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[HBO] Game of Thrones S2 on Sunday; spoilers abound, no tags; NO BOOKS

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Posts

  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    815165 wrote: »
    Joffrey seems clearly bad to me. Deep down he has to know he has no real right to the throne.

    He was raised to believe that the right thing for the King to do is whatever the hell he wants.

    He is a violent psychopath who had a fucked-up childhood and has terrible parents. I hope he dies screaming, AND I hope he gets an Emmy.

    But you're right, he's pretty much a lost cause. Possibly The Mountain too, but I've felt that way since he cut the head off his horse.

  • AtomikaAtomika genius of the restoration Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Taramoor wrote: »
    The fact that there isn't one clearly good or clearly bad character is not a bad thing.

    I don't need anything that simplistic, I just need a character who is motivated by something other than greed, entitlement, or reactionary retaliation. Everyone on the show actually has a great deal of motivation, and it all makes sense; it's just that everyone, even the really "good" characters like Jon and Robb, are motivated by selfish interests, even if they're interests we're on-board with.

    It's a show with a billion characters on it, and almost all of them with an agenda. I just need one decent character with even modestly-altruistic agency to get behind. It's like the Eunuch told Ned Stark, "I'm for The Realm. Someone has to be."


    Otherwise, I'm just going to keep rooting for Tyrion. And the dragons.

    Atomika on
  • johnwingjohnwing Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    The fact that there isn't one clearly good or clearly bad character is not a bad thing.

    I don't need anything that simplistic, I just need a character who is motivated by something other than greed, entitlement, or reactionary retaliation. Everyone on the show actually has a great deal of motivation, and it all makes sense; it's just that everyone, even the really "good" characters like Jon and Robb, are motivated by selfish interests, even if they're interests we're on-board with.

    It's a show with a billion characters on it, and almost all of them with an agenda. I just need one decent character with even modestly-altruistic agency to get behind. It's like the Eunuch told Ned Stark, "I'm for The Realm. Someone has to be."


    Otherwise, I'm just going to keep rooting for Tyrion. And the dragons.

    Would a person with a modestly altruistic agency survive in westeros? Because it seems to me that anybody that is modestly altruistic will leave him/herself open for attacks. And seeing how the characters have behaved in the past, I believe they would. Even Tyrion consolidated his power in King's landing whenever he could. If he didn't his sister would take him out any chance she gets.

  • AtomikaAtomika genius of the restoration Registered User regular
    815165 wrote: »
    Joffrey seems clearly bad to me. Deep down he has to know he has no real right to the throne.

    I think I'm a little surprised by the level of machinations the Queen (and the other Lannisters) went to to get Joffrey on the throne. It was Joffrey's throne to lose anyway, and the Queen still commanded a lot of power as Robert's wife. Plus, she had to know that Joffrey is a fucking psycho; she stood up for him when he had his little power trip in Winterfell.

    Her handwringing over his crazyness is laughable. "I practically doomed the whole world to war and despair to ensure my bloodthirsty lunatic child became king! I am now shocked at how bad an idea that was!"

  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    815165 wrote: »
    Joffrey seems clearly bad to me. Deep down he has to know he has no real right to the throne.

    He was raised to believe that the right thing for the King to do is whatever the hell he wants.

    He is a violent psychopath who had a fucked-up childhood and has terrible parents. I hope he dies screaming, AND I hope he gets an Emmy.

    But you're right, he's pretty much a lost cause. Possibly The Mountain too, but I've felt that way since he cut the head off his horse.

    Maybe they can melt down the Emmy and pour it on his face

    History is an account, mostly false, of events, mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers, mostly knaves, and soldiers, mostly fools.
  • AtomikaAtomika genius of the restoration Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    815165 wrote: »
    Joffrey seems clearly bad to me. Deep down he has to know he has no real right to the throne.

    He was raised to believe that the right thing for the King to do is whatever the hell he wants.

    He is a violent psychopath who had a fucked-up childhood and has terrible parents. I hope he dies screaming, AND I hope he gets an Emmy.

