I haven't kept up with SR rules, what is the current state of Physical Adepts and any mention of them in this game? I always thought they were underutilized and a cool counterbalance to Street Sams...most didn't play them because it was too hard or impossible to equal a street sam with the same amount of resources required...The path of an Adept should be hard but ultimately rewarding IMO.
I haven't kept up with SR rules, what is the current state of Physical Adepts and any mention of them in this game? I always thought they were underutilized and a cool counterbalance to Street Sams...most didn't play them because it was too hard or impossible to equal a street sam with the same amount of resources required...The path of an Adept should be hard but ultimately rewarding IMO.
They haven't mentioned anything about Phys Ads in this particular game.
My perception is the opposite of yours, as far as Adepts. Adepts were way overpowered, especially by the end of the 3rd edition development cycle (mostly due to Initiation rules). In first edition, they had auto-successes, which put them above and beyond most Samurai in power. In 2nd edition, they were underpowered until the release of the Grimoire, where initiation allowed them to reach power levels far beyond what Samurai could squeeze into their bodies Essence-wise (not to mention all of the benefits of initiation, like Masking and Centering). Samurai were typically better at guns and adepts were typically better at hand-to-hand in 2nd edition due to power costs and the huge benefit of a cybernetic smartlink. In 3rd edition, costs for bonus dice in guns were reduced and adepts gained abilities that mimicked or stacked with smartlinks/laser sights, but Samurai had more Essence-friendly options for 'ware, as well, so they evened out. In 4th edition, I'd say Adepts have a leg up on Sammies, with greatly reduced power costs in most categories. In hand-to-hand, Killing Hands scales way better now (you can pump hand-to-hand damage much higher than the bonus given by Titanium Bone Lacing). For gun combat, smartlinks now are only an extra pool of bonus dice, and adept powers stack with it pretty easily. Also, reflex enhancement is much cheaper for an Adept in 4th Edition, and the benefit for Cybernetic/Bioware Reflex Enhancement is reduced.
Really, a Adept with a balance of Magic and Cyber/Bioware was the most powerful route to go (best of both worlds, and Initiation compensates for any Essence-related magic loss), but that requires an intricate knowledge of the mechanics. Flavor-wise, quite a few elite militaries and corporations have adepts who are enhanced with bioware and cyberware, so it fits within the world-view.
It's atypical of the designers general mood for the game. Yes, they inject humor, but by the canon universe, that kinda stuff doesn't happen. Yes, a lot of people play it that way, but that's not how this game is going to be presented (and if it is, I want my money back). That's all I'm saying.
Silly discussion. ; )
Michael Stackpole's Wolf and Raven/Into the Shadows (It's All Done With Mirrors): Kid Stealth has digitigrade legs (Raptor legs, complete with claws). How the FUCK does he get around without anyone noticing (I guess that's why he's called Kid Stealth, hur hur)? He got those legs because he was given some concrete shoes, and he just happened to have C4 on his person, so he blew up his feet. Yeah. Not to mention the misadventures of the two sammies that Wolf calls Zig and Zag.
Night's Pawn: The main character was a former Bodyguard for Richard Villiers. He just happens to know a rigger with a T-bird, and just happens to know how to use the weaponry on the T-bird (despite not having a vehicle control rig and having out-of-date cyberware). At the end, he takes down Alamais (a Great Dragon) with an orbital laser and survives the blast.
Dragonheart Trilogy: The main character was personally tutored by Dunkelzahn. He is fucking Nadja Daviar. He gets mindwiped to become the fleshpawn of a guy who is essentially a Jabba-the-Hutt-like blob of goo in a jar. He has a dwarf mercenary who has a third mechanical arm sticking out of his chest, and NO ONE notices. A cyberzombie chases him around, which then gets possessed by a free spirit named Lethe, who just happens to be the reincarnation of Dunkelzahn, and stands forever at the threshold between the Horrors and the Sixth World until the end of time.
The various adventures of Kane (throughout the Sourcebooks) are also pretty typical of Pink Mohawk. As is anything involving Harlequin. Anything involving Immortal Elves. The Orxploitation era. Almost anything involving the mage Talon. Most of the stuff involving the Year of the Comet metagenetics (people turn into literal cat-people and centaurs and shit).
There's a lot of silliness in Shadowrun. It's likely that the actual game that they are Kickstarting is going to be more serious than that, but I wouldn't put Saint's Row or Just Cause 2-style mayhem beyond the developers. After all, many folks are going to want to just mess around and shoot things with Panther Cannons.
