Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
I dunno where you're getting that sister thing from?
She explains that she wasn't able to convince her sister to jump from a rooftop when surrounded by walkers, after repeatedly dragging her through situations where it was clear she was suicidal. You make it sound like she ditched her to die because she was a burden, but all the info we have is that she tried her damndest to keep her sister alive. She failed, and now tries not to get involved with liabilities like Sarah.
She does NOT rob Arvo if Clem decides not to, Arvo is lying later. Jane threatens him not to come back, that is all.
Troy is implied to be a fuckin' rapist, dude. He even skeeves on Sarah and Clementine in the intro to In Harm's Way. If he's gonna be getting what he wants from Jane either way, I do not begrudge her trying to take control of that situation in the only way she can. The fact she shoots him in the dick should clue you in that she wasn't having a fun time with Troy and then betraying him, she was getting revenge on a rapist. It also leads to the dumb moment where she has sex with Luke - trying to take back control and choice in her life.
Jane's got problems, but I have a much easier time trusting her than Kenny. She's way more stable. It'd be harder to convince her to partner up with you, but that partnership would be a whole lot sturdier than anything Kenny can offer.
I dunno where you're getting that sister thing from?
She explains that she wasn't able to convince her sister to jump from a rooftop when surrounded by walkers, after repeatedly dragging her through situations where it was clear she was suicidal. You make it sound like she ditched her to die because she was a burden, but all the info we have is that she tried her damndest to keep her sister alive. She failed, and now tries not to get involved with liabilities like Sarah.
She does NOT rob Arvo if Clem decides not to, Arvo is lying later. Jane threatens him not to come back, that is all.
Troy is implied to be a fuckin' rapist, dude. He even skeeves on Sarah and Clementine in the intro to In Harm's Way. If he's gonna be getting what he wants from Jane either way, I do not begrudge her trying to take control of that situation in the only way she can. The fact she shoots him in the dick should clue you in that she wasn't having a fun time with Troy and then betraying him, she was getting revenge on a rapist. It also leads to the dumb moment where she has sex with Luke - trying to take back control and choice in her life.
Jane's got problems, but I have a much easier time trusting her than Kenny. She's way more stable. It'd be harder to convince her to partner up with you, but that partnership would be a whole lot sturdier than anything Kenny can offer.
If you wanted stability, you'd be better off being a forced laborer at Carver's place. Kenny took a beating on behalf of Clementine and lost an eye and I have enough confidence in Kenny to think he would have cut his own arm off and cooked it rather than let Clementine or AJ starve. You're dead wrong to take these Mama Bear qualities lightly; loyalty trumps stability in the zombie apocalypse.
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Ov3rchargeR.I.P. Mass EffectYou were dead to me for yearsRegistered Userregular
Neither Kenny or Jane are great for Clem in the long run, whether it be Kenny blowing up and going on a killing spree or Jane waking up one morning and deciding she wants out.
I dunno where you're getting that sister thing from?
She explains that she wasn't able to convince her sister to jump from a rooftop when surrounded by walkers, after repeatedly dragging her through situations where it was clear she was suicidal. You make it sound like she ditched her to die because she was a burden, but all the info we have is that she tried her damndest to keep her sister alive. She failed, and now tries not to get involved with liabilities like Sarah.
She does NOT rob Arvo if Clem decides not to, Arvo is lying later. Jane threatens him not to come back, that is all.
Troy is implied to be a fuckin' rapist, dude. He even skeeves on Sarah and Clementine in the intro to In Harm's Way. If he's gonna be getting what he wants from Jane either way, I do not begrudge her trying to take control of that situation in the only way she can. The fact she shoots him in the dick should clue you in that she wasn't having a fun time with Troy and then betraying him, she was getting revenge on a rapist. It also leads to the dumb moment where she has sex with Luke - trying to take back control and choice in her life.
Jane's got problems, but I have a much easier time trusting her than Kenny. She's way more stable. It'd be harder to convince her to partner up with you, but that partnership would be a whole lot sturdier than anything Kenny can offer.
If you wanted stability, you'd be better off being a forced laborer at Carver's place. Kenny took a beating on behalf of Clementine and lost an eye and I have enough confidence in Kenny to think he would have cut his own arm off and cooked it rather than let Clementine or AJ starve. You're dead wrong to take these Mama Bear qualities lightly; loyalty trumps stability in the zombie apocalypse.
Damn, that first sentence seems a bit vicious, but okay. I guess a lot of this discussion comes down to how much you are willing to pay for loyalty. There can be little question that Kenny was eager to kill people at the slightest provocation, including beating children to death with his bare hands. You might argue that this is a useful trait as long as he never turns on Clem, or that it is a weakness that is nevertheless made up for by that same loyalty. I'm not so convinced.
Arguing the specifics of the problems I have with Kenny's style of leadership is made a bit problematic by his ending. His final, heroic sacrifice seems to redeem him to a lot of people, in a "the ends justify the means" sort of way. That said, I can't help thinking about it in what if's.
What if Kenny hadn't treated Arvo the way he did? It seemed clear that Bonnie and Mike left because they were terrified of Kenny, and because they wanted to save the boy. Or what if Kenny had actually listened to the wishes of Clem and Jane, and not kept threatening the latter with violence? And the big one, what if the city in the north (forgot the name) wasn't there? What if his desperate, fervent dream had been just that?
In some fashion, his story ends with redemption either way you go. For me, in that moment, I felt certain that if I just stood by and watched as he killed again it would not be the last time. We would certainly meet people again, and sooner or later he would find a reason to kill them. I did not believe in his dream of a city to the north. I wanted to save Jane, and myself.
I was pissed as hell at Jane afterwards. Livid! For a while I felt certain that my Clementine would never have been able to forgive her. But after a lot of thinking I have come to consider her as loyal as Kenny, just in a different way. She knew her stunt might kill her, but was willing to risk it to make Clem see just how dangerous Kenny had become. She was willing to die for you, just as he was. The difference is that even though Jane is irresponsible, reckless, and sometimes selfish, she is still sane. Kenny isn't. He went through more than anyone could have been expected to bear, and it broke him. It's awfully sad, and I am happy for those of you who were able to play in a world where he could sacrifice himself for something worthwhile, but that was not the way my story went.
Jane is going to up and abandon Clem, Jane liked to avoid connections with people because of the trauma of the slow fall of her sister. Clem has helped her start to get over it, and I think she'll develop the same loyalty to Clem that she had for her sister, and without the sociopathic rage and murder tendencies of other people.
I've been watching the argument each time it flares up, and never actually gotten around to committing my opinions to writing.
