My main problem with the episode was that it killed off the only characters that had any interesting development. I understand it's The Walking Dead, and killing off characters is par for the course, but it's left me with no characters I'm attached to in Ep5, apart from Kenny.
Speaking of Kenny... the first moment that made my blood run cold was when you enter the tent after getting back with . The way he was sat with his back to the entrance, not moving, with a pool of blood in front of him made me think he'd offed himself for a few seconds. That shot had to be intentional.
The other moment was when the baby wasn't breathing. Good god, that would have been horrific, if the baby was stillborn.
I liked the fact that this episode finally let me look around places. First time since S2E1 that you get a chance to do that without a hidden time limit.
I will totally give them credit on this point. I actually felt a twinge of regret when
I went off to go find Bonnie and Mike and saw Sarah off to the side by the memorial and realized I could have gone to talk to her again but missed the opportunity since I had clicked through to leave the area.
About that...
Talking to her results in Clem saying hey and Sarah giving you a glance before looking back down at the floor. I don't think it affects anything.
Oh, and as an Englishman -
What the hell was the significance of the confederate jacket?
As a Canadian:
I think the Confederates were the ones that thought it was OK to own slaves, right?[/quote]
Really getting tired of my choices not making any difference whatsoever.
Saving Sarah (twice! I had to send someone to get her the second time walkers were coming and she was just hugging her knees; I could have sent him for water instead) was just not going to be something I had a choice about. The problem is, it was presented as maybe the second-or-third-most important choice in the episode! I don't mind being helpless to prevent an event from happening, but if the only difference is how idealistic or cynical Clementine is about the event, you're going to make me, the player more cynical about your writing!
Kenny was pissed I lopped off his girlfriend's arm. OK, fine. Wait, no, that's not fine, because in many, many situations, Kenny has been the one telling people that he knows what must be done hurts them, but they should just get over themselves and do it anyway. If what I did was so unforgivable, then killing Larry in Season 1 was infinitely more unforgivable. He didn't do that to save Larry, he did it to save himself and a couple other people! I did what I did specifically to try and save her life, and he knows it. Kinda wanted the option to punch Kenny in the (former) eyeball.
Luke continues to be the absolute worst this side of Ben. Boning while you have literally the most important job out of anybody else? I get it, she was asking for it -- and that's the part where you go, "Nope, maybe some other time when it might not result in people dying." I hope he dies in the hail of gunfire there at the end.
But he won't, because literally the only important scale in this season is the one that slides between Kenny and Luke. They've clearly set it up so that at the end, you can only be friends with one or the other, and then they'll ask for my praise that that decision mattered! They telegraphed it from the very first time you had to choose between sitting with one or the other, though, and it's no surprise they've kept the dichotomy going this entire time.
I didn't take that Russian jerkbag's meds. I fucking saved his life, and he's going to repay that with the same reaction he'd have if I'd robbed him blind? Maybe he's just that terrible a person, but it would've been nice to have that come across in the dialog somehow instead of him asserting that I did rob him. If he's going to count the gun, I'm going to call bullshit. Giving him the gun back when he was just two seconds ago sticking me up with it would've been the biggest bonehead move in the history of bones.
At the end, I chose not to shoot Rebecca, not because it didn't need to happen, but because I knew a gunshot would result in people thinking they'd been fired on. Shockingly, asking for help resulted in a gunshot, again making the choice pointless.
This season probably wouldn't be so disappointing if the prior season hadn't been so amazing. It's a pretty stunning contrast between the two. While the first season slipped up here and there with the illusion of choice, in the end, some choices actually did matter. Some even mattered well before the end.
Really getting tired of my choices not making any difference whatsoever.
Saving Sarah (twice! I had to send someone to get her the second time walkers were coming and she was just hugging her knees; I could have sent him for water instead) was just not going to be something I had a choice about. The problem is, it was presented as maybe the second-or-third-most important choice in the episode! I don't mind being helpless to prevent an event from happening, but if the only difference is how idealistic or cynical Clementine is about the event, you're going to make me, the player more cynical about your writing!
Kenny was pissed I lopped off his girlfriend's arm. OK, fine. Wait, no, that's not fine, because in many, many situations, Kenny has been the one telling people that he knows what must be done hurts them, but they should just get over themselves and do it anyway. If what I did was so unforgivable, then killing Larry in Season 1 was infinitely more unforgivable. He didn't do that to save Larry, he did it to save himself and a couple other people! I did what I did specifically to try and save her life, and he knows it. Kinda wanted the option to punch Kenny in the (former) eyeball.