Please stop. I already told you the intent of my post. And none of that, again, is the style of Three Stooges action that was in the post. I've read several of those and I don't see the connection you're trying to make. Sure, there's some over the top stuff, but it's mainly just big league shit with some of the head scratching weirdness that tends to happen in novelizations. I played first and second edition too. You don't need to show me everything you know.
And I would really, really, really hope we don't see anything like Saints Row style idiocy happening. Sure, the game will allow people to do stupid shit, but I don't think it's going to get them very far story wise. Can we drop this now?
But Hahnsoo1 has the right of it IMHO, the goofy PvP is indicative of the setting for Pink Mohawk side of the spectrum - and even if you are playing Mirror Shade, if you don't just have some "if they betray me or get possessed" contingency plans for handling or neutralizing your team mates, you're probably not pro enough :P
As far as I am concerned, the Pink Mohawks and Mirror Shades co-exist, with the Pink Mohawks often providing distractions and taking all the credit to the point of having a trid camera crew following them, where the Mirror Shades are no where to be seen and are only given credit by dragons who have poured over every unsubstantiated rumour out there or something.
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
But Hahnsoo1 has the right of it IMHO, the goofy PvP is indicative of the setting for Pink Mohawk side of the spectrum - and even if you are playing Mirror Shade, if you don't just have some "if they betray me or get possessed" contingency plans for handling or neutralizing your team mates, you're probably not pro enough :P
As far as I am concerned, the Pink Mohawks and Mirror Shades co-exist, with the Pink Mohawks often providing distractions and taking all the credit to the point of having a trid camera crew following them, where the Mirror Shades are no where to be seen and are only given credit by dragons who have poured over every unsubstantiated rumour out there or something.
I don't remember arguing against any of this. Can we please stop derailing?
Has there been any talk about vehicles outside of rigger drones?
Just for fun I once made an adept fighting with a staff. Oh boy was he a beast.
"Lie down now." *STUN DAMAGE*
Just for the hell of it, and because I wanted to throw something different at my players, I used Hero Lab to gin up a Physical Adept with great leap, wall walk, and other throwing powers. She carries tomahawks. I think I was influenced by Assassin's creed.
On Saturday, my rigger decided to strafe the 405 Bloodhounds base they were attacking, well ahead of the rest of the party, to create a distraction. She lept between two buildings and hurled a tomahawk and squarely pegged the drone.
I'm gonna do everything in my power to make sure she lives. It's too awesome an NPC to throwaway as a random mook. The player was PISSED that he dinged the drone.
Just for fun I once made an adept fighting with a staff. Oh boy was he a beast.
"Lie down now." *STUN DAMAGE*
Just for the hell of it, and because I wanted to throw something different at my players, I used Hero Lab to gin up a Physical Adept with great leap, wall walk, and other throwing powers. She carries tomahawks. I think I was influenced by Assassin's creed.
On Saturday, my rigger decided to strafe the 405 Bloodhounds base they were attacking, well ahead of the rest of the party, to create a distraction. She lept between two buildings and hurled a tomahawk and squarely pegged the drone.
I'm gonna do everything in my power to make sure she lives. It's too awesome an NPC to throwaway as a random mook. The player was PISSED that he dinged the drone.
Yeah, they already mentioned Riggers and drones were in at the 425k level along with Mac support. I'm wondering more motorcycles and what not. Not sure how those would work on a tactical map though. Depends on the size I suppose.
Riggers and drones in 2050? So they mean... a Doberman and that's it? *grin* Many of the common current Shadowrun drones didn't surface until after 2050. The drone options were really limited in the early books, even after the release of the Rigger Black Book. I suppose they can just retcon it in. At the very least, drones should exist as an integral part of the security opposition.
I doubt they'll have vehicular sequences or combat, since it's supposed to be turn-based tactical (is there a turn-based infantry/squad level tactical game that effectively and realistically uses vehicles other than cover?). Drones are essentially "metal metahumans" for the purposes of combat, so I can see that integration. I suppose DMZ rules supported mounted motorcycle combat.
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
Riggers and drones in 2050? So they mean... a Doberman and that's it? *grin* Many of the common current Shadowrun drones didn't surface until after 2050. The drone options were really limited in the early books, even after the release of the Rigger Black Book. I suppose they can just retcon it in. At the very least, drones should exist as an integral part of the security opposition.
I doubt they'll have vehicular sequences or combat, since it's supposed to be turn-based tactical (is there a turn-based infantry/squad level tactical game that effectively and realistically uses vehicles other than cover?). Drones are essentially "metal metahumans" for the purposes of combat, so I can see that integration. I suppose DMZ rules supported mounted motorcycle combat.
