Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

The Generational Issue

145791017

Posts

  • EuphoriacEuphoriac Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    That skills shortage Casual mentioned almost makes me nihilistically excited for what the future may hold, not to mention pure fascination.

    I wonder if we're going to see a MASSIVE turn-around in hiring to the point where people will finally once again be approached in colleges and universities by these companies desperate to fill the vacant void left by those currently 45 to 60.

    But, knowing the way the world has been going lately, we'd just be beaten by the developing world...

    Euphoriac on
    steam_sig.png
  • Fallout2manFallout2man Registered User regular
    My prediction is it will get worse, and worse, until finally the poor realize that if they're hungry with nothing else to lose, they can just eat the rich.

    On Ignorance:
    Kana wrote:
    If the best you can come up with against someone who's patently ignorant is to yell back at him, "Yeah? Well there's BOOKS, and they say you're WRONG!"

    Then honestly you're not coming out of this looking great either.
  • CasualCasual flap flap flap wiggle wiggle wiggle Registered User regular
    Euphoriac wrote: »
    That skills shortage Casual mentioned almost makes me nihilistically excited for what the future may hold, not to mention pure fascination.

    I wonder if we're going to see a MASSIVE turn-around in hiring to the point where people will finally once again be approached in collages and universities by these companies desperate to fill the vacant void left by those currently 45 to 60.

    But, knowing the way the world has been going lately, we'd just be beaten by the developing world...

    Nah, far more likely is that in ten years when the shit hits the fan they'll start grabbing people right out of collage and universities again. By that point people like us will have been out of education for 15-20 years with nothing but shelf stacking experience under our belts. In other words, no matter what the future holds it won't be good for you or me.

    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
  • Magus`Magus` Registered User regular
    'Collage', eh?

  • BamelinBamelin Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    "get a job at a soon to be successful startup" is a plan like "bet your paycheck on black" is a plan.
    I know right? People act like 90% of startups aren't failures or something and end up with people working without even getting paid oft times.
    You guys are missing the bigger picture. Whether or not the startup is successful is besides the point. The experience that you get working in a startup is where the value is. It gives you ammunition for your resume ... often in an area you wouldn't have a hope in hell of ever having gotten experience in at a corporate job. Experience that can be leveraged down the road to get you into a proper paying corporate job that demands "experience". Because start ups are typically small you end up wearing multiple hats ... which means multiple transferable skillsets that can be used on your resume. Your title and responsibilities are usually more senior than would be possible if applying corporate.

    If the startup fails it can still be something that helps you get ahead. Personally I'd much rather work at a start up that comes with a paycheque and gain important skills, rather than doing an unpaid internship.

    And there IS the possibility of the start up succeeding in a huge way allowing you to leverage the stock ownership they typically give out like candy in a startups early phase.

    The key to startups is to do your homework. How much is the company being funded? Who is the venture capitalist/venture company doing the funding? Is the company on the wire or something that can provide a steady paycheque and experience for the next couple of years?
    When a startup fails, that's not a glorious, resume-enhancing line on your resume; that's a question you have to figure out how to clarify in your job interview. "Why did you leave your last job?" "The company failed." "What did you do for them?" "Oh, I did tons of stuff, all of which I was amazing at." "Then why did the company fail?"

    That's not good resume fodder, that's an albatross around your neck. And don't forget that even if they do become hugely successful, they can just tell you to fuck the hell off, getting rich is for people who are already rich, not for you. God forbid you have some chef or something making his bones with a startup and retiring; that would just be the fucking end of the world.


    Sorry but I completely disagree. In today's economy you can get laid off for any reason at all ... be it a public job suffering from government budget cutbacks, a corporate company downsizing or a startup that shuts down. Companies don't care why you left your last job provided you weren't fired. What they care about is the skills you bring to the table.

    I say this as an Employment Counsellor. For the last six years I've worked as a Job Coach, Case Manager/Employment Counsellor and Group Facilitator. The "on the ground" skills you bring to the table are king in this economy, trumping even post secondary education.

    Working at a startup provides valuable skills you otherwise would not have along with a reference provided you are smart enough to linkin with your manager. The reasons to work at a startup are the same as those reasons people work in unpaid internships. The ability to acquire the marketable skills that "established" corporate companies lust after.

    You know how they say, "Those who can't do, teach?" You have no idea what makes a good employee. You have a made-up job where you apparently give really bad advice to people about how they should go get jobs that you, yourself, can't get. Your advice is AWFUL.
    .

    *shrug*. You don't have to agree with me, that's fine, obviously you are entitled to your opinion, although the personal attacks I find sad given you know nothing about me.

    Start ups can sometimes provide potential opportunities for Millenials to get paid employment in their field, relatively soon after graduating. I've seen it happening and for many people that's a better option than an unpaid internship.

  • CasualCasual flap flap flap wiggle wiggle wiggle Registered User regular
    Magus` wrote: »
    'Collage', eh?

    Haha yes I made a spelling error. What fun.

    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
  • Magus`Magus` Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    Magus` wrote: »
    'Collage', eh?

    Haha yes I made a spelling error. What fun.

    Both of you did! I only pointed it out cause it's funny in a post about the value of education.
    8->

  • EuphoriacEuphoriac Registered User regular
    Oh shit, missed that. Hey collages can be fun too!

    steam_sig.png
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    "get a job at a soon to be successful startup" is a plan like "bet your paycheck on black" is a plan.
    I know right? People act like 90% of startups aren't failures or something and end up with people working without even getting paid oft times.
    You guys are missing the bigger picture. Whether or not the startup is successful is besides the point. The experience that you get working in a startup is where the value is. It gives you ammunition for your resume ... often in an area you wouldn't have a hope in hell of ever having gotten experience in at a corporate job. Experience that can be leveraged down the road to get you into a proper paying corporate job that demands "experience". Because start ups are typically small you end up wearing multiple hats ... which means multiple transferable skillsets that can be used on your resume. Your title and responsibilities are usually more senior than would be possible if applying corporate.

    If the startup fails it can still be something that helps you get ahead. Personally I'd much rather work at a start up that comes with a paycheque and gain important skills, rather than doing an unpaid internship.

    And there IS the possibility of the start up succeeding in a huge way allowing you to leverage the stock ownership they typically give out like candy in a startups early phase.

    The key to startups is to do your homework. How much is the company being funded? Who is the venture capitalist/venture company doing the funding? Is the company on the wire or something that can provide a steady paycheque and experience for the next couple of years?
    When a startup fails, that's not a glorious, resume-enhancing line on your resume; that's a question you have to figure out how to clarify in your job interview. "Why did you leave your last job?" "The company failed." "What did you do for them?" "Oh, I did tons of stuff, all of which I was amazing at." "Then why did the company fail?"

    That's not good resume fodder, that's an albatross around your neck. And don't forget that even if they do become hugely successful, they can just tell you to fuck the hell off, getting rich is for people who are already rich, not for you. God forbid you have some chef or something making his bones with a startup and retiring; that would just be the fucking end of the world.


    Sorry but I completely disagree. In today's economy you can get laid off for any reason at all ... be it a public job suffering from government budget cutbacks, a corporate company downsizing or a startup that shuts down. Companies don't care why you left your last job provided you weren't fired. What they care about is the skills you bring to the table.

    I say this as an Employment Counsellor. For the last six years I've worked as a Job Coach, Case Manager/Employment Counsellor and Group Facilitator. The "on the ground" skills you bring to the table are king in this economy, trumping even post secondary education.

