The Hunger Games: Your imagination is racist and you should feel bad

Casual Eddy

enlightenedbum wrote: »

Casual Eddy wrote: »

a lot of times when it comes to trilogies, the first book is years, if not decades, in the making. we're talking about a 'regular person' with a job that spends years and years thinking of and imagining a book, and then they eventually put it to paper. Then they go through dozens of drafts and go through an agent and eventually an editor. then the second book is part of a contract and is due within a year or so.

I think this definitely happened to suzanne collins. the second and third book just aren't as clearly imagined.

Hunger Games wasn't her debut novel. Last year was actually the first year she hadn't published a novel since '02.

oh right

well it's probably still the case. it was her first big book so I wouldn't be surprised if she had been kicking it around for a while.

Alaniel

So, I saw this today and thought it was really good. I never read the books, nor do I have any desire to do so. It appears I had much lower expectations than most of the people here, so some of the stuff y'all are mentioning didn't bother me. There were a few things I really liked, and a few things that confused me.

Spoiler:

Liked:
1. How the main girl was humorless, and barely ever cracked a genuine or unforced smile; she lived a dogshit life and didn't try to pretend otherwise.
2. How they gussied up the kids and fed them a lot of nice stuff before they sent them off to slaughter each other. It was kinda like they were dressing a roasted hog.
3. The opening to the game, where they all jump off the platforms and just start brutalizing one another. There was a stark contrast between that moment and all the pomp and circumstance that came before.
4. The mockingjay whistle thing; they played it in the trailer and it seemed like it's going to become important later. Like it's going to be a rallying call when the inevitable revolution begins.
5. The overall bleakness and violent tone of the film. When that one ubermensch blonde guy snapped that one kid's neck, and that girl was stung to death by the swarm of wasps, I was sitting in the theater going, "Wow, I bet some dumb parents are going to take their kids to see this... awesome."

Disliked:
1. Donald Sutherland. OK, we all know he's a good actor, but I dunno if he was the right choice for the role "terrifying dictator." Seems like they should have gotten someone like Malcolm McDowell or that guy that played the Architect in the Matrix sequel. Maybe just have him be a merciless and invisible presence. I thought it was really good when the game host guy was locked in the room without explanation with the poison berries; more of that, less of my grandpa pruning his rose garden.
2. Extraneous characters. Why did the clown lady need to be in there past the reaping part? She was a representation of the outlandishness and uncaring decadence of the capitol; she didn't need to be hanging out in their apartment having tea.
3. I didn't buy the mean kids club at all. When they were all asleep under Katniss' tree I was just waiting for one of them to get up and slit the Hitler youth guy's/everyone's throats. Only one person's supposed to win this thing, kids, and "Aryan Race Poster Boy" over there is probably going to be a motherfucker to beat in a stand up fight. Seriously, you've all got knives, what the hell are you doing?
4. This is probably the one that makes more sense to those that read the books, but 73 years? Really? They spent 73 years watching their kids beat, maim, stab, and mutilate each other and are just now doing something about it? I get it, they're dirt miners that live in abject poverty who've been beaten and stepped on their whole lives. People throughout history have been known to take an inordinate amount of shit, but they get a special kind of desperate and infuriated when you start fucking with their kids.

Overall, great movie though. I hope they make all the money they can, and do a sequel.

Schrodinger

I've only seen the trailer, but can anyone please explain why they're referring to this as the new Harry Potter?

Apothe0sis

Schrodinger wrote: »

I've only seen the trailer, but can anyone please explain why they're referring to this as the new Harry Potter?

Kids and adults are going gaga over this and the books.

Dracil

Ok, I think I've been spoiled by Battle Royale but this film just made me go 85% on RT? Really? It wasn't nearly dark enough for my tastes, I mean the tributes actually knew what was coming and could prepare plus had no prior bonds outside of the person from their district, unlike the students in BR who just get dumped with a random weapon and are told to go at it. Much more interesting too since many were friends before being forced to kill each other. Katniss was also way too much of a Mary Sue character for the story to be interesting. Unless the sequels have much better development I'm not sure I'd bother watching them.

EmperorSeth

Apothe0sis wrote: »

Schrodinger wrote: »

I've only seen the trailer, but can anyone please explain why they're referring to this as the new Harry Potter?

Kids and adults are going gaga over this and the books.

Basically this. They're Young Adult books that sold a ton as books and will do the same in theaters (unlike the 40 or so young adult books they made in movies not named Harry Potter or Twilight.)

SniperGuy

Dracil wrote: »

Ok, I think I've been spoiled by Battle Royale but this film just made me go 85% on RT? Really? It wasn't nearly dark enough for my tastes, I mean the tributes actually knew what was coming and could prepare plus had no prior bonds outside of the person from their district, unlike the students in BR who just get dumped with a random weapon and are told to go at it. Much more interesting too since many were friends before being forced to kill each other. Katniss was also way too much of a Mary Sue character for the story to be interesting. Unless the sequels have much better development I'm not sure I'd bother watching them.

Er, how is Katniss a Mary Sue?


The third book suffers from a lot of wah I'm a girl leave me alone while the main plot happens in the background.

Casually Hardcore

Katniss is not a Mary Sue character.

In the third book:

Spoiler:

She essentially did nothing and got most of her friends killed just so she can go on her own little vendetta.

CanadianWolverine

Casually Hardcore wrote: »

Katniss is not a Mary Sue character.

In the third book:

Spoiler:

She essentially did nothing and got most of her friends killed just so she can go on her own little vendetta.

Sorry, wut?

(book 3 spoilers)

Spoiler:

They were going to kill her, she did not get most of her friends killed, they chose to go with her. And she wasn't exactly the only person with that "vendetta", she was just the one being used that was going to be discarded, something she was all too familiar with from the Hunger Games. That would be like saying Lt. Aldo Raine got the Inglourious Basterds all killed just so he could go on his own little vendetta to kill nazis and Hitler ... you know, despite that they all volunteered to do it.

