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[GW2]Making a new thread for the BWE. See you guys on Aspenwood soon!

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Posts

  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Gustavo M wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    How does it make you more disappointed?

    It makes me think that PvP does not require any sort of tactic or strategy, since hey; You can rip off a necromancer In two hits.

    Alright, yeah, if you're going to approach this from a WoW "Hey lets all stand perfect still and hit each other" perspective then, yes, it's overpowered. However, if you're not going to dodge or do anything to defend yourself except try to shoot them with your wand, you really deserve that 10k crit until someone teaches you to friggin MOVE!
    Buddies wrote: »
    xgalaxy wrote: »
    Gustavo M wrote: »
    Well gentleman, I just saw a video that dropped my desire to play Guild Wars 2 by half:
    Spoiler:

    If PvP resumes into a 1 second battle against others players on release... I'll be really dissapointed.

    zomg guys!
    I just saw a video that was clearly sped up and this warrior was dropping players in less than a second.
    The game is imbalanced! Nerfs nerfs for all!

    Did you watch the video? It isn't sped up. That build really does that much damage that fast. But doesn't come without it's drawbacks.

    here is the second part that shows him using the build. Not sped up at all. The people he fights aren't the greatest, but aren't super total scrubs either given the amount of time people had with the game over the weekend.



    He has a real nice fight with a pretty good Thief. but LOL EVISCERATE!
    9 out of every 10 players are not going to be anything but a scrub in PvP when they've only had 3 days to play it.
    Beta!
    All hail!

    Now leak us some info already!

    Dedwrekka on
  • shrykeshryke Registered User regular
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    xgalaxy wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    By the time she was done with all the spells just on the staff, she was fairly bored with the character.

    This just doesn't really fly with me.
    Are you sure your girlfriend likes playing MMO's?
    Is she bored with a Mage before level 10 in WoW because she had to spend, what is certainly a longer period of time, leveling up and learning new abilities for her mage?
    Well, she's only played with me since Kunark era EQ, so she doesn't have QUITE the experience I do...
    Tell the truth, yes, she got bored of WoW mages early. They very well model the early DnD model of weak and boring early, godlike power endgame.
    The long ramp up of a new character is a repeated flaw in MMOs. It's usually handwaved away with "well, the experienced player will breeze through it", but I don't see why it needs to be there at all. Already have a max level character? Cool, start at a point where the character has most of their abilities and have at it. There's no need to force players to do something not fun, ever.

    Which is exactly why people who buy max level characters in MMOs are totally great at their new class.

    Straw man. A good player who buys a max level character is bad for far less time than it would take to level the character themselves.

    You don't seem to know what a strawman actually is.

    And the point is that your supposition about the skills of even an experienced player is wrong. Anyone thrown headfirst into everything about a new class has a steep and nasty learning curve ahead.

    A basically universal point of game design is to avoid this.

  • shrykeshryke Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Draygo wrote: »
    weapons were unlocked by scoring the killing hit on an enemy
    I wish it was participatin based and followed the model of the rest of the game that would probably fix the issues of weapon unlocking entirely with me.

    Weapon unlocks are participation based. As long as you get a hit on the enemy, when it dies you unlock a bit more.

    I unlocked my guardians staff in literally like 3 minutes because I was in the middle of a DE with a huge zerg against a zerg of mobs and I just spammed the first skill which is an AoE.

    shryke on
  • BuddiesBuddies Registered User regular
    I haven't played a MOBA game in a long time, mostly because they are not good for my bloodpressure, but do a good majority of teams still always have a "Carry" hero? When I played them, from DoTA 5.somethingwiththesuperOPGorgon up to HoN's release, every serious team had a Carry/Jungler. A Hero that was pretty bad in the early game and generally on its own, but if aloud to get nice items in late game would output so much DPS that left unchecked would Carry his team to victory. Are there still strategies that revolve around making and protecting these carrys into late game?

    Cause that is what I see these Eviscerate/Greatsword Warrior, Power/Precision Backstab Thief, and Axe&Horn/Greatsword Rangers. They are the carry for your team. They output such ridiculous damage, and your job as their teammate is to make it so they can output that damage. Are they OP? Yea in PUB games, just like in those MOBA games where good players on Carrys could join a random game by themselves and stomp the shit out of the other team. But as part of a team against another team that has their own or knows how to deal with it? I don't know yet, because one of the strategies to deal with a carry hero in LoL is to shut it down early game. In GW2, you can't stop that Eviscerate Warrior from being able to do 20k damage in one hit... he comes equipped with it, so the only strategy left is to CC and focus him down.