    But you're right, he's pretty much a lost cause. Possibly The Mountain too, but I've felt that way since he cut the head off his horse.

    Maybe they can melt down the Emmy and pour it on his face

    That was pretty awesome, I'll admit.

  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    815165 wrote: »
    Joffrey seems clearly bad to me. Deep down he has to know he has no real right to the throne.

    I think I'm a little surprised by the level of machinations the Queen (and the other Lannisters) went to to get Joffrey on the throne. It was Joffrey's throne to lose anyway, and the Queen still commanded a lot of power as Robert's wife. Plus, she had to know that Joffrey is a fucking psycho; she stood up for him when he had his little power trip in Winterfell.

    Her handwringing over his crazyness is laughable. "I practically doomed the whole world to war and despair to ensure my bloodthirsty lunatic child became king! I am now shocked at how bad an idea that was!"

    It's sort of showing the flaw in her "you win or you die" logic. Season one she was all about securing the throne for the Lannisters. Now she has, and yet things are going to hell for her anyway.

    History is an account, mostly false, of events, mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers, mostly knaves, and soldiers, mostly fools.
  • johnwingjohnwing Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Queen Cersie loves her children no matter what, the same kind of love Catelyn Stark display for her children. And as Cersie have made clear she wish she was born a man, because she believes she is smarter than anybody else. She believes she would have been king if she was a man. Since she can't change into a man she chooses the next best thing. The mother and the regent of the king, her son. Maybe she thought Joffrey was crazy but still under her control. She didn't expected a whole new darker side of Joffrey came out when he became king.

    johnwing on
  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    The fact that there isn't one clearly good or clearly bad character is not a bad thing.

    I don't need anything that simplistic, I just need a character who is motivated by something other than greed, entitlement, or reactionary retaliation. Everyone on the show actually has a great deal of motivation, and it all makes sense; it's just that everyone, even the really "good" characters like Jon and Robb, are motivated by selfish interests, even if they're interests we're on-board with.

    It's a show with a billion characters on it, and almost all of them with an agenda. I just need one decent character with even modestly-altruistic agency to get behind. It's like the Eunuch told Ned Stark, "I'm for The Realm. Someone has to be."


    Otherwise, I'm just going to keep rooting for Tyrion. And the dragons.

    Brienne doesn't seem to have a selfish purpose. She's dedicated to serving her king, the only man who ever gave her a shot, and since she failed utterly in that her whole purpose seems to be getting justice for Renly's death.

    Davos doesn't seem to have a selfish purpose. He's loyal to the Lord that handed out a fair justice to him after catching him smuggling, a man he seems to think was a man of honor who has lost his way. Now he's in way over his head and can't seem to find a way out.

    Jorah Mormont doesn't seem to have a selfish purpose. He follows Dany because he believes she would be a good Queen, and he's had ample opportunity to improve his lot in life by ending her bid for the throne and he seems to have no intention of doing so.

    Bran, Hodor, Loras, Gendry, Arya, Jaqen H'Gar, even Tywin all seem to me to be operating with motivations that don't seem based on greed, entitlement, or retaliation. I don't agree with all of their motivations, but they still seem to be there. Hell, Theon, my least favorite character, is being the largest douche in the world to try and impress his dad, not out of greed or anything. His dad, though... that guy's a greedy entitled, retaliatory prick.

    Yes, the majority of people in Westeros are selfish pricks, but I fail to see how that's really different from the real world.

  • AtomikaAtomika genius of the restoration Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    The fact that there isn't one clearly good or clearly bad character is not a bad thing.

    I don't need anything that simplistic, I just need a character who is motivated by something other than greed, entitlement, or reactionary retaliation. Everyone on the show actually has a great deal of motivation, and it all makes sense; it's just that everyone, even the really "good" characters like Jon and Robb, are motivated by selfish interests, even if they're interests we're on-board with.

    It's a show with a billion characters on it, and almost all of them with an agenda. I just need one decent character with even modestly-altruistic agency to get behind. It's like the Eunuch told Ned Stark, "I'm for The Realm. Someone has to be."