I hate the Cult of the Center, I really do, but in this case I can't see any reason to get worked up over thinking either character was fully in the right.
Since Season 1, we've been shown time and again that Kenny comes from a very traditionally Southern mindset as regards the arrangement of family. He comes from a tradition, of which I myself am intimately aware, that says that the mother is the caretaker and the father is the provider and defender. He measures his own worth in terms of keeping his family safe and provided for. Season 1 saw his direct family starve and die the whole way through. The circumstances were entirely out of his control (say what you will about his individual decisions, nobody is ever going to keep people comfortably fed and safe during the zombie apocalypse), but you could say that he failed in his duty as a patriarch, continually. In Season 2, he's still trying to be a good patriarch to his new, adoptive family, and still "failing", because there's simply no way to achieve the goal he's after. Every failure chips away at his sanity, and as he continually degrades, he gets worse and worse at meeting the standards he's set for himself. I'm not even going to try to argue that he wasn't a violent psychopath, but I understand why he got the way he was, and I don't particularly blame him for it.
Jane, on the other hand... I hate to phrase it this way, but the whole "this season was about loyalty, if you side with the backstabbing bitch you get the shitty ending" gives me this creepy GG vibe. Her arc was pretty clearly spelled out that she's scared of forming attachments because this is The Walking Dead, and the odds are really good that everyone you love is going to die because fuck you, happily ever after doesn't exist here. She tries hard to turn Clem to her own way of thinking, but (I guess this might be biased by my experiences) ultimately exactly the opposite happens. She starts to see how she can't just survive on her own all the time and she is going to have to form some attachments at some point. That doesn't mean she's completely turned around by the end of the story, and she's fighting her own flighty instincts all the time. Even the cliffhanger asks the question of whether she'll be able to trust the next new group of outsiders. But the idea that she's just waiting for an opportunity to kill you and take your stuff because she's Chaotic Evil, well... I don't see it.
The writing was, to put it diplomatically, not the best in Season 2. But I take issue with the idea that there was a clear hero and a clear villain in that final decision; it was a clash of two deeply flawed individuals failing to meet their own standards, embarked at the worst possible time for all involved. That's The Walking Dead for you.
My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
I've been watching the argument each time it flares up, and never actually gotten around to committing my opinions to writing.
I hate the Cult of the Center, I really do, but in this case I can't see any reason to get worked up over thinking either character was fully in the right.
Since Season 1, we've been shown time and again that Kenny comes from a very traditionally Southern mindset as regards the arrangement of family. He comes from a tradition, of which I myself am intimately aware, that says that the mother is the caretaker and the father is the provider and defender. He measures his own worth in terms of keeping his family safe and provided for. Season 1 saw his direct family starve and die the whole way through. The circumstances were entirely out of his control (say what you will about his individual decisions, nobody is ever going to keep people comfortably fed and safe during the zombie apocalypse), but you could say that he failed in his duty as a patriarch, continually. In Season 2, he's still trying to be a good patriarch to his new, adoptive family, and still "failing", because there's simply no way to achieve the goal he's after. Every failure chips away at his sanity, and as he continually degrades, he gets worse and worse at meeting the standards he's set for himself. I'm not even going to try to argue that he wasn't a violent psychopath, but I understand why he got the way he was, and I don't particularly blame him for it.
Jane, on the other hand... I hate to phrase it this way, but the whole "this season was about loyalty, if you side with the backstabbing bitch you get the shitty ending" gives me this creepy GG vibe. Her arc was pretty clearly spelled out that she's scared of forming attachments because this is The Walking Dead, and the odds are really good that everyone you love is going to die because fuck you, happily ever after doesn't exist here. She tries hard to turn Clem to her own way of thinking, but (I guess this might be biased by my experiences) ultimately exactly the opposite happens. She starts to see how she can't just survive on her own all the time and she is going to have to form some attachments at some point. That doesn't mean she's completely turned around by the end of the story, and she's fighting her own flighty instincts all the time. Even the cliffhanger asks the question of whether she'll be able to trust the next new group of outsiders. But the idea that she's just waiting for an opportunity to kill you and take your stuff because she's Chaotic Evil, well... I don't see it.
The writing was, to put it diplomatically, not the best in Season 2. But I take issue with the idea that there was a clear hero and a clear villain in that final decision; it was a clash of two deeply flawed individuals failing to meet their own standards, embarked at the worst possible time for all involved. That's The Walking Dead for you.
You know, I would completely agree with you except,
I feel that when she lies to Kenny about the baby being dead is when she crosses over the line from flawed character to actively screwing with people.
I've been watching the argument each time it flares up, and never actually gotten around to committing my opinions to writing.
I hate the Cult of the Center, I really do, but in this case I can't see any reason to get worked up over thinking either character was fully in the right.
Since Season 1, we've been shown time and again that Kenny comes from a very traditionally Southern mindset as regards the arrangement of family. He comes from a tradition, of which I myself am intimately aware, that says that the mother is the caretaker and the father is the provider and defender. He measures his own worth in terms of keeping his family safe and provided for. Season 1 saw his direct family starve and die the whole way through. The circumstances were entirely out of his control (say what you will about his individual decisions, nobody is ever going to keep people comfortably fed and safe during the zombie apocalypse), but you could say that he failed in his duty as a patriarch, continually. In Season 2, he's still trying to be a good patriarch to his new, adoptive family, and still "failing", because there's simply no way to achieve the goal he's after. Every failure chips away at his sanity, and as he continually degrades, he gets worse and worse at meeting the standards he's set for himself. I'm not even going to try to argue that he wasn't a violent psychopath, but I understand why he got the way he was, and I don't particularly blame him for it.
Jane, on the other hand... I hate to phrase it this way, but the whole "this season was about loyalty, if you side with the backstabbing bitch you get the shitty ending" gives me this creepy GG vibe. Her arc was pretty clearly spelled out that she's scared of forming attachments because this is The Walking Dead, and the odds are really good that everyone you love is going to die because fuck you, happily ever after doesn't exist here. She tries hard to turn Clem to her own way of thinking, but (I guess this might be biased by my experiences) ultimately exactly the opposite happens. She starts to see how she can't just survive on her own all the time and she is going to have to form some attachments at some point. That doesn't mean she's completely turned around by the end of the story, and she's fighting her own flighty instincts all the time. Even the cliffhanger asks the question of whether she'll be able to trust the next new group of outsiders. But the idea that she's just waiting for an opportunity to kill you and take your stuff because she's Chaotic Evil, well... I don't see it.
The writing was, to put it diplomatically, not the best in Season 2. But I take issue with the idea that there was a clear hero and a clear villain in that final decision; it was a clash of two deeply flawed individuals failing to meet their own standards, embarked at the worst possible time for all involved. That's The Walking Dead for you.
