes me sad and angry to see another great IP fall into this trap. It's all motivated by corporate/publisher greed mixed up in a desire to avoid corporate greed on the developer end by doing what Blizzard did; create a renewable and reliable revenue stream so you can fund the creation of other great games, MMO or otherwise, and become big and successful to the point where you aren't reliant as much on restrictive developers. Everyone wants a sweet office in California and a convention of their own. But WoW was as much a fluke as much as it was well designed and timed. No amount of Elder Scrolls, Star Wars or whatever will change that. And at the end of the day, the audience doesn't want it anymore.

WE DON'T WANT ANYMORE WOW CLONES. GIVE US PROPER SOCIAL MULTIPLAYER EXPERIENCES THAT INVEST THE PERSON IN THEIR CHARACTER AND THEIR COMMUNITY LIKE WE'VE WANTED SINCE THE MUD DAYS OR GTFO. IT'S BEEN DONE BEFORE, IT CAN BE DONE AGAIN, AND BETTER.

It doubly boggles my mind that they're doing this because they could quite literally nab every TES fan by just (well 'just' being a loaded word) by taking the worlds, lore, characters, art, design, etc from Skyrim, expand it out to Oblivion and Morrowind's areas, and add multiplayer + intelligent persistance to it and viola! I'd buy that in a fucking heartbeat. Obviously it's not super simple to do those things, but I'm while I wouldn't buy what they're describing, I'd sure as fuck buy a true multiplayer Skyrim made just for PC. They literally have the whole game universe handed to them already and they toss it out for being 'too hard' to MMOize.

Add to that they've been working on this for *years* and this is what they came up with.

Great Scott

Toxic Pickle wrote: »

The other major concern I have was also mentioned above: Are they going to stick with the traditional ES system of having skills determine what your character can do? In my mind, they kinda have to for it to be a real ES game, and yet balancing such a system is impossible even for a single-player game.

Having played Asheron's Call I'm not worried. Classless skill-based MMOs work just fine. In fact, such a system wouldn't even be groundbreaking.

Fig-D

I thought it was mentioned that this was going to be class based?

Toxic Pickle

Great Scott wrote: »

Toxic Pickle wrote: »

The other major concern I have was also mentioned above: Are they going to stick with the traditional ES system of having skills determine what your character can do? In my mind, they kinda have to for it to be a real ES game, and yet balancing such a system is impossible even for a single-player game.

Having played Asheron's Call I'm not worried. Classless skill-based MMOs work just fine. In fact, such a system wouldn't even be groundbreaking.

That comment of mine was made before the Game Informer article that has basically unveiled TESO to be a WoW-clone.

I guess we don't have to worry about whether Zenemax can balance a classless system anymore, at least. They clearly stated themselves that it's "Too hard".

Moist

All of this makes me angry. MMO's have so much potential but producers need to stop rehashing the same shit over and over. Like some other people in this thread have said, i'll be watching this one crash and burn like so many before it.

I had such high hopes, at least they wont get my money like Bioware did, I have learned.

Gustavo M

Corehealer wrote: »

WE DON'T WANT ANYMORE WOW CLONES. GIVE US PROPER SOCIAL MULTIPLAYER EXPERIENCES THAT INVEST THE PERSON IN THEIR CHARACTER AND THEIR COMMUNITY LIKE WE'VE WANTED SINCE THE MUD DAYS OR GTFO. IT'S BEEN DONE BEFORE, IT CAN BE DONE AGAIN, AND BETTER.

Can't have said It better myself.

Great Scott

Toxic Pickle wrote: »

Great Scott wrote: »

Toxic Pickle wrote: »

The other major concern I have was also mentioned above: Are they going to stick with the traditional ES system of having skills determine what your character can do? In my mind, they kinda have to for it to be a real ES game, and yet balancing such a system is impossible even for a single-player game.

Having played Asheron's Call I'm not worried. Classless skill-based MMOs work just fine. In fact, such a system wouldn't even be groundbreaking.

That comment of mine was made before the Game Informer article that has basically unveiled TESO to be a WoW-clone.

I guess we don't have to worry about whether Zenemax can balance a classless system anymore, at least. They clearly stated themselves that it's "Too hard".

Thanks for the info! My response to the developers is "Too bad". Game development (especially at Bethsoft) is hard. That's why people get paid to do it. They are big boys (and girls) and can figure it out.