    Otherwise, I'm just going to keep rooting for Tyrion. And the dragons.

    Brienne doesn't seem to have a selfish purpose. She's dedicated to serving her king, the only man who ever gave her a shot, and since she failed utterly in that her whole purpose seems to be getting justice for Renly's death.

    Davos doesn't seem to have a selfish purpose. He's loyal to the Lord that handed out a fair justice to him after catching him smuggling, a man he seems to think was a man of honor who has lost his way. Now he's in way over his head and can't seem to find a way out.

    Jorah Mormont doesn't seem to have a selfish purpose. He follows Dany because he believes she would be a good Queen, and he's had ample opportunity to improve his lot in life by ending her bid for the throne and he seems to have no intention of doing so.

    Bran, Hodor, Loras, Gendry, Arya, Jaqen H'Gar, even Tywin all seem to me to be operating with motivations that don't seem based on greed, entitlement, or retaliation. I don't agree with all of their motivations, but they still seem to be there. Hell, Theon, my least favorite character, is being the largest douche in the world to try and impress his dad, not out of greed or anything. His dad, though... that guy's a greedy entitled, retaliatory prick.

    Yes, the majority of people in Westeros are selfish pricks, but I fail to see how that's really different from the real world.

    I think you have to admit most of those characters are on the outermost periphery of the greater story being told, though. Brienne doesn't even appear until the second or third episode of the second season.


    I kind of like Tywin, though. He seems like a magnificent bastard, and his complacency in being rich and powerful instead of being the guy in charge of everything makes him oddly heroic in this topsy-turvy world.

  • AtomikaAtomika genius of the restoration Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    815165 wrote: »
    Joffrey seems clearly bad to me. Deep down he has to know he has no real right to the throne.

    I think I'm a little surprised by the level of machinations the Queen (and the other Lannisters) went to to get Joffrey on the throne. It was Joffrey's throne to lose anyway, and the Queen still commanded a lot of power as Robert's wife. Plus, she had to know that Joffrey is a fucking psycho; she stood up for him when he had his little power trip in Winterfell.

    Her handwringing over his crazyness is laughable. "I practically doomed the whole world to war and despair to ensure my bloodthirsty lunatic child became king! I am now shocked at how bad an idea that was!"

    It's sort of showing the flaw in her "you win or you die" logic. Season one she was all about securing the throne for the Lannisters. Now she has, and yet things are going to hell for her anyway.

    Yeah, it's kind of one of those self-defeating, self-fulfilling prophecies, where you bring about your destruction by trying to ensure your institution.

    But seriously, Cersie should have known that Joffrey was a freak. He didn't suddenly become a psychopath when he became king, he just no longer had anyone to prevent him from acting on those impulses. I mean, he had a child and a puppy murdered in Winterfell because they hurt his feelings, and she backed him up on that.

  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    The fact that there isn't one clearly good or clearly bad character is not a bad thing.

    I don't need anything that simplistic, I just need a character who is motivated by something other than greed, entitlement, or reactionary retaliation. Everyone on the show actually has a great deal of motivation, and it all makes sense; it's just that everyone, even the really "good" characters like Jon and Robb, are motivated by selfish interests, even if they're interests we're on-board with.

    It's a show with a billion characters on it, and almost all of them with an agenda. I just need one decent character with even modestly-altruistic agency to get behind. It's like the Eunuch told Ned Stark, "I'm for The Realm. Someone has to be."


    Otherwise, I'm just going to keep rooting for Tyrion. And the dragons.

    Brienne doesn't seem to have a selfish purpose. She's dedicated to serving her king, the only man who ever gave her a shot, and since she failed utterly in that her whole purpose seems to be getting justice for Renly's death.

    Davos doesn't seem to have a selfish purpose. He's loyal to the Lord that handed out a fair justice to him after catching him smuggling, a man he seems to think was a man of honor who has lost his way. Now he's in way over his head and can't seem to find a way out.

