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[Arizona] says, you're pregnant for up to two weeks before you're pregnant.

DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
edited April 2012 in Debate and/or Discourse
http://rt.com/usa/news/arizona-bill-conception-abortion-387/

This is so mind-bogglingly stupid that I think I gave myself Cancer just trying to figure it out.
A new bill up for vote in the state of Arizona would ban abortions for some expectant mothers, but that’s only the start of what lawmakers have in store. If the legislation passes, the state will consider a child to exist even before conception.

Under Arizona’s H.B. 2036, the state would recognize the start of the unborn child’s life to be the first day of its mother’s last menstrual period. The legislation is being proposed so that lawmakers can outlaw abortions on fetuses past the age of 20-weeks, but the verbiage its authors use to construct a time cycle for the baby would mean that the start of the child's life could very well occur up to two weeks before the mother and father even ponder procreating.

On page eight of the proposed amendment to H.B. 2036, lawmakers lay out the “gestational age” of the child to be “calculated from the first day of the last menstrual period of the pregnant woman,” and from there, outlaws abortion “if the probable gestational age of [the] unborn child has been determined to be at least twenty weeks.”

The architects of the amendment say that prohibiting abortion after 20 weeks — except in cases of medical emergency — is necessary for the safety of both mother and child. By designating a life to begin weeks before even possible, however, some critics are condemning Arizona lawmakers for looking for a way to involve itself in abortion matters before it can even become an issue.

“Certainly, they are trying move the gestational cutoff from what had been over the last two years a 20-week gestational cutoff to an 18-week gestational cutoff,” Guttmacher Institute’s State Issues Manager Elizabeth Nash tells Raw Story. “At the same time, they are trying to say, ‘Oh, this is a 20-week abortion ban.’ And they get away with that with the definition of gestational age that’s in the bill.”

“Considering that it’s anti-choice nuts we’re talking about, it’s safe to assume that they’d simply prefer a situation where all women of reproductive age are considered to be pregnant, on the grounds that they could be two weeks from now,” RH Reality Check’s Amanda Marcotte adds in a recently-penned editorial. “Better safe than sorry, especially if that mentality means you get to exert maximum control over the bodies of women of reproductive age.”

In extending her support for the legislation, however, sponsor Nancy Barto, a Republican senator representing the Phoenix, Arizona area says that fetuses are able to feel pain after the 20-week mark. Also favoring the proposal, Senator Steve Smith (R-Maricopa) adds that lawmakers also need to consider “the 50 million-plus children who have been killed” since the US Supreme Court legalized abortion in Roe v Wade.

"I would like to listen to the 50 million-plus children that have been aborted and killed since Roe v. Wade,'' the senator says."I would like to listen to what they think of this bill.''

Mother Jones adds in their own reporting, however, that while the law could be explained as an effort to deter complications that come from late-term abortions, opening up the window for the gestational age to begin before conception can hurt the parents in the long run. Essentially the act would outlaw abortion after 18 weeks, not 20 as the legislation claims, which could keep some concerned parents from making a decision about pregnancy before some medical procedures that gauge the health of the child are able to be determined. While some tests can be conducted soon after conception to catch potential life-threatening conditions and other impairments, outlawing abortions after the eighteenth week could keep parents from opting for abortion after other tests can be carried out (before the 20-week mark).

H.B. 2036 passed in the Arizona Senator by 20-to-10 and will soon go before the state’s House. To Raw Story, Elizabeth Nash says she believes the bill has a “very good chances of passage.”

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  • TheBlackWindTheBlackWind Registered User regular
    For what it's worth, I'm totally open to letting mexico have Arizona.

    That fact about stages of testing makes me sad. These people aren't worried about quality of life for these children. Terrible.

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  • VariableVariable Ted Hitler Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited April 2012
    For what it's worth, I'm totally open to letting mexico have Arizona.

    That fact about stages of testing makes me sad. These people aren't worried about quality of life for these children. Terrible.

    I don't agree with them

    but yeah, they'll take lower quality of life over death. that shouldn't surprise you.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    i but what huh

    Like, I get that if you want to create some stupid new restriction based on number of weeks pregnant, you need to set a date to start from. The policy is dumb, but I get the idea. But...man, talk to a biology teacher. But probably not one from Arizona. Get one from out of state.