You know, I would completely agree with you except,
I feel that when she lies to Kenny about the baby being dead is when she crosses over the line from flawed character to actively screwing with people.
I can't say I agree. Remember that Clem is the person that Jane really cares about, and Jane is also convinced that it's only a matter of time before Clem is the target of one of Kenny's outbursts, with lethal consequences. She wasn't lying about AJ for shits and giggles, she was doing it to provoke Kenny so that Clem would have to accept that Kenny really can't control himself. That doesn't strike me as malicious; at the very least, it's not directly self-serving nor exclusively to the detriment of somebody else.
However, I'll say that the whole scenario falls under the umbrella of "the writing is not the best in Season 2". Even if Jane thought provoking Kenny was the right thing to do for Clem's sake, doing so in the middle of a snowstorm, after your truck's run out of gas, using a baby as a bargaining chip, with Walkers around, was kind of a poor time to pull that kind of stunt.
My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
I've been watching the argument each time it flares up, and never actually gotten around to committing my opinions to writing.
I hate the Cult of the Center, I really do, but in this case I can't see any reason to get worked up over thinking either character was fully in the right.
Since Season 1, we've been shown time and again that Kenny comes from a very traditionally Southern mindset as regards the arrangement of family. He comes from a tradition, of which I myself am intimately aware, that says that the mother is the caretaker and the father is the provider and defender. He measures his own worth in terms of keeping his family safe and provided for. Season 1 saw his direct family starve and die the whole way through. The circumstances were entirely out of his control (say what you will about his individual decisions, nobody is ever going to keep people comfortably fed and safe during the zombie apocalypse), but you could say that he failed in his duty as a patriarch, continually. In Season 2, he's still trying to be a good patriarch to his new, adoptive family, and still "failing", because there's simply no way to achieve the goal he's after. Every failure chips away at his sanity, and as he continually degrades, he gets worse and worse at meeting the standards he's set for himself. I'm not even going to try to argue that he wasn't a violent psychopath, but I understand why he got the way he was, and I don't particularly blame him for it.
Jane, on the other hand... I hate to phrase it this way, but the whole "this season was about loyalty, if you side with the backstabbing bitch you get the shitty ending" gives me this creepy GG vibe. Her arc was pretty clearly spelled out that she's scared of forming attachments because this is The Walking Dead, and the odds are really good that everyone you love is going to die because fuck you, happily ever after doesn't exist here. She tries hard to turn Clem to her own way of thinking, but (I guess this might be biased by my experiences) ultimately exactly the opposite happens. She starts to see how she can't just survive on her own all the time and she is going to have to form some attachments at some point. That doesn't mean she's completely turned around by the end of the story, and she's fighting her own flighty instincts all the time. Even the cliffhanger asks the question of whether she'll be able to trust the next new group of outsiders. But the idea that she's just waiting for an opportunity to kill you and take your stuff because she's Chaotic Evil, well... I don't see it.
The writing was, to put it diplomatically, not the best in Season 2. But I take issue with the idea that there was a clear hero and a clear villain in that final decision; it was a clash of two deeply flawed individuals failing to meet their own standards, embarked at the worst possible time for all involved. That's The Walking Dead for you.
You know, I would completely agree with you except,
I feel that when she lies to Kenny about the baby being dead is when she crosses over the line from flawed character to actively screwing with people.
I can't say I agree. Remember that Clem is the person that Jane really cares about, and Jane is also convinced that it's only a matter of time before Clem is the target of one of Kenny's outbursts, with lethal consequences. She wasn't lying about AJ for shits and giggles, she was doing it to provoke Kenny so that Clem would have to accept that Kenny really can't control himself. That doesn't strike me as malicious; at the very least, it's not directly self-serving nor exclusively to the detriment of somebody else.
However, I'll say that the whole scenario falls under the umbrella of "the writing is not the best in Season 2". Even if Jane thought provoking Kenny was the right thing to do for Clem's sake, doing so in the middle of a snowstorm, after your truck's run out of gas, using a baby as a bargaining chip, with Walkers around, was kind of a poor time to pull that kind of stunt.
It's a poor test. I couldn't control myself if someone abandoned my baby out in the snow (and AJ is Kenny's baby). Could anyone?
I've been watching the argument each time it flares up, and never actually gotten around to committing my opinions to writing.
I hate the Cult of the Center, I really do, but in this case I can't see any reason to get worked up over thinking either character was fully in the right.
Since Season 1, we've been shown time and again that Kenny comes from a very traditionally Southern mindset as regards the arrangement of family. He comes from a tradition, of which I myself am intimately aware, that says that the mother is the caretaker and the father is the provider and defender. He measures his own worth in terms of keeping his family safe and provided for. Season 1 saw his direct family starve and die the whole way through. The circumstances were entirely out of his control (say what you will about his individual decisions, nobody is ever going to keep people comfortably fed and safe during the zombie apocalypse), but you could say that he failed in his duty as a patriarch, continually. In Season 2, he's still trying to be a good patriarch to his new, adoptive family, and still "failing", because there's simply no way to achieve the goal he's after. Every failure chips away at his sanity, and as he continually degrades, he gets worse and worse at meeting the standards he's set for himself. I'm not even going to try to argue that he wasn't a violent psychopath, but I understand why he got the way he was, and I don't particularly blame him for it.
Jane, on the other hand... I hate to phrase it this way, but the whole "this season was about loyalty, if you side with the backstabbing bitch you get the shitty ending" gives me this creepy GG vibe. Her arc was pretty clearly spelled out that she's scared of forming attachments because this is The Walking Dead, and the odds are really good that everyone you love is going to die because fuck you, happily ever after doesn't exist here. She tries hard to turn Clem to her own way of thinking, but (I guess this might be biased by my experiences) ultimately exactly the opposite happens. She starts to see how she can't just survive on her own all the time and she is going to have to form some attachments at some point. That doesn't mean she's completely turned around by the end of the story, and she's fighting her own flighty instincts all the time. Even the cliffhanger asks the question of whether she'll be able to trust the next new group of outsiders. But the idea that she's just waiting for an opportunity to kill you and take your stuff because she's Chaotic Evil, well... I don't see it.
The writing was, to put it diplomatically, not the best in Season 2. But I take issue with the idea that there was a clear hero and a clear villain in that final decision; it was a clash of two deeply flawed individuals failing to meet their own standards, embarked at the worst possible time for all involved. That's The Walking Dead for you.
You know, I would completely agree with you except,
I feel that when she lies to Kenny about the baby being dead is when she crosses over the line from flawed character to actively screwing with people.