    Working at a startup provides valuable skills you otherwise would not have along with a reference provided you are smart enough to linkin with your manager. The reasons to work at a startup are the same as those reasons people work in unpaid internships. The ability to acquire the marketable skills that "established" corporate companies lust after.

    You know how they say, "Those who can't do, teach?" You have no idea what makes a good employee. You have a made-up job where you apparently give really bad advice to people about how they should go get jobs that you, yourself, can't get. Your advice is AWFUL.
    .

    *shrug*. You don't have to agree with me, that's fine, obviously you are entitled to your opinion, although the personal attacks I find sad given you know nothing about me.

    Start ups can sometimes provide potential opportunities for Millenials to get paid employment in their field, relatively soon after graduating. I've seen it happening and for many people that's a better option than an unpaid internship.

    I don't really know how else to say, "Your advice is awful and the fact that you professionally dispense your bad advice terrifies me." It does come across personally, because it's very personal. I don't mean to impugn your likeability as a bloke with whom beers could be had. You should probably stop giving young people very bad advice about job seeking when your job is giving good advice, though.

    Brave Frontier for Android and iOS. Final Fantasy-ish graphics/basic gameplay with a Puzzles & Dragons/Rage of Bahamut collection model.
    My referral code is: 81123930, which gets you a thing to level your guys.
  • Fallout2manFallout2man Registered User regular
    Maybe we need to pass some sort of new law that replaces H.R. directors with an impartial algorithm designed to pick candidates meritocratically (with a random lottery if a bunch of candidates are roughly equivalent skill/experience wise for the position)? It might not solve everything, but at least it'd make hiring more fair and less prone to being gamed by insiders.

    On Ignorance:
    Kana wrote:
    If the best you can come up with against someone who's patently ignorant is to yell back at him, "Yeah? Well there's BOOKS, and they say you're WRONG!"

    Then honestly you're not coming out of this looking great either.
  • DeebaserDeebaser At the corporate garage sale This is cheap and plentifulRegistered User regular
    Maybe we need to pass some sort of new law that replaces H.R. directors with an impartial algorithm designed to pick candidates meritocratically (with a random lottery if a bunch of candidates are roughly equivalent skill/experience wise for the position)? It might not solve everything, but at least it'd make hiring more fair and less prone to being gamed by insiders.

    No. God, that would be awful. Do you have any idea how many resumes I've seen that have absolutely no bearing on the individuals skillset?

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Maybe we need to pass some sort of new law that replaces H.R. directors with an impartial algorithm designed to pick candidates meritocratically (with a random lottery if a bunch of candidates are roughly equivalent skill/experience wise for the position)? It might not solve everything, but at least it'd make hiring more fair and less prone to being gamed by insiders.

    Then you end up with something like the federal hiring process, which most people will tell you is also not a particularly useful way to do things.

    Brave Frontier for Android and iOS. Final Fantasy-ish graphics/basic gameplay with a Puzzles & Dragons/Rage of Bahamut collection model.
    My referral code is: 81123930, which gets you a thing to level your guys.
  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    I don't know, hearing back about an application two years after the fact certainly makes life exciting.

    adytum on
    etxvv5.jpg
  • BamelinBamelin Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    "get a job at a soon to be successful startup" is a plan like "bet your paycheck on black" is a plan.
    I know right? People act like 90% of startups aren't failures or something and end up with people working without even getting paid oft times.
    You guys are missing the bigger picture. Whether or not the startup is successful is besides the point. The experience that you get working in a startup is where the value is. It gives you ammunition for your resume ... often in an area you wouldn't have a hope in hell of ever having gotten experience in at a corporate job. Experience that can be leveraged down the road to get you into a proper paying corporate job that demands "experience". Because start ups are typically small you end up wearing multiple hats ... which means multiple transferable skillsets that can be used on your resume. Your title and responsibilities are usually more senior than would be possible if applying corporate.

    If the startup fails it can still be something that helps you get ahead. Personally I'd much rather work at a start up that comes with a paycheque and gain important skills, rather than doing an unpaid internship.

    And there IS the possibility of the start up succeeding in a huge way allowing you to leverage the stock ownership they typically give out like candy in a startups early phase.

    The key to startups is to do your homework. How much is the company being funded? Who is the venture capitalist/venture company doing the funding? Is the company on the wire or something that can provide a steady paycheque and experience for the next couple of years?
    When a startup fails, that's not a glorious, resume-enhancing line on your resume; that's a question you have to figure out how to clarify in your job interview. "Why did you leave your last job?" "The company failed." "What did you do for them?" "Oh, I did tons of stuff, all of which I was amazing at." "Then why did the company fail?"

    That's not good resume fodder, that's an albatross around your neck. And don't forget that even if they do become hugely successful, they can just tell you to fuck the hell off, getting rich is for people who are already rich, not for you. God forbid you have some chef or something making his bones with a startup and retiring; that would just be the fucking end of the world.


    Sorry but I completely disagree. In today's economy you can get laid off for any reason at all ... be it a public job suffering from government budget cutbacks, a corporate company downsizing or a startup that shuts down. Companies don't care why you left your last job provided you weren't fired. What they care about is the skills you bring to the table.

    I say this as an Employment Counsellor. For the last six years I've worked as a Job Coach, Case Manager/Employment Counsellor and Group Facilitator. The "on the ground" skills you bring to the table are king in this economy, trumping even post secondary education.

    Working at a startup provides valuable skills you otherwise would not have along with a reference provided you are smart enough to linkin with your manager. The reasons to work at a startup are the same as those reasons people work in unpaid internships. The ability to acquire the marketable skills that "established" corporate companies lust after.

    You know how they say, "Those who can't do, teach?" You have no idea what makes a good employee. You have a made-up job where you apparently give really bad advice to people about how they should go get jobs that you, yourself, can't get. Your advice is AWFUL.
    .

    *shrug*. You don't have to agree with me, that's fine, obviously you are entitled to your opinion, although the personal attacks I find sad given you know nothing about me.

    Start ups can sometimes provide potential opportunities for Millenials to get paid employment in their field, relatively soon after graduating. I've seen it happening and for many people that's a better option than an unpaid internship.

    I don't really know how else to say, "Your advice is awful and the fact that you professionally dispense your bad advice terrifies me." It does come across personally, because it's very personal. I don't mean to impugn your likeability as a bloke with whom beers could be had. You should probably stop giving young people very bad advice about job seeking when your job is giving good advice, though.

    As an Employment Counsellor one of the things i do is to provide clients with options, along with getting clients to look at the pros and cons that they see of each option. In the end as a constructivist counsellor it's up to each client I see to chart their own course.

    Unpaid internship? pro: gain new skills with a recognized firm and possible paid employment down the road. Con: unpaid free labour with no guarantee of employment

    Work at a Startup? Pro: gain new skills, easier to land after graduating, get paid employment right away. Con: company may fold, possibility of long hours, company not known/recognized, lack of benefits, etc,

    Life is about choices and recognizing that different choices leads down different paths. I personally think the pro's of looking at a start up outweighs the negatives but that's just me. Others in this thread have given serious reasons why they feel opposite.

    If you'd like to debate, let's debate, not resort to YOU ARE WRONG AND ADVICE STUPID responses.

    Bamelin on
  • shrykeshryke Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Maybe we need to pass some sort of new law that replaces H.R. directors with an impartial algorithm designed to pick candidates meritocratically (with a random lottery if a bunch of candidates are roughly equivalent skill/experience wise for the position)? It might not solve everything, but at least it'd make hiring more fair and less prone to being gamed by insiders.

    Then you end up with something like the federal hiring process, which most people will tell you is also not a particularly useful way to do things.