    Jorah Mormont doesn't seem to have a selfish purpose. He follows Dany because he believes she would be a good Queen, and he's had ample opportunity to improve his lot in life by ending her bid for the throne and he seems to have no intention of doing so.

    Bran, Hodor, Loras, Gendry, Arya, Jaqen H'Gar, even Tywin all seem to me to be operating with motivations that don't seem based on greed, entitlement, or retaliation. I don't agree with all of their motivations, but they still seem to be there. Hell, Theon, my least favorite character, is being the largest douche in the world to try and impress his dad, not out of greed or anything. His dad, though... that guy's a greedy entitled, retaliatory prick.

    Yes, the majority of people in Westeros are selfish pricks, but I fail to see how that's really different from the real world.

    I think you have to admit most of those characters are on the outermost periphery of the greater story being told, though. Brienne doesn't even appear until the second or third episode of the second season.


    I kind of like Tywin, though. He seems like a magnificent bastard, and his complacency in being rich and powerful instead of being the guy in charge of everything makes him oddly heroic in this topsy-turvy world.

    I'm fairly certain that every character is on the periphery of the greater story being told. If you'd told me after the first few episodes of season 1 that we'd practically forget about Jon Snow by episode 3 of season 2 I would've called you a mad man. No character has appeared in every episode. Hell, no STORYLINE has appeared in every episode.

    I like Tywin because he's pragmatic. He's not blinded by his own greatness, which paradoxically makes him MORE awesome.

  • johnwingjohnwing Registered User regular

    Taramoor wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    The fact that there isn't one clearly good or clearly bad character is not a bad thing.

    I don't need anything that simplistic, I just need a character who is motivated by something other than greed, entitlement, or reactionary retaliation. Everyone on the show actually has a great deal of motivation, and it all makes sense; it's just that everyone, even the really "good" characters like Jon and Robb, are motivated by selfish interests, even if they're interests we're on-board with.

    It's a show with a billion characters on it, and almost all of them with an agenda. I just need one decent character with even modestly-altruistic agency to get behind. It's like the Eunuch told Ned Stark, "I'm for The Realm. Someone has to be."


    Otherwise, I'm just going to keep rooting for Tyrion. And the dragons.

    Brienne doesn't seem to have a selfish purpose. She's dedicated to serving her king, the only man who ever gave her a shot, and since she failed utterly in that her whole purpose seems to be getting justice for Renly's death.

    Davos doesn't seem to have a selfish purpose. He's loyal to the Lord that handed out a fair justice to him after catching him smuggling, a man he seems to think was a man of honor who has lost his way. Now he's in way over his head and can't seem to find a way out.

    Jorah Mormont doesn't seem to have a selfish purpose. He follows Dany because he believes she would be a good Queen, and he's had ample opportunity to improve his lot in life by ending her bid for the throne and he seems to have no intention of doing so.

    Bran, Hodor, Loras, Gendry, Arya, Jaqen H'Gar, even Tywin all seem to me to be operating with motivations that don't seem based on greed, entitlement, or retaliation. I don't agree with all of their motivations, but they still seem to be there. Hell, Theon, my least favorite character, is being the largest douche in the world to try and impress his dad, not out of greed or anything. His dad, though... that guy's a greedy entitled, retaliatory prick.

    Yes, the majority of people in Westeros are selfish pricks, but I fail to see how that's really different from the real world.

    I think you have to admit most of those characters are on the outermost periphery of the greater story being told, though. Brienne doesn't even appear until the second or third episode of the second season.


    I kind of like Tywin, though. He seems like a magnificent bastard, and his complacency in being rich and powerful instead of being the guy in charge of everything makes him oddly heroic in this topsy-turvy world.

    I'm fairly certain that every character is on the periphery of the greater story being told. If you'd told me after the first few episodes of season 1 that we'd practically forget about Jon Snow by episode 3 of season 2 I would've called you a mad man. No character has appeared in every episode. Hell, no STORYLINE has appeared in every episode.