I can't say I agree. Remember that Clem is the person that Jane really cares about, and Jane is also convinced that it's only a matter of time before Clem is the target of one of Kenny's outbursts, with lethal consequences. She wasn't lying about AJ for shits and giggles, she was doing it to provoke Kenny so that Clem would have to accept that Kenny really can't control himself. That doesn't strike me as malicious; at the very least, it's not directly self-serving nor exclusively to the detriment of somebody else.
However, I'll say that the whole scenario falls under the umbrella of "the writing is not the best in Season 2". Even if Jane thought provoking Kenny was the right thing to do for Clem's sake, doing so in the middle of a snowstorm, after your truck's run out of gas, using a baby as a bargaining chip, with Walkers around, was kind of a poor time to pull that kind of stunt.
Yes but also a big reason why it happened then and there is.
Jane saw the writing on the wall. They were heading north, into a blizzard, to a place that might not even exist, just to placate a psychopath. The sane move was to head back south, to known shelter, to known resources. Chances were extreme that the coven of crazy had either been consumed by the herd or run off by them, so it would have been easy to raid for supplies or base in, and considering it has huge infrastructure in the green houses and power, its an ideal place to bear out the winter. Jane did what she did to save everyones life.
I've been watching the argument each time it flares up, and never actually gotten around to committing my opinions to writing.
I hate the Cult of the Center, I really do, but in this case I can't see any reason to get worked up over thinking either character was fully in the right.
Since Season 1, we've been shown time and again that Kenny comes from a very traditionally Southern mindset as regards the arrangement of family. He comes from a tradition, of which I myself am intimately aware, that says that the mother is the caretaker and the father is the provider and defender. He measures his own worth in terms of keeping his family safe and provided for. Season 1 saw his direct family starve and die the whole way through. The circumstances were entirely out of his control (say what you will about his individual decisions, nobody is ever going to keep people comfortably fed and safe during the zombie apocalypse), but you could say that he failed in his duty as a patriarch, continually. In Season 2, he's still trying to be a good patriarch to his new, adoptive family, and still "failing", because there's simply no way to achieve the goal he's after. Every failure chips away at his sanity, and as he continually degrades, he gets worse and worse at meeting the standards he's set for himself. I'm not even going to try to argue that he wasn't a violent psychopath, but I understand why he got the way he was, and I don't particularly blame him for it.
Jane, on the other hand... I hate to phrase it this way, but the whole "this season was about loyalty, if you side with the backstabbing bitch you get the shitty ending" gives me this creepy GG vibe. Her arc was pretty clearly spelled out that she's scared of forming attachments because this is The Walking Dead, and the odds are really good that everyone you love is going to die because fuck you, happily ever after doesn't exist here. She tries hard to turn Clem to her own way of thinking, but (I guess this might be biased by my experiences) ultimately exactly the opposite happens. She starts to see how she can't just survive on her own all the time and she is going to have to form some attachments at some point. That doesn't mean she's completely turned around by the end of the story, and she's fighting her own flighty instincts all the time. Even the cliffhanger asks the question of whether she'll be able to trust the next new group of outsiders. But the idea that she's just waiting for an opportunity to kill you and take your stuff because she's Chaotic Evil, well... I don't see it.
The writing was, to put it diplomatically, not the best in Season 2. But I take issue with the idea that there was a clear hero and a clear villain in that final decision; it was a clash of two deeply flawed individuals failing to meet their own standards, embarked at the worst possible time for all involved. That's The Walking Dead for you.
You know, I would completely agree with you except,
I feel that when she lies to Kenny about the baby being dead is when she crosses over the line from flawed character to actively screwing with people.
I can't say I agree. Remember that Clem is the person that Jane really cares about, and Jane is also convinced that it's only a matter of time before Clem is the target of one of Kenny's outbursts, with lethal consequences. She wasn't lying about AJ for shits and giggles, she was doing it to provoke Kenny so that Clem would have to accept that Kenny really can't control himself. That doesn't strike me as malicious; at the very least, it's not directly self-serving nor exclusively to the detriment of somebody else.
However, I'll say that the whole scenario falls under the umbrella of "the writing is not the best in Season 2". Even if Jane thought provoking Kenny was the right thing to do for Clem's sake, doing so in the middle of a snowstorm, after your truck's run out of gas, using a baby as a bargaining chip, with Walkers around, was kind of a poor time to pull that kind of stunt.
Yes but also a big reason why it happened then and there is.
Jane saw the writing on the wall. They were heading north, into a blizzard, to a place that might not even exist, just to placate a psychopath. The sane move was to head back south, to known shelter, to known resources. Chances were extreme that the coven of crazy had either been consumed by the herd or run off by them, so it would have been easy to raid for supplies or base in, and considering it has huge infrastructure in the green houses and power, its an ideal place to bear out the winter. Jane did what she did to save everyones life.
Unless the herd that originally attacked the place was still sitting on top of hardware store. Unless the store hadn't burned to the ground. Unless unless. The writing could have been better about supplying reasons to not return because, yeah, the clearly correct answer was to go back south to known shelter.
I've been watching the argument each time it flares up, and never actually gotten around to committing my opinions to writing.
I hate the Cult of the Center, I really do, but in this case I can't see any reason to get worked up over thinking either character was fully in the right.
Since Season 1, we've been shown time and again that Kenny comes from a very traditionally Southern mindset as regards the arrangement of family. He comes from a tradition, of which I myself am intimately aware, that says that the mother is the caretaker and the father is the provider and defender. He measures his own worth in terms of keeping his family safe and provided for. Season 1 saw his direct family starve and die the whole way through. The circumstances were entirely out of his control (say what you will about his individual decisions, nobody is ever going to keep people comfortably fed and safe during the zombie apocalypse), but you could say that he failed in his duty as a patriarch, continually. In Season 2, he's still trying to be a good patriarch to his new, adoptive family, and still "failing", because there's simply no way to achieve the goal he's after. Every failure chips away at his sanity, and as he continually degrades, he gets worse and worse at meeting the standards he's set for himself. I'm not even going to try to argue that he wasn't a violent psychopath, but I understand why he got the way he was, and I don't particularly blame him for it.
Jane, on the other hand... I hate to phrase it this way, but the whole "this season was about loyalty, if you side with the backstabbing bitch you get the shitty ending" gives me this creepy GG vibe. Her arc was pretty clearly spelled out that she's scared of forming attachments because this is The Walking Dead, and the odds are really good that everyone you love is going to die because fuck you, happily ever after doesn't exist here. She tries hard to turn Clem to her own way of thinking, but (I guess this might be biased by my experiences) ultimately exactly the opposite happens. She starts to see how she can't just survive on her own all the time and she is going to have to form some attachments at some point. That doesn't mean she's completely turned around by the end of the story, and she's fighting her own flighty instincts all the time. Even the cliffhanger asks the question of whether she'll be able to trust the next new group of outsiders. But the idea that she's just waiting for an opportunity to kill you and take your stuff because she's Chaotic Evil, well... I don't see it.