Inquisitor

Saw this last night with my mom, wasn't really planning on seeing it but we had a gift card and she wanted to see it. I knew it was based on a YA novel so I tried to set my expectations appropriately. Still, in the end I was rather underwhelmed. I think mostly because the cinematography was terrible. Beyond even the obviously awful shaky cam and unfocused shots, just... everything. It was just very poorly filmed which made everything just have no impact, nothing really seemed to be at stake. We never really got a sense of scope about anything. The movie seemed to dwadle at the start and then rush through everything else. I feel like a ton of time was wasted on "look the districts are poor, the capital is rich!" And then so much of the hunger game itself felt glossed over. I mean, there was all this emphasis on death via starvation, exposure, etc, and then that all was a non-issue once we got to the game itself. Maybe off camera there was a ton of foraging or whatever going on, but the choice of what to film and what to show was very poor.

All the characters felt very underdeveloped, the setting felt underdeveloped (because it never really goes past the surface of: districts poor, capitals rich), and in the end it felt like not much really happened. I can see how it is setting up for the second movie pretty plainly, but... nothing much happened in THIS movie.

Also:

Spoiler:

What the hell was that awful excuse for a twist at the end? It's like, okay, they decide they need to appease the districts a little because they are rioting so they decide to let two people win this year instead of one. Look at our mercy! Look at our compassion! Enjoy the hope of young love! And then, for seemingly zero reason when it gets down to the couple that everyone is happy for, they decide "haha whoops jokes on you only one of you can win!" which is like, as tyrannical and oppressive and capricious as possible. Hahaha your hope was a false hope screw you districts, like that's not going to cause riots. But then they rescind that decision no less than like 30 seconds later, which just makes them seem weak and unable to govern their subjects. The whole bit made no sense.

Gandalf_the_Crazed

Inquisitor wrote: »

Saw this last night with my mom, wasn't really planning on seeing it but we had a gift card and she wanted to see it. I knew it was based on a YA novel so I tried to set my expectations appropriately. Still, in the end I was rather underwhelmed. I think mostly because the cinematography was terrible. Beyond even the obviously awful shaky cam and unfocused shots, just... everything. It was just very poorly filmed which made everything just have no impact, nothing really seemed to be at stake. We never really got a sense of scope about anything. The movie seemed to dwadle at the start and then rush through everything else. I feel like a ton of time was wasted on "look the districts are poor, the capital is rich!" And then so much of the hunger game itself felt glossed over. I mean, there was all this emphasis on death via starvation, exposure, etc, and then that all was a non-issue once we got to the game itself. Maybe off camera there was a ton of foraging or whatever going on, but the choice of what to film and what to show was very poor.

All the characters felt very underdeveloped, the setting felt underdeveloped (because it never really goes past the surface of: districts poor, capitals rich), and in the end it felt like not much really happened. I can see how it is setting up for the second movie pretty plainly, but... nothing much happened in THIS movie.

Also:

Spoiler:

What the hell was that awful excuse for a twist at the end? It's like, okay, they decide they need to appease the districts a little because they are rioting so they decide to let two people win this year instead of one. Look at our mercy! Look at our compassion! Enjoy the hope of young love! And then, for seemingly zero reason when it gets down to the couple that everyone is happy for, they decide "haha whoops jokes on you only one of you can win!" which is like, as tyrannical and oppressive and capricious as possible. Hahaha your hope was a false hope screw you districts, like that's not going to cause riots. But then they rescind that decision no less than like 30 seconds later, which just makes them seem weak and unable to govern their subjects. The whole bit made no sense.

Well it was a series of poor, but understandable decisions made by the chief gamemaker -- whose name I can't remember. He was trying to satisfy multiple different goals at the same time, and he fucked up in what was actually a very human way.

Spoiler:

Goal 1: Have a good, entertaining game. That's why he's doing things like starting fires to chase the Tributes back towards each other. If the games aren't entertaining, you lose the viewership in the Capitol, and the games are an important tool in keeping the Districts dehumanized in their minds.
Goal 2: Keep the spark of hope alive, but only a spark. That's explicitly covered in his conversation with President Snow.
Goal 3: Prevent Katniss and Peeta's bucking of the rules from becoming a national symbol of defiance.

So because of goals 1 and 2, he institutes the "two winners" rule. Then, spurred on by President Snow's disapproval of how he's handled Katniss + Peeta, he removes that possibility -- again, this should make for an entertaining finale for the viewers, and re-asserts the finality of Capitol authority. Up to this point, he's actually proceeding in a very logical way, and achieving all his goals.

Then the berries come out, and he does what anybody would do in that situation: he panics. If he lets them do it...well, that's not very exciting or entertaining for his viewers. And like President Snow said, "We need a winner." That's about as far as he has time to think, I imagine, before he has to react. In his panic, he doesn't realize that getting the winner and having something exciting happen ("suddenly, the rules change! True love triumphs!") aren't nearly as important as the whole "national symbol of defiance" thing. He panicked, he got in a hurry, and he made a mistake.

And he paid for it.

Inquisitor

Gandalf_the_Crazed wrote: »

Inquisitor wrote: »

Saw this last night with my mom, wasn't really planning on seeing it but we had a gift card and she wanted to see it. I knew it was based on a YA novel so I tried to set my expectations appropriately. Still, in the end I was rather underwhelmed. I think mostly because the cinematography was terrible. Beyond even the obviously awful shaky cam and unfocused shots, just... everything. It was just very poorly filmed which made everything just have no impact, nothing really seemed to be at stake. We never really got a sense of scope about anything. The movie seemed to dwadle at the start and then rush through everything else. I feel like a ton of time was wasted on "look the districts are poor, the capital is rich!" And then so much of the hunger game itself felt glossed over. I mean, there was all this emphasis on death via starvation, exposure, etc, and then that all was a non-issue once we got to the game itself. Maybe off camera there was a ton of foraging or whatever going on, but the choice of what to film and what to show was very poor.

