Roommate Issue

Sir Red of the Manti

Today my girlfriend and I happened to be abruptly woken from a nap at around 11am by our roommate who decided to practice the trombone in his room, which is next to ours. I very loudly knocked on his door and exclaimed "enough" as this practice had gone on for quite some time today, to which he opened his door, disagreed with the way and time that I happened to interrupt his practice, then pulled the sock out of his instrument to show me how loud it could be and proceeded to play the instrument at me at full volume. We are in Ontario, and this roommate happens to be subletting a room in the apartment that my girlfriend and I are renting without a written agreement aside from a paper stating that he has paid first and last month's rent. As well, he is currently on his last month of living with us, and has ten days to move out as it stands for the moment. Given the rude nature of this roommate's actions, I wish to evict him immediately. He has stated that if we attempt to do this, he will call for legal action. I do not wish to start a legal battle with this person as I do not have the financial means to be able to call for a lawyer to defend us even if we are in the right. What are my options here, aside from letting this person ruin the comfort of my home for ten days?

Heir

No offense, but you seem to be overreacting. As a person who has to practice his instrument in an apartment, I'm always super self conscious of practicing and annoying others, but doing so during the middle of the day shouldn't be a big deal.

With that said, perhaps talk to him about times of the day that are acceptable to practice? 11am seems like a perfectly fine time to practice personally, but I can understand being annoyed if you were taking a nap.

Kyougu

You're pretty much boned.

My advice would be to apologize to him (even if you think you're right) and be as civil and cordial as possible for the remaining 10 days. Doing so will just save you tons of headaches and problems.

naporeon

I don't know about Canadian law, but where I live at least, you would not be able to evict him that quickly. This is assuming that you even have a legal footing to evict, which you almost certainly would not in most areas I'm familiar with.

Also, 11am? This seems like a completely reasonable time of day to be practicing a musical instrument, especially muted. Honestly, it sounds like you are just as much to blame here as he is, if not more. My advice would be to suck it up, act like an adult (even if he isn't), and be happy that you have less than two weeks until he leaves.

histronic

It sounds to me like you are overreacting here. Practicing an instrument at 11 a.m. is not a big deal at all; I can see you being annoyed due to the fact that you were trying to take a nap but saying "enough" isn't really the appropriate way to handle it. Next time politely ask him to play at a different time because you are trying to take a nap.

Deebaser

10 days?
suck it up.

admanb

Unless your local tenancy laws are borderline fascist there is absolutely no way you will be able to evict him immediately.

schuss

Also, have you discussed practice vs. how much it bothers you before? Or when would be a good time to play?

Sounds to me like you're just overreacting and are being a dick about it.

LadyM

Well, in the future you should probably try saying something like "I'm trying to take a nap right now, would you mind practicing at [other time] instead?", because there's nothing inherently crazy about practicing an instrument at 11 AM.

I doubt there is any way to immediately evict him.

Sir Red of the Manti

A little more background, I work a night shift on a two week rotation and he is more than aware of this. It may be a reasonable time of day if I followed the typical 9 to 5, but in this case I am currently on nights and 11am happens to cut into my 8 hours of sleep. This person also has not played any other instrument except acoustic guitar and the spoons in the months that he has lived with us until today, and given what I've heard of his trombone playing he is not very skilled with the instrument.

Kyougu

Probably why he's practicing.

Again, you overreacted. It's understandable, he had woken you up. Just apologize, tell him that you overeacted and suck it up for the next ten days.

You have no grounds to evict and do you really want to deal with the hassle of having an antagonistic roomate?

Figgy

Sir Red of the Manti wrote: »

A little more background, I work a night shift on a two week rotation and he is more than aware of this. It may be a reasonable time of day if I followed the typical 9 to 5, but in this case I am currently on nights and 11am happens to cut into my 8 hours of sleep. This person also has not played any other instrument except acoustic guitar and the spoons in the months that he has lived with us until today, and given what I've heard of his trombone playing he is not very skilled with the instrument.