    Government hiring processes are usually considered "not good" only because they aren't the traditional format. Except the traditional format sucks ass, provably and government hiring processes generally work pretty well from my experience.

  • PopeTiberiiPopeTiberii Registered User
    edited April 2012
    adytum wrote: »
    I don't know, hearing back about an application two years after the fact certainly makes life exciting.

    Well, you can get that at just about any corporation, too. I applied somewhere about 9 months ago, and only just got a notice that my resume was sent on to phase two HR for that position.

    And talking to people that work there, it can take 1.5 years from application to interview..

    PopeTiberii on
    steam_sig.png
  • L Ron HowardL Ron Howard Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    The elephant in the room that everyone is fervently looking away from is that the bottom rung of the employment ladder is gone now. There are no jobs that don't require experience. In my industry especially, the oil industry, the problem is laughably obvious. The first day I started my job a geophysicist told me that in the next 5-10 years something like 60-70% of all the people in his profession were due to retire. They're in a system where there's a shrinking pool of workers to draw from and the industry is scraping along by headhunting specialists away from each other at ever greater prices because no one is willing to train new ones or even hire ones with less than a few decades of experience. The industry is heading towards a very obvious skills shortage in the next few years which they refuse to address because *gasp* that would involve training and hiring people younger than 40.

    My dad is facing this right now. What he does is nothing incredibly special, I would think; just applied logic. Yet he is soon to retire and most of his colleagues either have or are also about to retire. He is not training anyone, and neither has any of his colleagues. Considering what he does, I imagine his company all-but collapsing when he does, as he's busy putting out fires as it is due to the no replacements thing.

    And doesn't a large chunk of the population learn from others teaching them how to do things? I mean, that's why we have teachers, right?

    One other thing that I guess I've noticed, comparing myself and my father, is that he is a company man, and has been for 25+ years. I don't know if anyone around my age that has stuck with a place for more than five, to be honest. As someone said, we're a generation of mercenaries or whores. We go where the money and needs are. We get poached and passed around, and have no real loyalty to anyone but ourselves. I wonder how this came to be.

    steam_sig.png
    NNID - bejamus | ESO - (at)guinneapig
  • DeebaserDeebaser At the corporate garage sale This is cheap and plentifulRegistered User regular
    Bamelin wrote: »

    *shrug*. You don't have to agree with me, that's fine, obviously you are entitled to your opinion, although the personal attacks I find sad given you know nothing about me.

    Start ups can sometimes provide potential opportunities for Millenials to get paid employment in their field, relatively soon after graduating. I've seen it happening and for many people that's a better option than an unpaid internship.

    I don't want to go with personal attacks, but your advice and insight regarding start ups is terrible. Getting involved in a start up is a terrible idea for someone with no work experience if they can get literally ANYTHING else. The type of start up that would even hire someone without demonstrated results is not long for this world.

    Anecdote time: A buddy of mine left his cushy boring dev job at a major bank to do the start up thing. It failed (Surprise!) and set him back about 5 years careerwise.

    I'd rather freelance than work for a start up, and imo freelancing sssssuuuuuuccccccckkkkkksssss.

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    "get a job at a soon to be successful startup" is a plan like "bet your paycheck on black" is a plan.
    I know right? People act like 90% of startups aren't failures or something and end up with people working without even getting paid oft times.
    You guys are missing the bigger picture. Whether or not the startup is successful is besides the point. The experience that you get working in a startup is where the value is. It gives you ammunition for your resume ... often in an area you wouldn't have a hope in hell of ever having gotten experience in at a corporate job. Experience that can be leveraged down the road to get you into a proper paying corporate job that demands "experience". Because start ups are typically small you end up wearing multiple hats ... which means multiple transferable skillsets that can be used on your resume. Your title and responsibilities are usually more senior than would be possible if applying corporate.

    If the startup fails it can still be something that helps you get ahead. Personally I'd much rather work at a start up that comes with a paycheque and gain important skills, rather than doing an unpaid internship.

    And there IS the possibility of the start up succeeding in a huge way allowing you to leverage the stock ownership they typically give out like candy in a startups early phase.

    The key to startups is to do your homework. How much is the company being funded? Who is the venture capitalist/venture company doing the funding? Is the company on the wire or something that can provide a steady paycheque and experience for the next couple of years?
    When a startup fails, that's not a glorious, resume-enhancing line on your resume; that's a question you have to figure out how to clarify in your job interview. "Why did you leave your last job?" "The company failed." "What did you do for them?" "Oh, I did tons of stuff, all of which I was amazing at." "Then why did the company fail?"

    That's not good resume fodder, that's an albatross around your neck. And don't forget that even if they do become hugely successful, they can just tell you to fuck the hell off, getting rich is for people who are already rich, not for you. God forbid you have some chef or something making his bones with a startup and retiring; that would just be the fucking end of the world.


    Sorry but I completely disagree. In today's economy you can get laid off for any reason at all ... be it a public job suffering from government budget cutbacks, a corporate company downsizing or a startup that shuts down. Companies don't care why you left your last job provided you weren't fired. What they care about is the skills you bring to the table.

    I say this as an Employment Counsellor. For the last six years I've worked as a Job Coach, Case Manager/Employment Counsellor and Group Facilitator. The "on the ground" skills you bring to the table are king in this economy, trumping even post secondary education.

    Working at a startup provides valuable skills you otherwise would not have along with a reference provided you are smart enough to linkin with your manager. The reasons to work at a startup are the same as those reasons people work in unpaid internships. The ability to acquire the marketable skills that "established" corporate companies lust after.

    You know how they say, "Those who can't do, teach?" You have no idea what makes a good employee. You have a made-up job where you apparently give really bad advice to people about how they should go get jobs that you, yourself, can't get. Your advice is AWFUL.
    .

    *shrug*. You don't have to agree with me, that's fine, obviously you are entitled to your opinion, although the personal attacks I find sad given you know nothing about me.

    Start ups can sometimes provide potential opportunities for Millenials to get paid employment in their field, relatively soon after graduating. I've seen it happening and for many people that's a better option than an unpaid internship.

    I don't really know how else to say, "Your advice is awful and the fact that you professionally dispense your bad advice terrifies me." It does come across personally, because it's very personal. I don't mean to impugn your likeability as a bloke with whom beers could be had. You should probably stop giving young people very bad advice about job seeking when your job is giving good advice, though.

    As an Employment Counsellor one of the things i do is to provide clients with options, along with getting clients to look at the pros and cons that they see of each option. In the end as a constructivist counsellor it's up to each client I see to chart their own course.

    Unpaid internship? pro: gain new skills with a recognized firm and possible paid employment down the road. Con: unpaid free labour with no guarantee of employment

    Work at a Startup? Pro: gain new skills, easier to land after graduating, get paid employment right away. Con: company may fold, possibility of long hours, company not known/recognized, lack of benefits, etc,

    Life is about choices and recognizing that different choices leads down different paths. I personally think the pro's of looking at a start up outweighs the negatives but that's just me. Others in this thread have given serious reasons why they feel opposite.

    If you'd like to debate, let's debate, not resort to YOU ARE WRONG AND ADVICE STUPID responses.

    Well, the way you phrased it just now is definitely much more reasonable an examination of the potential options available to someone. What you were saying earlier seemed to suggest that you were advocating working at a start-up as the absolute best way to have a career. I vehemently disagree with that. I've done quite a bit of work at smaller companies, and I'd say most people aren't suited to it. Most people are much more comfortable in a job where the path to success is more understandable and available to them, without all the inherent risk and likely high costs associated with breaking your back at a start-up.