I could see armored security paddy wagons of sorts being used in street combat. They could probably add in some extra drone options without causing too many people to squeal.
I always wanted to see Appleseed'esque battle armor rules.
"You've done lots of jobs for me lately, runners. Here, have a two-week vacation at Renraku Arcology, all expenses paid, on me."
I thankfully missed the first attempt at that run which resulted in a near total party kill, so we were hired to infiltrate the already locked down arcology. We used to have big groups of runners, because it was a popular game at the local comic book shop and we never said no to new runners. We went in with 12 on this second try--two groups of six. Three of us and two runners from the original group that we went in to rescue made it back out. Climactic.
German... hipsters? I just can't seem to reconcile those two things. You are clearly making this up.
Nope, if you have a better word for 'fashionable alternative scene' people I'll take it. Berlin is full of hipsters, lots of people who look like they walked out of an alt pop fashion mag. Also a lot of punks.
But I happen to have visited Berlin just this weekend and it was amazing. It's like an irresistibly charming hipster disneyland right now and I'd like to see the shadowrun version of a city where an urban, very cultured anarchist distopia and a highly engineered, gruendlich corporate distopia collide. And they could tap one of the best music scenes on the planet for some video game music.
That pretty much describes the Seattle geography (except the cultured anarchists). On one side of the tracks is the corporate play-land with its tall buildings, flashing lights and arcologies, and on the other side of the tracks is the Puyallup Barrens and the Redmond Barrens which are massive unpoliced slums home to gangs, ghouls, and every kind of bad thing that moves in when the authorities look away.
For a runner, breaking into or out of east Berlin would be about as difficult as breaking into a corp, considering that they have the anarchist area completely walled off and secured by corp security.
Yeah unfortunately it does seem a bit too similar to that setup, having been to berlin and seattle it's not so strange even their fluff is similar, they have things in common. I'd still like to see an anarchist distopia setting, since most distopias are police states and anarchism is so far removed from that (in theory). I'm imagining a theme inside the walled anarchist commune about crypto-anarchism taken to its extreme. Everyone using old repaired technology, similar to how cubans still keep their old chevy's running you'd see berliner anarchists making do with wired tech, improvised power sources etc, but still having very effective and robust digital capabilities due to decentralized design.
I'd also like to see some thought given to the effect of surveillance and privacy on your going ons with the corps and anarchists. It would be interesting to have to hide your ability to slip in and out of the walled zones, deal with laundering (I don't see anarchists accepting nuyen), both anarchists and hostile corps being able to find out stuff about you through data mining in their own ways and protecting yourself from that. I'm hoping that will all fit into the established fluff and gameplay well, even though it's a really current issue.
The big contrast with the seattle setting could be how effective the anarchists are at managing themselves without corp interference. I want something far removed from that common theme that every lawless place devolves into some violent gang infested shithole. The fact the wall is there is testament to the effectiveness of the anarchists, the corps could not break them. Their society would still be far from perfect naturally, but in both very different and surprisingly similar ways from the corp side.
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
Riggers and drones in 2050? So they mean... a Doberman and that's it? *grin* Many of the common current Shadowrun drones didn't surface until after 2050. The drone options were really limited in the early books, even after the release of the Rigger Black Book. I suppose they can just retcon it in. At the very least, drones should exist as an integral part of the security opposition.
I doubt they'll have vehicular sequences or combat, since it's supposed to be turn-based tactical (is there a turn-based infantry/squad level tactical game that effectively and realistically uses vehicles other than cover?). Drones are essentially "metal metahumans" for the purposes of combat, so I can see that integration. I suppose DMZ rules supported mounted motorcycle combat.
I dunno. "This Old Drone" takes a lot of current-day drones and puts them in the rules. It wouldn't be that hard to use a lot of those, avoiding copyright issues.
I mean, hell.. I was looking through the 2nd corebook and the original Ares Predator was pretty much exactly the modified Beretta they used in Robocop. Funny that 4th only has the rules for the II, III, and IV...
While I suppose there's precious little "civilization" to work with there, I really want to see Chicago. I admit, part of that is because I never got to run a game in good ol' Bug City, but how cool would that be? That place is such a glorious mess in the '50s. All those insect spirits could make for great action and great horror. The corps still have an interest there, but their presence is so diminished that it would give the area a nice "wild" vibe compared to Seattle.
Berlin would be my next pick, because if anyone deserve a little recognition it's the German fans. I just fear it would be too much like Seattle for many of the reasons outlined up-thread.
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
Once again, Chicago was not a feral city until 2055, and the nuke went off in like 2057/58, and FAB was released in 61 or so. It would just be a Mafia-owned city full of hidden bugs and humanist extremists.