Either way, you're not going to be able to evict him. Progressing this argument with him further could even result in him looking into tenant law in Ontario and discovering he doesn't necessarily have to move out at the end of his 10 days. Play nice.

amateurhour

Dude, it's 10 more days, as others have said, suck it up and deal with it. There's LITERALLY nothing you can do to kick him out of the apartment tomorrow for playing the trombone during daytime hours. At all.

You WERE rude in the way you interrupted his practice, extremely so, and I wouldn't fault him for his reaction back to you.

Were you even the one's who sublet the room or was it your landlord?

edit: also what Figgy said. You could piss this guy off and he might not have a new place lined up and just decide to keep renting the room from the landlord, unless you own the apartment.

Sir Red of the Manti

We are currently the ones subletting the room. We are renting from our landlord on a month to month basis without a lease, and this roommate is renting the room from us in an identical manner.

bowen

Next time get shit like subletting length written ahead of time or else you could get fucked if a sublease decides to fuck you because they know their rights and the law.

Figgy

amateurhour wrote: »

Were you even the one's who sublet the room or was it your landlord?

If it's actually a "sublet" it will be through him as the tenant. If it were through the landlord, he'd be "renting."

Sir Red of the Manti wrote: »

We are currently the ones subletting the room. We are renting from our landlord on a month to month basis without a lease, and this roommate is renting the room from us in an identical manner.

No matter what the situation is, you can't just call the police and have someone kicked out the day their lease ends. You have to file paperwork, pay fees, and attend a hearing in order to evict an overholding subtenant. This is all made more complicated by the fact that you have no clear lease with this person, and your landlord did not approve the sublet (I'm assuming, or you'd have a proper lease).

Sir Red of the Manti

The sublet has been approved by the landlord.

Figgy

Sir Red of the Manti wrote: »

The sublet has been approved by the landlord.

That's good at least. It's still not properly documented with paper work though, and it's going to make getting him out all the more difficult. Even with proper paperwork, you are looking at a hearing to get him out. You think putting up with him for 10 days is going to be tough? Try another month on top of that. And he's going to be even less "cordial" when he knows you're filing action against him.

If I were you, I'd apologize to him for the way you reacted to his playing. Say, "You woke me up and my natural reaction was to be a grumpy dick. Sorry about that, 11 AM isn't an odd time to practice your music." Doesn't matter if you don't feel that way, make him happy. You want him to go peacefully in 10 days.

Thanatos

Most of the people in here don't know what they're talking about in terms of tenancy laws.

Depending on the laws of your location, people renting a room in a house you are living in are frequently not considered tenants, but boarders. Boarders do not have anywhere near the same protection as tenants. As in, in some places, you can tell them to get the fuck out of your house by tomorrow, and they have to get the fuck out of your house by tomorrow.

That being said, your best option is probably just to suck it up.

Figgy

Thanatos wrote: »

Most of the people in here don't know what they're talking about in terms of tenancy laws.

Depending on the laws of your location, people renting a room in a house you are living in are frequently not considered tenants, but boarders. Boarders do not have anywhere near the same protection as tenants. As in, in some places, you can tell them to get the fuck out of your house by tomorrow, and they have to get the fuck out of your house by tomorrow.

That being said, your best option is probably just to suck it up.

I also live in Ontario. And I do know what I'm talking about.

GnomeTank

If my roommate came in to my room while I was doing something at a completely reasonable time and said "Enough" to me like I was thirteen, I would have the same reaction yours had. Taking exactly ten more seconds and getting out a complete thought like "Hey man, you know I worked last night and I'm really trying to sleep, can you please practice the trombone a little later?" would have gone over quite a bit better.

Also, the fact that you want to evict someone who is leaving in ten days anyway because they had the audacity to play a muffled instrument at a completely sane time is pretty telling. Perhaps you shouldn't have roommates anymore after this one. Part of having a roommate is learning to occasionally put up with things that annoy you. It's no different than living with any other adult. If you have such a special schedule, then perhaps roommates just aren't for you.

And who cares if he's "never played the trombone" before? If the guy already plays guitar and spoons, maybe he just really likes music and is branching out. The fact that he was trying to muffle the sound shows he wasn't doing it just to annoy you, but that seems to be the stance you are taking. That he was doing this just to annoy you.

