we have regularly seen benders menacing non-benders
it is a recurring theme on the show
we have very rarely seen the opposite
most of these examples are Equalist-related, who menace benders plenty
the only one I can remember that isn't is the Triads hassling that shopkeeper, but that's just good old fashioned gangs abusing the weak and nothing specific to benders
Also the 100 year long war with the fire nation that resulted in the extinction of one civilization and the near extinction of another would have never happened if bending weren't a thing
it would have happened with swords and cannons instead
The only reason the war broke out was because sozin's comet supercharged the firebenders
Ain't no comet that supercharges swords
comet didn't last the whole war
gave a pretty fantastic boost at the beginning but if Sozin wanted to start a war he would have started a war
we have regularly seen benders menacing non-benders
it is a recurring theme on the show
we have very rarely seen the opposite
most of these examples are Equalist-related, who menace benders plenty
the only one I can remember that isn't is the Triads hassling that shopkeeper, but that's just good old fashioned gangs abusing the weak and nothing specific to benders
Also the 100 year long war with the fire nation that resulted in the extinction of one civilization and the near extinction of another would have never happened if bending weren't a thing
it would have happened with swords and cannons instead
The only reason the war broke out was because sozin's comet supercharged the firebenders
Ain't no comet that supercharges swords
comet didn't last the whole war
gave a pretty fantastic boost at the beginning but if Sozin wanted to start a war he would have started a war
it gave them the boost to exterminate an entire people with the exception of the one who happened to be frozen underwater
we have regularly seen benders menacing non-benders
it is a recurring theme on the show
we have very rarely seen the opposite
most of these examples are Equalist-related, who menace benders plenty
the only one I can remember that isn't is the Triads hassling that shopkeeper, but that's just good old fashioned gangs abusing the weak and nothing specific to benders
Also the 100 year long war with the fire nation that resulted in the extinction of one civilization and the near extinction of another would have never happened if bending weren't a thing
it would have happened with swords and cannons instead
The only reason the war broke out was because sozin's comet supercharged the firebenders
Ain't no comet that supercharges swords
comet didn't last the whole war
gave a pretty fantastic boost at the beginning but if Sozin wanted to start a war he would have started a war
it gave them the boost to exterminate an entire people with the exception of the one who happened to be frozen underwater
3 vs. 1 is just another way for criminals to unbalance the odds, which has nothing to do with bending
3 young non-benders vs. 1 old bender wouldn't go so smooth either
'cause the old guy would kick their asses. Bumi, Iroh...heck, anyone from the White Lotus.
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Not entirely, but while we see some old guys (non-benders) act pretty patheticly (and some who don't. Like Sword guy) the same never applies to Old benders. All of them kick ass. No exceptions.
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
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SwissLionWe are beside ourselves!Registered Userregular
The proposition that having superpowers in no way affects the balance of societal privilege and power is so absurd that I am pretty sure Tal is being intentionally obtuse for his own amusement.
we have regularly seen benders menacing non-benders
it is a recurring theme on the show
we have very rarely seen the opposite
most of these examples are Equalist-related, who menace benders plenty
the only one I can remember that isn't is the Triads hassling that shopkeeper, but that's just good old fashioned gangs abusing the weak and nothing specific to benders
Also the 100 year long war with the fire nation that resulted in the extinction of one civilization and the near extinction of another would have never happened if bending weren't a thing
it would have happened with swords and cannons instead
The only reason the war broke out was because sozin's comet supercharged the firebenders
Ain't no comet that supercharges swords
comet didn't last the whole war
gave a pretty fantastic boost at the beginning but if Sozin wanted to start a war he would have started a war
it gave them the boost to exterminate an entire people with the exception of the one who happened to be frozen underwater
the whole genocide did not take place in one day
why not
the entire airbender population was centralized in three locations and were taken by complete surprise by a coordinated attack of what was essentially the firebombing of dresden in human form
the entire airbender population was centralized in three locations and were taken by complete surprise by a coordinated attack of what was essentially the firebombing of dresden in human form
because it is stated that is not the case
the Comet allowed them to make a powerful first strike on the Air Nomads, but many escaped (because evasion is their thing) and they had to hunt them all down
but really this point is silly because the nations would be radically different without bending in their history. I'm just saying that stopping bending won't stop wars.