    Brave Frontier for Android and iOS. Final Fantasy-ish graphics/basic gameplay with a Puzzles & Dragons/Rage of Bahamut collection model.
    My referral code is: 81123930, which gets you a thing to level your guys.
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    One other thing that I guess I've noticed, comparing myself and my father, is that he is a company man, and has been for 25+ years. I don't know if anyone around my age that has stuck with a place for more than five, to be honest. As someone said, we're a generation of mercenaries or whores. We go where the money and needs are. We get poached and passed around, and have no real loyalty to anyone but ourselves. I wonder how this came to be.
    Because we spent our time after college working in "temporary" jobs with no benefits, only to be fired when we requested better pay or got sick. So now, since we know our employers only keep us around because they think it would cost them more to get rid of us, we have no reason to show any loyalty at all to them. And since the guy who asks for the raise is likely to be the first one laid off, you're way better off going to work someplace else that just starts by paying you more.

    What I'm saying is that it's not the employees who have gotten more mercenary; it's the employers. And there's no reason for anyone to show loyalty to anyone who isn't going to show loyalty to them.

  • BamelinBamelin Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    "get a job at a soon to be successful startup" is a plan like "bet your paycheck on black" is a plan.
    I know right? People act like 90% of startups aren't failures or something and end up with people working without even getting paid oft times.
    You guys are missing the bigger picture. Whether or not the startup is successful is besides the point. The experience that you get working in a startup is where the value is. It gives you ammunition for your resume ... often in an area you wouldn't have a hope in hell of ever having gotten experience in at a corporate job. Experience that can be leveraged down the road to get you into a proper paying corporate job that demands "experience". Because start ups are typically small you end up wearing multiple hats ... which means multiple transferable skillsets that can be used on your resume. Your title and responsibilities are usually more senior than would be possible if applying corporate.

    If the startup fails it can still be something that helps you get ahead. Personally I'd much rather work at a start up that comes with a paycheque and gain important skills, rather than doing an unpaid internship.

    And there IS the possibility of the start up succeeding in a huge way allowing you to leverage the stock ownership they typically give out like candy in a startups early phase.

    The key to startups is to do your homework. How much is the company being funded? Who is the venture capitalist/venture company doing the funding? Is the company on the wire or something that can provide a steady paycheque and experience for the next couple of years?
    When a startup fails, that's not a glorious, resume-enhancing line on your resume; that's a question you have to figure out how to clarify in your job interview. "Why did you leave your last job?" "The company failed." "What did you do for them?" "Oh, I did tons of stuff, all of which I was amazing at." "Then why did the company fail?"

    That's not good resume fodder, that's an albatross around your neck. And don't forget that even if they do become hugely successful, they can just tell you to fuck the hell off, getting rich is for people who are already rich, not for you. God forbid you have some chef or something making his bones with a startup and retiring; that would just be the fucking end of the world.


    Sorry but I completely disagree. In today's economy you can get laid off for any reason at all ... be it a public job suffering from government budget cutbacks, a corporate company downsizing or a startup that shuts down. Companies don't care why you left your last job provided you weren't fired. What they care about is the skills you bring to the table.

    I say this as an Employment Counsellor. For the last six years I've worked as a Job Coach, Case Manager/Employment Counsellor and Group Facilitator. The "on the ground" skills you bring to the table are king in this economy, trumping even post secondary education.

    Working at a startup provides valuable skills you otherwise would not have along with a reference provided you are smart enough to linkin with your manager. The reasons to work at a startup are the same as those reasons people work in unpaid internships. The ability to acquire the marketable skills that "established" corporate companies lust after.

    You know how they say, "Those who can't do, teach?" You have no idea what makes a good employee. You have a made-up job where you apparently give really bad advice to people about how they should go get jobs that you, yourself, can't get. Your advice is AWFUL.
    .

    *shrug*. You don't have to agree with me, that's fine, obviously you are entitled to your opinion, although the personal attacks I find sad given you know nothing about me.

    Start ups can sometimes provide potential opportunities for Millenials to get paid employment in their field, relatively soon after graduating. I've seen it happening and for many people that's a better option than an unpaid internship.

    I don't really know how else to say, "Your advice is awful and the fact that you professionally dispense your bad advice terrifies me." It does come across personally, because it's very personal. I don't mean to impugn your likeability as a bloke with whom beers could be had. You should probably stop giving young people very bad advice about job seeking when your job is giving good advice, though.

    As an Employment Counsellor one of the things i do is to provide clients with options, along with getting clients to look at the pros and cons that they see of each option. In the end as a constructivist counsellor it's up to each client I see to chart their own course.

    Unpaid internship? pro: gain new skills with a recognized firm and possible paid employment down the road. Con: unpaid free labour with no guarantee of employment

    Work at a Startup? Pro: gain new skills, easier to land after graduating, get paid employment right away. Con: company may fold, possibility of long hours, company not known/recognized, lack of benefits, etc,

    Life is about choices and recognizing that different choices leads down different paths. I personally think the pro's of looking at a start up outweighs the negatives but that's just me. Others in this thread have given serious reasons why they feel opposite.

    If you'd like to debate, let's debate, not resort to YOU ARE WRONG AND ADVICE STUPID responses.

    Well, the way you phrased it just now is definitely much more reasonable an examination of the potential options available to someone. What you were saying earlier seemed to suggest that you were advocating working at a start-up as the absolute best way to have a career. I vehemently disagree with that. I've done quite a bit of work at smaller companies, and I'd say most people aren't suited to it. Most people are much more comfortable in a job where the path to success is more understandable and available to them, without all the inherent risk and likely high costs associated with breaking your back at a start-up.
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    "get a job at a soon to be successful startup" is a plan like "bet your paycheck on black" is a plan.
    I know right? People act like 90% of startups aren't failures or something and end up with people working without even getting paid oft times.
    You guys are missing the bigger picture. Whether or not the startup is successful is besides the point. The experience that you get working in a startup is where the value is. It gives you ammunition for your resume ... often in an area you wouldn't have a hope in hell of ever having gotten experience in at a corporate job. Experience that can be leveraged down the road to get you into a proper paying corporate job that demands "experience". Because start ups are typically small you end up wearing multiple hats ... which means multiple transferable skillsets that can be used on your resume. Your title and responsibilities are usually more senior than would be possible if applying corporate.

    If the startup fails it can still be something that helps you get ahead. Personally I'd much rather work at a start up that comes with a paycheque and gain important skills, rather than doing an unpaid internship.

    And there IS the possibility of the start up succeeding in a huge way allowing you to leverage the stock ownership they typically give out like candy in a startups early phase.

    The key to startups is to do your homework. How much is the company being funded? Who is the venture capitalist/venture company doing the funding? Is the company on the wire or something that can provide a steady paycheque and experience for the next couple of years?
    When a startup fails, that's not a glorious, resume-enhancing line on your resume; that's a question you have to figure out how to clarify in your job interview. "Why did you leave your last job?" "The company failed." "What did you do for them?" "Oh, I did tons of stuff, all of which I was amazing at." "Then why did the company fail?"

    That's not good resume fodder, that's an albatross around your neck. And don't forget that even if they do become hugely successful, they can just tell you to fuck the hell off, getting rich is for people who are already rich, not for you. God forbid you have some chef or something making his bones with a startup and retiring; that would just be the fucking end of the world.


    Sorry but I completely disagree. In today's economy you can get laid off for any reason at all ... be it a public job suffering from government budget cutbacks, a corporate company downsizing or a startup that shuts down. Companies don't care why you left your last job provided you weren't fired. What they care about is the skills you bring to the table.