    I'm trying to get over the fact that some professions can't be the carry on a team. Hopefully there are multiple viable roles for each profession.

  • PeccaviPeccavi oh... oh my!Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Draygo wrote: »
    weapons were unlocked by scoring the killing hit on an enemy
    I wish it was participatin based and followed the model of the rest of the game that would probably fix the issues of weapon unlocking entirely with me.

    Weapon unlocks are participation based. As long as you get a hit on the enemy, when it dies you unlock a bit more.

    I unlocked my guardians staff in literally like 3 minutes because I was in the middle of a DE with a huge zerg against a zerg of mobs and I just spammed the first skill which is an AoE.

    Wow, I guess using the autoattack really taught you a lot about skills 2-5. Good thing the game eased you into that.

    kvhn.png
  • VoroVoro Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    shryke wrote: »
    Draygo wrote: »
    weapons were unlocked by scoring the killing hit on an enemy
    I wish it was participatin based and followed the model of the rest of the game that would probably fix the issues of weapon unlocking entirely with me.

    Weapon unlocks are participation based. As long as you get a hit on the enemy, when it dies you unlock a bit more.

    I unlocked my guardians staff in literally like 3 minutes because I was in the middle of a DE with a huge zerg against a zerg of mobs and I just spammed the first skill which is an AoE.

    Some events (like the initial human farm one) have very limited spawns. This means a lot of participation is watering plants, feeding animals, extinguishing bales of hay, etc. I believe that was the intent. Participating in an event should help unlock skills even if you aren't fighting.

    My solutions would be: Off-hand / 4&5 receive credit towards their unlock even if 2&3 are still locked. Elementalists get unlocks for all attunements of their current weapon. So if you unlock #2 while using fire, #2 is unlocked if you switch to air, earth, or water.

    Edit: Fix'd

    Voro on
    XBL GamerTag: Comrade Nexus
  • shrykeshryke Registered User regular
    Peccavi wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Draygo wrote: »
    weapons were unlocked by scoring the killing hit on an enemy
    I wish it was participatin based and followed the model of the rest of the game that would probably fix the issues of weapon unlocking entirely with me.

    Weapon unlocks are participation based. As long as you get a hit on the enemy, when it dies you unlock a bit more.

    I unlocked my guardians staff in literally like 3 minutes because I was in the middle of a DE with a huge zerg against a zerg of mobs and I just spammed the first skill which is an AoE.

    Wow, I guess using the autoattack really taught you a lot about skills 2-5. Good thing the game eased you into that.

    Wow, it's like not every system is capable of working perfectly. That's totally a reason to remove all the good things it does because it doesn't quite work as well as it should occasionally!

  • MadpoetMadpoet Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    xgalaxy wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    By the time she was done with all the spells just on the staff, she was fairly bored with the character.

    This just doesn't really fly with me.
    Are you sure your girlfriend likes playing MMO's?
    Is she bored with a Mage before level 10 in WoW because she had to spend, what is certainly a longer period of time, leveling up and learning new abilities for her mage?
    Well, she's only played with me since Kunark era EQ, so she doesn't have QUITE the experience I do...
    Tell the truth, yes, she got bored of WoW mages early. They very well model the early DnD model of weak and boring early, godlike power endgame.
    The long ramp up of a new character is a repeated flaw in MMOs. It's usually handwaved away with "well, the experienced player will breeze through it", but I don't see why it needs to be there at all. Already have a max level character? Cool, start at a point where the character has most of their abilities and have at it. There's no need to force players to do something not fun, ever.

    Which is exactly why people who buy max level characters in MMOs are totally great at their new class.

    Straw man. A good player who buys a max level character is bad for far less time than it would take to level the character themselves.

    You don't seem to know what a strawman actually is.

    And the point is that your supposition about the skills of even an experienced player is wrong. Anyone thrown headfirst into everything about a new class has a steep and nasty learning curve ahead.

    A basically universal point of game design is to avoid this.

    High level players trying to play another class at high level is not the same as high level players being given access to a medium level character. You are using this superficially similar case to refute my stronger argument. This is a straw man. I was being polite and not calling it a non-fucking-sequitor.