Luke continues to be the absolute worst this side of Ben. Boning while you have literally the most important job out of anybody else? I get it, she was asking for it -- and that's the part where you go, "Nope, maybe some other time when it might not result in people dying." I hope he dies in the hail of gunfire there at the end.
But he won't, because literally the only important scale in this season is the one that slides between Kenny and Luke. They've clearly set it up so that at the end, you can only be friends with one or the other, and then they'll ask for my praise that that decision mattered! They telegraphed it from the very first time you had to choose between sitting with one or the other, though, and it's no surprise they've kept the dichotomy going this entire time.
I didn't take that Russian jerkbag's meds. I fucking saved his life, and he's going to repay that with the same reaction he'd have if I'd robbed him blind? Maybe he's just that terrible a person, but it would've been nice to have that come across in the dialog somehow instead of him asserting that I did rob him. If he's going to count the gun, I'm going to call bullshit. Giving him the gun back when he was just two seconds ago sticking me up with it would've been the biggest bonehead move in the history of bones.
At the end, I chose not to shoot Rebecca, not because it didn't need to happen, but because I knew a gunshot would result in people thinking they'd been fired on. Shockingly, asking for help resulted in a gunshot, again making the choice pointless.
This season probably wouldn't be so disappointing if the prior season hadn't been so amazing. It's a pretty stunning contrast between the two. While the first season slipped up here and there with the illusion of choice, in the end, some choices actually did matter. Some even mattered well before the end.
Per your spoilers, about where the season will end
I almost want to guess the ending will be only Clem and the baby surviving or being separated from everyone else, and they will somehow will be reunited with Christa (surprise!) and they all ride off into the proverbial sunset.
My thoughts on the seemingly irrelevant choices this season... maybe not a spoiler but I'll spoiler it nonetheless:
Everyone is flawed. No one is perfect. No one can make good decisions all the time and sometimes in life, you may find yourself in a situation where a negative outcome is inevitable, no matter what you do.
Powerlessness has been an overarching theme of this season and personally, I'm loving it. In every single episode, Clem is thrust into a situation where you aren't in control and that's a problem for gamers at large. It's my observation that many people are having a hard time coming to grips with this because they're stuck in a video game mentality. Gamers want to be in control. They want their decisions to matter at all times. I understand though. It's depressing to work so hard to save these people you have come to love, to think you've made all the "right" decisions, only to see them die a mundane death.
Unfortunately, people die unavoidable mundane deaths everyday. Death is disappointing. That is the point. Telltale wants us to feel this way and this is made apparent by the conversation that Clem and Jane have. I believe much of the disappointment comes from the reflection this game has upon our own mortality. We all want to be super zombie apocalypse survivors but many of us are nothing more than NPCs who will die inconsequential deaths.
This season is about Clem being thrust into impossible to win scenarios and making the best of it. They've simultaneously given a child agency while robbing her of it. It's an interesting scenario.
On Arvo:
Either Jane was right and he's a junky or he does have a sick sister and he took the meds for her and is using Clem's group as a scapegoat. He was planning on dumping the meds there and making up a story about losing them. Lucky for him he chanced upon a group of people he could place the blame on.
That choice was kinda janked though. There should have been an option to say "I didn't steal from you! I gave back the meds!" instead the closest we got was "It was Jane!"
It felt bugged but I think it was just mishandled.
I really enjoyed this episode overall despite some minor issues. This season has managed to portray the hopelessness of a zombie apocalypse in a way the previous season did not. For some, that makes them feel like their choices don't matter and they should just give up but that's partially the point. Survivors are living on borrowed time. Just because you survive today, doesn't mean you're going to survive tomorrow. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
...people die. We're not complaining that "It's depressing to work so hard to save these people you have come to love, to think you've made all the "right" decisions, only to see them die a mundane death."
For the most part, I hate these people. There are terrible, worthless people, and their blind selfishness and incompetence has caused problem after problem after problem.
But that's the good part! People are flawed, flawed characters are interesting. Look at Kenny: dude is super flawed, but still manages to be one of the two worthwhile characters this season.