Riggers and drones in 2050? So they mean... a Doberman and that's it? *grin* Many of the common current Shadowrun drones didn't surface until after 2050. The drone options were really limited in the early books, even after the release of the Rigger Black Book. I suppose they can just retcon it in. At the very least, drones should exist as an integral part of the security opposition.
I doubt they'll have vehicular sequences or combat, since it's supposed to be turn-based tactical (is there a turn-based infantry/squad level tactical game that effectively and realistically uses vehicles other than cover?). Drones are essentially "metal metahumans" for the purposes of combat, so I can see that integration. I suppose DMZ rules supported mounted motorcycle combat.
Hey now, the Rigger Black Book had some nice drones, but....yeah. Pretty much all the dog drones were where it was at. Doberman and the Dalmation (think basically a flying doberman) seemed to be good staples. The rest were pretty iffy, surveillance only, or similarly specialized.
I think vehicles would work similarly to drones, considering that the early drone rules were just like the vehicle ones (not sure, but I seem to remember them being the same actually).
Once again, Chicago was not a feral city until 2055, and the nuke went off in like 2057/58, and FAB was released in 61 or so. It would just be a Mafia-owned city full of hidden bugs and humanist extremists.
You'd still have the Shattergraves (the area around the bombed and collapsed Sears Tower), and the chance to go up against the Universal Brotherhood. Heck the Universal Brotherhood was so preeminent that you could do several runs just linked to the mystery surrounding them, much like the Renraku Arcology was later.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I dunno anything about Chicago, but it seems like it would be a pretty big waste to me to include it if it's just a big bug town. I'd be pretty happy with any city that's got plenty of complexity and conflict behind it, though I definitely wouldn't want Portland because it's just next door to Seattle. It'd be much better to have a place far away, preferably not on the North American continent, just so we can add the zest of international intrigue to the mix.
The funding is verging on $800k, by the way, and the project isn't even half over yet. Pretty strong odds it'll break a million, which will be awesome.
Well, Chicago would be a nice chance to use the material written in the Neo-Anarchist Guide to North America. Since Chicago became Bug City, all of that old flavor was pretty much nuked and wiped out, and everyone forgets that it was a legitimate old-school campaign location that wasn't full of bugs. Truman Technologies, Elemental Hall in the University of Chicago, The Noose, Brilliant Genesis Studios, UCAS Steel, and a meat processing corp called Fast-Flesh Enterprises (I kid you not). A higher Mafia to Yakuza ratio allows you to play more Mafia-related stories (although you can make the same argument for Boston as a campaign location). And again, they can make a Shadowrun in the old FASA offices there, which would be hilariously fun.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Yeah, if it was that Chicago, I'd have almost no issue with it whatsoever as a second city. It's all the different associations and conflicts that make the Shadowrun setting so great; a whole city filled with bugs you kill would be tedious in comparison. Not to mention we already have plenty of games that involve killing endless waves of bugs of some sort.
And something completely overrun with bugs, while dangerous, just wouldn't have the right flavor. A bug city works fine for tabletop where the players can access all the other places around the world as well, but it'd be a pretty bland choice if it's just Bugchago and Seattle.
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chiasaur11Never doubt a raccoon.Do you think it's trademarked?Registered Userregular
Riggers and drones in 2050? So they mean... a Doberman and that's it? *grin* Many of the common current Shadowrun drones didn't surface until after 2050. The drone options were really limited in the early books, even after the release of the Rigger Black Book. I suppose they can just retcon it in. At the very least, drones should exist as an integral part of the security opposition.
I doubt they'll have vehicular sequences or combat, since it's supposed to be turn-based tactical (is there a turn-based infantry/squad level tactical game that effectively and realistically uses vehicles other than cover?). Drones are essentially "metal metahumans" for the purposes of combat, so I can see that integration. I suppose DMZ rules supported mounted motorcycle combat.
Not saying it did them WELL (always shifted to realtime when I got a truck), but Fallout Tactics had vehicles in the squad level combat.
AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
That sounds really fun - that old school Chicago. I got a slight feeling of that from the Manhattan PDF.
It doesn't send me into a frothing rage, but I do get annoyed when I see Chicago artwork with the Sears Tower in it. Feral Cities made that mistake; I think Dawn of the Artifacts: Midnight avoided it.
I know basically nothing about Shadowrun other than the fact I loved the Sega Genesis game and the world it presented. How does that game hold up for Shadowrun enthusiasts?