All the characters felt very underdeveloped, the setting felt underdeveloped (because it never really goes past the surface of: districts poor, capitals rich), and in the end it felt like not much really happened. I can see how it is setting up for the second movie pretty plainly, but... nothing much happened in THIS movie.

Also:

Spoiler:

What the hell was that awful excuse for a twist at the end? It's like, okay, they decide they need to appease the districts a little because they are rioting so they decide to let two people win this year instead of one. Look at our mercy! Look at our compassion! Enjoy the hope of young love! And then, for seemingly zero reason when it gets down to the couple that everyone is happy for, they decide "haha whoops jokes on you only one of you can win!" which is like, as tyrannical and oppressive and capricious as possible. Hahaha your hope was a false hope screw you districts, like that's not going to cause riots. But then they rescind that decision no less than like 30 seconds later, which just makes them seem weak and unable to govern their subjects. The whole bit made no sense.

Well it was a series of poor, but understandable decisions made by the chief gamemaker -- whose name I can't remember. He was trying to satisfy multiple different goals at the same time, and he fucked up in what was actually a very human way.

Spoiler:

Goal 1: Have a good, entertaining game. That's why he's doing things like starting fires to chase the Tributes back towards each other. If the games aren't entertaining, you lose the viewership in the Capitol, and the games are an important tool in keeping the Districts dehumanized in their minds.
Goal 2: Keep the spark of hope alive, but only a spark. That's explicitly covered in his conversation with President Snow.
Goal 3: Prevent Katniss and Peeta's bucking of the rules from becoming a national symbol of defiance.

So because of goals 1 and 2, he institutes the "two winners" rule. Then, spurred on by President Snow's disapproval of how he's handled Katniss + Peeta, he removes that possibility -- again, this should make for an entertaining finale for the viewers, and re-asserts the finality of Capitol authority. Up to this point, he's actually proceeding in a very logical way, and achieving all his goals.

Then the berries come out, and he does what anybody would do in that situation: he panics. If he lets them do it...well, that's not very exciting or entertaining for his viewers. And like President Snow said, "We need a winner." That's about as far as he has time to think, I imagine, before he has to react. In his panic, he doesn't realize that getting the winner and having something exciting happen ("suddenly, the rules change! True love triumphs!") aren't nearly as important as the whole "national symbol of defiance" thing. He panicked, he got in a hurry, and he made a mistake.

And he paid for it.

I dunno, I quite disagree with:

Spoiler:

With the double suicide not being entertaining for his viewers. I mean, these are viewers that, obviously, get off on kids killing each other. And two lovers committing suicide due to their love and inability to live without one another? I mean that is Romeo and fucking Juliet right there man, that is like, CLASSIC entertainment. So, you let the two kids kill each other, and then congratulate district 12 on raising such fine and compassionate and wonderful participants and give the district whatever bonuses/benefits that they would have normally gotten for having the winner be from their district. Problem neatly swept under the rug, no?

Bagginses

Inquisitor wrote: »

Gandalf_the_Crazed wrote: »

Inquisitor wrote: »

Saw this last night with my mom, wasn't really planning on seeing it but we had a gift card and she wanted to see it. I knew it was based on a YA novel so I tried to set my expectations appropriately. Still, in the end I was rather underwhelmed. I think mostly because the cinematography was terrible. Beyond even the obviously awful shaky cam and unfocused shots, just... everything. It was just very poorly filmed which made everything just have no impact, nothing really seemed to be at stake. We never really got a sense of scope about anything. The movie seemed to dwadle at the start and then rush through everything else. I feel like a ton of time was wasted on "look the districts are poor, the capital is rich!" And then so much of the hunger game itself felt glossed over. I mean, there was all this emphasis on death via starvation, exposure, etc, and then that all was a non-issue once we got to the game itself. Maybe off camera there was a ton of foraging or whatever going on, but the choice of what to film and what to show was very poor.

All the characters felt very underdeveloped, the setting felt underdeveloped (because it never really goes past the surface of: districts poor, capitals rich), and in the end it felt like not much really happened. I can see how it is setting up for the second movie pretty plainly, but... nothing much happened in THIS movie.

Also:

Spoiler:

What the hell was that awful excuse for a twist at the end? It's like, okay, they decide they need to appease the districts a little because they are rioting so they decide to let two people win this year instead of one. Look at our mercy! Look at our compassion! Enjoy the hope of young love! And then, for seemingly zero reason when it gets down to the couple that everyone is happy for, they decide "haha whoops jokes on you only one of you can win!" which is like, as tyrannical and oppressive and capricious as possible. Hahaha your hope was a false hope screw you districts, like that's not going to cause riots. But then they rescind that decision no less than like 30 seconds later, which just makes them seem weak and unable to govern their subjects. The whole bit made no sense.

Well it was a series of poor, but understandable decisions made by the chief gamemaker -- whose name I can't remember. He was trying to satisfy multiple different goals at the same time, and he fucked up in what was actually a very human way.

Spoiler:

Goal 1: Have a good, entertaining game. That's why he's doing things like starting fires to chase the Tributes back towards each other. If the games aren't entertaining, you lose the viewership in the Capitol, and the games are an important tool in keeping the Districts dehumanized in their minds.
Goal 2: Keep the spark of hope alive, but only a spark. That's explicitly covered in his conversation with President Snow.
Goal 3: Prevent Katniss and Peeta's bucking of the rules from becoming a national symbol of defiance.

So because of goals 1 and 2, he institutes the "two winners" rule. Then, spurred on by President Snow's disapproval of how he's handled Katniss + Peeta, he removes that possibility -- again, this should make for an entertaining finale for the viewers, and re-asserts the finality of Capitol authority. Up to this point, he's actually proceeding in a very logical way, and achieving all his goals.