Sir Red of the Manti

I will definitely not be having a roommate after this for sure. I won't attempt to tell a tale that justifies my actions, but what I can say is that however reasonable it was, this was the straw that broke the camel's back when it came to my tolerance of his shenanigans.

GnomeTank

Fair enough. Given what limited information you seem willing to give us about his past transgression, and the tone of your first post, I hope you can understand how some of us are a bit salty about your response. Given what little information we have, it looks like you're being a dick...but I think all of us would also admit we don't know the whole story.

Lanchester

Sir Red of the Manti wrote: »

I will definitely not be having a roommate after this for sure. I won't attempt to tell a tale that justifies my actions, but what I can say is that however reasonable it was, this was the straw that broke the camel's back when it came to my tolerance of his shenanigans.

I kinda got a feeling from reading your OP that there was something else going on. You seem way too pissed off and short tempered about his actions...

Bottom line - I think you're screwed and you'll just have to wait. You don't have him on the lease, but since there is a piece of paper saying he's paid the first and last months rent, you'll have to wait until the month is over. If you really want to try and screw this person over and kick him out, by the time the legal side of things get done it will probably be close to the 10 days they have left (if not passed 10 days).

Figgy

Would you be up for getting involved with his house hunting to ensure he's out in 10 days? Does he have another place lined up? How is he getting his shit outta your place?

Teslan26

The trouble with you working the nightshift is that you have to ask yourself whether that gives you license to dictate the hours someone else keeps. Trombone playing, music listening, movie watching, running around the house, talking loudly with friends are a few of the many things that would drive me fucking nuts if I was trying to sleep.

But, you know, you sleep during the day when a reasonable person would expect to be able to use their residence for all those things. Should his life go on hold because of your nocturnal schedule?

If you've managed to properly piss him off you could be stuck with an impossible room mate for over a month whilst going through eviction proceedings. Make peace, and make a plan.

histronic

Sir Red of the Manti wrote: »

I will definitely not be having a roommate after this for sure. I won't attempt to tell a tale that justifies my actions, but what I can say is that however reasonable it was, this was the straw that broke the camel's back when it came to my tolerance of his shenanigans.

This was going to be my next piece of advice. It sounds like you are better off living by yourself if you can't handle other people's habits; I've had roommates wake me up at 3 a.m. with loud rap music and a party in my living room on a Wednesday when I had work at 8 the next morning and we still found a cordial way to resolve things. There are far worse things roommates can do than practice an instrument at 11 a.m.

Nylonathetep

1) I think you are over-reacting a bit.

2) I don't know much about Ontario's law regarding Tenant and rental, but from what I understand you cannot get an immediate eviction. Ontario's Law heavily favour the tenant in this regard. In fact there has been cases where the Tenant hasn't been paid rent but the Landlord is still having trouble evicting him. (You need 3 months before you can file a complain to the court for eviction notice, wait at least a Month for the court to respond, and then wait a few months to get the paper work done to evict him.)

3) I think much of this is in a grey area because a) You are not in a typical landlord/Tenant relationship because you are subletting, and b) there really wasn't a Tenant agreement drafted and signed. Especially there's nothing written about noise level, or any clause that would give you grounds to evict him. (The case would be slightly different if there's any verbal agreement that was reach regarding the acceptable noise level.) This would all roll back to the Ontario Landlord and Tenant Act or related articles of law. In this case since it's 11 am in the morning and not 11 pm at night, he didn't do anything wrong regarding noise level.

Here's a Link regarding Eviction from the Ontario landlord and Tenant Act

http://www.ontariotenants.ca/law/law.phtml#Q9

Phyphor

Figgy wrote: »

Thanatos wrote: »

Most of the people in here don't know what they're talking about in terms of tenancy laws.

Depending on the laws of your location, people renting a room in a house you are living in are frequently not considered tenants, but boarders. Boarders do not have anywhere near the same protection as tenants. As in, in some places, you can tell them to get the fuck out of your house by tomorrow, and they have to get the fuck out of your house by tomorrow.

That being said, your best option is probably just to suck it up.

I also live in Ontario. And I do know what I'm talking about.