    Your last line is complete bullshit. Fight games rarely lock away moves. You are given the full set, and you learn them through trial, error, and gamefaqs. God of War/DMC/Bayonetta let you unlock weapons, but you're usually give almost the complete set of maneuvers to start with. Sure, an FPS makes you wait to unlock a weapon, but they'll almost always let you use secondary fire modes or zoom immediately. Driving games give you a choice between automatic and manual from the get go, or at least I'm pretty sure Pole Position did. Starting weak and gaining power is an RPG element, and can be used to tell a story, but it isn't necessary as a game element. The vast majority of people are not pants on head retarded (until massed in large groups or commenting on a YouTube video).

    I'm not saying to throw everyone into open world PVP where mastery of every ability is life and death. I'm saying this mechanic is not necessary to ease a player into the systems - they will do it themselves.

  • BuddiesBuddies Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Gustavo M wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    How does it make you more disappointed?

    It makes me think that PvP does not require any sort of tactic or strategy, since hey; You can rip off a necromancer In two hits.

    Alright, yeah, if you're going to approach this from a WoW "Hey lets all stand perfect still and hit each other" perspective then, yes, it's overpowered. However, if you're not going to dodge or do anything to defend yourself except try to shoot them with your wand, you really deserve that 10k crit until someone teaches you to friggin MOVE!
    Buddies wrote: »
    xgalaxy wrote: »
    Gustavo M wrote: »
    Well gentleman, I just saw a video that dropped my desire to play Guild Wars 2 by half:
    Spoiler:

    If PvP resumes into a 1 second battle against others players on release... I'll be really dissapointed.

    zomg guys!
    I just saw a video that was clearly sped up and this warrior was dropping players in less than a second.
    The game is imbalanced! Nerfs nerfs for all!

    Did you watch the video? It isn't sped up. That build really does that much damage that fast. But doesn't come without it's drawbacks.

    here is the second part that shows him using the build. Not sped up at all. The people he fights aren't the greatest, but aren't super total scrubs either given the amount of time people had with the game over the weekend.



    He has a real nice fight with a pretty good Thief. but LOL EVISCERATE!
    9 out of every 10 players are not going to be anything but a scrub in PvP when they've only had 3 days to play it.

    Scrub by what definition? With that logic you could argue that if Starcraft 3 were to come out tomorrow and noone had ever played it before then someone from the SC 2 Bronze league would have an even chance against someone in the SC2 Master league. I wouldn't put money on that Bronze player.

    GW2 does not have any crazy new mechanics people have never seen before. You can easily tell the difference between someone just playing for fun, someone actually trying to win, and the really talented people. And many other little classifications in between.

    Edit: I should clarify what I mean by "scrub" since I used it first. Someone that doesn't or refuses to learn from mistakes. Ones that rolled into the sPvP over the weekend and didn't change their traits/weapons/skills the entire time. There were these people.. they may have played only a few games. That Warrior video has some decent fights in it against people that showed that they at least had a clue on what they were doing.

    Buddies on
  • PeccaviPeccavi oh... oh my!Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Peccavi wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Draygo wrote: »
    weapons were unlocked by scoring the killing hit on an enemy
    I wish it was participatin based and followed the model of the rest of the game that would probably fix the issues of weapon unlocking entirely with me.

    Weapon unlocks are participation based. As long as you get a hit on the enemy, when it dies you unlock a bit more.

    I unlocked my guardians staff in literally like 3 minutes because I was in the middle of a DE with a huge zerg against a zerg of mobs and I just spammed the first skill which is an AoE.

    Wow, I guess using the autoattack really taught you a lot about skills 2-5. Good thing the game eased you into that.

    Wow, it's like not every system is capable of working perfectly. That's totally a reason to remove all the good things it does because it doesn't quite work as well as it should occasionally!

    It doesn't do anything good. When I started a thief and went straight to the mists, did I first autoattack 5 training trainers, then 10, .... No, I experimented with the weapons and skills, all of them, at my own pace. The fact that every game does this isn't an argument, because Anet keeps advertising that Gw2 cuts out the bullshit that's there because "every other game does this."

    kvhn.png
  • shrykeshryke Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    xgalaxy wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    By the time she was done with all the spells just on the staff, she was fairly bored with the character.