Then the berries come out, and he does what anybody would do in that situation: he panics. If he lets them do it...well, that's not very exciting or entertaining for his viewers. And like President Snow said, "We need a winner." That's about as far as he has time to think, I imagine, before he has to react. In his panic, he doesn't realize that getting the winner and having something exciting happen ("suddenly, the rules change! True love triumphs!") aren't nearly as important as the whole "national symbol of defiance" thing. He panicked, he got in a hurry, and he made a mistake.

And he paid for it.

I dunno, I quite disagree with:

Spoiler:

With the double suicide not being entertaining for his viewers. I mean, these are viewers that, obviously, get off on kids killing each other. And two lovers committing suicide due to their love and inability to live without one another? I mean that is Romeo and fucking Juliet right there man, that is like, CLASSIC entertainment. So, you let the two kids kill each other, and then congratulate district 12 on raising such fine and compassionate and wonderful participants and give the district whatever bonuses/benefits that they would have normally gotten for having the winner be from their district. Problem neatly swept under the rug, no?

I think we're supposed to assume that the Capitol has more modern, pro-comedy, tastes, where they personally pick someone to root for and find everything pointless and anticlimactic if there's no winner. Think of how we like there do be a winner in a sport where the two combatants punch each other into early Alzheimer's.

Also, the rule change actually reminds me of an episode of Project Runway in which they told the contestants that they'd all have to stretch their fabrics into two complete outfits halfway through the sewing and drama section of the episode, then came out right before the runway and revealed that the second look would be going in the trash, suckers.

Schrodinger

EmperorSeth wrote: »

Apothe0sis wrote: »

Schrodinger wrote: »

I've only seen the trailer, but can anyone please explain why they're referring to this as the new Harry Potter?

Kids and adults are going gaga over this and the books.

Basically this. They're Young Adult books that sold a ton as books and will do the same in theaters (unlike the 40 or so young adult books they made in movies not named Harry Potter or Twilight.)

So it's popular because... people like it?

enc0re

Dracil wrote: »

Ok, I think I've been spoiled by Battle Royale but this film just made me go 85% on RT? Really? It wasn't nearly dark enough for my tastes, I mean the tributes actually knew what was coming and could prepare plus had no prior bonds outside of the person from their district, unlike the students in BR who just get dumped with a random weapon and are told to go at it. Much more interesting too since many were friends before being forced to kill each other. Katniss was also way too much of a Mary Sue character for the story to be interesting. Unless the sequels have much better development I'm not sure I'd bother watching them.

It's generally best to ignore the percentage on RT and focus on the Average Rating instead. In the case of THG that's 7.2/10. The way it's set up the percentage tells you how likely a movie is to be watchable while the average rating tells you how good it it. Subject to the problems associated with reviews and averaging them out to begin with.

Dracil

Maybe Katniss is not a Mary Sue in the *3rd* book, but based on just the first movie (I have not read the books), she's totally a Mary Sue. Look at her getting the love of all the sponsors and getting a 11 score too. Plus all that archery, hunting, and survival skills.

Again, I'm comparing it to the kids in BR who were literally nothing more than ordinary kids with no idea what to do. It just made for a more interesting premise. The world-building for Hunger Games is a little more interesting though, and maybe the entire trilogy makes for a good story, but again, just based on the first movie, it just fell really flat.

7.2/10 is still damn high (BR was 7.5). I honestly enjoyed Mirror, Mirror more than Hunger Games, which is 50% and 5.6 respectively.

Dark Raven X

Well do you consider Kiriyama a Mary Sue type character? Cause in Battle Royale

Spoiler:

he is the super popular classmate, genius level intellect, can use any weapon he finds with deadly effect and kills basically the entire group.

Schrodinger

The Battle Royale movie was so much better than the books. The more I learned about the characters, the more I hated them and wanted them to die.

nightmarenny

Dracil wrote: »

Maybe Katniss is not a Mary Sue in the *3rd* book, but based on just the first movie (I have not read the books), she's totally a Mary Sue. Look at her getting the love of all the sponsors and getting a 11 score too. Plus all that archery, hunting, and survival skills.

Again, I'm comparing it to the kids in BR who were literally nothing more than ordinary kids with no idea what to do. It just made for a more interesting premise. The world-building for Hunger Games is a little more interesting though, and maybe the entire trilogy makes for a good story, but again, just based on the first movie, it just fell really flat.

7.2/10 is still damn high (BR was 7.5). I honestly enjoyed Mirror, Mirror more than Hunger Games, which is 50% and 5.6 respectively.

You're essentially saying that she's a Mary sue because she had relevant skills. She earned her eleven. It wasn't just oh she's so interesting and cool lets give her an 11!

Plus a MS generally has a silly not really a flaw flaw. Like how Bella is "clumsy". Katniss lacked any really physical ability and was very abrasive. Getting her 11 through a very risky gambit and getting peoples attention because she was couched, pushed and helped.

I would argue that the writing didn't give her much to do and made her somewhat flat but not a Mary Sue.

CanadianWolverine

Besides, didn't getting 11 make her a target? Not exactly an advantage (book 1 spoiler)

Spoiler:

especially when in the book, it means you can use training time to make alliances - again, yet another thing the movies gloss over and/or cut out.

nightmarenny

It should also be pointed out(because I didn't know this when I watched the movie) but her 11 was on a scale of 12 not 10.

Dracil

Dark Raven X wrote: »

Well do you consider Kiriyama a Mary Sue type character? Cause in Battle Royale

Spoiler:

he is the super popular classmate, genius level intellect, can use any weapon he finds with deadly effect and kills basically the entire group.

He was more of a super villain/big bad boss for the protagonists to overcome. Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters are more of a protagonist role and are boring because of the lack of tension.

Maybe it is the whole flatness of Katniss that I'm really complaining about. Plus the relation between her and Peeta just felt rather forced in the movie.

Dracil

CanadianWolverine wrote: »

Besides, didn't getting 11 make her a target? Not exactly an advantage (book 1 spoiler)

Spoiler:

especially when in the book, it means you can use training time to make alliances - again, yet another thing the movies gloss over and/or cut out.