What is not OK is pretend choices, and that's all we had in Episode 4. We could pretend to save Sarah. We could pretend not to steal from Arvo. We could pretend that going (or waiting) made a difference to Rebecca. And we can pretend that shooting her or calling for help matters.
The truth is, those are all false choices. It doesn't matter which option you pick, because the end result is the same: Sarah dies, Arvo accuses you of stealing, Rebecca dies, and the standoff at the end erupts into violence.
And the problem with false choices is that you rob the player of the entire purpose of these light novel games: seeing their actions have impact on a story. We play TWD to be told a good story. We play to impact that story. And in Season 2, we've been given a crappy story and almost entirely prevented from interacting with it.
There are no consequences to Clem's actions. Jane doesn't die (or get injured) if you try to help Sarah. Arvo still accuses you of stealing even if you didn't. Rebecca dies regardless, and however you react to that causes the standoff to result in violence.
Moreover, the choices that we're given are about things that should matter: does Clem help the helpless, or demand people stand up for themselves? Does Clem put herself and those she's with over strangers? Is she willing to put everyone at risk, to ease the suffering of one? Can she decisively take action, or must she call for help?
These choices only matter if we're presented with an opportunity for reflection. The medicine choice is the only one that comes anywhere near that, with Clem offering Rebecca some drugs if she stole them from Arvo... and that's half-assed, because the comeuppance happens regardless of action.
If you're going to give me choice, give me a situation in which I have to reflect on that choice.
If you're going to give me consequences, make them count.
But we did rob from him, whatever you chose, Jane took his gun. In this world I think that's probably quite a big deal. Someone even mentioned earlier in the episode that ammo is becoming rarer.
But we did rob from him, whatever you chose, Jane took his gun. In this world I think that's probably quite a big deal. Someone even mentioned earlier in the episode that ammo is becoming rarer.
Jane said that.
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Ov3rchargeR.I.P. Mass EffectYou were dead to me for yearsRegistered Userregular
I can't see a way that Episode 5 could end that would save Season 2 from meh territory.
There's a huge disconnect between the conflict of each episode. In season 1, the characters had a goal in mind, and you had Clementine as an anchor for making your actions feel more impactful as well as giving you more motivation to play. Now they just wander around aimlessly, and we barely get to know anybody. The only characters we got to sit down with
were Nick and Jane, who are both gone now.
Even with that, those weren't our choices. In season 1, we could get up and walk around more often, just talk to people and get more snippets of their personalities. Now we're just whisked from one story segment to the next. It's kind of disappointing.
That's not the point. The point is I don't know anybody and when Telltale kills them off and goes "hey are you sad yet?" I turn around and say "fuck no." I can't be assed to care for any of these characters because Telltale won't give me the time to get to know these characters. There were only three characters whose death affected me, and save for one they're all cheap shots.
Omid, by virtue of the quality writing of Season 1
Nick, he was well characterized because we got to fucking sit down and talk to him
and Sarah because she's a kid.
That's not the point. The point is I don't know anybody and when Telltale kills them off and goes "hey are you sad yet?" I turn around and say "fuck no." I can't be assed to care for any of these characters because Telltale won't give me the time to get to know these characters. There were only three characters whose death affected me, and save for one they're all cheap shots.
Omid, by virtue of the quality writing of Season 1
Nick, he was well characterized because we got to fucking sit down and talk to him
and Sarah because she's a kid.
Don't know about that, I feel like I got to know most of them pretty well just by how they behave in a group setting.
That's not the point. The point is I don't know anybody and when Telltale kills them off and goes "hey are you sad yet?" I turn around and say "fuck no." I can't be assed to care for any of these characters because Telltale won't give me the time to get to know these characters. There were only three characters whose death affected me, and save for one they're all cheap shots.
Omid, by virtue of the quality writing of Season 1
Nick, he was well characterized because we got to fucking sit down and talk to him
and Sarah because she's a kid.
Don't know about that, I feel like I got to know most of them pretty well just by how they behave in a group setting.
I agree with this. Their personalities were able to come through writing as it is, which is part of the reason I usually kept silent.
I felt like I knew these people well enough, but so far I don't really care about them all that much. They are a bunch of simpering, aimless folk, even if I have a good idea of what they are like individually.