The writing was, to put it diplomatically, not the best in Season 2. But I take issue with the idea that there was a clear hero and a clear villain in that final decision; it was a clash of two deeply flawed individuals failing to meet their own standards, embarked at the worst possible time for all involved. That's The Walking Dead for you.
You know, I would completely agree with you except,
I feel that when she lies to Kenny about the baby being dead is when she crosses over the line from flawed character to actively screwing with people.
I can't say I agree. Remember that Clem is the person that Jane really cares about, and Jane is also convinced that it's only a matter of time before Clem is the target of one of Kenny's outbursts, with lethal consequences. She wasn't lying about AJ for shits and giggles, she was doing it to provoke Kenny so that Clem would have to accept that Kenny really can't control himself. That doesn't strike me as malicious; at the very least, it's not directly self-serving nor exclusively to the detriment of somebody else.
However, I'll say that the whole scenario falls under the umbrella of "the writing is not the best in Season 2". Even if Jane thought provoking Kenny was the right thing to do for Clem's sake, doing so in the middle of a snowstorm, after your truck's run out of gas, using a baby as a bargaining chip, with Walkers around, was kind of a poor time to pull that kind of stunt.
Yes but also a big reason why it happened then and there is.
Jane saw the writing on the wall. They were heading north, into a blizzard, to a place that might not even exist, just to placate a psychopath. The sane move was to head back south, to known shelter, to known resources. Chances were extreme that the coven of crazy had either been consumed by the herd or run off by them, so it would have been easy to raid for supplies or base in, and considering it has huge infrastructure in the green houses and power, its an ideal place to bear out the winter. Jane did what she did to save everyones life.
Unless the herd that originally attacked the place was still sitting on top of hardware store. Unless the store hadn't burned to the ground. Unless unless. The writing could have been better about supplying reasons to not return because, yeah, the clearly correct answer was to go back south to known shelter.
because heading north into the frozen, blizzard torn wastes where everyone could have frozen to death is obviously the better choice
So yeah had a chance to finally catch up on the entire series over the holidays and it was quite a ride.
About Kenny
I've been siding with Kenny for the entire first season, god knows it's not been easy. I was absolutely overjoyed to see him again in season 2 and it broke my heart knowing that here we came to crap into his new happy life.
But yeah, I have to say that by the time I reached the final decission I have pretty much HAD it with that man. I have spent the majority of 10 episodes trying to survive his crazy plans, one after the other, spending hours of watching people pay the price for whats almost always badly thought out, completely impulsive decission pressed by Kenny. Take Kenny out of the equasion and I think lot of thing could have gone better for almost everyone in the game including his own family. And then on top of that, by the end of season two Kenny had lost his shit completely.
And then theres Jane on the other hand, a perfectly capable survivor in pretty much every situation and a decent human being on top of that. You guys are making no sense in my book, she left her sister? Well yeah after draging her around for god knows how long and in the final moment where it was either both of them or her she chose to live. Don't see the problem, since she clearly could't save her. It was obvious that Kenny was crazy and I would have loved to save him, but ultimately the choice was a pretty easy one for me. Jane has her issues, but overall shes one of the most decent people portrayed in the game.
Season 3:
I'm pretty sure that a protagonist for the next season would be a grown AJ, simply becaue after a timeskip he could be at the same spot no matter what ending you got, while still reflecting your choices in a subtle manner (like wether he has Kennys hat or not). That being said, I'm pretty puzzled by how the writers hid one pregnant woman under the rug, to make us spend the season with a completely different one that noone could care less about. I kind of wish they had handled that situation a bit more elegantly, because I guess this change was only made last minute to give Carver some motivation for his actions.
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Why in the world are they visiting a public bathroom? I assume that all sewage and indoor plumbing no longer works in this world, and any toilet paper/soap would have been looted a long time ago.
At that point, you're better off just going outside. Which I assume that everyone who's survived in a Zombie apocalypse is already used to doing.
Why in the world are they visiting a public bathroom? I assume that all sewage and indoor plumbing no longer works in this world, and any toilet paper/soap would have been looted a long time ago.
At that point, you're better off just going outside. Which I assume that everyone who's survived in a Zombie apocalypse is already used to doing.
I think Omid and Christa wanted a quickie and needed some privacy from Clem. At least, that's how I read it.
Why in the world are they visiting a public bathroom? I assume that all sewage and indoor plumbing no longer works in this world, and any toilet paper/soap would have been looted a long time ago.
At that point, you're better off just going outside. Which I assume that everyone who's survived in a Zombie apocalypse is already used to doing.
Going out in the open means you can be attacked from any side while your attentions are diverted. Ideally that means someone guards you, but then they're watching your business, which is obnoxious at best (yes in dire situations this can be got over, but honestly people still get some privacy for this EVEN in TWD). Meanwhile a public bathroom is just one room to clear, then you can go in safety. Exiting could be bad if you're suddenly surrounded, but it's no more dangerous than entering any other building (which they do very, very frequently).
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Ov3rchargeR.I.P. Mass EffectYou were dead to me for yearsRegistered Userregular
edited January 2015
Since everyone is still discussing this to some capacity I thought I would post these videos, they're a somewhat in depth analysis of Season 2, from Flimsi (the guy who made the season 1 parody videos.) Warning if you're a dumb American like me you might find his accent somewhat hard to decipher. Also fucking spoilers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOTyShw6sbI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIcc7HwBA0w
Anything else is goosery and a dishonor to Lee's memory.
In my game, Kenny was a dishonor to Lee's memory. Lee wouldn't want Clementine to stay with the monster whose obsessions essentially destroyed his group. Kenny had leveled up from Captain Double Standards in Season 1 to General Double Standards in Season 2. My Clementine demoted him to Corporal Punishment. With a bullet.
Also Jane is a pretty great lady.
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Ov3rchargeR.I.P. Mass EffectYou were dead to me for yearsRegistered Userregular
Anything else is goosery and a dishonor to Lee's memory.
In my game, Kenny was a dishonor to Lee's memory. Lee wouldn't want Clementine to stay with the monster whose obsessions essentially destroyed his group. Kenny had leveled up from Captain Double Standards in Season 1 to General Double Standards in Season 2. My Clementine demoted him to Corporal Punishment. With a bullet.