    This just doesn't really fly with me.
    Are you sure your girlfriend likes playing MMO's?
    Is she bored with a Mage before level 10 in WoW because she had to spend, what is certainly a longer period of time, leveling up and learning new abilities for her mage?
    Well, she's only played with me since Kunark era EQ, so she doesn't have QUITE the experience I do...
    Tell the truth, yes, she got bored of WoW mages early. They very well model the early DnD model of weak and boring early, godlike power endgame.
    The long ramp up of a new character is a repeated flaw in MMOs. It's usually handwaved away with "well, the experienced player will breeze through it", but I don't see why it needs to be there at all. Already have a max level character? Cool, start at a point where the character has most of their abilities and have at it. There's no need to force players to do something not fun, ever.

    Which is exactly why people who buy max level characters in MMOs are totally great at their new class.

    Straw man. A good player who buys a max level character is bad for far less time than it would take to level the character themselves.

    You don't seem to know what a strawman actually is.

    And the point is that your supposition about the skills of even an experienced player is wrong. Anyone thrown headfirst into everything about a new class has a steep and nasty learning curve ahead.

    A basically universal point of game design is to avoid this.

    High level players trying to play another class at high level is not the same as high level players being given access to a medium level character. You are using this superficially similar case to refute my stronger argument. This is a straw man. I was being polite and not calling it a non-fucking-sequitor.

    No, it's dead on point no matter how much you piss and moan about it.

    Drop an experienced player into a max level class he's had no experience with and he will play terribly. Because he doesn't know anything about the class because he hasn't been eased into it by leveling the class up. They will eventually figure it out probably, but they too will take time to acclimate to the new playstyle, learn the new abilities and all that shit. The same stuff unlocking things one at a time does, just in a far less controlled fashion.

    The weapon unlock system, like the leveling system itself, is designed to ease you into the game mechanics in a controlled manner so you (hopefully) aren't overwhelmed with things and learn stuff properly. Weapon unlocks are no different then traits not being available till lvl 10 or utility skills unlocking 1 at a time or any of that shit that you see in pretty much any MMO.

    If you wanna talk about silly comparisons, lets look at comparing unlocking a new weapon, a process that takes a matter of minutes, to leveling a new character, a process that takes days.


    Your last line is complete bullshit. Fight games rarely lock away moves. You are given the full set, and you learn them through trial, error, and gamefaqs. God of War/DMC/Bayonetta let you unlock weapons, but you're usually give almost the complete set of maneuvers to start with. Sure, an FPS makes you wait to unlock a weapon, but they'll almost always let you use secondary fire modes or zoom immediately. Driving games give you a choice between automatic and manual from the get go, or at least I'm pretty sure Pole Position did. Starting weak and gaining power is an RPG element, and can be used to tell a story, but it isn't necessary as a game element. The vast majority of people are not pants on head retarded (until massed in large groups or commenting on a YouTube video).

    I'm not saying to throw everyone into open world PVP where mastery of every ability is life and death. I'm saying this mechanic is not necessary to ease a player into the systems - they will do it themselves.

    FPS lock away weapons all the time in single-player. God of War games or action games or the like also slowly ramp up your arsenal as the game goes on, as you already touched on. Fighting games tend to lock away specific characeters at the start. Even a Mario game only slowly introduces new powerups over the course of the game, even if "Jump" and "Spin" (in 3D mario) and your various standard moves are available right from the start.

    And, more applicably, RPGs are more or less based on slowly introducing the player to newer and greater powers as they go along.

    Having a game ease you into increasing complexity as you proceed through it is almost universal. You can say "they will do it themselves" but both experience and the design of most games disagree. You very much want to control the players initial experiences as they learn the various systems of your game.

    shryke on
  • charrbroiledcharrbroiled Registered User regular
    Bloodsheed wrote: »
    I think everyone needs to take a step back, breathe, and realize what is happening in this thread.

    We have reached the Anger stage of withdrawal. We are all angry we are not still playing right now. Very angry. And we are taking this out on each other.

    So shut the hell up, you geese, and hug so we can get to acceptance.