Spoiler:

Didn't the scoring happen after the training. Thus the score couldn't have influenced the social aspect of training. If anything, District 1/2 had the reputation of having special training so it would have counted against them during training.

Drez

Schrodinger wrote: »

EmperorSeth wrote: »

Apothe0sis wrote: »

Schrodinger wrote: »

I've only seen the trailer, but can anyone please explain why they're referring to this as the new Harry Potter?

Kids and adults are going gaga over this and the books.

Basically this. They're Young Adult books that sold a ton as books and will do the same in theaters (unlike the 40 or so young adult books they made in movies not named Harry Potter or Twilight.)

So it's popular because... people like it?

What? Yes, that's one way to become popular.

belligerent

So I saw it yesterday after being a fan of the book. I wish the Avox thing was pushed more, which would have explained the feeling of never 'escaping' the districts. I loved foxface, thought that was a good casting.

I see many small complaints in this thread, and I'm sorry you all didn't enjoy the movie. I'm not sure what you were expecting, but it was a good spring flick for me, and I got my money's worth out of it.

Casually Hardcore

Katniss and Peeta relationship was forced. Peers was friendzoned and Katniss put up an act in orderr to save both her and Peers.

histronic

Dracil wrote: »

CanadianWolverine wrote: »

Besides, didn't getting 11 make her a target? Not exactly an advantage (book 1 spoiler)

Spoiler:

especially when in the book, it means you can use training time to make alliances - again, yet another thing the movies gloss over and/or cut out.

Spoiler:

Didn't the scoring happen after the training. Thus the score couldn't have influenced the social aspect of training. If anything, District 1/2 had the reputation of having special training so it would have counted against them during training.

Spoiler:

The scoring happened after all the training, and they also explicitly stated in the book and the movie that the score was out of 12.

Drez

Jdarksun: Your end-of-book-3 spoiler is kind of unmarked.

Bagginses

"Tracker Jacker" makes sense as a piece of backwoods slang (DARE lists sillier terms for nightcrawlers coming from the south). The movie made it into the official term.

The_Tuninator

The one thing I really wish they'd done with the movie is left in the scene with Thresh as it was in the book; the movie's version of that didn't do much for me, and it also didn't really make sense.

Fun film overall, though, and I thought that they did a remarkably good job of adapting the source material, given the difficulty of translating a novel which relies heavily on a character's thoughts as a narrative mechanism.

kime

jdarksun wrote: »

Drez wrote: »

Jdarksun: Your end-of-book-3 spoiler is kind of unmarked.

What? Where? Under the books discussion spoiler?

Yes. You were just talking about the first movie, so I assumed the spoiler would just be over the first book. It's more marked now though, that's good.

The_Tuninator

Inquisitor wrote: »

Gandalf_the_Crazed wrote: »

Inquisitor wrote: »

Saw this last night with my mom, wasn't really planning on seeing it but we had a gift card and she wanted to see it. I knew it was based on a YA novel so I tried to set my expectations appropriately. Still, in the end I was rather underwhelmed. I think mostly because the cinematography was terrible. Beyond even the obviously awful shaky cam and unfocused shots, just... everything. It was just very poorly filmed which made everything just have no impact, nothing really seemed to be at stake. We never really got a sense of scope about anything. The movie seemed to dwadle at the start and then rush through everything else. I feel like a ton of time was wasted on "look the districts are poor, the capital is rich!" And then so much of the hunger game itself felt glossed over. I mean, there was all this emphasis on death via starvation, exposure, etc, and then that all was a non-issue once we got to the game itself. Maybe off camera there was a ton of foraging or whatever going on, but the choice of what to film and what to show was very poor.

All the characters felt very underdeveloped, the setting felt underdeveloped (because it never really goes past the surface of: districts poor, capitals rich), and in the end it felt like not much really happened. I can see how it is setting up for the second movie pretty plainly, but... nothing much happened in THIS movie.

Also:

Spoiler:

What the hell was that awful excuse for a twist at the end? It's like, okay, they decide they need to appease the districts a little because they are rioting so they decide to let two people win this year instead of one. Look at our mercy! Look at our compassion! Enjoy the hope of young love! And then, for seemingly zero reason when it gets down to the couple that everyone is happy for, they decide "haha whoops jokes on you only one of you can win!" which is like, as tyrannical and oppressive and capricious as possible. Hahaha your hope was a false hope screw you districts, like that's not going to cause riots. But then they rescind that decision no less than like 30 seconds later, which just makes them seem weak and unable to govern their subjects. The whole bit made no sense.

Well it was a series of poor, but understandable decisions made by the chief gamemaker -- whose name I can't remember. He was trying to satisfy multiple different goals at the same time, and he fucked up in what was actually a very human way.

Spoiler:

Goal 1: Have a good, entertaining game. That's why he's doing things like starting fires to chase the Tributes back towards each other. If the games aren't entertaining, you lose the viewership in the Capitol, and the games are an important tool in keeping the Districts dehumanized in their minds.
Goal 2: Keep the spark of hope alive, but only a spark. That's explicitly covered in his conversation with President Snow.
Goal 3: Prevent Katniss and Peeta's bucking of the rules from becoming a national symbol of defiance.

So because of goals 1 and 2, he institutes the "two winners" rule. Then, spurred on by President Snow's disapproval of how he's handled Katniss + Peeta, he removes that possibility -- again, this should make for an entertaining finale for the viewers, and re-asserts the finality of Capitol authority. Up to this point, he's actually proceeding in a very logical way, and achieving all his goals.

Then the berries come out, and he does what anybody would do in that situation: he panics. If he lets them do it...well, that's not very exciting or entertaining for his viewers. And like President Snow said, "We need a winner." That's about as far as he has time to think, I imagine, before he has to react. In his panic, he doesn't realize that getting the winner and having something exciting happen ("suddenly, the rules change! True love triumphs!") aren't nearly as important as the whole "national symbol of defiance" thing. He panicked, he got in a hurry, and he made a mistake.

And he paid for it.