Steam: hewn
Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
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TIFunkaliciousKicking back inNebraskaRegistered Userregular
edited April 2012
I think people appreciate the effort/atmosphere of the sega game but it's not really shadowrun
the tabletop game just isn't a conducive set of rules to making a videogame. So much crap to include and many things are simply up to the gamemaster. I remember being called upon to invent many rulings and skill checks on the spot
it is very much on the cops and robbers side of roleplaying, where the fun can be helped or hindered by how much the GM/players decide to get in each others way with the wide sea of options
one of my first experiences with 4th ed is trying to roll a bread and butter burglar with ONE drone helper and ended giving up on the whole thing while choosing programs the drone was loaded with
I think people appreciate the effort/atmosphere of the sega game but it's not really shadowrun
the tabletop game just isn't a conducive set of rules to making a videogame. So much crap to include and many things are simply up to the gamemaster. I remember being called upon to invent many rulings and skill checks on the spot
it is very much on the cops and robbers side of roleplaying, where the fun can be helped or hindered by how much the GM/players decide to get in each others way with the wide sea of options
I disagree. Vampire: The Masquerade - Redemption used the same rolls from the tabletop game for combat, and essentially turned it into a Diablo-like. It worked fairly well (even had mod tools to make your own adventures, but they weren't nearly as flexible as Neverwinter Nights).
Shadowrun combat is less complicated than X-Com, and this is going to be a turn-based tactical game. There's probably going to be streamlining, of course, but they are working with 2050 tech, which is far less complicated and sophisticated than any iteration of Shadowrun above 1st edition. The only essential things to include for combat include (IMO):
1) Technological/Magical enhancements for attacks (Smartlinks)
2) Cover system
3) Multiple Actions system for reflex enhancements (a staple of Shadowrun combat is that the person with reflex enhancements can act multiple times per round)
4) Recoil for firearms (and recoil compensation)
5) Range brackets for firearms (or a sliding scale of range penalties)
Those are 99% of the modifiers that you'd actually use in a typical Shadowrun game. Everything else is just window dressing.
Optionally, they can include lighting (benefits for Thermo/Low Light), but I'd understand if that portion was tabled due to technological/development time concerns (a 2D game would require a lightmap for every single map, and if it's dynamic...).
I'm probably biased, because I've been thinking about how to implement Shadowrun rules in a video game setting for years. As I've been playing various video games, I'd think "This would be so easy to make as a Shadowrun-licensed game" when I play Syndicate or X-Com or Just Cause or Grand Theft Auto or Fallout 3. Of course, then we get crap like the Shadowrun 2007 FPS. Backpack hang-glider elves.
EDIT: This isn't to say that there aren't problems to solve. But most of these are pretty easy to do, mechanics-wise, by simply limiting the options in a manner that most normal video games already do. You don't see many cantrips and utility spells in Baldur's Gate, for example. You won't see every single drone, every single program, and every single weapon ever put in a sourcebook. Things that are complicated like cyberdecks and drones can simply be bought off-the-shelf (with maybe a manufacturer bonus, like in Borderlands). Shadowrun is infamous for having few limits on their dice pools (a problem that only was recently rule-limited in 4th edition with the introduction of the "augmented maximum" pool rules, and even then, you can stack a ridiculous amount of dice that would make most GMs cry), and so there would have to be decent limits to prevent "breaking" the game (like how Fallout 3/NV limits your skills to 100 and SPECIAL to 10, even though the game can scale it higher). I look forward to seeing how they choose to set up the combat and the RPG elements of the game.
Hahnsoo1 on
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acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
my question is how the hell is mac supported but linux not? I mean, given their target platforms the only thing that would make any sense whatsoever to use would be java what with there being a JVM for every platform under the sun.
It’s obvious that there are a lot of very passionate fans out there who are clamoring for Linux support, and we would love to be able to include everyone in Shadowrun Returns.
As we said over the weekend, we’re being very careful not to over-commit to ideas and features (especially just to get more funding).
When we added the Mac version of the game (thanks to your enthusiastic support), we did it because we have the necessary Mac experience in-house and our development environment already supports PC and Mac. We were confident that we could deliver without over-burdening the overall product.
Linux is a bit of a different story, however. While it’s true that we have a great environment for cross-platform development (how else could we target PC, Mac, iOS, AND Android!), it does not, at this time, include support for Linux. Because of this and because we needed to add Linux to our small studio’s skill-set, we felt that committing to a Linux version was unwise, so we (reluctantly) took it off the table.
Since that time, two important things have happened:
We reached out to members of the Linux community to better understand the scope and developmental risk that a Linux port would introduce.