    I like Tywin because he's pragmatic. He's not blinded by his own greatness, which paradoxically makes him MORE awesome.

    It also helps he is played by a great actor.

  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    johnwing wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    The fact that there isn't one clearly good or clearly bad character is not a bad thing.

    I don't need anything that simplistic, I just need a character who is motivated by something other than greed, entitlement, or reactionary retaliation. Everyone on the show actually has a great deal of motivation, and it all makes sense; it's just that everyone, even the really "good" characters like Jon and Robb, are motivated by selfish interests, even if they're interests we're on-board with.

    It's a show with a billion characters on it, and almost all of them with an agenda. I just need one decent character with even modestly-altruistic agency to get behind. It's like the Eunuch told Ned Stark, "I'm for The Realm. Someone has to be."


    Otherwise, I'm just going to keep rooting for Tyrion. And the dragons.

    Brienne doesn't seem to have a selfish purpose. She's dedicated to serving her king, the only man who ever gave her a shot, and since she failed utterly in that her whole purpose seems to be getting justice for Renly's death.

    Davos doesn't seem to have a selfish purpose. He's loyal to the Lord that handed out a fair justice to him after catching him smuggling, a man he seems to think was a man of honor who has lost his way. Now he's in way over his head and can't seem to find a way out.

    Jorah Mormont doesn't seem to have a selfish purpose. He follows Dany because he believes she would be a good Queen, and he's had ample opportunity to improve his lot in life by ending her bid for the throne and he seems to have no intention of doing so.

    Bran, Hodor, Loras, Gendry, Arya, Jaqen H'Gar, even Tywin all seem to me to be operating with motivations that don't seem based on greed, entitlement, or retaliation. I don't agree with all of their motivations, but they still seem to be there. Hell, Theon, my least favorite character, is being the largest douche in the world to try and impress his dad, not out of greed or anything. His dad, though... that guy's a greedy entitled, retaliatory prick.

    Yes, the majority of people in Westeros are selfish pricks, but I fail to see how that's really different from the real world.

    I think you have to admit most of those characters are on the outermost periphery of the greater story being told, though. Brienne doesn't even appear until the second or third episode of the second season.


    I kind of like Tywin, though. He seems like a magnificent bastard, and his complacency in being rich and powerful instead of being the guy in charge of everything makes him oddly heroic in this topsy-turvy world.

    I'm fairly certain that every character is on the periphery of the greater story being told. If you'd told me after the first few episodes of season 1 that we'd practically forget about Jon Snow by episode 3 of season 2 I would've called you a mad man. No character has appeared in every episode. Hell, no STORYLINE has appeared in every episode.

    I like Tywin because he's pragmatic. He's not blinded by his own greatness, which paradoxically makes him MORE awesome.

    It also helps he is played by a great actor.

    I suddenly feel the urge to post that video of him booty dancing in drag.

  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Last year I went to see a play in London, and as I was waiting at the actors' entrance for the star to come out (yes, I'm a total celebrity whore), an entirely unexpected Charles "Tywin" Dance came out of the door and rushed past me. My reaction was stunned petrification, while inside I went all fanboy. Of course, I mainly know and like the guy from Alien 3, which, if I'd been able to tell him, he might not have appreciated.

    The actor I was actually expecting and waiting for, in the meantime, never walked through that door. Dick.

    Thirith on
    Eagles on Pogo Sticks: Musings of a Goofy Beast
    http://goofybeast.wordpress.com
  • AtomikaAtomika genius of the restoration Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    I like Tywin because he's pragmatic. He's not blinded by his own greatness, which paradoxically makes him MORE awesome.

    Agreed. It's funny that people like Tywin and Tyrion are my favorite people on the show (and it doesn't hurt that Charles Dance and Peter Dinkledge are knocking it out of the park), but I think it has more to do with the fact they're basically the only rational characters on the show.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    The fact that there isn't one clearly good or clearly bad character is not a bad thing.