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Ov3rchargeR.I.P. Mass EffectYou were dead to me for yearsRegistered Userregular
That's not the point. The point is I don't know anybody and when Telltale kills them off and goes "hey are you sad yet?" I turn around and say "fuck no." I can't be assed to care for any of these characters because Telltale won't give me the time to get to know these characters. There were only three characters whose death affected me, and save for one they're all cheap shots.
Omid, by virtue of the quality writing of Season 1
Nick, he was well characterized because we got to fucking sit down and talk to him
and Sarah because she's a kid.
Don't know about that, I feel like I got to know most of them pretty well just by how they behave in a group setting.
But there's no depth, in season 1 you got all that plus interaction with Lee that was your choice. In Season 2 you see them argue and agree amongst themselves, but that's it. Sure you can get a good feel from that, but that's it you have a general idea. Not only that but all of these characters are two dimensional, or at least I think they are why is that? Because I can't sit down and just chat with them unless Telltale gives me their express written consent after waiting two weeks for paper 13b to arrive at their offices down in LA. I'll give you an example:
Let's compare Episode 3 from both seasons. In Season 1 you are given The Motel, Outside the train, the train, and then outside the train again. In these scenarios you are free to get up and do whatever you want. You can chat with people, look at things to get Lee's thoughts, pick things up, or move the story along. In Season 2 you are given the prison cell, and it's timed. That's not just unique to one episode either. Season 1 Episode 2: You get the motel and then the farm at different points of the day, to be specific three different instances at the farm to see where your crew is and what they're up to. Season 2 has the cabin. That's it. Season 2 has some really cool story segments. But the story segments are like a car, it can be really well put together (like Season 2s are.) but the characters are the gas and Season 2 doesn't have any gas to give the story segments significance. Without any gas that just gives us Telltale's animators and choreographers jacking off for an hour and a half.
Choosing to save Doug or Carly meant there were a couple of episodes where you got to spend time with the person of your choice before they were offed. So while, in the end, it didn't matter which one you chose because they both died anyway, you still got to know that person a little better, they appreciated your company, and tried to convince you that you should be open with your past so it wouldn't come back to haunt you later. Their later inevitable death was far more impactful because you got to engage in multiple conversations with them where you weren't on a fucking timer before it happened, and they meant more to you at that point for it.
Which is another major problem with this season (at least in these latter episodes, I can't remember if it was this way at the beginning or not) -- you never get to deliberate on your choices during conversations. I understand putting a timer there when, say, somebody is pointing a gun at someone else and you need to think quickly, but on the extremely rare occasions where I'm just looking around and chatting with people, I don't want to be pushed into making decisions about how to respond to someone just to make it appear more cinematic. I want to think carefully about what impact my words will have on my story.
Mass Effect got dialog mechanics right: in non-emergency situations, give me a list of dialog choices and let me choose before the other character is done speaking. That way, if I want it to look super cinematic, I can, otherwise I'm willing to let that slide and have awkward pauses if it means my character can respond how I wish.
+2
Ov3rchargeR.I.P. Mass EffectYou were dead to me for yearsRegistered Userregular
Right.
In Season 1
Ben will always die, if you save him you see him change, he gets to stand up to Kenny, he promises to do better. He still dies but you get to see how he changes if you give him another chance at life.
In Season 2
You can save Alvin but he fucks off for all of episode 3 before he dies at the end of it. Nick gets all of four lines in episode 3 before he dies without a word in episode 4. If you save Sarah in episode 4 she sits in a corner before she dies later in episode 4.
-I chose to save Sarah at the trailer. So that she could then later die in a less thematically meaningful way at the deck.
-I told Bonnie that she was insane if she thought I would enter a completely uncleared room in a blind way that would leave me exposed the entire time, are you fucking mental. In the nice way, you know "try the door again (you giant dummy)." The game did make a typo, labeling this Selflessness when clearly the word they were looking for was Stupidity.
-I chose not to laugh out loud when Nick was dead without even saying a single word this episode or ever affecting any situation in even a minor way. Moral high ground!
-I chose to steal the medicine. Sarcasm aside, this was the only choice that had any meaning, a much edgier version of the groceries in the car from Season One. Lee chose to take those, as he was not a huge fan of starving to death. Clementine followed his lead on this one, despite actually feeling quite bad about it. Aggravatingly, Telltale barely seems to register that you DID steal the damn stuff. You offer Rebecca the pills as an afterthought, instead of as THE MAIN TOPIC OF CONVERSATION, I've got PILLS HERE!!! You bizarrely can't offer them to Luke, Kenny, or anyone else despite them being explicitly mentioned as being helped by them when you take them. It's like Telltale is only interested in the morality of such a thing while COMPLETELY DISREGARDING the life saving reasons such a decision would be made for.