Our partners at Zipline Games (the creators of our dev environment, Moai) have rearranged their development roadmap to support Shadowrun Returns and add Linux to their list of supported platforms.
So here’s the deal: We can now say with confidence that if we hit our $1M stretch goal, we will be able to partner with the right external developer, port Shadowrun Returns to Linux, and deliver it in a reasonable amount of time after the game is released.
We’ll also add it to the $15 reward level (alongside the PC/Mac versions). Now if you’re a Linux-only user, you’ll have to wait for your version, but from what you’ve told us, you’re willing to do that.
Thanks again for all the support, the constructive comments, and for your patience.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
my question is how the hell is mac supported but linux not? I mean, given their target platforms the only thing that would make any sense whatsoever to use would be java what with there being a JVM for every platform under the sun.
Well, for one, Mac stuff is a pretty closed, static system, unlike open-source Linux where you have no idea what a person's system might be like. There's the potential there for the user's setup to be even more unexpected than those in the PC market since you can have all sorts of home-baked drivers involved.
Still, good to hear they're guaranteeing Linux if they hit a million and in a way that won't suck time and resources away from making the game.
Personally I'd go for something more alien than that. Like fleshing out Yakut.
I feel the same way, which is why I'd prefer if the second city wasn't a major American city. Sure, each big city is different, but another big American city would naturally mean a tendency towards more of the same American culture bleeding into that area. Seattle will have plenty of that, so why not pick some place with a completely different flavor?
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
I really wish they'd use the Linux development money for something else. :?
I really wish they'd use the Mac/Android/iOS development money for something else. :?
Really? No Mac support? I can see not caring about the iOS and Android versions, but Mac? Really?
I don't use a Mac outside of work. Why would I care about Mac support? From every other point of view (ie, support = backers) I see Linux as equally, if not more valid, simply because of the target audience for the game.
Glal on
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
I really wish they'd use the Mac/Android/iOS development money for something else. :?
Really? No Mac support? I can see not caring about the iOS and Android versions, but Mac? Really?
I don't use a Mac outside of work. Why would I care about Mac support? From every other point of view (ie, support = backers) I see Linux as equally, if not more valid, simply because of the target audience for the game.
I'm pretty sure there's a much, much, much larger base of gamers (potential buyers) on Macs then there are on Linux based PCs. Almost everyone I know has Macs.
I know one gamer that uses a Mac for gaming. Everyone else is Windows, Linux, consoles or combinations of above. So, yeah, anecdotal and all that. Macs may have a bigger buyer base, but whether or not your average Mac gamer is actually the type that will buy this sort of game is debatable. I'm unconvinced, but you clearly disagree.
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My perception is the opposite of yours, as far as Adepts. Adepts were way overpowered, especially by the end of the 3rd edition development cycle (mostly due to Initiation rules). In first edition, they had auto-successes, which put them above and beyond most Samurai in power. In 2nd edition, they were underpowered until the release of the Grimoire, where initiation allowed them to reach power levels far beyond what Samurai could squeeze into their bodies Essence-wise (not to mention all of the benefits of initiation, like Masking and Centering). Samurai were typically better at guns and adepts were typically better at hand-to-hand in 2nd edition due to power costs and the huge benefit of a cybernetic smartlink. In 3rd edition, costs for bonus dice in guns were reduced and adepts gained abilities that mimicked or stacked with smartlinks/laser sights, but Samurai had more Essence-friendly options for 'ware, as well, so they evened out. In 4th edition, I'd say Adepts have a leg up on Sammies, with greatly reduced power costs in most categories. In hand-to-hand, Killing Hands scales way better now (you can pump hand-to-hand damage much higher than the bonus given by Titanium Bone Lacing). For gun combat, smartlinks now are only an extra pool of bonus dice, and adept powers stack with it pretty easily. Also, reflex enhancement is much cheaper for an Adept in 4th Edition, and the benefit for Cybernetic/Bioware Reflex Enhancement is reduced.
Really, a Adept with a balance of Magic and Cyber/Bioware was the most powerful route to go (best of both worlds, and Initiation compensates for any Essence-related magic loss), but that requires an intricate knowledge of the mechanics. Flavor-wise, quite a few elite militaries and corporations have adepts who are enhanced with bioware and cyberware, so it fits within the world-view.
Don't need no chrome. Don't need no big guns. I gotta head full of comic books and two bloody great pistols and that's all I need.
"Lie down now." *STUN DAMAGE*
Please stop. I already told you the intent of my post. And none of that, again, is the style of Three Stooges action that was in the post. I've read several of those and I don't see the connection you're trying to make. Sure, there's some over the top stuff, but it's mainly just big league shit with some of the head scratching weirdness that tends to happen in novelizations. I played first and second edition too. You don't need to show me everything you know.