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BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
...THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, EXCEPT FOR THE ONES WHO CAN SHOOT FIRE OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS AND LIGHTNING FROM THEIR FINGERS AND FLY AROUND IN THE AIR ON ROCKET FEET.
...THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, EXCEPT FOR THE ONES WHO CAN SHOOT FIRE OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS AND LIGHTNING FROM THEIR FINGERS AND FLY AROUND IN THE AIR ON ROCKET FEET.
what you're saying here is kill all firebenders
ain't never heard anybody complain about waterbenders killing their family
...THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, EXCEPT FOR THE ONES WHO CAN SHOOT FIRE OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS AND LIGHTNING FROM THEIR FINGERS AND FLY AROUND IN THE AIR ON ROCKET FEET.
what you're saying here is kill all firebenders
ain't never heard anybody complain about waterbenders killing their family
one time I was eating a snocone
a waterbender used his bending to spill the snocone
waterbenders are not innocent
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BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
TrippyJingMoses supposes his toeses are roses.But Moses supposes erroneously.Registered Userregular
Do we even know what the Southern Water Tribe would've been like had the Fire Nation not systematically wiped out all their waterbenders save Katara? I don't think you should be using it as an example of nonbender "prosperity".
See, this is why I want Korra to basically make a new elected council that actually represents Republic city. Because that would be beating Amon at his own game.
Its a good thing that democracy never results in the election of demagogs! Amon for Reichskanzler!
You need to address the underlying issues as well; democracy lets a healthy society choose what it wants to do, unhealthy societies with democracy will just choose unhealthy things.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
edited May 2012
I could see what Tal is saying. If Amon were teaching chi bending to everyone in a peaceful, self defense sort of way it would be a pretty solid deterrent against benders. Many of the equalist chi blockers are able to fight toe to toe with powerful benders, and just the though that the random shlub on the street might be packing some chi blocking moves might be enough to keep some predatory benders from being jerks.
That said, the ability to turn someone normal isn't at all equal with the ability to turn someone into ashes.
I always thought of benders as the "embodiment of X lifestyle" rather than superheroes. The scene from the Fortune Teller's village with the twins digging a protective trench, one with a shovel the other with earth bending, treats them on equal footing. The bending twin has the ability to do more, certainly, but he isn't regarded as better or more important than the other twin. Benders just seem to be closer to the teachings and personalities given to each country.
See, this is why I want Korra to basically make a new elected council that actually represents Republic city. Because that would be beating Amon at his own game.
Its a good thing that democracy never results in the election of demagogs! Amon for Reichskanzler!
You need to address the underlying issues as well; democracy lets a healthy society choose what it wants to do, unhealthy societies with democracy will just choose unhealthy things.
See, this is why I want Korra to basically make a new elected council that actually represents Republic city. Because that would be beating Amon at his own game.
Its a good thing that democracy never results in the election of demagogs! Amon for Reichskanzler!
You need to address the underlying issues as well; democracy lets a healthy society choose what it wants to do, unhealthy societies with democracy will just choose unhealthy things.
so Dis, who would you choose? democratically-elected Salvador Allende or CIA-supported Augusto Pinochet?
What the heck? I never said democracy was bad you silly goose, democracy is awesome and should always be encouraged and respected. Its just not going to solve the underlying problems on its own.
also democracy is not something bestowed on "healthy" societies. democracy is a learning process. democracy is an education which leads to more freedom/healthier society.
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BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
See, this is why I want Korra to basically make a new elected council that actually represents Republic city. Because that would be beating Amon at his own game.
Its a good thing that democracy never results in the election of demagogs! Amon for Reichskanzler!