    I say this as an Employment Counsellor. For the last six years I've worked as a Job Coach, Case Manager/Employment Counsellor and Group Facilitator. The "on the ground" skills you bring to the table are king in this economy, trumping even post secondary education.

    Working at a startup provides valuable skills you otherwise would not have along with a reference provided you are smart enough to linkin with your manager. The reasons to work at a startup are the same as those reasons people work in unpaid internships. The ability to acquire the marketable skills that "established" corporate companies lust after.

    You know how they say, "Those who can't do, teach?" You have no idea what makes a good employee. You have a made-up job where you apparently give really bad advice to people about how they should go get jobs that you, yourself, can't get. Your advice is AWFUL.
    .

    *shrug*. You don't have to agree with me, that's fine, obviously you are entitled to your opinion, although the personal attacks I find sad given you know nothing about me.

    Start ups can sometimes provide potential opportunities for Millenials to get paid employment in their field, relatively soon after graduating. I've seen it happening and for many people that's a better option than an unpaid internship.

    I don't really know how else to say, "Your advice is awful and the fact that you professionally dispense your bad advice terrifies me." It does come across personally, because it's very personal. I don't mean to impugn your likeability as a bloke with whom beers could be had. You should probably stop giving young people very bad advice about job seeking when your job is giving good advice, though.

    As an Employment Counsellor one of the things i do is to provide clients with options, along with getting clients to look at the pros and cons that they see of each option. In the end as a constructivist counsellor it's up to each client I see to chart their own course.

    Unpaid internship? pro: gain new skills with a recognized firm and possible paid employment down the road. Con: unpaid free labour with no guarantee of employment

    Work at a Startup? Pro: gain new skills, easier to land after graduating, get paid employment right away. Con: company may fold, possibility of long hours, company not known/recognized, lack of benefits, etc,

    Life is about choices and recognizing that different choices leads down different paths. I personally think the pro's of looking at a start up outweighs the negatives but that's just me. Others in this thread have given serious reasons why they feel opposite.

    If you'd like to debate, let's debate, not resort to YOU ARE WRONG AND ADVICE STUPID responses.

    Well, the way you phrased it just now is definitely much more reasonable an examination of the potential options available to someone. What you were saying earlier seemed to suggest that you were advocating working at a start-up as the absolute best way to have a career. I vehemently disagree with that. I've done quite a bit of work at smaller companies, and I'd say most people aren't suited to it. Most people are much more comfortable in a job where the path to success is more understandable and available to them, without all the inherent risk and likely high costs associated with breaking your back at a start-up.

    That's a fair assessment. I suppose my earlier comments did focus on the positives without addressing the negatives. "gravy train" may have been a little optimistic :).

    You are correct that a start up may not be the best way to start a career. What I'm trying to point out is that in this economy, and with so few opportunities available to new grads, working at a start up is one option to consider .... Typically start ups will take new grads in part because they don't have the money to pay somebody with more experience.

    I had an interview a few weeks ago at a start up ... They were hiring for a pr position .... Thing is they said straight up they were looking for a grad as they were looking to pay in the low 30s for a position that would normally pay in the 40s (or more) at a corporate company. I turned it down, but if I was a new grad it might be something I would have considered to gain work experience.

    Bamelin on
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    "get a job at a soon to be successful startup" is a plan like "bet your paycheck on black" is a plan.
    I know right? People act like 90% of startups aren't failures or something and end up with people working without even getting paid oft times.
    You guys are missing the bigger picture. Whether or not the startup is successful is besides the point. The experience that you get working in a startup is where the value is. It gives you ammunition for your resume ... often in an area you wouldn't have a hope in hell of ever having gotten experience in at a corporate job. Experience that can be leveraged down the road to get you into a proper paying corporate job that demands "experience". Because start ups are typically small you end up wearing multiple hats ... which means multiple transferable skillsets that can be used on your resume. Your title and responsibilities are usually more senior than would be possible if applying corporate.

    If the startup fails it can still be something that helps you get ahead. Personally I'd much rather work at a start up that comes with a paycheque and gain important skills, rather than doing an unpaid internship.

    And there IS the possibility of the start up succeeding in a huge way allowing you to leverage the stock ownership they typically give out like candy in a startups early phase.

    The key to startups is to do your homework. How much is the company being funded? Who is the venture capitalist/venture company doing the funding? Is the company on the wire or something that can provide a steady paycheque and experience for the next couple of years?
    When a startup fails, that's not a glorious, resume-enhancing line on your resume; that's a question you have to figure out how to clarify in your job interview. "Why did you leave your last job?" "The company failed." "What did you do for them?" "Oh, I did tons of stuff, all of which I was amazing at." "Then why did the company fail?"

    That's not good resume fodder, that's an albatross around your neck. And don't forget that even if they do become hugely successful, they can just tell you to fuck the hell off, getting rich is for people who are already rich, not for you. God forbid you have some chef or something making his bones with a startup and retiring; that would just be the fucking end of the world.


    Sorry but I completely disagree. In today's economy you can get laid off for any reason at all ... be it a public job suffering from government budget cutbacks, a corporate company downsizing or a startup that shuts down. Companies don't care why you left your last job provided you weren't fired. What they care about is the skills you bring to the table.

    I say this as an Employment Counsellor. For the last six years I've worked as a Job Coach, Case Manager/Employment Counsellor and Group Facilitator. The "on the ground" skills you bring to the table are king in this economy, trumping even post secondary education.

    Working at a startup provides valuable skills you otherwise would not have along with a reference provided you are smart enough to linkin with your manager. The reasons to work at a startup are the same as those reasons people work in unpaid internships. The ability to acquire the marketable skills that "established" corporate companies lust after.

    You know how they say, "Those who can't do, teach?" You have no idea what makes a good employee. You have a made-up job where you apparently give really bad advice to people about how they should go get jobs that you, yourself, can't get. Your advice is AWFUL.
    .

    *shrug*. You don't have to agree with me, that's fine, obviously you are entitled to your opinion, although the personal attacks I find sad given you know nothing about me.

    Start ups can sometimes provide potential opportunities for Millenials to get paid employment in their field, relatively soon after graduating. I've seen it happening and for many people that's a better option than an unpaid internship.

    I don't really know how else to say, "Your advice is awful and the fact that you professionally dispense your bad advice terrifies me." It does come across personally, because it's very personal. I don't mean to impugn your likeability as a bloke with whom beers could be had. You should probably stop giving young people very bad advice about job seeking when your job is giving good advice, though.

    As an Employment Counsellor one of the things i do is to provide clients with options, along with getting clients to look at the pros and cons that they see of each option. In the end as a constructivist counsellor it's up to each client I see to chart their own course.

    Unpaid internship? pro: gain new skills with a recognized firm and possible paid employment down the road. Con: unpaid free labour with no guarantee of employment

    Work at a Startup? Pro: gain new skills, easier to land after graduating, get paid employment right away. Con: company may fold, possibility of long hours, company not known/recognized, lack of benefits, etc,

    Life is about choices and recognizing that different choices leads down different paths. I personally think the pro's of looking at a start up outweighs the negatives but that's just me. Others in this thread have given serious reasons why they feel opposite.

    If you'd like to debate, let's debate, not resort to YOU ARE WRONG AND ADVICE STUPID responses.