Turbine figured it out almost a decade ago and I'm not aware that Turbine is a top-10 developer.

I understand that some other developer (in-house) is doing TESO; I sure hope so - I can't see Todd Howard saying that.

Axen

Gustavo M wrote: »

Corehealer wrote: »

WE DON'T WANT ANYMORE WOW CLONES. GIVE US PROPER SOCIAL MULTIPLAYER EXPERIENCES THAT INVEST THE PERSON IN THEIR CHARACTER AND THEIR COMMUNITY LIKE WE'VE WANTED SINCE THE MUD DAYS OR GTFO. IT'S BEEN DONE BEFORE, IT CAN BE DONE AGAIN, AND BETTER.

Can't have said It better myself.

Yeah I agree.

To put it simply I am just plain tired of standard MMOs. I've been there, I've done that. Putting a new coat of paint on it does not make it fresh. It just covers up the rust and stains.

That's why I make it a point to purchase any MMO that tries something new. It may not work, it may very well suck, but I will give any Dev my money and at least 30 days worth of my time if they bring something new or unique to the table.

I still go back and play Fallen Earth from time to time since it is an experience I can't really find in most other MMOs and I enjoy myself while playing it. Same goes for EVE Online. I will also be totally picking up Planetside II and Mechwarrior Online when they drop. Granted those two aren't exactly MMOs in the traditional sense, but you get my point.

Elldren

I just hope TESO's inevitable failure won't stop them from making more TES games

Skyrim was great, and so far Skyrim this ain't

Is it too much to hope they just scrap the project now instead of putting even more good money after bad?

Axen

Your investors were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.

Hewn

Axen wrote: »

Your investors were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.

Perfect.

And why would anybody want to copy WoW? Don't they know WoW is still the best WoW? Whenever a game attempts to mimic WoW I can't help but think, "Oh it's like WoW... but WoW did it better."

The reason everybody is buzzing about GW2 (and to a lesser extent Tera) is because they bring something entirely new to the table. Well, something more than cutscenes. We don't want the next WoW, we want the next generation MMO.

override367

Boy it's sure a good thing guild wars 2 is coming out to distract me from getting excited about the perpetual onslaught of wow clones



Interesting part starts at around 2 minutes, TES online has that for a baseline to compete against, good luck

Elldren

Hah, just caught this gem of a tagline from the GI article

From Skyrim to Morrowind, and everything in between

I think everything between Skyrim and Morrowind accurately reflects what this game will amount to.

sidhaethe

override367 wrote: »

Boy it's sure a good thing guild wars 2 is coming out to distract me from getting excited about the perpetual onslaught of wow clones



Interesting part starts at around 2 minutes, TES online has that for a baseline to compete against, good luck

And they said there would be no radiant AI in TES Online. Well, gosh.

Louie

What must it be like for the makers of MMO's when they see stuff like GW2 and TERA which are revolutionary in aspects and they are just churning out something like WoW?

Maybe we are being overly critical, WoW is still hugely succesful and though people online are quick to slate this project, will the average WoW player want to buy this? If the answer is yes then they won't give a shit that they are getting quite negative buzz online at the moment.

MuddBudd

Yeah I don't understand why WOW is suddenly evil. Like, people are ANGRY about them taking inspiration from a genre-redefining game that took the MMO market to heights it had never before achieved? Seriously?

Being done with/tired of something you once loved doesn't make it bad. It just means you don't want to play it anymore, you've hit your saturation point.

The Elder Scrolls folks never promised anyone they'd make an MMO custom tailored to anyone's specific desires. They just said they want to make an MMO. Just because they make good single player games doesn't mean they are required to, or even able to, create this perfect, seamless, living online world that these people seem to want. I'm not sure anyone could.

sidhaethe

But not everyone who likes MMOs, or even everyone who likes Bethesda games, liked WoW. And certainly not everyone who loves/loved WoW likes Bethesda's particular sandboxy style of games. So in mixing the two, by taking out certain features that are distinctly Bethesda in feel that constitute in some part why some people like their games, I do have to wonder what is the audience they're trying to gain, exactly? Because they're going to be passed up by some who love TES series, and likely not win over a huge chunk of WoW players (much like every MMO who tries to court that audience).