You need to address the underlying issues as well; democracy lets a healthy society choose what it wants to do, unhealthy societies with democracy will just choose unhealthy things.
so Dis, who would you choose? democratically-elected Salvador Allende or CIA-supported Augusto Pinochet?
What the heck? I never said democracy was bad you silly goose, democracy is awesome and should always be encouraged and respected. Its just not going to solve the underlying problems on its own.
so what you're saying is it's hitler babies or abortion by ovens with you i get it
that's only because the bending twin was an amateur
no matter how good he gets with that shovel he will never be able to move earth like a skilled earthbender
which his brother will one day be
and he'll just be there with his shovel
Yeah, I'm not saying the bending brother wasn't more powerful, I'm just saying that in the context of the village he was considered equal to the others. In the original show bending was just something that some people had and others didn't, they made a pretty solid point about them being on equal footing in society in season one.
Season two brought in the "Three on Three plus Sokka" benders are better problem, then immediately destroyed it as two of the three constantly putting the heroes on the defensive never used bending at all, just knives and chi blocking. Even in the fire nation you see that engineers and foot-soldiers are often as important (if not more so) than other operatives (such as the Rough Rhinos, all but one of which are non-benders) along with the Yu-Yan archers. In season three we see folks like Suki, Sokka, his master, the southern water tribe warriors (among others) and the engineer/inventor guy being as crucial to the war effort as benders as well.
Looking at the rulers and leaders, only the Fire Lord, the Dai Li and King Boomie were bending rulers, all three of which were so to present an authority equals ass-kicking rival for Aang's character growth. The rest of the authority figures are notably not benders (Earth King and his generals, North and South Water Tribes, Kiyoshi Warrior Village Elder (and pretty much every village elder they come across, many of the Fire Nation captains including the War Minister, the Inventor and his folk, The Bei Fong Family, the ruler of Chen the Magnificent's terrible village, etc.).
Benders are definitely more powerful innately, but before Korra they were just folk like anyone else. Folk with mighty skills. And anyone in the show with a mighty skill or mastery was shown as being powerful in their own right, while benders without discipline or skill are often simple mooks.
I'm not certain Amon's platform would have a voice anywhere but Republic City, from the context of the first show I would say probably not. Benders are something that exist, but it also seemed like they were no more in control than anyone else and, one could argue, more likely to be forced into conscription as almost every bender in the first show was either a soldier or a war prisoner, murdered, imprisoned, or on the run from bender soldiers.
See, this is why I want Korra to basically make a new elected council that actually represents Republic city. Because that would be beating Amon at his own game.
Its a good thing that democracy never results in the election of demagogs! Amon for Reichskanzler!
You need to address the underlying issues as well; democracy lets a healthy society choose what it wants to do, unhealthy societies with democracy will just choose unhealthy things.
so Dis, who would you choose? democratically-elected Salvador Allende or CIA-supported Augusto Pinochet?
What the heck? I never said democracy was bad you silly goose, democracy is awesome and should always be encouraged and respected. Its just not going to solve the underlying problems on its own.
my bad, man. itchy trigger finger.
well, it's good to know that you're not some kind of fascist.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
Where do use pro-monarchists sign up in this thread? Because I need some feudalism in my life in order to know my place.
Which is, of course, at the top.
Of the barrels of piss along with the other tanners and renderers.
See, this is why I want Korra to basically make a new elected council that actually represents Republic city. Because that would be beating Amon at his own game.
Its a good thing that democracy never results in the election of demagogs! Amon for Reichskanzler!
You need to address the underlying issues as well; democracy lets a healthy society choose what it wants to do, unhealthy societies with democracy will just choose unhealthy things.
so Dis, who would you choose? democratically-elected Salvador Allende or CIA-supported Augusto Pinochet?
What the heck? I never said democracy was bad you silly goose, democracy is awesome and should always be encouraged and respected. Its just not going to solve the underlying problems on its own.
my bad, man. itchy trigger finger.
well, it's good to know that you're not some kind of fascist.