-I told everybody we had to get moving in the morning. I found it strange that the word of the youngest group member at this point is gospel but hey, pack your shit up. There's some heavy dying you guys have got to do in the morning!
So yeah... the season has been interesting to play, but out of TWD 1, Wolf, and this, TWD 2 is the weakest by a factor of 10 or so. Disappointed by the horribly rushed nature of the plot developments. It's sad to see popular acclaim and (you would expect) a higher budget leading to shorter games with worse writing.
I really enjoyed this season, even if not as much as Season 1. After having read your guy's viewpoints, part of me kind of wishes that, in terms of choices
if you had stuck through the whole faith in humanity idea, and faith in the group, that you could have convinced Jane to stay. That way, in the end, she could die with the rest of the group at the end of episode four. That could have made your choice mean something, and in a shocking, but thematically appropriate way.
I really enjoyed this season, even if not as much as Season 1. After having read your guy's viewpoints, part of me kind of wishes that, in terms of choices
if you had stuck through the whole faith in humanity idea, and faith in the group, that you could have convinced Jane to stay. That way, in the end, she could die with the rest of the group at the end of episode four. That could have made your choice mean something, and in a shocking, but thematically appropriate way.
That is a perfect example of the kind of choice I wish they had included. Unfortunately, Telltale has made it abundantly clear that they have no intent to give us any real agency or choice. This is just a ride, and we are firmly strapped in.
Edit: You guys can probably tell I'm not bitter at all about season 2.
I really enjoyed this season, even if not as much as Season 1. After having read your guy's viewpoints, part of me kind of wishes that, in terms of choices
if you had stuck through the whole faith in humanity idea, and faith in the group, that you could have convinced Jane to stay. That way, in the end, she could die with the rest of the group at the end of episode four. That could have made your choice mean something, and in a shocking, but thematically appropriate way.
That is a perfect example of the kind of choice I wish they had included. Unfortunately, Telltale has made it abundantly clear that they have no intent to give us any real agency or choice. This is just a ride, and we are firmly strapped in.
Edit: You guys can probably tell I'm not bitter at all about season 2.
I mean, I agree with you that we are along for the ride, but I'm still enjoying it for the most part.
I'm still waiting for a huge choice that not only changes things majorly in later episodes, but later seasons.
Maybe Season 3 will have something like that. Season 3 was announced btw.
As lazy as Telltale has been, the idea of a Season 2 choice affecting Season 3 is laughable. Because think about it. That means the entire game has a branch right to begin with, AND they have to decide what's the "new player" choice for people only buying Season 3.
I would be down to clown with an 800 Days though. Follows everyone to Carver's camp, gives us their perspective on that whole situation. Since they've cheated every other thing, I'd be fine with them presuming that anyone who refused to show up at the end of 400 Days eventually did show up, they could throw in a bit of dialogue about being "forced" to come there if they didn't come in 400 Days.
This episode is the first time I wanted to play sociopath Clem because most of the adults are just so annoyingly useless it started to tick me off.
I appreciate Telltale taking a risk with the main character but it has a side effect of making many situations hilariously phony when grown men and women are standing around waiting for a kid to take all the initiative/do heavy lifting/fighting. A more subtle literary touch is needed, not to mention this one was also very predictable.
Tuesday, August 26 – PC/Mac worldwide, PlayStation 3 & Vita in North America.
• Wednesday, August 27 – Xbox 360 worldwide, PlayStation 3 & Vita in Europe.
• Thursday, August 28 – iPhone and iPad via the App Store.
• Near-Future – PS4, Xbox One & the other Mobile versions will be confirmed later.
I can't see a way that Episode 5 could end that would save Season 2 from meh territory.
There's a huge disconnect between the conflict of each episode. In season 1, the characters had a goal in mind, and you had Clementine as an anchor for making your actions feel more impactful as well as giving you more motivation to play. Now they just wander around aimlessly, and we barely get to know anybody. The only characters we got to sit down with
were Nick and Jane, who are both gone now.