I dunno, I quite disagree with:

Spoiler:

With the double suicide not being entertaining for his viewers. I mean, these are viewers that, obviously, get off on kids killing each other. And two lovers committing suicide due to their love and inability to live without one another? I mean that is Romeo and fucking Juliet right there man, that is like, CLASSIC entertainment. So, you let the two kids kill each other, and then congratulate district 12 on raising such fine and compassionate and wonderful participants and give the district whatever bonuses/benefits that they would have normally gotten for having the winner be from their district. Problem neatly swept under the rug, no?

I think the comparison to make would be, say, the World Series, Super Bowl, or even the World Cup ending

Spoiler:

in a tie. People would not be happy; they want a winner to root for. Same idea here.

enlightenedbum

The_Tuninator wrote: »

Inquisitor wrote: »

Gandalf_the_Crazed wrote: »

Inquisitor wrote: »

Saw this last night with my mom, wasn't really planning on seeing it but we had a gift card and she wanted to see it. I knew it was based on a YA novel so I tried to set my expectations appropriately. Still, in the end I was rather underwhelmed. I think mostly because the cinematography was terrible. Beyond even the obviously awful shaky cam and unfocused shots, just... everything. It was just very poorly filmed which made everything just have no impact, nothing really seemed to be at stake. We never really got a sense of scope about anything. The movie seemed to dwadle at the start and then rush through everything else. I feel like a ton of time was wasted on "look the districts are poor, the capital is rich!" And then so much of the hunger game itself felt glossed over. I mean, there was all this emphasis on death via starvation, exposure, etc, and then that all was a non-issue once we got to the game itself. Maybe off camera there was a ton of foraging or whatever going on, but the choice of what to film and what to show was very poor.

All the characters felt very underdeveloped, the setting felt underdeveloped (because it never really goes past the surface of: districts poor, capitals rich), and in the end it felt like not much really happened. I can see how it is setting up for the second movie pretty plainly, but... nothing much happened in THIS movie.

Also:

Spoiler:

What the hell was that awful excuse for a twist at the end? It's like, okay, they decide they need to appease the districts a little because they are rioting so they decide to let two people win this year instead of one. Look at our mercy! Look at our compassion! Enjoy the hope of young love! And then, for seemingly zero reason when it gets down to the couple that everyone is happy for, they decide "haha whoops jokes on you only one of you can win!" which is like, as tyrannical and oppressive and capricious as possible. Hahaha your hope was a false hope screw you districts, like that's not going to cause riots. But then they rescind that decision no less than like 30 seconds later, which just makes them seem weak and unable to govern their subjects. The whole bit made no sense.

Well it was a series of poor, but understandable decisions made by the chief gamemaker -- whose name I can't remember. He was trying to satisfy multiple different goals at the same time, and he fucked up in what was actually a very human way.

Spoiler:

Goal 1: Have a good, entertaining game. That's why he's doing things like starting fires to chase the Tributes back towards each other. If the games aren't entertaining, you lose the viewership in the Capitol, and the games are an important tool in keeping the Districts dehumanized in their minds.
Goal 2: Keep the spark of hope alive, but only a spark. That's explicitly covered in his conversation with President Snow.
Goal 3: Prevent Katniss and Peeta's bucking of the rules from becoming a national symbol of defiance.

So because of goals 1 and 2, he institutes the "two winners" rule. Then, spurred on by President Snow's disapproval of how he's handled Katniss + Peeta, he removes that possibility -- again, this should make for an entertaining finale for the viewers, and re-asserts the finality of Capitol authority. Up to this point, he's actually proceeding in a very logical way, and achieving all his goals.

Then the berries come out, and he does what anybody would do in that situation: he panics. If he lets them do it...well, that's not very exciting or entertaining for his viewers. And like President Snow said, "We need a winner." That's about as far as he has time to think, I imagine, before he has to react. In his panic, he doesn't realize that getting the winner and having something exciting happen ("suddenly, the rules change! True love triumphs!") aren't nearly as important as the whole "national symbol of defiance" thing. He panicked, he got in a hurry, and he made a mistake.

And he paid for it.

I dunno, I quite disagree with:

Spoiler:

With the double suicide not being entertaining for his viewers. I mean, these are viewers that, obviously, get off on kids killing each other. And two lovers committing suicide due to their love and inability to live without one another? I mean that is Romeo and fucking Juliet right there man, that is like, CLASSIC entertainment. So, you let the two kids kill each other, and then congratulate district 12 on raising such fine and compassionate and wonderful participants and give the district whatever bonuses/benefits that they would have normally gotten for having the winner be from their district. Problem neatly swept under the rug, no?

I think the comparison to make would be, say, the World Series, Super Bowl, or even the World Cup ending

Spoiler:

in a tie. People would not be happy; they want a winner to root for. Same idea here.

Spoiler:

People were pissed when the totally meaningless MLB All-Star game ended in a tie. So... yeah. And the sports were ties were frequent have worked to end them (NHL, college football). People don't like ties.

tbloxham

Atomic Ross wrote: »

The Ender wrote: »

you've just described every autocracy ever. Like. every one. There may be a few exceptions but in pretty much every instance that there's been a strongman, if every citizen simultaneously rose up and cut off the ruling class, they could topple the government in short order, or at least lay siege to them. Kings and monarchs and dictators are rarely in power because they have more REAL power than the entire country put together. In this case, they control distribution of resources. each district produces one thing that is useful but they can't survive off of. in exchange they get just enough of other resources to survive. and did you notice the greatest military weapon district 12 could bring to bear was a bow and arrow? what do you think the capitol's fleet is like, if they can manipulate an arena this size with ease every year?

the districts are isolated, scared, and barely surviving. the capital, while technically vulnerable, holds all the cards because they have soft power over the citizenry, which is again, the case in virtually every dictatorship ever.

Very few of the old autocratic regimes were centralized. There were constant wars, both civil wars and foreign wars, as a result: The old French empire, for example, was largely a collection of vassal states that acted in concert with France out of fear of aggression from the British empire, the Portuguese and/or Castille.