  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    "I would like to listen to the 50 million-plus children that have been aborted and killed since Roe v. Wade,'' the senator says."I would like to listen to what they think of this bill.''

    So, Arizona has solved the problem of how to attach predicates to nothing: Ignorance.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    i but what huh

    Like, I get that if you want to create some stupid new restriction based on number of weeks pregnant, you need to set a date to start from. The policy is dumb, but I get the idea. But...man, talk to a biology teacher. But probably not one from Arizona. Get one from out of state.

    But that way they don't get to shame you by asking about your period.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Man, I'd just lie. "I don't remember the last time I got my period. Guess I've been pregnant forever."

  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    Donnicton wrote:
    the state would recognize the start of the unborn child’s life to be the first day of its mother’s last menstrual period.

    So, wait, on the first day after one's menstral peroid ends, a life begins?

    Or, once an egg is fertilized, its life had begun prior to its being fertilized?

    ...what?

  • HenroidHenroid Nobody Nowhere fastRegistered User regular
    Interstate 10 (I think it's 10) connecting Arizona and California is one of the worst roads ever, it has like zero maintenance. It more or less is a good sign of what you're getting into.

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  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    This is like Schrodinger's fetus.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    On a side note, awesome potential punk band name.

  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Interstate 10 (I think it's 10) connecting Arizona and California is one of the worst roads ever, it has like zero maintenance. It more or less is a good sign of what you're getting into.

    They probably spend all of their time and money trying to improve the first 5 miles that don't exist.

  • HenroidHenroid Nobody Nowhere fastRegistered User regular
    This is like Schrodinger's fetus.

    Oh my god yes. :^:

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  • HacksawHacksaw J Duggan Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    All this useless fertility worship. What's the matter, old white people? Don't have enough grand kids for your liking?

  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    I can't even. This...this doesn't...

    When a woman's period starts, the life of her child begins...if the egg to be released after menstruation becomes a zygote. So, if there is a zygote, it existed...prior to being a zygote? How...what...how....

  • chrisnlchrisnl Registered User regular
    So is the next step to ban women from drinking unless they are on their period? Wouldn't want there to be a risk of fetal alcohol syndrome would we?

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  • GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    I love how no matter how utterly fucking crazy they get, even when one of their own firebombs an abortion clinic, their counterargument is always 'WELL MAYBE WE SHOULD ASK THE DEAD BABIES WHAT THEY THINK OF YOU BEING A BABY-KILLING MURDERER HMMMMM? HMMMMMMM? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM? YEAH YOU DON'T LIKE THAT, NOW, DO YOU?'

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  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    Ok...ok...here's what this says:

    If an egg never becomes a zygote, then it never was a zygote.

    If an egg becomes a zygote, then it already was a zygote when your last period started.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    Ok...ok...here's what this says:

    If an egg never becomes a zygote, then it never was a zygote.

    If an egg becomes a zygote, then it already was a zygote when your last period started.

    You're thinking too hard.
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  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    Ok...ok...here's what this says:

    If an egg never becomes a zygote, then it never was a zygote.

    If an egg becomes a zygote, then it already was a zygote when your last period started.

    You're thinking too hard.
    The Bill wrote:
    SLUT SLUT SLUT SLUT SLUT SLUTTY SLUT WHORE SLUT SLUT Jesusfish

    You left out "babyoven".

    Cause for these people, women are just babyovens.

  • GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    If a woman is assaulted or killed in Arizona now, would the attacker be charged with causing quantum miscarriage?

    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
  • Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    Ok...ok...here's what this says:

    If an egg never becomes a zygote, then it never was a zygote.

    If an egg becomes a zygote, then it already was a zygote when your last period started.

    Think of it this way: only a crazy woman should be allowed to get an abortion
    However, the fact that they're asking for an abortion rather than giving birth in Arizona proves they're not crazy
    Therefore no woman in Arizona should be allowed to have an abortion

  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Ok...ok...here's what this says:

    If an egg never becomes a zygote, then it never was a zygote.

    If an egg becomes a zygote, then it already was a zygote when your last period started.