Even with that, those weren't our choices. In season 1, we could get up and walk around more often, just talk to people and get more snippets of their personalities. Now we're just whisked from one story segment to the next. It's kind of disappointing.
Buh?
We got a "sit down" with Luke, Sarah, Pete, Kenny, Carver and Alvin off the top of my head.
What is your definition of a "sit down" though? There were more than a few private moments with many of these characters. Perhaps I found those interactions more poignant than you.
Wandering aimlessly is kinda a thing you do in the apocalypse. I don't think apocalypse stories necessarily always need a clear goal beyond simple survival.
Tuesday, August 26 – PC/Mac worldwide, PlayStation 3 & Vita in North America.
• Wednesday, August 27 – Xbox 360 worldwide, PlayStation 3 & Vita in Europe.
• Thursday, August 28 – iPhone and iPad via the App Store.
• Near-Future – PS4, Xbox One & the other Mobile versions will be confirmed later.
Dang that is fast. Guess I won't be able to finish this fan trailer I was storyboarding in time
Posts
As a Canadian:
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
I don't think it was broken, I think it was just poor dialog responses based on your actions. You should be fine to play it.
Kenny was pissed I lopped off his girlfriend's arm. OK, fine. Wait, no, that's not fine, because in many, many situations, Kenny has been the one telling people that he knows what must be done hurts them, but they should just get over themselves and do it anyway. If what I did was so unforgivable, then killing Larry in Season 1 was infinitely more unforgivable. He didn't do that to save Larry, he did it to save himself and a couple other people! I did what I did specifically to try and save her life, and he knows it. Kinda wanted the option to punch Kenny in the (former) eyeball.
Luke continues to be the absolute worst this side of Ben. Boning while you have literally the most important job out of anybody else? I get it, she was asking for it -- and that's the part where you go, "Nope, maybe some other time when it might not result in people dying." I hope he dies in the hail of gunfire there at the end.
But he won't, because literally the only important scale in this season is the one that slides between Kenny and Luke. They've clearly set it up so that at the end, you can only be friends with one or the other, and then they'll ask for my praise that that decision mattered! They telegraphed it from the very first time you had to choose between sitting with one or the other, though, and it's no surprise they've kept the dichotomy going this entire time.
I didn't take that Russian jerkbag's meds. I fucking saved his life, and he's going to repay that with the same reaction he'd have if I'd robbed him blind? Maybe he's just that terrible a person, but it would've been nice to have that come across in the dialog somehow instead of him asserting that I did rob him. If he's going to count the gun, I'm going to call bullshit. Giving him the gun back when he was just two seconds ago sticking me up with it would've been the biggest bonehead move in the history of bones.
At the end, I chose not to shoot Rebecca, not because it didn't need to happen, but because I knew a gunshot would result in people thinking they'd been fired on. Shockingly, asking for help resulted in a gunshot, again making the choice pointless.
This season probably wouldn't be so disappointing if the prior season hadn't been so amazing. It's a pretty stunning contrast between the two. While the first season slipped up here and there with the illusion of choice, in the end, some choices actually did matter. Some even mattered well before the end.
Per your spoilers, about where the season will end
Powerlessness has been an overarching theme of this season and personally, I'm loving it. In every single episode, Clem is thrust into a situation where you aren't in control and that's a problem for gamers at large. It's my observation that many people are having a hard time coming to grips with this because they're stuck in a video game mentality. Gamers want to be in control. They want their decisions to matter at all times. I understand though. It's depressing to work so hard to save these people you have come to love, to think you've made all the "right" decisions, only to see them die a mundane death.
Unfortunately, people die unavoidable mundane deaths everyday. Death is disappointing. That is the point. Telltale wants us to feel this way and this is made apparent by the conversation that Clem and Jane have. I believe much of the disappointment comes from the reflection this game has upon our own mortality. We all want to be super zombie apocalypse survivors but many of us are nothing more than NPCs who will die inconsequential deaths.
This season is about Clem being thrust into impossible to win scenarios and making the best of it. They've simultaneously given a child agency while robbing her of it. It's an interesting scenario.
On Arvo:
That choice was kinda janked though. There should have been an option to say "I didn't steal from you! I gave back the meds!" instead the closest we got was "It was Jane!"
It felt bugged but I think it was just mishandled.