    I don't need anything that simplistic, I just need a character who is motivated by something other than greed, entitlement, or reactionary retaliation. Everyone on the show actually has a great deal of motivation, and it all makes sense; it's just that everyone, even the really "good" characters like Jon and Robb, are motivated by selfish interests, even if they're interests we're on-board with.

    It's a show with a billion characters on it, and almost all of them with an agenda. I just need one decent character with even modestly-altruistic agency to get behind. It's like the Eunuch told Ned Stark, "I'm for The Realm. Someone has to be."


    Otherwise, I'm just going to keep rooting for Tyrion. And the dragons.

    Do what I do, root for Varys. He's the Lester Freamon of this show, only without landing hot strippers as a sideline.

    Lose: to suffer defeat, to misplace (Ex: "I hope I don't lose the match." "Did you lose your phone again?")
    Loose: about to slip, to release (Ex: "That knot is loose." "Loose arrows.")
  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    I like Tywin because he's pragmatic. He's not blinded by his own greatness, which paradoxically makes him MORE awesome.

    Agreed. It's funny that people like Tywin and Tyrion are my favorite people on the show (and it doesn't hurt that Charles Dance and Peter Dinkledge are knocking it out of the park), but I think it has more to do with the fact they're basically the only rational characters on the show.



    Still one of my favorite moments from the show.

  • Katsuhiro 1139Katsuhiro 1139 Dublin, IrelandRegistered User regular
    I think Taramoor's character synopsis for Joffrey pretty much nailed it. +1!

  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    I'd enjoy some Shae/Sansa scenes, though should have a fun dynamic.

    But Sansa's actress is only 16!
    Spoiler:

    legal in Germany: The Alabama of Europe!

    Legal in Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, Connecticut, District of Columbia, Georgia, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio,Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Vermont, Washington, and West Virginia.

  • AtomikaAtomika genius of the restoration Registered User regular
    Do what I do, root for Varys. He's the Lester Freamon of this show, only without landing hot strippers as a sideline.

    I may have to. And honestly, as many naked people as there are hanging out in random corners, Varys probably wouldn't even want hot strippers, even if his junk did work.

  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    Thirith wrote: »
    Last year I went to see a play in London, and as I was waiting at the actors' entrance for the star to come out (yes, I'm a total celebrity whore), an entirely unexpected Charles "Tywin" Dance came out of the door and rushed past me. My reaction was stunned petrification, while inside I went all fanboy. Of course, I mainly know and like the guy from Alien 3, which, if I'd been able to tell him, he might not have appreciated.

    The actor I was actually expecting and waiting for, in the meantime, never walked through that door. Dick.

    Whenever I think of Charles Dance I always think of this

    History is an account, mostly false, of events, mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers, mostly knaves, and soldiers, mostly fools.
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    enc0re wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    I'd enjoy some Shae/Sansa scenes, though should have a fun dynamic.

    But Sansa's actress is only 16!
    Spoiler:

    legal in Germany: The Alabama of Europe!

    Legal in Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, Connecticut, District of Columbia, Georgia, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio,Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Vermont, Washington, and West Virginia.

    Okay guys

    A) You're not impressing anyone by showing off your deep knowledge of age of consent laws

    B) Y'all need to watch more Archer

    History is an account, mostly false, of events, mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers, mostly knaves, and soldiers, mostly fools.
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    I kind of like Tywin, though. He seems like a magnificent bastard, and his complacency in being rich and powerful instead of being the guy in charge of everything makes him oddly heroic in this topsy-turvy world.

    He kind of is in charge of everything. He's the patriarch of the royal family, now that Robert's dead. All of his children have high position at court - Cersei is Regent, Tyrion is (effectively) Executive Officer, Jaime is Lord-Commander of the Kingsguard since Barristan Selmy's dismissal. Tywin himself is Warden of the West and has direct dominion over roughly a quarter of the landmass of civilized Westeros, more than that if you ignore everything north of the Neck (which you should, since the North is kinda like Canada - huge and very scarcely populated.)