Hah, great.
Its is an issue that we have several examples of where a society divided between a powerful minority and a less powerful majority becoming more democratic (where the majority now can use the power of their numbers via the voting process) has lead some very very bad places when either the minority fights back or the majority punish their former superiors too hard: see Rwanda, the opening of the French Revolution, etc.
Luckily that kind of bad place probably won't be explored in a kids show.
Dis' on
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
Yeah, you may be turning yer fancy powered noses at the smell that follows me around. But look, someone has to supply the leather and tanned hides for this city. Ain't no shame in that.
And where do ya think all that lant comes from in your beer and washroom? Ain't some magic alchemical compound. It's piss, man. Pure, refined piss.
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Quoththe RavenMiami, FL FOR REALRegistered Userregular
Why are we continuing to analyze the role of benders in a society that existed 70 years prior to the show we are talking about, except to show that things used to be a certain way
Why are we continuing to analyze the role of benders in a society that existed 70 years prior to the show we are talking about, except to show that things used to be a certain way
They may have changed, you know
Fair enough, and if I had to place money, 12 to 7 they'll show it soon enough.
But, as odd as it is to say, Tal's sorta right. They haven't shown it much yet, and Amon's about as bad a source as you can get.
Again, I disagree on if the council's benders (figure the whole bunch is), and some other things. But he's right there hasn't been that much oppression shown so far, and Amon's already aimed at fanatic at best.
Quoththe RavenMiami, FL FOR REALRegistered Userregular
I dig that they haven't shown much actual oppression, but again, given the crowd at the rally I think we are meant to draw the conclusion that it exists
I could be totally wrong, as this is certainly a sophisticated enough show to go the other route, but I feel like people are creating conspiracy theories that aren't really supported, either
Posts
comet didn't last the whole war
gave a pretty fantastic boost at the beginning but if Sozin wanted to start a war he would have started a war
it gave them the boost to exterminate an entire people with the exception of the one who happened to be frozen underwater
the point is that non-benders are not the defenseless victims Amon makes them out to be
criminals will always prey on the weak, if the shopkeeper had been a young physically fit man that situation would have gone differently
if Amon was simply interested in passing more self-defense techniques to people then :^:
this is what you're positing
3 vs. 1 is just another way for criminals to unbalance the odds, which has nothing to do with bending
3 young non-benders vs. 1 old bender wouldn't go so smooth either
the reason he was alone is because the rest of the street was terrified of their magical abilities
the whole genocide did not take place in one day
'cause the old guy would kick their asses. Bumi, Iroh...heck, anyone from the White Lotus.
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
that shit is known
exceptionally trained outliers :whistle:
nope
see, it doesn't work both ways, because bending is the advantage
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
why not
the entire airbender population was centralized in three locations and were taken by complete surprise by a coordinated attack of what was essentially the firebombing of dresden in human form
even when outnumbered a bender won't lose to a bunch of non-benders, except when a group of chi-blockers overpowers the avatar
also benders have societal privilege and power except for all the ones that don't
and all the non-benders in position of privilege and power are just rare exceptions
because it is stated that is not the case
the Comet allowed them to make a powerful first strike on the Air Nomads, but many escaped (because evasion is their thing) and they had to hunt them all down
but really this point is silly because the nations would be radically different without bending in their history. I'm just saying that stopping bending won't stop wars.
what you're saying here is kill all firebenders
ain't never heard anybody complain about waterbenders killing their family
yep!
one time I was eating a snocone
a waterbender used his bending to spill the snocone
waterbenders are not innocent
that's a waterbender oppressing you
Its a good thing that democracy never results in the election of demagogs! Amon for Reichskanzler!
You need to address the underlying issues as well; democracy lets a healthy society choose what it wants to do, unhealthy societies with democracy will just choose unhealthy things.
That said, the ability to turn someone normal isn't at all equal with the ability to turn someone into ashes.
