[PATV] Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - Extra Credits Season 4, Ep. 6: Mass Effect 3 DLC

Shen

The DLC character's mission is a 567mb download with two achievements (Zaeed was 465mb, Shadow Broker 1.5GB).

It makes sense for some content to be on the disk because obviously his dialogue would have been recorded at around the same time as all the other characters.

He adds a lot of great flavour, but he's not necessary.

It's good that people feel like they're missing out by not having him, because DLC should be desirable. If they saw that character and his interactions and thought "Eh, pass" then that's a fail for Bioware.

Nergy

A lot of anger has been directed at the ME3 DLC, but i seriously wish it was directed at SFxT. The handling of that situation was much worse than Bioware/EA has ever done.

Capcom made a $60 game and are basically telling people it's worth over $100. There wasn't any extra work to be done, no devs doing overtime to add extra content to the game after the production was finished, no side-team. The characters were there at the beginning of production. Hell, they'd make a very healthy profit even if nobody bought the DLC. But it's there to give the illusion of extra content to the people who might not know about the content being on the disc.

I don't understand anyone liking or not against on-disc DLC. And no, i'm not going to spout the old "it's on the disc, i own it" thing. I understand they are legally allowed to do it. But that doesn't mean we should let companies get away with it.

What Bioware/EA did was "iffy" at best. We've got to pick our fights much better than this.

Caulk Bite 6

gigabums wrote: »

Cambiata wrote: »

Fixer40000 wrote: »

The major argument was that this wasn't an additional bonus character like Kasumi. It was originally part of the game that was broken off and sold at an unreasonable price for more profit.

Kasumi and Zaeed weren't really as well integrated into the story as Javik. A lot of the things they did made them feel 'tacked on' in the main story because they hadn't written for them, other characters don't say anything in their missions because their voice actors weren't available. Their missions are completely involved though. Javik is completely integrated and in fact does a lot more than some of the other characters in your group.

He checks out the Citadel, he has long arguments with Liara, chats with other squad members, has something to say about the Prothean artefacts he deals with, has special interaction with some minor NPCs you have contact with.

This means that he wasn't some separate piece, he was deeply entwined within regular development. Pretty much every story in the game has him included. He's not an additional piece added in after the fact he's already there. The only thing that the DLC adds is the mission to pick him up.

The whole thing reeks more of a day one content patch that you have to pay for.

All the characters had more dialog in this game. For ME2, Kasumi had no more or less squad dialog than anyone else. For ME3, the DLC squaddie (are we still spoiling what he is?) had no more or less squad dialog than anyone else.

He wasn't "deeply entwined" with the story, he just had some interesting flavor text. As a matter of fact, on my first playthrough I didn't even bring him very many places, because I was nostaligic and brought all my old bros with me everywhere instead. The dialog he has is fun, but so is the dialog between Garrus and Liara, or Garrus and Tali. (or Garrus and anyone really. Garrus is the broest of bros)

Someone I trust at Bioware said that the DLC wasn't developed until the game had been certified. In fact, what he said was that the content was to be scrapped entirely, until some people fought for it to be included somewhere, so they developed it for DLC instead, after the game went gold. As much as you want to make this a horrible crime against humanity, the reality is that it's Bioware giving you more content, and you complaining about getting that content.

THE DLC IS ON THE DISC
YOU CAN CHANGE TWO VARIABLES IN A TEXT EDITOR, AND THE DLC WORKS.
SAME FOR THE COLLECTORS EDITION.

THE SHIT
IS
ON
THE
DISC

IT IS THERE

Now STOP defending a company that fucking CONNED us.

here's a thing I'd like to ask: "YOU CAN CHANGE TWO VARIABLES IN A TEXT EDITOR, AND THE DLC WORKS."

Have you yourself actually done this. for another thing, who "proved" it was possible? I'm serious.

also, posting in all caps makes you look foolish.

Edit: further reading shows me that you cracked your purchased game. so I'll reiterate another's question: did you get the dlc character's mission, all his dialogue and video? ir did you get a lump that shows up here and there and says nothing.

ronzo

I'm honestly surprised he didn't get infracted/banned for talking about piracy and actually insulting someone with something other than "silly goose". And I know more than one person reported him.