    4d93c4f1d9d6247c.png
    Guild Wars 2: Tyreh, asura Warrior
  • PeccaviPeccavi oh... oh my!Registered User regular
    Picking up a weapon I haven't used before should be exciting. "Woohoo! 5 new skills!" Instead, it's "Great, now I have to autoattack a bunch of shitty enemies before I can even use the thing properly."

    kvhn.png
  • shrykeshryke Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Peccavi wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Peccavi wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Draygo wrote: »
    weapons were unlocked by scoring the killing hit on an enemy
    I wish it was participatin based and followed the model of the rest of the game that would probably fix the issues of weapon unlocking entirely with me.

    Weapon unlocks are participation based. As long as you get a hit on the enemy, when it dies you unlock a bit more.

    I unlocked my guardians staff in literally like 3 minutes because I was in the middle of a DE with a huge zerg against a zerg of mobs and I just spammed the first skill which is an AoE.

    Wow, I guess using the autoattack really taught you a lot about skills 2-5. Good thing the game eased you into that.

    Wow, it's like not every system is capable of working perfectly. That's totally a reason to remove all the good things it does because it doesn't quite work as well as it should occasionally!

    It doesn't do anything good. When I started a thief and went straight to the mists, did I first autoattack 5 training trainers, then 10, .... No, I experimented with the weapons and skills, all of them, at my own pace. The fact that every game does this isn't an argument, because Anet keeps advertising that Gw2 cuts out the bullshit that's there because "every other game does this."

    This doesn't make any sense.

    Also, it would appear A.net don't actually agree with your point since they put weapon unlocking into the game like a year or something ago to deal with the issue of easing players into the game. And are, in fact, according to their forum posts they are looking in to adding even more to the tutorial process.

    Teaching your player to play your game in a controlled manner is not bullshit, it's good game design.

    Peccavi wrote: »
    Picking up a weapon I haven't used before should be exciting. "Woohoo! 5 new skills!" Instead, it's "Great, now I have to autoattack a bunch of shitty enemies before I can even use the thing properly."

    You have to autoattack like 3 before you unlock your second skill.

    And there's still excitement. Unlocking new things and the excitement that brings is like the core design of RPGs and RPG-like systems in other games.

    shryke on
  • TraitorMagnusTraitorMagnus Registered User
    I gave Anet feedback to just unlock all the weapon skills for a player when they get to level 3 or 4. I think it will still get new players experience with how the skills are set up without forcing higher-level characters to go grind for skill unlocks because they got a weapon later or whatever.

  • BuddiesBuddies Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Peccavi wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Peccavi wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Draygo wrote: »
    weapons were unlocked by scoring the killing hit on an enemy
    I wish it was participatin based and followed the model of the rest of the game that would probably fix the issues of weapon unlocking entirely with me.

    Weapon unlocks are participation based. As long as you get a hit on the enemy, when it dies you unlock a bit more.

    I unlocked my guardians staff in literally like 3 minutes because I was in the middle of a DE with a huge zerg against a zerg of mobs and I just spammed the first skill which is an AoE.

    Wow, I guess using the autoattack really taught you a lot about skills 2-5. Good thing the game eased you into that.

    Wow, it's like not every system is capable of working perfectly. That's totally a reason to remove all the good things it does because it doesn't quite work as well as it should occasionally!

    It doesn't do anything good. When I started a thief and went straight to the mists, did I first autoattack 5 training trainers, then 10, .... No, I experimented with the weapons and skills, all of them, at my own pace. The fact that every game does this isn't an argument, because Anet keeps advertising that Gw2 cuts out the bullshit that's there because "every other game does this."

    This doesn't make any sense.

    Also, it would appear A.net don't actually agree with your point since they put weapon unlocking into the game like a year or something ago to deal with the issue of easing players into the game. And are, in fact, according to their forum posts they are looking in to adding even more to the tutorial process.

    Teaching your player to play your game in a controlled manner is not bullshit, it's good game design.

    Personally, I prefer the method of giving you all the abilities from the start and introducing the concepts behind them slowly. Like your Mario example.

    We get that unlock satisfaction from skills and traits. I personally don't see why we need it in our basic attacks. You only start out with 1 weapon, so it's not like you have 20 abilities to learn right off the bat.

  • AvynteAvynte Registered User regular
    They really need to add some kind of dodge tutorial though. Just some long hallway with big bold letters saying "double tap direction to not stand in the fire!"

    ECOED.jpg
  • World as MythWorld as Myth Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    I dodge even when there's no reason to. I dodge my way into vendors to sell stuff. Dodging is the new jumping.