Also Jane is a pretty great lady.
Kenny is the only one in Season 2 who acts even remotely like a real human would in that situation, everyone else is either a flat character or makes no sense as a character, Kenny wins by default of being the only character with a shred of decent writing behind him.
I think Lee no matter what his thoughts on Jane might be would prefer Clementine not be stuck wandering around in a blizzard with a baby and no one to help her. If Lee himself were in that situation sure "Fuck Off" would be a justifiable response since Lee is a grown ass man and quite capable of fighting multiple walkers if it comes to it, whereas Clem as hyper-competent as she is still a child and against Walkers has to either run or take them by surprise, or risk using her gun with a handful of bullets which will probably draw more attention. Add to that wandering around in a blizzard even if you don't like Jane not going with her at that point is straight up suicidal.
As for the writing, I think both characters have fairly well written reasons for their issues, problem is Kenny is completely consumed by his issues. Keep in mind no one had any idea where Wellington was or if it existed, Kenny turning out to be right just means he was extremely lucky, the fact is from the point of view of the rest of the group he was simply forcing them into a death march with no realistic hope of survival.
While I agree the quality of the writing wasn't what it was in season one, I do think the fact that this is still being debated means the writers did something right.
Anything else is goosery and a dishonor to Lee's memory.
In my game, Kenny was a dishonor to Lee's memory. Lee wouldn't want Clementine to stay with the monster whose obsessions essentially destroyed his group. Kenny had leveled up from Captain Double Standards in Season 1 to General Double Standards in Season 2. My Clementine demoted him to Corporal Punishment. With a bullet.
Also Jane is a pretty great lady.
Kenny is the only one in Season 2 who acts even remotely like a real human would in that situation, everyone else is either a flat character or makes no sense as a character, Kenny wins by default of being the only character with a shred of decent writing behind him.
Once you start threatening to murder people for disagreeing with you, my opinion of your "real humanity" declines a bit.
Season 2 writing wasn't great, but I found Jane actually pretty believable. She makes one really terrible judgment call, but her reason for making it is pretty understandable.
Season 2 writing wasn't great, but I found Jane actually pretty believable. She makes one really terrible judgment call, but her reason for making it is pretty understandable.
Jane's entire character is "terrible judgement call". She has no arc, she ends exactly where she started: an abusive, manipulative wretch.
Season 2 writing wasn't great, but I found Jane actually pretty believable. She makes one really terrible judgment call, but her reason for making it is pretty understandable.
Jane's entire character is "terrible judgement call". She has no arc, she ends exactly where she started: an abusive, manipulative wretch.
Kind of a goosey assessment, I think. I mean, "abusive," really? With Kenny "I will beat you to death for defying me" right there?
Jane has a story arc.
She was with her sister, who gave up and opted out. She was a loner who looked out for Number One. She finally met someone who started to heal the wounds left by her sister's passing, and went out on a limb to save that person from attaching herself to someone who was losing more and more control of himself, and who had gotten practically everyone he cared about killed with his stubborn selfishness.
I mean, if, by "ends exactly where she started," you mean
she is in a functional guardian relationship with a younger female, and believes that she has a purpose
then maybe you have a point, but that doesn't mean there wasn't an arc to get there. It's a story about loss, and potentially recovering something of what went missing. Kenny's story is also about loss, and how he pretty much caused it his own damn self.
I liked Jane. She was my favorite new character in season 2.
I honestly found the final decision of the game - in which you choose between Kenny or Jane - to be a really tough decision. I ended up going with Jane, because at that moment, she was the less insane one.
Of course, then she went and broke the trust when I found baby AJ in the car. That was kind of a dick move. But I still think it was the right choice.
I liked Kenny, and I found him to be a sympathetic character. Out of everyone in seasons 1 and 2, he got shit on the hardest of everyone. Yes, he was a hothead and he had a massive, unpredictable temper. But buried under that was also an incredibly sensitive and kind-hearted guy. He was a good man.
When Clem and Kenny were reunited, I had the biggest grin on my face, because I liked Kenny in season 1 also. So when I was forced to choose between him or Jane, it was a tough choice. For me, it was the hardest choice of both seasons combined.
She cuts the jaw off the zombie to prevent it's bite, she's an expert on lathering up in zombie guts and walking through a herd, she's a loner with trust issues...
And Carver felt a lot like The Governor 2.0.
He runs a tight ship with an iron fist, and he's a tyrant with no mercy or tolerance. He's got a band of cronies who do as he says and kill who he says kill, and they turn a blind eye to all the fucked up shit he does.
I felt like season 2 suffered from a lack of creativity in it's characters. I said I liked Jane, and it's true. I did. But at the same time, I also felt like she wasn't very original. I felt like they were trying to give fans of the Comic/TV show a sense of familiarity by providing archetypal characters who are essentially just reskins of existing characters.
Season 1 felt like each character was more unique and much better developed. I had a lot more attachment to the characters of season 1 than I did to most of the group in season 2. And when someone died in season 2, I very rarely cared, because often new characters were introduced and then killed within the same episode.
She cuts the jaw off the zombie to prevent it's bite, she's an expert on lathering up in zombie guts and walking through a herd, she's a loner with trust issues...
And Carver felt a lot like The Governor 2.0.
He runs a tight ship with an iron fist, and he's a tyrant with no mercy or tolerance. He's got a band of cronies who do as he says and kill who he says kill, and they turn a blind eye to all the fucked up shit he does.
I felt like season 2 suffered from a lack of creativity in it's characters. I said I liked Jane, and it's true. I did. But at the same time, I also felt like she wasn't very original. I felt like they were trying to give fans of the Comic/TV show a sense of familiarity by providing archetypal characters who are essentially just reskins of existing characters.
Season 1 felt like each character was more unique and much better developed. I had a lot more attachment to the characters of season 1 than I did to most of the group in season 2. And when someone died in season 2, I very rarely cared, because often new characters were introduced and then killed within the same episode.
Yeah, there was no Doug/Carly equivalent in Season 2. Someone interesting that you didn't have to save, and who could have an impact on your story (like, heck, Carly could end up having the beginnings of a romance with Lee if you saved her, which made her ultimate fate SUPER emotional for me).
Season 2, everybody who died, was pretty much going to die or leave the story anyway, within the same or early the next episode.
I think the biggest issue with Season 2 is that it was a lot more obvious how futile things are given how the first season played out. In the end, all of your decisions there didn't matter, but at least the story of the relationship between Lee and Clem, and it's conclusion, was strong through-line that held things together.
In season 2, you are a lot more aware of how pointless your decisions are, and Clem's relationships with Kenny and Jane pale in comparison with Lee, so the entire season winds up extremely weak. That cracks start to show, and the other parts of the game don't make up for it.