Not really worth engaging anyways, as his opinion is factually wrong.

edit: don't be a back seat mod, it doesn't end well

armageddonbound

The thing I take issue with is people saying that extra content cost money and they have to pay a separate team etc. You could say that about the music, or spoken dialog or the textures crew or whatever. How you structure your office space means fuck all to me. As the consumer I want the best product with the most amount of stuff in it. Telling me that you had a totally new spreadsheet to cover asset X and Y has no relevance. I hope everyone catches my meaning. I'm not saying the company is bad, just that with the line of reasoning that is being used you could try and make a case that spoken dialog should be offered as DLC content and everyone else has to deal with text only.

For the record, the only DLC I ever buy is when it's like a full expansion pack. Whole new quests or whatever that advances the story further than it was before. I just never see myself paying for some new armor skin or what haves you.

Caulk Bite 6

armageddonbound wrote: »

The thing I take issue with is people saying that extra content cost money and they have to pay a separate team etc. You could say that about the music, or spoken dialog or the textures crew or whatever.

No, no you really can't, certainly not with Triple A games of today, a category that Mass Effect definitely belongs to.

How you structure your office space means fuck all to me. As the consumer I want the best product with the most amount of stuff in it. Telling me that you had a totally new spreadsheet to cover asset X and Y has no relevance. I hope everyone catches my meaning.

You see this graph? You are the middle one.

Cambiata wrote: »

I'm not saying the company is bad, just that with the line of reasoning that is being used you could try and make a case that spoken dialog should be offered as DLC content and everyone else has to deal with text only.

Except no-one is making that case, or will ever try.

Cambiata

When people complain about how DLC shouldn't cost them anything, it puts me in mind of this kind of customer:

http://notalwaysright.com/we-prefer-not-to-die-for-a-pie/18143

armageddonbound

Caulk Bite 6 wrote: »

armageddonbound wrote: »

The thing I take issue with is people saying that extra content cost money and they have to pay a separate team etc. You could say that about the music, or spoken dialog or the textures crew or whatever.

No, no you really can't, certainly not with Triple A games of today, a category that Mass Effect definitely belongs to.

How you structure your office space means fuck all to me. As the consumer I want the best product with the most amount of stuff in it. Telling me that you had a totally new spreadsheet to cover asset X and Y has no relevance. I hope everyone catches my meaning.

You see this graph? You are the middle one.

Cambiata wrote: »

I'm not saying the company is bad, just that with the line of reasoning that is being used you could try and make a case that spoken dialog should be offered as DLC content and everyone else has to deal with text only.

Except no-one is making that case, or will ever try.

I don't see how you refuted any of my arguments. I buy a game for X dollars. This game has Y value to me. The smaller X and the bigger Y is, is all that matters. It means nothing to me that you moved some team and put them in some offices down this hall, and that their pay is from fund b instead of c. How much Y are you giving me? I can then say if that's a good value or not. DLC is nice and all but I have to decide if the core game has enough value for me. Funding concerns during development aren't my concerns, they are the developers concerns.

ronzo

Deciding if I game has enough value for the price based on your internal metric for that is one thing

More or less saying a dev stole/conned you out of content your feel you deserved is another thing entirely

u63r

So, slippery slopes and almost no reference to the autonomy of the players? They can't sell anything without someone choosing to buy it. People always complain about DLC. Either it's essential content that "should've been" in the main game, it's minor or cosmetic items that "should be" unlockable, it should've been released sooner, or some other rationalization.

The real problem with Day 1 DLC is the persistent and incorrect myth that every D1D was cut out of the game specifically to sell, based on nothing more than it being released on day one. This content was ready for the CE on release, so why not sell it? If they had withheld it for a month or so, people would still complain that they're being "unfairly punished" compared to people who got the CE. The myth persists because entitled gamers feel the need to blame others for selling something they can't or won't buy yet. It's just sour grapes.

I've asked gamers making the complaint how much of a gap from release would make D1D okay, or prove that it wasn't ripped from the game, and I've never gotten an answer.