    Well, the way you phrased it just now is definitely much more reasonable an examination of the potential options available to someone. What you were saying earlier seemed to suggest that you were advocating working at a start-up as the absolute best way to have a career. I vehemently disagree with that. I've done quite a bit of work at smaller companies, and I'd say most people aren't suited to it. Most people are much more comfortable in a job where the path to success is more understandable and available to them, without all the inherent risk and likely high costs associated with breaking your back at a start-up.
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Bamelin wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    "get a job at a soon to be successful startup" is a plan like "bet your paycheck on black" is a plan.
    I know right? People act like 90% of startups aren't failures or something and end up with people working without even getting paid oft times.
    You guys are missing the bigger picture. Whether or not the startup is successful is besides the point. The experience that you get working in a startup is where the value is. It gives you ammunition for your resume ... often in an area you wouldn't have a hope in hell of ever having gotten experience in at a corporate job. Experience that can be leveraged down the road to get you into a proper paying corporate job that demands "experience". Because start ups are typically small you end up wearing multiple hats ... which means multiple transferable skillsets that can be used on your resume. Your title and responsibilities are usually more senior than would be possible if applying corporate.

    If the startup fails it can still be something that helps you get ahead. Personally I'd much rather work at a start up that comes with a paycheque and gain important skills, rather than doing an unpaid internship.

    And there IS the possibility of the start up succeeding in a huge way allowing you to leverage the stock ownership they typically give out like candy in a startups early phase.

    The key to startups is to do your homework. How much is the company being funded? Who is the venture capitalist/venture company doing the funding? Is the company on the wire or something that can provide a steady paycheque and experience for the next couple of years?
    When a startup fails, that's not a glorious, resume-enhancing line on your resume; that's a question you have to figure out how to clarify in your job interview. "Why did you leave your last job?" "The company failed." "What did you do for them?" "Oh, I did tons of stuff, all of which I was amazing at." "Then why did the company fail?"

    That's not good resume fodder, that's an albatross around your neck. And don't forget that even if they do become hugely successful, they can just tell you to fuck the hell off, getting rich is for people who are already rich, not for you. God forbid you have some chef or something making his bones with a startup and retiring; that would just be the fucking end of the world.


    Sorry but I completely disagree. In today's economy you can get laid off for any reason at all ... be it a public job suffering from government budget cutbacks, a corporate company downsizing or a startup that shuts down. Companies don't care why you left your last job provided you weren't fired. What they care about is the skills you bring to the table.

    I say this as an Employment Counsellor. For the last six years I've worked as a Job Coach, Case Manager/Employment Counsellor and Group Facilitator. The "on the ground" skills you bring to the table are king in this economy, trumping even post secondary education.

    Working at a startup provides valuable skills you otherwise would not have along with a reference provided you are smart enough to linkin with your manager. The reasons to work at a startup are the same as those reasons people work in unpaid internships. The ability to acquire the marketable skills that "established" corporate companies lust after.

    You know how they say, "Those who can't do, teach?" You have no idea what makes a good employee. You have a made-up job where you apparently give really bad advice to people about how they should go get jobs that you, yourself, can't get. Your advice is AWFUL.
    .

    *shrug*. You don't have to agree with me, that's fine, obviously you are entitled to your opinion, although the personal attacks I find sad given you know nothing about me.

    Start ups can sometimes provide potential opportunities for Millenials to get paid employment in their field, relatively soon after graduating. I've seen it happening and for many people that's a better option than an unpaid internship.

    I don't really know how else to say, "Your advice is awful and the fact that you professionally dispense your bad advice terrifies me." It does come across personally, because it's very personal. I don't mean to impugn your likeability as a bloke with whom beers could be had. You should probably stop giving young people very bad advice about job seeking when your job is giving good advice, though.

    As an Employment Counsellor one of the things i do is to provide clients with options, along with getting clients to look at the pros and cons that they see of each option. In the end as a constructivist counsellor it's up to each client I see to chart their own course.

    Unpaid internship? pro: gain new skills with a recognized firm and possible paid employment down the road. Con: unpaid free labour with no guarantee of employment

    Work at a Startup? Pro: gain new skills, easier to land after graduating, get paid employment right away. Con: company may fold, possibility of long hours, company not known/recognized, lack of benefits, etc,

    Life is about choices and recognizing that different choices leads down different paths. I personally think the pro's of looking at a start up outweighs the negatives but that's just me. Others in this thread have given serious reasons why they feel opposite.

    If you'd like to debate, let's debate, not resort to YOU ARE WRONG AND ADVICE STUPID responses.

    Well, the way you phrased it just now is definitely much more reasonable an examination of the potential options available to someone. What you were saying earlier seemed to suggest that you were advocating working at a start-up as the absolute best way to have a career. I vehemently disagree with that. I've done quite a bit of work at smaller companies, and I'd say most people aren't suited to it. Most people are much more comfortable in a job where the path to success is more understandable and available to them, without all the inherent risk and likely high costs associated with breaking your back at a start-up.

    That's a fair assessment. I suppose my earlier comments did focus on the positives without addressing the negatives. "gravy train" may have been a little optimistic :).

    You are correct that a start up may not be the best way to start a career. What I'm trying to point out is that in this economy, and with so few opportunities available to new grads, working at a start up is one option to consider .... Typically start ups will take new grads in part because they don't have the money to pay somebody with more experience.

    I had an interview a few weeks ago at a start up ... They were hiring for a pr position .... Thing is they said straight up they were only looking to pay in the low 30s for a position that would normally pay in the 40s (or more) at a corporate company. I turned it down, but if I was a new grad it might be something I would have considered to gain work experience.

    Gravy train was definitely one of the phrases I latched onto. :P

    I think your advice that I'm reading now boils down to, "Go somewhere where you can get experience, period. Don't be too picky and consider all options." That's good advice.

    Brave Frontier for Android and iOS. Final Fantasy-ish graphics/basic gameplay with a Puzzles & Dragons/Rage of Bahamut collection model.
    My referral code is: 81123930, which gets you a thing to level your guys.
  • L Ron HowardL Ron Howard Registered User regular
    Thanatos wrote: »
    One other thing that I guess I've noticed, comparing myself and my father, is that he is a company man, and has been for 25+ years. I don't know if anyone around my age that has stuck with a place for more than five, to be honest. As someone said, we're a generation of mercenaries or whores. We go where the money and needs are. We get poached and passed around, and have no real loyalty to anyone but ourselves. I wonder how this came to be.
    Because we spent our time after college working in "temporary" jobs with no benefits, only to be fired when we requested better pay or got sick. So now, since we know our employers only keep us around because they think it would cost them more to get rid of us, we have no reason to show any loyalty at all to them. And since the guy who asks for the raise is likely to be the first one laid off, you're way better off going to work someplace else that just starts by paying you more.

    What I'm saying is that it's not the employees who have gotten more mercenary; it's the employers. And there's no reason for anyone to show loyalty to anyone who isn't going to show loyalty to them.

    I guess I didn't even think of that.
    But what about those of us who were employed, and still are, before the crash? I guess it's been almost five years since that happened. I wonder if my friends will still be able to stick around.

    steam_sig.png
    NNID - bejamus | ESO - (at)guinneapig
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    The elephant in the room that everyone is fervently looking away from is that the bottom rung of the employment ladder is gone now. There are no jobs that don't require experience. In my industry especially, the oil industry, the problem is laughably obvious. The first day I started my job a geophysicist told me that in the next 5-10 years something like 60-70% of all the people in his profession were due to retire. They're in a system where there's a shrinking pool of workers to draw from and the industry is scraping along by headhunting specialists away from each other at ever greater prices because no one is willing to train new ones or even hire ones with less than a few decades of experience. The industry is heading towards a very obvious skills shortage in the next few years which they refuse to address because *gasp* that would involve training and hiring people younger than 40.