    Over the weekend I dodged my way into the door of an orphanage, crashed into the wall, and leveled from discovery experience. Then I dodged the heck outta there.

    World as Myth on
    kQwcZLJ.png
  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary Engaging in general japery.Registered User regular
    I dodge even when there's no reason to. I dodge my way into vendors to sell stuff. Dodging is the new jumping.

    Same here. I almost did it too much to the point of it getting me killed in the Ashford jumping puzzle. :(

    It's just so addictive!

    ETWeMHa.jpgSteam/Origin/PSN: Corehealer / Core's Streamtastical Livestream check.php?c=Corehealer (Streaming whenever something interesting happens). / FFXIV Brain piano.
  • AvynteAvynte Registered User regular
    WaM please don't let them take away /sit jumping <img class=" title=":cry:" class="bbcode_smiley" />

    ECOED.jpg
  • PeccaviPeccavi oh... oh my!Registered User regular
    Better tutorials are great! A lot of things, like crafting and dodging, weren't well presented in game and I had to look up the some of it online. But they need a "No thanks, I understand how to do this already" button.
    I gave Anet feedback to just unlock all the weapon skills for a player when they get to level 3 or 4. I think it will still get new players experience with how the skills are set up without forcing higher-level characters to go grind for skill unlocks because they got a weapon later or whatever.

    And I would be fine with this. But when I'm levels 8/9/10, and I'm finally starting to fight interesting enemies/do interesting events, I don't want to have to say, "Welp, back to the bear shrine so i can ungimp this weapon and see how it works."

    kvhn.png
  • shrykeshryke Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    I dodge even when there's no reason to. I dodge my way into vendors to sell stuff. Dodging is the new jumping.

    Over the weekend I dodged my way into the door of an orphanage, crashed into the wall, and leveled from discovery experience. Then I dodged the heck outta there.

    Bah, I've been rolling everywhere since like Zelda. Or at least Bastion.


    Funnily, I think Bastion is the game GW2 reminds me of most wrt combat.

    shryke on
  • SarksusSarksus playing tennisRegistered User regular
    I dodge toward enemies so I can hit them before other people!

  • World as MythWorld as Myth Registered User regular
    Avynte wrote: »
    WaM please don't let them take away /sit jumping <img class=" title=":cry:" class="bbcode_smiley" />

    Apparently even wonderful bugs are still bugs. <img class=" title=":cry:" class="bbcode_smiley" />

    kQwcZLJ.png
  • shrykeshryke Registered User regular
    Sarksus wrote: »
    I dodge toward enemies so I can hit them before other people!

    I keep having to stop myself from doing that.

  • AvynteAvynte Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    It would be nice if anet made the existence of the first weapon vendor a bigger deal for players. Basing your unlocks on drops/karma is going to kill your speed.

    Doing an event or two then buying all your class weapons makes the process much less painful but it's not intuitive at all.

    Avynte on
    ECOED.jpg
  • MadpoetMadpoet Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    xgalaxy wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    By the time she was done with all the spells just on the staff, she was fairly bored with the character.

    This just doesn't really fly with me.
    Are you sure your girlfriend likes playing MMO's?
    Is she bored with a Mage before level 10 in WoW because she had to spend, what is certainly a longer period of time, leveling up and learning new abilities for her mage?
    Well, she's only played with me since Kunark era EQ, so she doesn't have QUITE the experience I do...
    Tell the truth, yes, she got bored of WoW mages early. They very well model the early DnD model of weak and boring early, godlike power endgame.
    The long ramp up of a new character is a repeated flaw in MMOs. It's usually handwaved away with "well, the experienced player will breeze through it", but I don't see why it needs to be there at all. Already have a max level character? Cool, start at a point where the character has most of their abilities and have at it. There's no need to force players to do something not fun, ever.

    Which is exactly why people who buy max level characters in MMOs are totally great at their new class.

    Straw man. A good player who buys a max level character is bad for far less time than it would take to level the character themselves.

    You don't seem to know what a strawman actually is.

    And the point is that your supposition about the skills of even an experienced player is wrong. Anyone thrown headfirst into everything about a new class has a steep and nasty learning curve ahead.

    A basically universal point of game design is to avoid this.

    High level players trying to play another class at high level is not the same as high level players being given access to a medium level character. You are using this superficially similar case to refute my stronger argument. This is a straw man. I was being polite and not calling it a non-fucking-sequitor.