I expected better, guys.

u63r

armageddonbound wrote: »

The thing I take issue with is people saying that extra content cost money and they have to pay a separate team etc. You could say that about the music, or spoken dialog or the textures crew or whatever. How you structure your office space means fuck all to me. As the consumer I want the best product with the most amount of stuff in it. Telling me that you had a totally new spreadsheet to cover asset X and Y has no relevance. I hope everyone catches my meaning. I'm not saying the company is bad, just that with the line of reasoning that is being used you could try and make a case that spoken dialog should be offered as DLC content and everyone else has to deal with text only....

What you're saying is that your desires are paramount, and screw the people who actually make the game.

Got it.

u63r

ronzo wrote: »

Deciding if I game has enough value for the price based on your internal metric for that is one thing

More or less saying a dev stole/conned you out of content your feel you deserved is another thing entirely

Especially when that's based on false information or rumors, such as "every D1DLC is something that was cut out of the game".

Opty

I really don't care about day 1 dlc as long as it's not on the disc. If it's on the disc then it was ready to go when the game went gold which means it should be a part of the game.

DarkPrimus

I guess I'm alone in remembering that when people were looking at Mass Effect 2's files, they found place-holder data for Kasumi before the DLC came out - not actual audio or anything, but indications that another DLC squadmate besides Zaeed was planned.

Cambiata

DarkPrimus wrote: »

I guess I'm alone in remembering that when people were looking at Mass Effect 2's files, they found place-holder data for Kasumi before the DLC came out - not actual audio or anything, but indications that another DLC squadmate besides Zaeed was planned.

I mentioned it earlier in the thread, actually.

This line that "because part of it was on the disk they conned us, maaaaaan" is a complete load.

Opty

Basically if all of it is on the disc to the point hackers can unlock it for themselves, then it should be part of the game. Neither Mass Effect 2 nor 3 falls under this while games like Beautiful Katamari or Street Fighter X Tekken do.

Dedwrekka

Fixer40000 wrote: »

The major argument was that this wasn't an additional bonus character like Kasumi. It was originally part of the game that was broken off and sold at an unreasonable price for more profit.

Kasumi and Zaeed weren't really as well integrated into the story as Javik. A lot of the things they did made them feel 'tacked on' in the main story because they hadn't written for them, other characters don't say anything in their missions because their voice actors weren't available. Their missions are completely involved though. Javik is completely integrated and in fact does a lot more than some of the other characters in your group.

He checks out the Citadel, he has long arguments with Liara, chats with other squad members, has something to say about the Prothean artefacts he deals with, has special interaction with some minor NPCs you have contact with.

This means that he wasn't some separate piece, he was deeply entwined within regular development. Pretty much every story in the game has him included. He's not an additional piece added in after the fact he's already there. The only thing that the DLC adds is the mission to pick him up.

The whole thing reeks more of a day one content patch that you have to pay for.

Well, for one it's ridiculous, and Bioware has already explained the situation several times. The part that's "on the disk" is the barest necessary for the character to be playable at all. It's no more or less than Kasumi or Zaeed in Mass Effect 2.

Spoiler:

Bioware wrote:

However, because the plot of ME3 is so richly interwoven with the character interactions and moments, you simply cannot use a DLC module to ‘insert’ a new character. As we’ve mentioned before, that character has to be planned and the framework has to be established ahead of time for us to build off of with the DLC module. You may have seen a similar framework developed in ME2 for the Zaeed and Kasumi characters. We wanted Javik to be a fully featured squad member, with deep dialogue throughout the game – and we needed him to be accessible via the character selection GUI (which you cannot simply ‘overwrite’ with DLC). Thus, certain elements of the Javik appearance and some of the VO needed to be included on the disc. That is a fact. But that doesn’t mean the content was created, and then removed. It is a necessity of adding a rich character presence in our game.

That, however, is the extent of it. As mentioned above, the DLC is over 600 mb. The DLC data holds the mission itself, the cinematic flashback moments, the cinematic dialogue interactions with Javik, his weapon, the appearances for squad members… everything that makes the adventure a cohesive experience. ‘From Ashes’ is not Javik’s character model. It is the story of finding the last remaining Prothean, and how his tale interweaves with Commander Shepard’s as he struggles to destroy the Reaper threat.