Season 2 writing wasn't great, but I found Jane actually pretty believable. She makes one really terrible judgment call, but her reason for making it is pretty understandable.
Jane's entire character is "terrible judgement call". She has no arc, she ends exactly where she started: an abusive, manipulative wretch.
I wish the thread wasn't so full of statements like this. You would have thought an issue that is this contentious would lead more people to acknowledge that there are reasonable arguments for either side, but that doesn't seem to be happening.
Edit: That was a bit undair to jdarksun. I do disagree strongly with that statement, but the kind of post that was at the top of my mind was more along the lines of
Season 2 writing wasn't great, but I found Jane actually pretty believable. She makes one really terrible judgment call, but her reason for making it is pretty understandable.
Jane's entire character is "terrible judgement call". She has no arc, she ends exactly where she started: an abusive, manipulative wretch.
I wish the thread wasn't so full of statements like this. You would have thought an issue that is this contentious would lead more people to acknowledge that there are reasonable arguments for either side, but that doesn't seem to be happening.
Edit: That was a bit undair to jdarksun. I do disagree strongly with that statement, but the kind of post that was at the top of my mind was more along the lines of
Honestly, what you said didn't seem like much of a joke, and there were no all-important emoticons, so you should probably have expected the responses.
Apparently, according to the player stats, I was one of the few people to
go it alone at the end. Both Jane and Kenny were acting like complete bastards, and from earlier scenes it looked like Clem would be just fine going it alone for a while.
Apparently, according to the player stats, I was one of the few people to
go it alone at the end. Both Jane and Kenny were acting like complete bastards, and from earlier scenes it looked like Clem would be just fine going it alone for a while.
Oh wow. I don't remember that being an option. Interesting!
I went with Jane. Kenny was too nutso, and even he was like "Yeah, you made the right call" after Clem shot him.
Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
Apparently, according to the player stats, I was one of the few people to
go it alone at the end. Both Jane and Kenny were acting like complete bastards, and from earlier scenes it looked like Clem would be just fine going it alone for a while.
Oh wow. I don't remember that being an option. Interesting!
I went with Jane. Kenny was too nutso, and even he was like "Yeah, you made the right call" after Clem shot him.
The way it went down with me, I sided with Jane, because she seemed like less of a bastard at the time. And I let her kill Kenny. But when I found out she hid the baby to purposefully make Kenny go bonkers, I told her to fuck off.
Looking at story wikis, I think it's possible to tell Kenny to fuck off after he kills Jane too.
Ohhhh right. I remember "fuck off" being an option now. I didn't think it would play out that way, though. I think whoever posted it a while ago about season 3
having you play as AJ in a large time jump is probably accurate. Seems like the endings are too varied to pick up right where season 2 ends
Also, side note: If I make a post immediately after you Cloud, it is unintentionally the best thing!
Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
Just started playing this over the weekend, On like episode 4 of season 2. And that's where I'll leave it until I'm caught up since people are posting spoilers without tags.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Ok I liked I'll post one more thing. Anyone else want less game elements? Like I swear my main issue with season 2 is the new qte stuff, I honestly don't need them, just give me more talking parts, thats what I enjoy the most.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
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She does NOT rob Arvo if Clem decides not to, Arvo is lying later. Jane threatens him not to come back, that is all.
Troy is implied to be a fuckin' rapist, dude. He even skeeves on Sarah and Clementine in the intro to In Harm's Way. If he's gonna be getting what he wants from Jane either way, I do not begrudge her trying to take control of that situation in the only way she can. The fact she shoots him in the dick should clue you in that she wasn't having a fun time with Troy and then betraying him, she was getting revenge on a rapist. It also leads to the dumb moment where she has sex with Luke - trying to take back control and choice in her life.
Jane's got problems, but I have a much easier time trusting her than Kenny. She's way more stable. It'd be harder to convince her to partner up with you, but that partnership would be a whole lot sturdier than anything Kenny can offer.
Arguing the specifics of the problems I have with Kenny's style of leadership is made a bit problematic by his ending. His final, heroic sacrifice seems to redeem him to a lot of people, in a "the ends justify the means" sort of way. That said, I can't help thinking about it in what if's.
What if Kenny hadn't treated Arvo the way he did? It seemed clear that Bonnie and Mike left because they were terrified of Kenny, and because they wanted to save the boy. Or what if Kenny had actually listened to the wishes of Clem and Jane, and not kept threatening the latter with violence? And the big one, what if the city in the north (forgot the name) wasn't there? What if his desperate, fervent dream had been just that?
In some fashion, his story ends with redemption either way you go. For me, in that moment, I felt certain that if I just stood by and watched as he killed again it would not be the last time. We would certainly meet people again, and sooner or later he would find a reason to kill them. I did not believe in his dream of a city to the north. I wanted to save Jane, and myself.
I was pissed as hell at Jane afterwards. Livid! For a while I felt certain that my Clementine would never have been able to forgive her. But after a lot of thinking I have come to consider her as loyal as Kenny, just in a different way. She knew her stunt might kill her, but was willing to risk it to make Clem see just how dangerous Kenny had become. She was willing to die for you, just as he was. The difference is that even though Jane is irresponsible, reckless, and sometimes selfish, she is still sane. Kenny isn't. He went through more than anyone could have been expected to bear, and it broke him. It's awfully sad, and I am happy for those of you who were able to play in a world where he could sacrifice himself for something worthwhile, but that was not the way my story went.
Since Season 1, we've been shown time and again that Kenny comes from a very traditionally Southern mindset as regards the arrangement of family. He comes from a tradition, of which I myself am intimately aware, that says that the mother is the caretaker and the father is the provider and defender. He measures his own worth in terms of keeping his family safe and provided for. Season 1 saw his direct family starve and die the whole way through. The circumstances were entirely out of his control (say what you will about his individual decisions, nobody is ever going to keep people comfortably fed and safe during the zombie apocalypse), but you could say that he failed in his duty as a patriarch, continually. In Season 2, he's still trying to be a good patriarch to his new, adoptive family, and still "failing", because there's simply no way to achieve the goal he's after. Every failure chips away at his sanity, and as he continually degrades, he gets worse and worse at meeting the standards he's set for himself. I'm not even going to try to argue that he wasn't a violent psychopath, but I understand why he got the way he was, and I don't particularly blame him for it.