    My dad is facing this right now. What he does is nothing incredibly special, I would think; just applied logic. Yet he is soon to retire and most of his colleagues either have or are also about to retire. He is not training anyone, and neither has any of his colleagues. Considering what he does, I imagine his company all-but collapsing when he does, as he's busy putting out fires as it is due to the no replacements thing.

    And doesn't a large chunk of the population learn from others teaching them how to do things? I mean, that's why we have teachers, right?

    One other thing that I guess I've noticed, comparing myself and my father, is that he is a company man, and has been for 25+ years. I don't know if anyone around my age that has stuck with a place for more than five, to be honest. As someone said, we're a generation of mercenaries or whores. We go where the money and needs are. We get poached and passed around, and have no real loyalty to anyone but ourselves. I wonder how this came to be.

    I used to work as a physicist and we were in a position where only 2 people in the US still made the targets we needed since they hadn't trained anyone and back in the 80s review boards had decided we wouldn't need this skillset any more and had not replaced any retirees. So, literally there are these 2 70 year olds making every target used (and it turned out that making targets this way was a really useful technique) and they had realized there was no incentive for them to work too much. So they would make one or two interesting targets a week from their list of jobs and then just go home.

    Modern industry and academia has been destroying itself with short sightedness for a long time now!

    Your puny weapons are useless against me
  • L Ron HowardL Ron Howard Registered User regular
    If there's anything I've learned from the last decade, it's that everyone and everything's extremely shortsighted.

    steam_sig.png
    NNID - bejamus | ESO - (at)guinneapig
  • BamelinBamelin Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Euphoriac wrote: »
    That skills shortage Casual mentioned almost makes me nihilistically excited for what the future may hold, not to mention pure fascination.

    I wonder if we're going to see a MASSIVE turn-around in hiring to the point where people will finally once again be approached in colleges and universities by these companies desperate to fill the vacant void left by those currently 45 to 60.

    But, knowing the way the world has been going lately, we'd just be beaten by the developing world...


    I agree to some extent that things will turn around ... The question though is when exactly and if at that point it will be "too late" to help our generations (Late X and early Millenials in particular).

    The first wave of boomers born in 46 just hit 65 last year. We have 20 more years to go until the last of them hit 65. In the meantime many boomers are choosing not to retire (they can't afford to) which is holding things up even longer.

    I assume it will be at least another 10 years before boomers exiting the workforce really starts to make an impact in terms of opening up opportunities for the rest of us ... At which point I'll be in my mid 40s ... That's a long time with many years of lost opportunities (which I'm assuming is where the lost generation phrase comes from).

    Combine that with outsourcing, new technologies cutting own the number of workers needed in certain industries .... It's scary really.

    I've long held that it's late Millenials and the gen after that will really benefit in terms of job opportunities once the boomers are gone.


    Bamelin on
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    Hmmm, Mercanary or Whore. I think I'd like the title Mercenary.

    steam_sig.png
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    The key is just to repeal Medicare. This solves everyone's problems: after four or five years of no Medicare, there will hardly be any Boomers left, it would pretty much instantaneously balance the budget, and the Republicans get to win on the "get government out of Healthcare" angle. Win-win-win.

    Thanatos on
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    I refuse to get sidelined by boomer bullshit for the next twenty years.

    It's all about voter share, ladies and gentlemen, and if properly motivated we've got the most.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Thanatos wrote: »
    The key is just to repeal Medicare. This solves everyone's problems: after four or five years of no Medicare, there will hardly be any Boomers left, it would pretty much instantaneously balance the budget, and the Republicans get to win on the "get government out of Healthcare" angle. Win-win-win.

    You could definately change the law so that if you are still at work at a company which offers health insurance, you don't get medicare. That would save plenty of money and give a nice 'free' incentive for boomers to retire.

    Your puny weapons are useless against me
  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    Barring some catastrophic event, the Millenials' path is pretty clear: shoulder the burden the Boomers have placed on society by weathering the shitstorm as best we can. We need to be together on this, but the future is not ours.



  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    Thanatos wrote: »
    One other thing that I guess I've noticed, comparing myself and my father, is that he is a company man, and has been for 25+ years. I don't know if anyone around my age that has stuck with a place for more than five, to be honest. As someone said, we're a generation of mercenaries or whores. We go where the money and needs are. We get poached and passed around, and have no real loyalty to anyone but ourselves. I wonder how this came to be.
    Because we spent our time after college working in "temporary" jobs with no benefits, only to be fired when we requested better pay or got sick. So now, since we know our employers only keep us around because they think it would cost them more to get rid of us, we have no reason to show any loyalty at all to them. And since the guy who asks for the raise is likely to be the first one laid off, you're way better off going to work someplace else that just starts by paying you more.

    What I'm saying is that it's not the employees who have gotten more mercenary; it's the employers. And there's no reason for anyone to show loyalty to anyone who isn't going to show loyalty to them.

    The way I've had it explained to me was that Companies stopped showing loyalty to their employees. The vulture capital firms and outsourcing and union busting, led to people getting layed off in the 90's and 2000's and 2008 to keep shareholder dividends high. Most Gen X'ers saw their parents work most of their lives at one company, only to be laid off as soon as things got tough for the company. Very few of us saw our parents kept on the payroll even when things were tight at Corp HQ. That instilled in us a work ethic that is more of a work to live where we work/earn enough to survive comfortably, as opposed to the live to work of some of our parents, where they poured their entire productive lives to the detriment of their personal lives into their paymasters.

    steam_sig.png
    MWO: Adamski
    Brave Frontier: Adamski (481 077 56)
    Puzzles & Dragons: Adamski@pa (313 842 296)
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    Barring some catastrophic event, the Millenials' path is pretty clear: shoulder the burden the Boomers have placed on society by weathering the shitstorm as best we can. We need to be together on this, but the future is not ours.
    We need to start some serious lobbying on our own behalf; we need to get the Democrats to not merely just be the party that isn't trying to fuck us as badly, and turn them into our bitch, the way that the Republicans are old peoples' bitch.

    I refuse to just stand by, bend over, and ask the Boomers to please not use the spiked condom this time.

    Thanatos on
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    Barring some catastrophic event, the Millenials' path is pretty clear: shoulder the burden the Boomers have placed on society by weathering the shitstorm as best we can. We need to be together on this, but the future is not ours.

    Fuck that. We stand together sure, we shoulder the burden, sure. But we take what we want at the same time, while keeping in mind our children when they show up.

    Basically, we'll be doing what our grandparents had to do (assuming your grandparents were from the WWII generation).

    We vote enough people in, starting in the next 5 to 10 years, we start actually showing up to vote and filling out the rolls the way our numbers say we should, and this country will be a lot better off.

    It isn't good enough to just bite the bullet and sigh on the things that could have been. That's how the boomers win.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    Barring some catastrophic event, the Millenials' path is pretty clear: shoulder the burden the Boomers have placed on society by weathering the shitstorm as best we can. We need to be together on this, but the future is not ours.
    Fuck that. We stand together sure, we shoulder the burden, sure. But we take what we want at the same time, while keeping in mind our children when they show up.

    Basically, we'll be doing what our grandparents had to do (assuming your grandparents were from the WWII generation).

    We vote enough people in, starting in the next 5 to 10 years, we start actually showing up to vote and filling out the rolls the way our numbers say we should, and this country will be a lot better off.

    It isn't good enough to just bite the bullet and sigh on the things that could have been. That's how the boomers win.
    Seriously. Half of Seattle is between 18 and 44, and yet not one city council member is under 50. This is how we end up with bullshit like the tunnel viaduct replacement.