Could you name a particular medieval empire that behaves in the way the Capitol does in Hunger Games? That is, it has totalitarian centralized control over a wide range of vassal states, with no apparent outside aggressors to fight against or rally a cause against, it has all of the resources & manpower to not only police but omnisciently monitor the activities of every vassal and it somehow is able to unilaterally crush any vassal state that rebels without inciting a full-blown civil war.

I don't think you'll be able to , because that's never happened, because that's not the way autocratic empires work (and it's certainly not the way totalitarian empires work).

Exactly.

And while I'm prepared to allow the Capitol to not be a completely rational actor, I have significant difficulty believing that the Capitol would have the desire and mandate to spend the appalling amount of money and time and resources it would take to micromanage and enforce law in the Districts as the text (and its defenders) would imply.

Like I said earlier in the thread, it appears the entire Capitol economy runs on the purpose of pointless oppression, like poverty and submission is some kind of tangible commodity. Even assuming the people of the Capitol have a working economy, it would appear that almost all of their GDP and federal expenditures are spent on keeping hillbillies poor and hungry. It's simple math; if you're spending hundreds of billions of dollars ensuring the round-the-clock degradation of a nation of people, where is your income coming from? More over, what are you getting from it?

The way I interpretted this in the book was that the technology of the Capitol made all this oppressing the districts stuff pointless, they didn't need the coal and fish, most of it just got dumped back in a hole. President Snow (and his predecessors) had set the system up in order to get the things that their technology couldn't just whip up, fear, respect and power over others. So the entire purpose of the districts was to keep the people in the capitol afraid enough that they wouldn't think of questioning president Snow, and to allow him to maintain a large enough standing army of indoctrinated thugs to arrest anyone who spoke against him.

kime

jdarksun wrote: »

kime wrote: »

jdarksun wrote: »

Drez wrote: »

Jdarksun: Your end-of-book-3 spoiler is kind of unmarked.

What? Where? Under the books discussion spoiler?

Yes. You were just talking about the first movie, so I assumed the spoiler would just be over the first book. It's more marked now though, that's good.

Gah, I'm really sorry @Drez and @kime. Let me know if there's some sort of penance for my crimes.

Muahahahahahaha

...... I'll get back to you on that

No worries though, I only read the first few words, so I'm just convincing myself I didn't read enough to understand what you were talking about or remember, haha

Jubal77

tbloxham wrote: »

Atomic Ross wrote: »

The Ender wrote: »

you've just described every autocracy ever. Like. every one. There may be a few exceptions but in pretty much every instance that there's been a strongman, if every citizen simultaneously rose up and cut off the ruling class, they could topple the government in short order, or at least lay siege to them. Kings and monarchs and dictators are rarely in power because they have more REAL power than the entire country put together. In this case, they control distribution of resources. each district produces one thing that is useful but they can't survive off of. in exchange they get just enough of other resources to survive. and did you notice the greatest military weapon district 12 could bring to bear was a bow and arrow? what do you think the capitol's fleet is like, if they can manipulate an arena this size with ease every year?

the districts are isolated, scared, and barely surviving. the capital, while technically vulnerable, holds all the cards because they have soft power over the citizenry, which is again, the case in virtually every dictatorship ever.

Very few of the old autocratic regimes were centralized. There were constant wars, both civil wars and foreign wars, as a result: The old French empire, for example, was largely a collection of vassal states that acted in concert with France out of fear of aggression from the British empire, the Portuguese and/or Castille.

Could you name a particular medieval empire that behaves in the way the Capitol does in Hunger Games? That is, it has totalitarian centralized control over a wide range of vassal states, with no apparent outside aggressors to fight against or rally a cause against, it has all of the resources & manpower to not only police but omnisciently monitor the activities of every vassal and it somehow is able to unilaterally crush any vassal state that rebels without inciting a full-blown civil war.

I don't think you'll be able to , because that's never happened, because that's not the way autocratic empires work (and it's certainly not the way totalitarian empires work).

Exactly.

And while I'm prepared to allow the Capitol to not be a completely rational actor, I have significant difficulty believing that the Capitol would have the desire and mandate to spend the appalling amount of money and time and resources it would take to micromanage and enforce law in the Districts as the text (and its defenders) would imply.

Like I said earlier in the thread, it appears the entire Capitol economy runs on the purpose of pointless oppression, like poverty and submission is some kind of tangible commodity. Even assuming the people of the Capitol have a working economy, it would appear that almost all of their GDP and federal expenditures are spent on keeping hillbillies poor and hungry. It's simple math; if you're spending hundreds of billions of dollars ensuring the round-the-clock degradation of a nation of people, where is your income coming from? More over, what are you getting from it?

The way I interpretted this in the book was that the technology of the Capitol made all this oppressing the districts stuff pointless, they didn't need the coal and fish, most of it just got dumped back in a hole. President Snow (and his predecessors) had set the system up in order to get the things that their technology couldn't just whip up, fear, respect and power over others. So the entire purpose of the districts was to keep the people in the capitol afraid enough that they wouldn't think of questioning president Snow, and to allow him to maintain a large enough standing army of indoctrinated thugs to arrest anyone who spoke against him.

So reading through this thread it looks like the movies did a piss poor job setting up just how oppresive and decedant the Capitol is and why the Hunger Games take place. I have yet to see the movie as I dont want to have a ton of teens in the theatre when I do see it. It just doesnt make an enjoyable movie experience these days.