And I would really, really, really hope we don't see anything like Saints Row style idiocy happening. Sure, the game will allow people to do stupid shit, but I don't think it's going to get them very far story wise. Can we drop this now?
As far as I am concerned, the Pink Mohawks and Mirror Shades co-exist, with the Pink Mohawks often providing distractions and taking all the credit to the point of having a trid camera crew following them, where the Mirror Shades are no where to be seen and are only given credit by dragons who have poured over every unsubstantiated rumour out there or something.
I don't remember arguing against any of this. Can we please stop derailing?
Has there been any talk about vehicles outside of rigger drones?
Can "we" stop doing this?
I am, notice my question about vehicles.
Just for the hell of it, and because I wanted to throw something different at my players, I used Hero Lab to gin up a Physical Adept with great leap, wall walk, and other throwing powers. She carries tomahawks. I think I was influenced by Assassin's creed.
On Saturday, my rigger decided to strafe the 405 Bloodhounds base they were attacking, well ahead of the rest of the party, to create a distraction. She lept between two buildings and hurled a tomahawk and squarely pegged the drone.
I'm gonna do everything in my power to make sure she lives. It's too awesome an NPC to throwaway as a random mook.
Yeah, they already mentioned Riggers and drones were in at the 425k level along with Mac support. I'm wondering more motorcycles and what not. Not sure how those would work on a tactical map though. Depends on the size I suppose.
I doubt they'll have vehicular sequences or combat, since it's supposed to be turn-based tactical (is there a turn-based infantry/squad level tactical game that effectively and realistically uses vehicles other than cover?). Drones are essentially "metal metahumans" for the purposes of combat, so I can see that integration. I suppose DMZ rules supported mounted motorcycle combat.
I could see armored security paddy wagons of sorts being used in street combat. They could probably add in some extra drone options without causing too many people to squeal.
I always wanted to see Appleseed'esque battle armor rules.
Those fucking bees
Nope, if you have a better word for 'fashionable alternative scene' people I'll take it. Berlin is full of hipsters, lots of people who look like they walked out of an alt pop fashion mag. Also a lot of punks.
Yeah unfortunately it does seem a bit too similar to that setup, having been to berlin and seattle it's not so strange even their fluff is similar, they have things in common. I'd still like to see an anarchist distopia setting, since most distopias are police states and anarchism is so far removed from that (in theory). I'm imagining a theme inside the walled anarchist commune about crypto-anarchism taken to its extreme. Everyone using old repaired technology, similar to how cubans still keep their old chevy's running you'd see berliner anarchists making do with wired tech, improvised power sources etc, but still having very effective and robust digital capabilities due to decentralized design.
I'd also like to see some thought given to the effect of surveillance and privacy on your going ons with the corps and anarchists. It would be interesting to have to hide your ability to slip in and out of the walled zones, deal with laundering (I don't see anarchists accepting nuyen), both anarchists and hostile corps being able to find out stuff about you through data mining in their own ways and protecting yourself from that. I'm hoping that will all fit into the established fluff and gameplay well, even though it's a really current issue.
The big contrast with the seattle setting could be how effective the anarchists are at managing themselves without corp interference. I want something far removed from that common theme that every lawless place devolves into some violent gang infested shithole. The fact the wall is there is testament to the effectiveness of the anarchists, the corps could not break them. Their society would still be far from perfect naturally, but in both very different and surprisingly similar ways from the corp side.
I dunno. "This Old Drone" takes a lot of current-day drones and puts them in the rules. It wouldn't be that hard to use a lot of those, avoiding copyright issues.
I mean, hell.. I was looking through the 2nd corebook and the original Ares Predator was pretty much exactly the modified Beretta they used in Robocop. Funny that 4th only has the rules for the II, III, and IV...
Berlin would be my next pick, because if anyone deserve a little recognition it's the German fans. I just fear it would be too much like Seattle for many of the reasons outlined up-thread.
Hey now, the Rigger Black Book had some nice drones, but....yeah. Pretty much all the dog drones were where it was at. Doberman and the Dalmation (think basically a flying doberman) seemed to be good staples. The rest were pretty iffy, surveillance only, or similarly specialized.
I think vehicles would work similarly to drones, considering that the early drone rules were just like the vehicle ones (not sure, but I seem to remember them being the same actually).
You'd still have the Shattergraves (the area around the bombed and collapsed Sears Tower), and the chance to go up against the Universal Brotherhood. Heck the Universal Brotherhood was so preeminent that you could do several runs just linked to the mystery surrounding them, much like the Renraku Arcology was later.