Yup. The specific section of the act dealing with sublets: http://www.ontariotenants.ca/law/act06.phtml#RTA97

He's covered by and enjoys the protections as a normal tenant would; unless he breaches the act or sublet agreement, you can't actually kick him out at all, especially since this is a landlord-approved sublet

Blake T

Gandalfing him by just yelling, enough is petty and only works against fire demons.

If you want someone to stop doing something you need to tell them why, and give them an alternative. Ie. I am in night shift, and in the future please play loud instruments such as this one after five pm.

Sir Red of the Manti

For a bit of background, this is a guy who cooks curry and leaves onion on our counters knowing that my girlfriend reacts badly to it allergy-wise, has not paid for household consumables such as toilet paper or soap, has made a complete mess of our kitchen on numerous occasions, and practices his guitar only when my girlfriend happens to be home as he knows it irritates her. We have attempted civil discourse on these matters on several occasions with no lasting success, and he has for whatever reason held a grudge against my girlfriend as a result which manifests in these passive aggressive shenanigans. Today, this accumulated to him borrowing a trombone and timing his practice to the exact moment she attempted to go to bed after a long night which just so happened to coincide with my known sleeping schedule this morning. Was I right in my approach, likely not. Is he justified to disregard any decency and respect to us in our home simply because it's in normal hours? Probably. Am I still pissed despite being completely in the wrong, yep.

Figgy

Sir Red of the Manti wrote: »

For a bit of background, this is a guy who cooks curry and leaves onion on our counters knowing that my girlfriend reacts badly to it allergy-wise, has not paid for household consumables such as toilet paper or soap, has made a complete mess of our kitchen on numerous occasions, and practices his guitar only when my girlfriend happens to be home as he knows it irritates her. We have attempted civil discourse on these matters on several occasions with no lasting success, and he has for whatever reason held a grudge against my girlfriend as a result which manifests in these passive aggressive shenanigans. Today, this accumulated to him borrowing a trombone and timing his practice to the exact moment she attempted to go to bed after a long night which just so happened to coincide with my known sleeping schedule this morning. Was I right in my approach, likely not. Is he justified to disregard any decency and respect to us in our home simply because it's in normal hours? Probably. Am I still pissed despite being completely in the wrong, yep.

Can he sit tight and make your life a living hell for the next 30-60 days while you struggle through Ontario Tribunal hearings? Yep.

Seriously. Swallow your pride and do what needs to be done to get rid of this goose. No one is saying he's a peach, but you're making things harder on yourself for no reason at all.

Skeith

You pretty much have to stick it out. Only thing you *could* do would be to ask your girlfriend to couch surf for a week and a half if she's what sets him off, and that isn't reasonable at all.

Eat it You Nasty Pig.

It's very difficult to evict somebody immediately. Law in most places stipulates 30 days because that keeps people from becoming homeless. It does not sound like you have the kind of fly-by-night arrangement that might enable you to evict him easily on short notice; you have documentation, the landlord has documentation, etc.

Regardless of how you personally feel about it, practicing an instrument is reasonable activity during the middle of the day and certainly isn't grounds for eviction. Neither is leaving onions on the counter (seriously?)

He has his 30 day notice and it's almost up. If your goal is to have him out of the space as soon as possible, your best bet is to just wait out the 30 days.

Brainiac 8

You definitely over-reacted to his practicing. Even if he's being a jerk, just wait it out the last several days and you'll be done with him.

Try investing in a set of ear plugs. They have nice foam plugs that will make it so noise like this can never bother you while you catch up on your sleep.

Here you go:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Flents-Quiet-Contour-Foam-Ear-Plugs-80ct/17324932

Dr. Frenchenstein

is he definitely moving out, or has he just not paid the next month's rent yet? in the states, if nothing is done after a lease period is over you are on something called an "implied lease" which means the landlord (you in a sublet situation) has to give written/documented (like certified mail or something) proof that their lease is up, and not being renewed. They have 30 days to leave. if they don't, you have entered the awesome world of eviction, which could take like 3 months. and oftentimes(i think... all the times) you don't get any rent payments during that time. just suck it up, and make sure he's actually leaving when 10 days are up. i'm sure this guy has annoyed you and you are ready for him to leave, but just because you are on the lease and he isn't doesn't mean you get to throw his shit on the lawn because you can't stand him anymore.