Frankly, I adored Skyrim, but I'm not seeing at the moment why I should be more interested in this than GW2 if not for the lore.

815165

I think the problem is with making a game so similar to wow, as someone who loves wow, is this:

I'm already playing wow.
I'm invested in the characters I've spent an uncomfortable amount of time on.
I like the group of people I play wow with.
Wow is really fucking good at being wow, they've got this shit down thanks to a lot of experience.

So, without offering anything revolutionary you're asking someone to change from subbing to wow to your game which is very like wow only probably a bit less refined and without the above benefits of staying with wow.

Axen

I'd have rather they spent all that time and energy making TES VI with online co-op. That's really all I've wanted from the TES series since Morrowind, the ability to adventure with a few of my friends.

Hell, if Bethsoft wanted to copy anyone I wish it was the Mortal Online guys. Only do it better.


I may come off like I'm angry or upset with Bethsoft, but honestly I am just disappointed with them. Not because they aren't making this perfect MMO that caters to all my tastes, but because they are making an MMO in the first place.

Hewn

815165 wrote: »

I think the problem is with making a game so similar to wow, as someone who loves wow, is this:

I'm already playing wow.
I'm invested in the characters I've spent an uncomfortable amount of time on.
I like the group of people I play wow with.
Wow is really fucking good at being wow, they've got this shit down thanks to a lot of experience.

So, without offering anything revolutionary you're asking someone to change from subbing to wow to your game which is very like wow only probably a bit less refined and without the above benefits of staying with wow.

Exactly. WoW is the BEST WoW. If your only contribution is "new setting" you're dead in the water. Any players you rip away will probably be temporary.

WoW isn't evil, it just already exists. And not a single WoW-like MMO has been as good as the original. I hate to sound like a broken record, but a game like SWTOR is a perfect example. It added amazing storytelling and character development. The core gamplay was WoW-like... but not as good. And after you get over the glam of the new superficial feature, you're left with a core experience that feels rehashed and simply sub par to the original.

Let me put it this way: I'll be shocked if any game can truly best Blizzard at making the EQ inspired WoW model work. WoW has perfected that style of questing, instance, raiding, and PvP. It's not for everybody, and it's growing stale to many of us, but for what it is it's highly polished and effective.

eobet

I think the problem with The Elder Scrolls series is that it employs just another very generic fantasy setting, which without the massive open world sandbox environment played out in the first person view of the singleplayer games, won't have much to add to the gaming experience.

Any franchise which lifts the gameplay of something else and pastes it onto their own assets will automatically only cater to their own existing fans, and no new customers.

(By contrast, Guild Wars 2 seems to be mentioned a lot lately probably because it went against both these trends, by having some quite distinct settings and finding a way to streamline the gameplay in ways that haven't been done before, probably attracting a lot of new customers curious to try the experience.)

ironzerg

Guys. It's simple. Their formula for success should have been Elder Scrolls + Massively Multiplayer + Persistance = Win.

Instead, they went with Elder Scrolls + WoW - Elder Scrolls + Massively Multiplayer + Persistance. Figure out the answer to that second equation, and you'll see the problem.

If you haven't, please take time to read the entire article, or at least the last "what's in/what's out" page. You'll see that they're basically taking out everything that made the ES franchise a franchise, and replacing it with generic MMO 101 stuff. I'm not exagerating here.

You loved the open skills system? GONE. Replaced by classes.
Enjoyed the first person? GONE. Now 3rd person.
You loved killing dragons in Skryim? NO dragons.
Big fan of the visuals? Sorry, we're going to make it look like Rift or ToR.
Have your own horse? NO Mounts.
Player owned houses? NOPE.
Become a werewolf or vampire? TOO HARD to balance.
Loved the Radiant AI system? Won't be in the MMO.
Want to get married? Look somewhere else.
Be any race you want and still have an open world? Uh oh. Three factions cuts out 2/3rds of the game for you.
Play with whatever skills you want? Not really. Skills are all on a hotbar, and you're limited to just a few at a time.
Go wherever you want? SURE** (**Assuming you're the proper level for the area, just like every other MMO).
Enjoy fast travel? That's gone...well, you can walk all the way to a shrine then sorta fast travel.
Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood are IN**. But we just have no idea what form.
Love the mage guild stuff in Skryim? Not planned for release.