    The problem is nobody under 50 can get elected in our system, because they can't get bankrolled, and they don't have the connections that they need to get the endorsements and free media coverage that they need to even be heard of. Our system is so fucking broken at this point, and it pretty much all lands at the feet of the Baby Boomers and their elders.

    We need to, as a group, agree to stop voting for people over 50, and start voting, period.

    Thanatos on
  • CasualCasual flap flap flap wiggle wiggle wiggle Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    The elephant in the room that everyone is fervently looking away from is that the bottom rung of the employment ladder is gone now. There are no jobs that don't require experience. In my industry especially, the oil industry, the problem is laughably obvious. The first day I started my job a geophysicist told me that in the next 5-10 years something like 60-70% of all the people in his profession were due to retire. They're in a system where there's a shrinking pool of workers to draw from and the industry is scraping along by headhunting specialists away from each other at ever greater prices because no one is willing to train new ones or even hire ones with less than a few decades of experience. The industry is heading towards a very obvious skills shortage in the next few years which they refuse to address because *gasp* that would involve training and hiring people younger than 40.

    My dad is facing this right now. What he does is nothing incredibly special, I would think; just applied logic. Yet he is soon to retire and most of his colleagues either have or are also about to retire. He is not training anyone, and neither has any of his colleagues. Considering what he does, I imagine his company all-but collapsing when he does, as he's busy putting out fires as it is due to the no replacements thing.

    And doesn't a large chunk of the population learn from others teaching them how to do things? I mean, that's why we have teachers, right?

    One other thing that I guess I've noticed, comparing myself and my father, is that he is a company man, and has been for 25+ years. I don't know if anyone around my age that has stuck with a place for more than five, to be honest. As someone said, we're a generation of mercenaries or whores. We go where the money and needs are. We get poached and passed around, and have no real loyalty to anyone but ourselves. I wonder how this came to be.

    To put it in simple terms, right now we're going through a huge skills shortage AND massive youth unemployment. At the same time. Simultaneously. In unison.


    To quote Will Ferrell, "DOES NO ONE ELSE SEE THIS? I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS HERE!"


    There's an obvious solution, but it means employing people who aren't boomers and paying them wages that aren't peanuts. And that's something they're just not willing to do.

    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
  • chrisnlchrisnl Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    One other thing that I guess I've noticed, comparing myself and my father, is that he is a company man, and has been for 25+ years. I don't know if anyone around my age that has stuck with a place for more than five, to be honest. As someone said, we're a generation of mercenaries or whores. We go where the money and needs are. We get poached and passed around, and have no real loyalty to anyone but ourselves. I wonder how this came to be.

    To put it in simple terms, right now we're going through a huge skills shortage AND massive youth unemployment. At the same time. Simultaneously. In unison.


    To quote Will Ferrell, "DOES NO ONE ELSE SEE THIS? I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS HERE!"


    There's an obvious solution, but it means employing people who aren't boomers and paying them wages that aren't peanuts. And that's something they're just not willing to do.

    This does seem like the sort of problem that would solve itself, if the job market was even remotely rational. How often do you see a job posting that doesn't require prior experience these days?

    steam_sig.png
    FFXIV - Ruby Heliconia
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    Barring some catastrophic event, the Millenials' path is pretty clear: shoulder the burden the Boomers have placed on society by weathering the shitstorm as best we can. We need to be together on this, but the future is not ours.
    We need to start some serious lobbying on our own behalf; we need to get the Democrats to not merely just be the party that isn't trying to fuck us as badly, and turn them into our bitch, the way that the Republicans are old peoples' bitch.

    I refuse to just stand by, bend over, and ask the Boomers to please not use the spiked condom this time.

    It would also be good if we could perhaps persuade them to do what is best for the long term, not just for us. Doing what is best for the long term is good for us too, and means we can be like the greatest generation rather than the boomers. "Here children, here is all the cool stuff we set up that helps you that you can take for granted and ruin"

    Your puny weapons are useless against me
  • BamelinBamelin Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Casual wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    The elephant in the room that everyone is fervently looking away from is that the bottom rung of the employment ladder is gone now. There are no jobs that don't require experience. In my industry especially, the oil industry, the problem is laughably obvious. The first day I started my job a geophysicist told me that in the next 5-10 years something like 60-70% of all the people in his profession were due to retire. They're in a system where there's a shrinking pool of workers to draw from and the industry is scraping along by headhunting specialists away from each other at ever greater prices because no one is willing to train new ones or even hire ones with less than a few decades of experience. The industry is heading towards a very obvious skills shortage in the next few years which they refuse to address because *gasp* that would involve training and hiring people younger than 40.

    My dad is facing this right now. What he does is nothing incredibly special, I would think; just applied logic. Yet he is soon to retire and most of his colleagues either have or are also about to retire. He is not training anyone, and neither has any of his colleagues. Considering what he does, I imagine his company all-but collapsing when he does, as he's busy putting out fires as it is due to the no replacements thing.

    And doesn't a large chunk of the population learn from others teaching them how to do things? I mean, that's why we have teachers, right?

    One other thing that I guess I've noticed, comparing myself and my father, is that he is a company man, and has been for 25+ years. I don't know if anyone around my age that has stuck with a place for more than five, to be honest. As someone said, we're a generation of mercenaries or whores. We go where the money and needs are. We get poached and passed around, and have no real loyalty to anyone but ourselves. I wonder how this came to be.

    To put it in simple terms, right now we're going through a huge skills shortage AND massive youth unemployment. At the same time. Simultaneously. In unison.


    To quote Will Ferrell, "DOES NO ONE ELSE SEE THIS? I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS HERE!"


    There's an obvious solution, but it means employing people who aren't boomers and paying them wages that aren't peanuts. And that's something they're just not willing to do.

    Boomers have proven they are going to take care of their own (gen). In Canada our federal budget was just announced. They are raising the age you can get old age security (500 a month) to 67 from 65. They aren't implementing this though to anyone over 54. A very clear message that boomers will be taken care of and fuck everyone else.

    It's beyond frustrating ... So selfish especially when many boomers don't even need OAS, caking it off capital gains on their investments.

    The skills shortage is only going to get worse. In the old days you started at a company and that company would train from within over the course of your career. Now it's cheaper to outsource entry level positions overseas ... Boomers have always been about what is most profitable for them ..l and down the road? Thy don't care they'll be dead and it's going to be our problem. I think that Xers and Millenials recognize what's happening so I really do hope we get active politically. Over the next 15 years our numbers will start to be heard ...

    Bamelin on
  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    Barring some catastrophic event, the Millenials' path is pretty clear: shoulder the burden the Boomers have placed on society by weathering the shitstorm as best we can. We need to be together on this, but the future is not ours.

    Fuck that. We stand together sure, we shoulder the burden, sure. But we take what we want at the same time, while keeping in mind our children when they show up.

    Basically, we'll be doing what our grandparents had to do (assuming your grandparents were from the WWII generation).

    We vote enough people in, starting in the next 5 to 10 years, we start actually showing up to vote and filling out the rolls the way our numbers say we should, and this country will be a lot better off.

    It isn't good enough to just bite the bullet and sigh on the things that could have been. That's how the boomers win.

    You're right, the country will be better off, but these things take time and, speaking financially, Millennials are out of time--we already will make less than the last and next generation. That country that will be better off? Yes, we need to make that happen, but we won't be the prime benefactors of those changes, the youth will. And I'm okay with this. The future will be theirs, but it's up to us to make it happen.

    I don't think we necessarily disagree.

145791017
Sign In or Register to comment.