I really enjoyed this episode overall despite some minor issues. This season has managed to portray the hopelessness of a zombie apocalypse in a way the previous season did not. For some, that makes them feel like their choices don't matter and they should just give up but that's partially the point. Survivors are living on borrowed time. Just because you survive today, doesn't mean you're going to survive tomorrow. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
This explains S2 well I think:
For the most part, I hate these people. There are terrible, worthless people, and their blind selfishness and incompetence has caused problem after problem after problem.
But that's the good part! People are flawed, flawed characters are interesting. Look at Kenny: dude is super flawed, but still manages to be one of the two worthwhile characters this season.
What is not OK is pretend choices, and that's all we had in Episode 4. We could pretend to save Sarah. We could pretend not to steal from Arvo. We could pretend that going (or waiting) made a difference to Rebecca. And we can pretend that shooting her or calling for help matters.
The truth is, those are all false choices. It doesn't matter which option you pick, because the end result is the same: Sarah dies, Arvo accuses you of stealing, Rebecca dies, and the standoff at the end erupts into violence.
And the problem with false choices is that you rob the player of the entire purpose of these light novel games: seeing their actions have impact on a story. We play TWD to be told a good story. We play to impact that story. And in Season 2, we've been given a crappy story and almost entirely prevented from interacting with it.
There are no consequences to Clem's actions. Jane doesn't die (or get injured) if you try to help Sarah. Arvo still accuses you of stealing even if you didn't. Rebecca dies regardless, and however you react to that causes the standoff to result in violence.
Moreover, the choices that we're given are about things that should matter: does Clem help the helpless, or demand people stand up for themselves? Does Clem put herself and those she's with over strangers? Is she willing to put everyone at risk, to ease the suffering of one? Can she decisively take action, or must she call for help?
These choices only matter if we're presented with an opportunity for reflection. The medicine choice is the only one that comes anywhere near that, with Clem offering Rebecca some drugs if she stole them from Arvo... and that's half-assed, because the comeuppance happens regardless of action.
If you're going to give me choice, give me a situation in which I have to reflect on that choice.
If you're going to give me consequences, make them count.
So far, Season 2 has been extremely bad at both.
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Not only do the choices we made in this episode not matter, the whole season ends almost exactly as it began.
I sort of ran through the motions this time, literally. I don't think I'm invested like I was last season. Hopefully this season ends well.
No spoilers there. It's just amazing.
Jane said that.
There's a huge disconnect between the conflict of each episode. In season 1, the characters had a goal in mind, and you had Clementine as an anchor for making your actions feel more impactful as well as giving you more motivation to play. Now they just wander around aimlessly, and we barely get to know anybody. The only characters we got to sit down with
That's not the point. The point is I don't know anybody and when Telltale kills them off and goes "hey are you sad yet?" I turn around and say "fuck no." I can't be assed to care for any of these characters because Telltale won't give me the time to get to know these characters. There were only three characters whose death affected me, and save for one they're all cheap shots.
Nick, he was well characterized because we got to fucking sit down and talk to him
and Sarah because she's a kid.
Don't know about that, I feel like I got to know most of them pretty well just by how they behave in a group setting.
I agree with this. Their personalities were able to come through writing as it is, which is part of the reason I usually kept silent.
I felt like I knew these people well enough, but so far I don't really care about them all that much. They are a bunch of simpering, aimless folk, even if I have a good idea of what they are like individually.
But there's no depth, in season 1 you got all that plus interaction with Lee that was your choice. In Season 2 you see them argue and agree amongst themselves, but that's it. Sure you can get a good feel from that, but that's it you have a general idea. Not only that but all of these characters are two dimensional, or at least I think they are why is that? Because I can't sit down and just chat with them unless Telltale gives me their express written consent after waiting two weeks for paper 13b to arrive at their offices down in LA. I'll give you an example:
Let's compare Episode 3 from both seasons. In Season 1 you are given The Motel, Outside the train, the train, and then outside the train again. In these scenarios you are free to get up and do whatever you want. You can chat with people, look at things to get Lee's thoughts, pick things up, or move the story along. In Season 2 you are given the prison cell, and it's timed. That's not just unique to one episode either. Season 1 Episode 2: You get the motel and then the farm at different points of the day, to be specific three different instances at the farm to see where your crew is and what they're up to. Season 2 has the cabin. That's it. Season 2 has some really cool story segments. But the story segments are like a car, it can be really well put together (like Season 2s are.) but the characters are the gas and Season 2 doesn't have any gas to give the story segments significance. Without any gas that just gives us Telltale's animators and choreographers jacking off for an hour and a half.