And the icing on the cake. The absolute cream of the cream...and I quote.

Recreateing the freedom Elder Scrolls players expect within the World of Warcraft-style mechanics Zenimax Online is using for this MMO would be impossible without changing the way that players interact with the world.

The crux, the very foundation of the Elder Scrolls games was HOW the players could interact with the world. All this is being changed for the MMO.

I'm not making this up. All of this is straight from the developer, via that linked article. This IS NOT speculation. These are facts.

eobet

So they're not even catering to their existing fanbase. Brilliant.

Elldren

815165 wrote: »

I think the problem is with making a game so similar to wow, as someone who loves wow, is this:

I'm already playing wow.
I'm invested in the characters I've spent an uncomfortable amount of time on.
I like the group of people I play wow with.
Wow is really fucking good at being wow, they've got this shit down thanks to a lot of experience.

So, without offering anything revolutionary you're asking someone to change from subbing to wow to your game which is very like wow only probably a bit less refined and without the above benefits of staying with wow.

As someone who used to play WoW but doesn't anymore, presumably their other potential audience, if I wanted to play WoW again I'd just play WoW again.

I'm sick of WoW, that's why I don't play WoW again. If you want me to take your game the least bit seriously the worst thing you can do is say "Hey look! It's just like that game you used to play that you can't particularly stand playing anymore!"

ironzerg

Wow was an awesome game. Incredible. Fantastic. Beautiful. I'll even listen to arguments that to date, it's the best game ever made.

Still doesn't change the fact that I'm tired of it, and it's game play. Let's move on.

Hewn

Their efforts would have been better served making a Borderlands-like version of Skyrim. I understand an MMO with a Skyrim world is pretty daunting at this stage, but there's no reason they couldn't have a party based open world adventure.

But the classes thing is just lazy. Ultima Online, the granddaddy of all MMOs, had a skill system similar to Elder Scrolls. And player housing. And fast travel anywhere in the world. Etc, etc. If they could do it in the mid 90s, I have a feeling they could make it work now.

Yougottawanna

I see a problem with the MMO pricing model. Specifically, that it's catnip to investors and businessmen. Tell these people that you can charge sixty bucks for your game and fifteen bucks a month to play it and their eyes do that cash-register thing like you see in the cartoons.

I don't want to write the game off entirely just yet. Specifically, if the lore and storylines are good the game could still be good. But I'm not exactly holding my breath either.

Corehealer

All our musing and bitching about all the obvious shit they have done/are doing wrong is moot at this point, I fear. If they are far enough along in development of this that they are going to release it next year, and are this convinced that it will be different from the other WoW clones while also somehow appealing to actual ES fans, then there's not much our collective negative input, correct as it is, can do about it.

Elldren

Yougottawanna wrote: »

I see a problem with the MMO pricing model. Specifically, that it's catnip to investors and businessmen. Tell these people that you can charge sixty bucks for your game and fifteen bucks a month to play it and their eyes do that cash-register thing like you see in the cartoons.

I don't want to write the game off entirely just yet. Specifically, if the lore and storylines are good the game could still be good. But I'm not exactly holding my breath either.

That model is slowly dying

Great Scott

Louie wrote: »

What must it be like for the makers of MMO's when they see stuff like GW2 and TERA which are revolutionary in aspects and they are just churning out something like WoW?

Maybe we are being overly critical, WoW is still hugely succesful and though people online are quick to slate this project, will the average WoW player want to buy this? If the answer is yes then they won't give a shit that they are getting quite negative buzz online at the moment.

Being a WoW-clone in and of itself it not a kiss of death. For example, one of the nicer things about ToR was that I could just jump into the Beta and get familiar with gameplay quickly. I don't mind hot-bar hit-chance gameplay.

What I mind is what *goes along with* being a WoW-clone; which is "no new ideas".

I get that this is hard; WoW itself steals from other MMOs all the time (Badges from CoH for example). but innovation being hard isn't the player's problem to solve, it's the result of effort put into gameplay and design by the Devs.

I already know everything I need to from the release-date announcement; there is no possible way there will be any innovation in the world or the gameplay with a 2013 release. Games take time; 2015 wouldn't raise my eyebrows. This is "get it out the door ASAP" strategy, which is a waste of everyone's time.