I always thought of benders as the "embodiment of X lifestyle" rather than superheroes. The scene from the Fortune Teller's village with the twins digging a protective trench, one with a shovel the other with earth bending, treats them on equal footing. The bending twin has the ability to do more, certainly, but he isn't regarded as better or more important than the other twin. Benders just seem to be closer to the teachings and personalities given to each country.
no matter how good he gets with that shovel he will never be able to move earth like a skilled earthbender
which his brother will one day be
and he'll just be there with his shovel
imperialist mentality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'état
which led to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet
so Dis, who would you choose? democratically-elected Salvador Allende or CIA-supported Augusto Pinochet?
What the heck? I never said democracy was bad you silly goose, democracy is awesome and should always be encouraged and respected. Its just not going to solve the underlying problems on its own.
God gave me a gift. I shovel well. I shovel very well.
so what you're saying is it's hitler babies or abortion by ovens with you i get it
Yeah, I'm not saying the bending brother wasn't more powerful, I'm just saying that in the context of the village he was considered equal to the others. In the original show bending was just something that some people had and others didn't, they made a pretty solid point about them being on equal footing in society in season one.
Season two brought in the "Three on Three plus Sokka" benders are better problem, then immediately destroyed it as two of the three constantly putting the heroes on the defensive never used bending at all, just knives and chi blocking. Even in the fire nation you see that engineers and foot-soldiers are often as important (if not more so) than other operatives (such as the Rough Rhinos, all but one of which are non-benders) along with the Yu-Yan archers. In season three we see folks like Suki, Sokka, his master, the southern water tribe warriors (among others) and the engineer/inventor guy being as crucial to the war effort as benders as well.
Looking at the rulers and leaders, only the Fire Lord, the Dai Li and King Boomie were bending rulers, all three of which were so to present an authority equals ass-kicking rival for Aang's character growth. The rest of the authority figures are notably not benders (Earth King and his generals, North and South Water Tribes, Kiyoshi Warrior Village Elder (and pretty much every village elder they come across, many of the Fire Nation captains including the War Minister, the Inventor and his folk, The Bei Fong Family, the ruler of Chen the Magnificent's terrible village, etc.).
Benders are definitely more powerful innately, but before Korra they were just folk like anyone else. Folk with mighty skills. And anyone in the show with a mighty skill or mastery was shown as being powerful in their own right, while benders without discipline or skill are often simple mooks.
I'm not certain Amon's platform would have a voice anywhere but Republic City, from the context of the first show I would say probably not. Benders are something that exist, but it also seemed like they were no more in control than anyone else and, one could argue, more likely to be forced into conscription as almost every bender in the first show was either a soldier or a war prisoner, murdered, imprisoned, or on the run from bender soldiers.
my bad, man. itchy trigger finger.
well, it's good to know that you're not some kind of fascist.
Which is, of course, at the top.
Of the barrels of piss along with the other tanners and renderers.
Hah, great.
Its is an issue that we have several examples of where a society divided between a powerful minority and a less powerful majority becoming more democratic (where the majority now can use the power of their numbers via the voting process) has lead some very very bad places when either the minority fights back or the majority punish their former superiors too hard: see Rwanda, the opening of the French Revolution, etc.
Luckily that kind of bad place probably won't be explored in a kids show.
And where do ya think all that lant comes from in your beer and washroom? Ain't some magic alchemical compound. It's piss, man. Pure, refined piss.
They may have changed, you know
Tanning.
Tanning never changes.
Fair enough, and if I had to place money, 12 to 7 they'll show it soon enough.
But, as odd as it is to say, Tal's sorta right. They haven't shown it much yet, and Amon's about as bad a source as you can get.
Again, I disagree on if the council's benders (figure the whole bunch is), and some other things. But he's right there hasn't been that much oppression shown so far, and Amon's already aimed at fanatic at best.
Why I fear the ocean.
I could be totally wrong, as this is certainly a sophisticated enough show to go the other route, but I feel like people are creating conspiracy theories that aren't really supported, either