Jane, on the other hand... I hate to phrase it this way, but the whole "this season was about loyalty, if you side with the backstabbing bitch you get the shitty ending" gives me this creepy GG vibe. Her arc was pretty clearly spelled out that she's scared of forming attachments because this is The Walking Dead, and the odds are really good that everyone you love is going to die because fuck you, happily ever after doesn't exist here. She tries hard to turn Clem to her own way of thinking, but (I guess this might be biased by my experiences) ultimately exactly the opposite happens. She starts to see how she can't just survive on her own all the time and she is going to have to form some attachments at some point. That doesn't mean she's completely turned around by the end of the story, and she's fighting her own flighty instincts all the time. Even the cliffhanger asks the question of whether she'll be able to trust the next new group of outsiders. But the idea that she's just waiting for an opportunity to kill you and take your stuff because she's Chaotic Evil, well... I don't see it.
The writing was, to put it diplomatically, not the best in Season 2. But I take issue with the idea that there was a clear hero and a clear villain in that final decision; it was a clash of two deeply flawed individuals failing to meet their own standards, embarked at the worst possible time for all involved. That's The Walking Dead for you.
You know, I would completely agree with you except,
However, I'll say that the whole scenario falls under the umbrella of "the writing is not the best in Season 2". Even if Jane thought provoking Kenny was the right thing to do for Clem's sake, doing so in the middle of a snowstorm, after your truck's run out of gas, using a baby as a bargaining chip, with Walkers around, was kind of a poor time to pull that kind of stunt.
Yes but also a big reason why it happened then and there is.
About Kenny
But yeah, I have to say that by the time I reached the final decission I have pretty much HAD it with that man. I have spent the majority of 10 episodes trying to survive his crazy plans, one after the other, spending hours of watching people pay the price for whats almost always badly thought out, completely impulsive decission pressed by Kenny. Take Kenny out of the equasion and I think lot of thing could have gone better for almost everyone in the game including his own family. And then on top of that, by the end of season two Kenny had lost his shit completely.
And then theres Jane on the other hand, a perfectly capable survivor in pretty much every situation and a decent human being on top of that. You guys are making no sense in my book, she left her sister? Well yeah after draging her around for god knows how long and in the final moment where it was either both of them or her she chose to live. Don't see the problem, since she clearly could't save her. It was obvious that Kenny was crazy and I would have loved to save him, but ultimately the choice was a pretty easy one for me. Jane has her issues, but overall shes one of the most decent people portrayed in the game.
Season 3:
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Why in the world are they visiting a public bathroom? I assume that all sewage and indoor plumbing no longer works in this world, and any toilet paper/soap would have been looted a long time ago.
At that point, you're better off just going outside. Which I assume that everyone who's survived in a Zombie apocalypse is already used to doing.
I think Omid and Christa wanted a quickie and needed some privacy from Clem. At least, that's how I read it.
Going out in the open means you can be attacked from any side while your attentions are diverted. Ideally that means someone guards you, but then they're watching your business, which is obnoxious at best (yes in dire situations this can be got over, but honestly people still get some privacy for this EVEN in TWD). Meanwhile a public bathroom is just one room to clear, then you can go in safety. Exiting could be bad if you're suddenly surrounded, but it's no more dangerous than entering any other building (which they do very, very frequently).
There are only two acceptable endings
In my game, Kenny was a dishonor to Lee's memory. Lee wouldn't want Clementine to stay with the monster whose obsessions essentially destroyed his group. Kenny had leveled up from Captain Double Standards in Season 1 to General Double Standards in Season 2. My Clementine demoted him to Corporal Punishment. With a bullet.
Also Jane is a pretty great lady.
As for the writing, I think both characters have fairly well written reasons for their issues, problem is Kenny is completely consumed by his issues. Keep in mind no one had any idea where Wellington was or if it existed, Kenny turning out to be right just means he was extremely lucky, the fact is from the point of view of the rest of the group he was simply forcing them into a death march with no realistic hope of survival.
While I agree the quality of the writing wasn't what it was in season one, I do think the fact that this is still being debated means the writers did something right.
Once you start threatening to murder people for disagreeing with you, my opinion of your "real humanity" declines a bit.
Season 2 writing wasn't great, but I found Jane actually pretty believable. She makes one really terrible judgment call, but her reason for making it is pretty understandable.
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Kind of a goosey assessment, I think. I mean, "abusive," really? With Kenny "I will beat you to death for defying me" right there?
Jane has a story arc.
I mean, if, by "ends exactly where she started," you mean
Of course, then she went and broke the trust when I found baby AJ in the car. That was kind of a dick move. But I still think it was the right choice.
I liked Kenny, and I found him to be a sympathetic character. Out of everyone in seasons 1 and 2, he got shit on the hardest of everyone. Yes, he was a hothead and he had a massive, unpredictable temper. But buried under that was also an incredibly sensitive and kind-hearted guy. He was a good man.
When Clem and Kenny were reunited, I had the biggest grin on my face, because I liked Kenny in season 1 also. So when I was forced to choose between him or Jane, it was a tough choice. For me, it was the hardest choice of both seasons combined.
And Carver felt a lot like The Governor 2.0.
I felt like season 2 suffered from a lack of creativity in it's characters. I said I liked Jane, and it's true. I did. But at the same time, I also felt like she wasn't very original. I felt like they were trying to give fans of the Comic/TV show a sense of familiarity by providing archetypal characters who are essentially just reskins of existing characters.
Season 1 felt like each character was more unique and much better developed. I had a lot more attachment to the characters of season 1 than I did to most of the group in season 2. And when someone died in season 2, I very rarely cared, because often new characters were introduced and then killed within the same episode.
Season 2, everybody who died, was pretty much going to die or leave the story anyway, within the same or early the next episode.
In season 2, you are a lot more aware of how pointless your decisions are, and Clem's relationships with Kenny and Jane pale in comparison with Lee, so the entire season winds up extremely weak. That cracks start to show, and the other parts of the game don't make up for it.
I wish the thread wasn't so full of statements like this. You would have thought an issue that is this contentious would lead more people to acknowledge that there are reasonable arguments for either side, but that doesn't seem to be happening.
Edit: That was a bit undair to jdarksun. I do disagree strongly with that statement, but the kind of post that was at the top of my mind was more along the lines of
Really dude? You are going to just go ahead and say that anyone who disagrees with you is a goose and a traitor to the previous protagonist?
Just... god damn it Kenny supporters.
It was a joke dude cool it.
Internet contextualization strikes again.
Honestly, what you said didn't seem like much of a joke, and there were no all-important emoticons, so you should probably have expected the responses.
Oh wow. I don't remember that being an option. Interesting!
Looking at story wikis, I think it's possible to tell Kenny to fuck off after he kills Jane too.
Also, side note: If I make a post immediately after you Cloud, it is unintentionally the best thing!
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