Which is another major problem with this season (at least in these latter episodes, I can't remember if it was this way at the beginning or not) -- you never get to deliberate on your choices during conversations. I understand putting a timer there when, say, somebody is pointing a gun at someone else and you need to think quickly, but on the extremely rare occasions where I'm just looking around and chatting with people, I don't want to be pushed into making decisions about how to respond to someone just to make it appear more cinematic. I want to think carefully about what impact my words will have on my story.
Mass Effect got dialog mechanics right: in non-emergency situations, give me a list of dialog choices and let me choose before the other character is done speaking. That way, if I want it to look super cinematic, I can, otherwise I'm willing to let that slide and have awkward pauses if it means my character can respond how I wish.
In Season 1
-I told Bonnie that she was insane if she thought I would enter a completely uncleared room in a blind way that would leave me exposed the entire time, are you fucking mental. In the nice way, you know "try the door again (you giant dummy)." The game did make a typo, labeling this Selflessness when clearly the word they were looking for was Stupidity.
-I chose not to laugh out loud when Nick was dead without even saying a single word this episode or ever affecting any situation in even a minor way. Moral high ground!
-I chose to steal the medicine. Sarcasm aside, this was the only choice that had any meaning, a much edgier version of the groceries in the car from Season One. Lee chose to take those, as he was not a huge fan of starving to death. Clementine followed his lead on this one, despite actually feeling quite bad about it. Aggravatingly, Telltale barely seems to register that you DID steal the damn stuff. You offer Rebecca the pills as an afterthought, instead of as THE MAIN TOPIC OF CONVERSATION, I've got PILLS HERE!!! You bizarrely can't offer them to Luke, Kenny, or anyone else despite them being explicitly mentioned as being helped by them when you take them. It's like Telltale is only interested in the morality of such a thing while COMPLETELY DISREGARDING the life saving reasons such a decision would be made for.
-I told everybody we had to get moving in the morning. I found it strange that the word of the youngest group member at this point is gospel but hey, pack your shit up. There's some heavy dying you guys have got to do in the morning!
So yeah... the season has been interesting to play, but out of TWD 1, Wolf, and this, TWD 2 is the weakest by a factor of 10 or so. Disappointed by the horribly rushed nature of the plot developments. It's sad to see popular acclaim and (you would expect) a higher budget leading to shorter games with worse writing.
That is a perfect example of the kind of choice I wish they had included. Unfortunately, Telltale has made it abundantly clear that they have no intent to give us any real agency or choice. This is just a ride, and we are firmly strapped in.
Edit: You guys can probably tell I'm not bitter at all about season 2.
I mean, I agree with you that we are along for the ride, but I'm still enjoying it for the most part.
I'm still waiting for a huge choice that not only changes things majorly in later episodes, but later seasons.
Maybe Season 3 will have something like that. Season 3 was announced btw.
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I would be down to clown with an 800 Days though. Follows everyone to Carver's camp, gives us their perspective on that whole situation. Since they've cheated every other thing, I'd be fine with them presuming that anyone who refused to show up at the end of 400 Days eventually did show up, they could throw in a bit of dialogue about being "forced" to come there if they didn't come in 400 Days.
It would be for the best.
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I'm pretty sure that's what their called in the dub anyway I don't really remember
I appreciate Telltale taking a risk with the main character but it has a side effect of making many situations hilariously phony when grown men and women are standing around waiting for a kid to take all the initiative/do heavy lifting/fighting. A more subtle literary touch is needed, not to mention this one was also very predictable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZaDptBFRWg
Has major spoilers for both seasons.
Buh?
We got a "sit down" with Luke, Sarah, Pete, Kenny, Carver and Alvin off the top of my head.
What is your definition of a "sit down" though? There were more than a few private moments with many of these characters. Perhaps I found those interactions more poignant than you.
Wandering aimlessly is kinda a thing you do in the apocalypse. I don't think apocalypse stories necessarily always need a clear goal beyond simple survival.
Dang that is fast. Guess I won't be able to finish this fan trailer I was storyboarding in time
They finished Wolf Among Us, must have freed up some resources.
I wonder if Tales From the Borderlands will start in September...