Nova_C

Brainiac 8 wrote: »

You definitely over-reacted to his practicing. Even if he's being a jerk, just wait it out the last several days and you'll be done with him.

Try investing in a set of ear plugs. They have nice foam plugs that will make it so noise like this can never bother you while you catch up on your sleep.

Just so I understand you - people who work night shifts should expect to not be able to sleep a healthy amount because it's unreasonable to expect someone to not play a loud brass instrument at a known sleep time?

People who work nights are people, too, you know.

Sir Red of the Manti

As it turns out, the noise by-law in the town I live in applies 24 hours a day and covers this sort of thing. It's not eviction worthy, but it's a $50 to $1000 fine if he attempts that nonsense again. Also I'm not worried about him sticking around as subtennants do not have a right to overhold in Ontario, and the shred of documentation that we do have defines the length of the lease.

Figgy

Sir Red of the Manti wrote: »

As it turns out, the noise by-law in the town I live in applies 24 hours a day and covers this sort of thing. It's not eviction worthy, but it's a $50 to $1000 fine if he attempts that nonsense again. Also I'm not worried about him sticking around as subtennants do not have a right to overhold in Ontario, and the shred of documentation that we do have defines the length of the lease.

You're not thinking this through.

You're right. Subtenants do not have the "right" to overhold, because the term "overholding subtenant" means they are staying illegally past their agreed subtenancy. No one has the "right" any more than they would have the "right" to take a shit on the sidewalk. There are just procedures and consequences involved after the fact. If he stays past his move-out date, you need to attend a hearing to evict him. You can't just call the cops and have him booted out.

101. (1) If a subtenant continues to occupy a rental unit after the end of the subtenancy, the landlord or the tenant may apply to the Board for an order evicting the subtenant. 2006, c. 17, s.101 (1).

Call this number and ask what happens when a subtenant stays past their subtenancy. What can you do about it? 1-888-332-3234 Also make sure to mention you have no actual lease. Just a receipt for first and last month's rent.

And your plan is to try to have him fined if he "attempts that nonsense again?"

You really, really, really need to live on your own.

Edit: I could also be wrong, but you might have to give him 30 days notice to leave, too. Technically.

Deebaser

Sir Red of the Manti wrote: »

As it turns out, the noise by-law in the town I live in applies 24 hours a day and covers this sort of thing. It's not eviction worthy, but it's a $50 to $1000 fine if he attempts that nonsense again.

And you're sure he's the unreasonable one? You're proposing a lot of middle school solutions here and getting awfully worked up over imaginary slights.

T. J. Nutty Nub

Figgy wrote: »

Sir Red of the Manti wrote: »

As it turns out, the noise by-law in the town I live in applies 24 hours a day and covers this sort of thing. It's not eviction worthy, but it's a $50 to $1000 fine if he attempts that nonsense again. Also I'm not worried about him sticking around as subtennants do not have a right to overhold in Ontario, and the shred of documentation that we do have defines the length of the lease.

You're not thinking this through.

You're right. Subtenants do not have the "right" to overhold, because the term "overholding subtenant" means they are staying illegally past their agreed subtenancy. No one has the "right" any more than they would have the "right" to take a shit on the sidewalk. There are just procedures and consequences involved after the fact. If he stays past his move-out date, you need to attend a hearing to evict him. You can't just call the cops and have him booted out.

101. (1) If a subtenant continues to occupy a rental unit after the end of the subtenancy, the landlord or the tenant may apply to the Board for an order evicting the subtenant. 2006, c. 17, s.101 (1).

Call this number and ask what happens when a subtenant stays past their subtenancy. What can you do about it? 1-888-332-3234 Also make sure to mention you have no actual lease. Just a receipt for first and last month's rent.

And your plan is to try to have him fined if he "attempts that nonsense again?"

You really, really, really need to live on your own.

Edit: I could also be wrong, but you might have to give him 30 days notice to leave, too. Technically.

^This

It is a really bad idea to try and escalate at this point given he can still screw you over regardless of what the law says.

In all likelihood he probably just wants to annoy you as much as he can until he leaves. You really should just apologize and wait it out.