    He owns the gold the coins are minted from and the bank they're deposited in and one of two principle ports on the western coast of the continent, and at the moment he owns about half of the Riverlands too.

    All of that's sort of just gilding the lilly, though, since he can do whatever the fuck he feels like anyway. He was Hand of the King under Aerys for like 25 years, so he was effectively the second most powerful man in the kingdom for most of his adult life. Even after that, when Catelyn arrested Tyrion, Tywin's armies basically went W.T. Sherman on the Riverlands, and Robert told Ned to suck it up and ask Tywin to pretty please stop.

    sig.png
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    The fact that there isn't one clearly good or clearly bad character is not a bad thing.

    I don't need anything that simplistic, I just need a character who is motivated by something other than greed, entitlement, or reactionary retaliation. Everyone on the show actually has a great deal of motivation, and it all makes sense; it's just that everyone, even the really "good" characters like Jon and Robb, are motivated by selfish interests, even if they're interests we're on-board with.

    It's a show with a billion characters on it, and almost all of them with an agenda. I just need one decent character with even modestly-altruistic agency to get behind. It's like the Eunuch told Ned Stark, "I'm for The Realm. Someone has to be."


    Otherwise, I'm just going to keep rooting for Tyrion. And the dragons.

    They exist. The problem is, because you refuse to accept the medieval framing of the story, you are discounting "I want to be a good ruler" motivations as entitlement.

    Given the historical context the series is aping, "I am the rightful king and I want to rule justly" is not entitled and, in fact, is about the closest you'll get to some sort of altruism.

  • CarpyCarpy Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    The fact that there isn't one clearly good or clearly bad character is not a bad thing.

    I don't need anything that simplistic, I just need a character who is motivated by something other than greed, entitlement, or reactionary retaliation. Everyone on the show actually has a great deal of motivation, and it all makes sense; it's just that everyone, even the really "good" characters like Jon and Robb, are motivated by selfish interests, even if they're interests we're on-board with.

    It's a show with a billion characters on it, and almost all of them with an agenda. I just need one decent character with even modestly-altruistic agency to get behind. It's like the Eunuch told Ned Stark, "I'm for The Realm. Someone has to be."


    Otherwise, I'm just going to keep rooting for Tyrion. And the dragons.

    How is Jon motivated by selfish reasons? He knows there's no place for him at winterfel so he goes to the one place he thinks he can help the realm and be respected for it.

  • AstaerethAstaereth Registered User regular
    Well, let's see.

    Ned acted out of duty, friendship, and justice, none of which are selfish motives.
    Daenerys wants to rule the world, but she's also motivated by her need to care for her people, and in season one asked them to refrain from raping prisoners, which was against her self-interest.
    Everybody on the Night's Watch with agency is trying to protect the realm, and they all took an oath in season one that's basically the definition of selflessness.
    Bran, although he doesn't get much screen time, is also a virtuous character attempting to do the right things for the right reasons.
    And this season is showing us a new and more active side of Tyrion, as he tries to actually protect the children being victimized and the endangered citizens of King's Landing.

    There's plenty of people to like in the show, and something to like about even the slimiest of the slimy villains. I am currently rooting for Tyrion, Rob, Arya, Jon, Tywin, Catelyn, Littlefinger, Bran, Yara, and Daenerys, despite the incompatibilities there.

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  • RhalloTonnyRhalloTonny Of the BrownlandsRegistered User regular
    edited May 2012
    And while Tyrion may be reactionary in his motivations, especially this season, there is a giant war about to happen. If desperately trying to mitigate disaster is reactionary, I feel that would be an acceptable time to be so.

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  • AstaerethAstaereth Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Tyrion was mostly reactionary in season 1 because he spent it getting arrested for murder, running for his life, or being forced into battle. In this season he's not reacting to anything--he was given power, and he's spent his time either protecting, consolidating, and increasing it, or using it to prepare for the war. None of that is reactionary.

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  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Registered User regular
    Why is no one liking Jaime? He's a magnificent bastard if ever there was one. And so handsome!