From Ashes is more than the basic character model and non-cinematic lines though. Also, while Javik does indeed interact with the crew, so do Kasumi and Zaeed. Both of those characters had roles in cinematic moments throughout Mass Effect 2 like Javik does in 3. The role of Javik is not important though. In no area of the Mass Effect game is his input significantly important, or not filled in by other crew members. His one liners may be more humorous, but they're not essential.

For the record.
Things on the Disk (IE things ready when it was feature locked and sent for certification):
Javik's basic character model
Javik's non-cinematic dialog

Things on the DLC (IE things done after the build was feature locked and sent for certification) :
Javik's mission
Javik's cinematic dialog
New appearances for squad members
New weapon for Javik and the entire squad
Javik's cinematics
NPC reactions and conversations with Javik in other Cinematics

I'm willing to say that what's not on the disk is what's important.
Anyone remember wall jumping in Metroid or glitching in Mario World to reach "secret worlds"? That's what used to happen to content that got cut late in development, but before being finished. Now, we have DLC, and crews that are prepared to make that unfinished content into DLC.

izzyb wrote: »

Arvetis wrote: »

No, no, no, NO. So disappointed with the Extra Credits guys on this one. They've done some great stuff in the past, but this is a major thing to drop the ball so badly on. This kind of passive acceptance is going to cost gamers dearly in the future.

Extra Credits is great when its explaining how things work, but like so much of the gaming media, it seems their more frequent interaction with the industry rather than viewers slants their agenda when they wander into the realm of opinion.

You might want to look at the premise of Extra Credits. They are not gaming media for gamers, they are gaming media for game designers and aspiring game designers. The whole point of this episode is not to rail again "the evils of DLC", it's to try and ward game designers off of what they view as a slippery slope.
Also, they're very active with viewers. For one, James, the guy who writes the episodes, teaches a class on Game Design and fields questions about it for a living. I don't think there's a more active role he could take without literally tying gamers to him like armor.

gigabums

Cambiata wrote: »

I'll ignore your unnecessary language to say: I'm not doubting that you got the character. I'm doubting that you got his mission or his squad dialogue/cutscenes. Did you?

I did.

All of it.

every
single
goddamn
bit.

I may buy the DLC later when it comes out in a "Here is everything put together in a neat bundle" pack.
But as it stands I don't see what I did as wrong.

Dedwrekka wrote: »

Well, for one it's ridiculous, and Bioware has already explained the situation several times. The part that's "on the disk" is the barest necessary for the character to be playable at all. It's no more or less than Kasumi or Zaeed in Mass Effect 2.

But this is a barefaced lie.

Caulk Bite 6 wrote: »

Edit: further reading shows me that you cracked your purchased game. so I'll reiterate another's question: did you get the dlc character's mission, all his dialogue and video? ir did you get a lump that shows up here and there and says nothing.

See above

Cambiata

gigabums wrote: »

Cambiata wrote: »

I'll ignore your unnecessary language to say: I'm not doubting that you got the character. I'm doubting that you got his mission or his squad dialogue/cutscenes. Did you?

I did.

All of it.

every
single
goddamn
bit.

You're saying you got to do his "recruitment" mission. When the one video online that shows how you can change one line of code and get him on your squad, shows him a member of the squad instantaneously, without a recruiting mission? You'll have to forgive me if I require more than your word to believe that.

gigabums

Cambiata wrote: »

gigabums wrote: »

Cambiata wrote: »

I'll ignore your unnecessary language to say: I'm not doubting that you got the character. I'm doubting that you got his mission or his squad dialogue/cutscenes. Did you?

I did.

All of it.

every
single
goddamn
bit.

You're saying you got to do his "recruitment" mission. When the one video online that shows how you can change one line of code and get him on your squad, shows him a member of the squad instantaneously, without a recruiting mission? You'll have to forgive me if I call bullshit.

Well that's very nice for you.
I nevertheless played Priority: Eden Prime and thought it was a completely okay mission.

And his banter was mildly amusing.

Cambiata

Which is to say, you downloaded a torrent so that you could play that mission.

gigabums

That would make it simpler for you, would it not?

Cambiata

It's already simple for me. I don't know you, except for the fact that you're an avowed pirate. Requiring some kind of proof of your words seems reasonable.

Caulk Bite 6

I think it's safe to say that gigabums is full of excrement and bile, and whose word should not be trusted

Aurich

On this, we have reached consensus.