    Think of it this way: only a crazy woman should be allowed to get an abortion
    However, the fact that they're asking for an abortion rather than giving birth in Arizona proves they're not crazy
    Therefore no woman in Arizona should be allowed to have an abortion

    It's a Catch twenty-zygotes!

  • psyck0psyck0 Registered User regular
    It's because in medicine there are 2 ways to measure pregnancy age: gestational age, which is what the MDs use clinically, measures it from the date of the start of the woman's last period, and embryonic age, which measures it from the date of fertilization, ~2 weeks after that. MDs use the former because it is not really possible to actually know the latter for human fetuses, while embryologists use the latter because it is more precise. The former leads to a 40 week pregnancy while the latter leads to a 38 week pregnancy. They're just replacing one definition with another.

    Fucking republicans...

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  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    psyck0 wrote: »
    It's because in medicine there are 2 ways to measure pregnancy age: gestational age, which is what the MDs use clinically, measures it from the date of the start of the woman's last period, and embryonic age, which measures it from the date of fertilization, ~2 weeks after that. MDs use the former because it is not really possible to actually know the latter for human fetuses, while embryologists use the latter because it is more precise. The former leads to a 40 week pregnancy while the latter leads to a 38 week pregnancy. They're just replacing one definition with another.

    Fucking republicans...

    Wait.

    Wait.

    "If an egg becomes a zygote, then it already was a zygote when your last period started." was already something medical doctors thought?

    That was already an idea maintained by persons in the medical profession prior to this bill?!

  • psyck0psyck0 Registered User regular
    No. Jesus christ. It's used because it is actually possible to know when the woman's last period was, and it is not possible to know when the egg was fertilized (without taking it out).

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  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    psyck0 wrote: »
    No. Jesus christ. It's used because it is actually possible to know when the woman's last period was, and it is not possible to know when the egg was fertilized (without taking it out).

    But it is possible to know the last time she fucked.

    Edit: Or, the first time she fucked after her period.

    _J_ on
  • psyck0psyck0 Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Most people have sex more than once, sperm are viable for several days, we can't know precisely when she ovulated, etc, etc.

    MDs are not idiots. Just because you don't understand something doesn't make them dumb.

    Gestational age is useful, gives a predictable length of pregnancy (40 weeks, give or take a bit) and MOST IMPORTANTLY is something we can actually reliably determine so that everyone is using the same standard.

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  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    psyck0 wrote: »
    Most people have sex more than once, sperm are viable for several days, we can't know precisely when she ovulated, etc, etc.

    MDs are not idiots. Just because you don't understand something doesn't make them dumb.

    Gestational age is useful, gives a predictable length of pregnancy (40 weeks, give or take a bit) and MOST IMPORTANTLY is something we can actually reliably determine so that everyone is using the same standard.

    But it's metaphysically problematic to claim that something started gestating before it existed.

    Edit: Which is what most people seem to take issue with in this legislation: Women are legally pregnant before they're pregnant.

    _J_ on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax Bondage Discipline Spider-Man Registered User regular
    Just to be clear, Psyck0 is talking about how doctors talk to their patients about embryonic development as in "This should be developed by x weeks" and "that will be happening at y weeks" it isn't supposed to be a precise measurement. That is a 40 week thing The more precise stuff is the other scale that he was talking about, that is a 38 week period of time.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Just to be clear, Psyck0 is talking about how doctors talk to their patients about embryonic development as in "This should be developed by x weeks" and "that will be happening at y weeks" it isn't supposed to be a precise measurement. That is a 40 week thing The more precise stuff is the other scale that he was talking about, that is a 38 week period of time.

    Yeah...

    It's just odd that when persons read this, the first thought was that this bill is discussing Schrodinger's fetus. And then he came in and said that all doctors talk in terms of Schrodinger's fetus.

    That's a very odd thing for doctors to do.

  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious Registered User regular
    The other day I was thinking to myself that men shouldn't pass laws that only effect women. You know, the whole concept of no representation.

    I guess I forgot there are some crazy damn females in politics. This just blew my mind.