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  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    Probably because we haven't seen him recently. :(

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  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    Why is no one liking Jaime? He's a magnificent bastard if ever there was one. And so handsome!

    He can't be that magnificent, he's covered in mud and sitting in a cage :)

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  • Form of Monkey!Form of Monkey! Registered User regular
    Favorite Jaime character development moment: When he punches his own man for spoiling his fight with Ned Stark.

  • AtomikaAtomika genius of the restoration Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    The fact that there isn't one clearly good or clearly bad character is not a bad thing.

    I don't need anything that simplistic, I just need a character who is motivated by something other than greed, entitlement, or reactionary retaliation. Everyone on the show actually has a great deal of motivation, and it all makes sense; it's just that everyone, even the really "good" characters like Jon and Robb, are motivated by selfish interests, even if they're interests we're on-board with.

    It's a show with a billion characters on it, and almost all of them with an agenda. I just need one decent character with even modestly-altruistic agency to get behind. It's like the Eunuch told Ned Stark, "I'm for The Realm. Someone has to be."


    Otherwise, I'm just going to keep rooting for Tyrion. And the dragons.

    They exist. The problem is, because you refuse to accept the medieval framing of the story, you are discounting "I want to be a good ruler" motivations as entitlement.

    Given the historical context the series is aping, "I am the rightful king and I want to rule justly" is not entitled and, in fact, is about the closest you'll get to some sort of altruism.

    First of all, I'm a little miffed at your casting of aspersion upon me, because you're a good guy and don't usually put words in peoples' mouths.

    I accept the setting of the story, but I take no shame in saying I don't readily accept a narrative world that doesn't contain characters who are motivated outside of selfish desires if such a tale strives to have me attach. Even as far back as Arthurian legends, the concept of equality, honor, and "might not equaling right" are established, so it pains me to trudge through a series in which the best and most honorable leaders of men can be called little more than honorbound, especially when such oaths are utter horseshit and in the service of lesser men.

    And even using your example, there are no characters in the story as of yet who yearn for the throne out of a desire to better lead Westeros, even Robb Stark.

  • AtomikaAtomika genius of the restoration Registered User regular
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    Why is no one liking Jaime? He's a magnificent bastard if ever there was one. And so handsome!

    Well, I don't like Jaime because he's a smug, incestuous barbarian who treats everyone like shit and has no problem leaving desolation in his wake just to achieve his own petty ends.

    Also, he tried to murder the same child twice.

  • jakobaggerjakobagger KøbenhavnRegistered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Arthurian tales are myths. Despite the supernatural elements, Game of Thrones is going for something pretty close to the European middle ages. The past is a foreign country, and holding people from there to the exact same standards we hold ourselves to doesn't make a lot of sense.

    The point is, think of it as history, instead of a fairy tale that has to conform to some model of the good narrative.

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  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    You don't have to like a character, you just have to understand them. It is perfectly acceptable to hate the people on this show and yet still enjoy watching it.

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  • AtomikaAtomika genius of the restoration Registered User regular
    Spoilered for length.
    Spoiler:

  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    And even using your example, there are no characters in the story as of yet who yearn for the throne out of a desire to better lead Westeros, even Robb Stark.

    History has proven, time and time again, that people who want power are very rarely the people who should be anywhere near power. Why should this be different in fiction?

    Robb Stark does not yearn for the throne; it could be argued that he yearns for a throne, but I doubt that.

    He wants his sisters back. That's his entire motivation. While trying to accomplish that (and getting his father back) the people directly under his authority decided to democratically elect him their full-fledged King. He, quite literally, can't say no: they'll kill him and then the North would be split, leading to another civil war.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    Why is no one liking Jaime? He's a magnificent bastard if ever there was one. And so handsome!

    Well, I don't like Jaime because he's a smug, incestuous barbarian who treats everyone like shit and has no problem leaving desolation in his wake just to achieve his own petty ends.

    Also, he tried to murder the same child twice.

    Do we know that Jaime was involved the second time?

This discussion has been closed.