The funding is verging on $800k, by the way, and the project isn't even half over yet. Pretty strong odds it'll break a million, which will be awesome.
And something completely overrun with bugs, while dangerous, just wouldn't have the right flavor. A bug city works fine for tabletop where the players can access all the other places around the world as well, but it'd be a pretty bland choice if it's just Bugchago and Seattle.
Not saying it did them WELL (always shifted to realtime when I got a truck), but Fallout Tactics had vehicles in the squad level combat.
Why I fear the ocean.
It doesn't send me into a frothing rage, but I do get annoyed when I see Chicago artwork with the Sears Tower in it. Feral Cities made that mistake; I think Dawn of the Artifacts: Midnight avoided it.
Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
the tabletop game just isn't a conducive set of rules to making a videogame. So much crap to include and many things are simply up to the gamemaster. I remember being called upon to invent many rulings and skill checks on the spot
it is very much on the cops and robbers side of roleplaying, where the fun can be helped or hindered by how much the GM/players decide to get in each others way with the wide sea of options
one of my first experiences with 4th ed is trying to roll a bread and butter burglar with ONE drone helper and ended giving up on the whole thing while choosing programs the drone was loaded with
Shadowrun combat is less complicated than X-Com, and this is going to be a turn-based tactical game. There's probably going to be streamlining, of course, but they are working with 2050 tech, which is far less complicated and sophisticated than any iteration of Shadowrun above 1st edition. The only essential things to include for combat include (IMO):
1) Technological/Magical enhancements for attacks (Smartlinks)
2) Cover system
3) Multiple Actions system for reflex enhancements (a staple of Shadowrun combat is that the person with reflex enhancements can act multiple times per round)
4) Recoil for firearms (and recoil compensation)
5) Range brackets for firearms (or a sliding scale of range penalties)
Those are 99% of the modifiers that you'd actually use in a typical Shadowrun game. Everything else is just window dressing.
Optionally, they can include lighting (benefits for Thermo/Low Light), but I'd understand if that portion was tabled due to technological/development time concerns (a 2D game would require a lightmap for every single map, and if it's dynamic...).
I'm probably biased, because I've been thinking about how to implement Shadowrun rules in a video game setting for years. As I've been playing various video games, I'd think "This would be so easy to make as a Shadowrun-licensed game" when I play Syndicate or X-Com or Just Cause or Grand Theft Auto or Fallout 3. Of course, then we get crap like the Shadowrun 2007 FPS. Backpack hang-glider elves.
EDIT: This isn't to say that there aren't problems to solve. But most of these are pretty easy to do, mechanics-wise, by simply limiting the options in a manner that most normal video games already do. You don't see many cantrips and utility spells in Baldur's Gate, for example. You won't see every single drone, every single program, and every single weapon ever put in a sourcebook. Things that are complicated like cyberdecks and drones can simply be bought off-the-shelf (with maybe a manufacturer bonus, like in Borderlands). Shadowrun is infamous for having few limits on their dice pools (a problem that only was recently rule-limited in 4th edition with the introduction of the "augmented maximum" pool rules, and even then, you can stack a ridiculous amount of dice that would make most GMs cry), and so there would have to be decent limits to prevent "breaking" the game (like how Fallout 3/NV limits your skills to 100 and SPECIAL to 10, even though the game can scale it higher). I look forward to seeing how they choose to set up the combat and the RPG elements of the game.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
Well, for one, Mac stuff is a pretty closed, static system, unlike open-source Linux where you have no idea what a person's system might be like. There's the potential there for the user's setup to be even more unexpected than those in the PC market since you can have all sorts of home-baked drivers involved.
Still, good to hear they're guaranteeing Linux if they hit a million and in a way that won't suck time and resources away from making the game.
I feel the same way, which is why I'd prefer if the second city wasn't a major American city. Sure, each big city is different, but another big American city would naturally mean a tendency towards more of the same American culture bleeding into that area. Seattle will have plenty of that, so why not pick some place with a completely different flavor?
Yeah, hopefully adding Linux gets them a lot of pledges from Linux users.
Really? No Mac support? I can see not caring about the iOS and Android versions, but Mac? Really?
I think releasing the Linux version "when it's done" and not holding up the game's release is a reasonable compromise.
We should be able to track any Linux bump here. Overall pledges are keeping pretty steady. Still I'd like to see multi-millions just to show up MS.
Not that I'm bitter.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
I'm pretty sure there's a much, much, much larger base of gamers (potential buyers) on Macs then there are on Linux based PCs. Almost everyone I know has Macs.