If you want to know more about the Capitol from the quotes above read the spoiler:

Spoiler:

The capitol indeed has technology in its corner. This shows up in the book several times. I dont want to spoil too much but the biggest representation of this is from the electrified fence that Katniss has to bypass to go hunting. It kills you if you touch it. The Hunger Games were started because of a rebellion that was squashed by the Capitol. The population doesnt have a choice in this matter. It was setup to keep the Districts in line as they are forced to watch their kids fight to the death. All districts are not created equal either. Katniss is from the poorest of Districts and is not on the upper side of importance to the capitol so security has been lax there but the coal is still needed because of the decedance. The Capitol does need the districts. If you dont follow the rules you are either flogged in public or just plain killed. The population is essentially a broken society that is given just enough food to exist and to work. That is it.

kime

Jubal77 wrote: »

tbloxham wrote: »

Atomic Ross wrote: »

The Ender wrote: »

you've just described every autocracy ever. Like. every one. There may be a few exceptions but in pretty much every instance that there's been a strongman, if every citizen simultaneously rose up and cut off the ruling class, they could topple the government in short order, or at least lay siege to them. Kings and monarchs and dictators are rarely in power because they have more REAL power than the entire country put together. In this case, they control distribution of resources. each district produces one thing that is useful but they can't survive off of. in exchange they get just enough of other resources to survive. and did you notice the greatest military weapon district 12 could bring to bear was a bow and arrow? what do you think the capitol's fleet is like, if they can manipulate an arena this size with ease every year?

the districts are isolated, scared, and barely surviving. the capital, while technically vulnerable, holds all the cards because they have soft power over the citizenry, which is again, the case in virtually every dictatorship ever.

Very few of the old autocratic regimes were centralized. There were constant wars, both civil wars and foreign wars, as a result: The old French empire, for example, was largely a collection of vassal states that acted in concert with France out of fear of aggression from the British empire, the Portuguese and/or Castille.

Could you name a particular medieval empire that behaves in the way the Capitol does in Hunger Games? That is, it has totalitarian centralized control over a wide range of vassal states, with no apparent outside aggressors to fight against or rally a cause against, it has all of the resources & manpower to not only police but omnisciently monitor the activities of every vassal and it somehow is able to unilaterally crush any vassal state that rebels without inciting a full-blown civil war.

I don't think you'll be able to , because that's never happened, because that's not the way autocratic empires work (and it's certainly not the way totalitarian empires work).

Exactly.

And while I'm prepared to allow the Capitol to not be a completely rational actor, I have significant difficulty believing that the Capitol would have the desire and mandate to spend the appalling amount of money and time and resources it would take to micromanage and enforce law in the Districts as the text (and its defenders) would imply.

Like I said earlier in the thread, it appears the entire Capitol economy runs on the purpose of pointless oppression, like poverty and submission is some kind of tangible commodity. Even assuming the people of the Capitol have a working economy, it would appear that almost all of their GDP and federal expenditures are spent on keeping hillbillies poor and hungry. It's simple math; if you're spending hundreds of billions of dollars ensuring the round-the-clock degradation of a nation of people, where is your income coming from? More over, what are you getting from it?

The way I interpretted this in the book was that the technology of the Capitol made all this oppressing the districts stuff pointless, they didn't need the coal and fish, most of it just got dumped back in a hole. President Snow (and his predecessors) had set the system up in order to get the things that their technology couldn't just whip up, fear, respect and power over others. So the entire purpose of the districts was to keep the people in the capitol afraid enough that they wouldn't think of questioning president Snow, and to allow him to maintain a large enough standing army of indoctrinated thugs to arrest anyone who spoke against him.

So reading through this thread it looks like the movies did a piss poor job setting up just how oppresive and decedant the Capitol is and why the Hunger Games take place. I have yet to see the movie as I dont want to have a ton of teens in the theatre when I do see it. It just doesnt make an enjoyable movie experience these days.

If you want to know more about the Capitol from the quotes above read the spoiler:

Spoiler:

The capitol indeed has technology in its corner. This shows up in the book several times. The biggest representation of this is from the electrified fence that Katniss has to bypass to go hunting. It kills you if you touch it. The Hunger Games were started because of a rebellion that was squashed by the Capitol. The population doesnt have a choice in this matter. It was setup to keep the Districts in line as they are forced to watch their kids fight to the death. All districts are not created equal either. Katniss is from the poorest of Districts and is not on the upper side of importance to the capitol so security has been lax there but the coal is still needed because of the decedance. If you dont follow the rules you are either flogged in public or just plain killed. The population is essentially a broken society that is given just enough food to exist and to work. That is it.

The movie does a better job of showing these things than this thread would have you believe, in all honesty. But it could've been better. Still, some of the additions to the movie were great.

Drez

kime wrote: »

jdarksun wrote: »

kime wrote: »

jdarksun wrote: »

Drez wrote: »

Jdarksun: Your end-of-book-3 spoiler is kind of unmarked.

What? Where? Under the books discussion spoiler?

Yes. You were just talking about the first movie, so I assumed the spoiler would just be over the first book. It's more marked now though, that's good.

Gah, I'm really sorry @Drez and @kime. Let me know if there's some sort of penance for my crimes.

Muahahahahahaha

...... I'll get back to you on that

No worries though, I only read the first few words, so I'm just convincing myself I didn't read enough to understand what you were talking about or remember, haha

I read all three books so it didn't really affect me in a direct way - I'm just polishing my Junior Spoiler Policeman's badge.

CanadianWolverine

They don't give badges to us spoiler criminals, just monies and women if you live long enough

Shawnasee

I've never seen someone so doggedly attack something as Ross did with this movie. The more I read your complaints the more I kept thinking you just wanted to hate it because it's popular.


Regardless, my wife and I read the books and we have been waiting on this movie since we first heard it was being made. So we went in with high hopes.

It exceeded all of our expectations.

Lawrence was fabulous but the dude that played Peeta was genuinely making me feel for him when he got called for the reaping. Just shock. He portrayed that well. He was fabulous too.
The weak link in the acting department was Thor's little brother, the dude that played Gale and Kravitz. Wasn't feeling them at all.

I liked the cinematography and the shaky cam didn't distract me in this movie as it does with so many others.

I walked out of a 2 and a half hour movie wanting more and I contemplated going back in and seeing it again.

To me, it was a good movie, not just a good movie/book adaptation but just a really, really good movie.