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    _J_ wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Just to be clear, Psyck0 is talking about how doctors talk to their patients about embryonic development as in "This should be developed by x weeks" and "that will be happening at y weeks" it isn't supposed to be a precise measurement. That is a 40 week thing The more precise stuff is the other scale that he was talking about, that is a 38 week period of time.

    Yeah...

    It's just odd that when persons read this, the first thought was that this bill is discussing Schrodinger's fetus. And then he came in and said that all doctors talk in terms of Schrodinger's fetus.

    That's a very odd thing for doctors to do.

    It's not odd, it's just convention. It only becomes crazy-pants when you try to use it to define when life begins. It's like having a temperature scale that extends to below zero. That's perfectly fine until some dumbshit decides it's immoral to have negative heat based on his complete butchering of physical law and labels Antarctica some sort of thermodynamic Gomorrah.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    I have always wondered: how long do you take to come up with your metaphors, Jeffe? Are you some kind of absurd genius or do your posts reflect a gigantic amount of effort to develop the most ridiculous if appropriate metaphor for any given situation?

    Lose: to suffer defeat, to misplace (Ex: "I hope I don't lose the match." "Did you lose your phone again?")
    Loose: about to slip, to release (Ex: "That knot is loose." "Loose arrows.")
  • override367override367 misogynist/MRA/socially irresponsible Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    The other day I was thinking to myself that men shouldn't pass laws that only effect women. You know, the whole concept of no representation.

    I guess I forgot there are some crazy damn females in politics. This just blew my mind.

    It's really weird isn't it? I guess it's the same as a latino person voting Republican. The party has an extremely clear anti-women anti-latino agenda and yet still hasn't lost total support from either demographic

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    I have always wondered: how long do you take to come up with your metaphors, Jeffe? Are you some kind of absurd genius or do your posts reflect a gigantic amount of effort to develop the most ridiculous if appropriate metaphor for any given situation?

    I just sort of open my mouth and stuff comes out in some beautiful vomitus of metaphor.

    Oh, and currently I just downed an especially large White Russian, so there's that.

    (The White Russian was a drink, not a large albino from Moscow.)

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  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    the problem with jeffe's analogy is that negative temperatures are immoral and winter is evil

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Girl gonna go around a place like this wearin some tiny skirt like, she gonna get what's comin to her.

    And by "a place like this" I mean the antarctic circle, and by "what's comin to her" I mean hypothermia.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    the problem with jeffe's analogy is that negative temperatures are immoral and winter is evil

    I suppose in the GOP's defense, they are trying to eliminate this problem.

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    Loose: about to slip, to release (Ex: "That knot is loose." "Loose arrows.")
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Just to be clear, Psyck0 is talking about how doctors talk to their patients about embryonic development as in "This should be developed by x weeks" and "that will be happening at y weeks" it isn't supposed to be a precise measurement. That is a 40 week thing The more precise stuff is the other scale that he was talking about, that is a 38 week period of time.

    Yeah...

    It's just odd that when persons read this, the first thought was that this bill is discussing Schrodinger's fetus. And then he came in and said that all doctors talk in terms of Schrodinger's fetus.

    That's a very odd thing for doctors to do.

    It's not odd, it's just convention. It only becomes crazy-pants when you try to use it to define when life begins. It's like having a temperature scale that extends to below zero. That's perfectly fine until some dumbshit decides it's immoral to have negative heat based on his complete butchering of physical law and labels Antarctica some sort of thermodynamic Gomorrah.

    I figured it would be Soddom instead, because Antartica spends all it's time on the wrong of the centre-line.

    Also cause there's penguins involved.

  • EgoEgo Registered User regular
    The other day I was thinking to myself that men shouldn't pass laws that only effect women. You know, the whole concept of no representation.

    I guess I forgot there are some crazy damn females in politics. This just blew my mind.

    It's really weird isn't it? I guess it's the same as a latino person voting Republican. The party has an extremely clear anti-women anti-latino agenda and yet still hasn't lost total support from either demographic

    It's basically like the southern strategy. Exploit one aspect of ideology that people feel strongly about and you can get support from them for legislation that has a real negative impact against them.

    With the southern strategy the GOP exploited racism, with Latinos they basically exploit religious conviction.

    Erik
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