    No, it's dead on point no matter how much you piss and moan about it.

    Drop an experienced player into a max level class he's had no experience with and he will play terribly. Because he doesn't know anything about the class because he hasn't been eased into it by leveling the class up. They will eventually figure it out probably, but they too will take time to acclimate to the new playstyle, learn the new abilities and all that shit. The same stuff unlocking things one at a time does, just in a far less controlled fashion.

    The weapon unlock system, like the leveling system itself, is designed to ease you into the game mechanics in a controlled manner so you (hopefully) aren't overwhelmed with things and learn stuff properly. Weapon unlocks are no different then traits not being available till lvl 10 or utility skills unlocking 1 at a time or any of that shit that you see in pretty much any MMO.

    If you wanna talk about silly comparisons, lets look at comparing unlocking a new weapon, a process that takes a matter of minutes, to leveling a new character, a process that takes days.


    Your last line is complete bullshit. Fight games rarely lock away moves. You are given the full set, and you learn them through trial, error, and gamefaqs. God of War/DMC/Bayonetta let you unlock weapons, but you're usually give almost the complete set of maneuvers to start with. Sure, an FPS makes you wait to unlock a weapon, but they'll almost always let you use secondary fire modes or zoom immediately. Driving games give you a choice between automatic and manual from the get go, or at least I'm pretty sure Pole Position did. Starting weak and gaining power is an RPG element, and can be used to tell a story, but it isn't necessary as a game element. The vast majority of people are not pants on head retarded (until massed in large groups or commenting on a YouTube video).

    I'm not saying to throw everyone into open world PVP where mastery of every ability is life and death. I'm saying this mechanic is not necessary to ease a player into the systems - they will do it themselves.

    FPS lock away weapons all the time in single-player. God of War games or action games or the like also slowly ramp up your arsenal as the game goes on, as you already touched on. Fighting games tend to lock away specific characeters at the start. Even a Mario game only slowly introduces new powerups over the course of the game, even if "Jump" and "Spin" (in 3D mario) and your various standard moves are available right from the start.

    And, more applicably, RPGs are more or less based on slowly introducing the player to newer and greater powers as they go along.

    Having a game ease you into increasing complexity as you proceed through it is almost universal. You can say "they will do it themselves" but both experience and the design of most games disagree. You very much want to control the players initial experiences as they learn the various systems of your game.

    Ah, you still evade my points, and now you verge on ad hominem, which is where you went in our last disagreement. I do not deny that a high level player will have degraded skills in another high level class at first. However, I wasn't wanting them in a high level class. I want a high level player to be able to skip the lowest levels of content, which are designed to teach a completely inexperienced player. Perhaps 20-30 in WoW terms - most core skills and a mount. (How many people rolled a Death Knight and had their mind blown by the sheer overwhelming number of skills available? I never met them. And most DK players were seriously average.)

    FPS games don't lock away the rocket launcher because the player is too dumb to handle it. They lock them away because it's a reward for playing further. You play through the game and get them. And that's the only weak example I gave - unlocking fight game characters is a long step from "weak punch 10 times to unlock strong punch". GW2's weapon unlocks (in every case I've observed, which is 2) take the player out of the game and make them do something else (grind) until they have full use of the weapon.

    You're right, some games introduce concepts as the game go on. In this case, the concept being introduced is not that complicated. People are NOT as dumb as this mechanic implies that they are. If it's a reward, it's a crappy reward - I feel punished that getting a shiny new toy means 10-15 minutes (over an hour for wizards) killing rats to fully use it. If it's to educate me in using it, it fails, because I completely ignore anything but autoattack until all skills are unlocked and I can see how they interact. If it's to stretch out content, it fails because there's no subscription - the only way they make more money from me is keep me having fun so that I tell my friends to buy it and buy the expansions.

    We might want to avoid each others posts, man.... you're a white knight, I'm a black knight. You have a game you feel passionate about, and you want to defend it, rabidly so. I see a game I'm passionate about, and I want everything to be perfect, so I call out what I perceive as wrong, no matter how many people tell me "dude, it'll all be okay". Tilt at me all you want, it's cool - I like debates, and if I can't back up my position then how do I know I'm right? But let's not shit on the thread while we do it - we're both getting close.

  • TolerantZeroTolerantZero Consistently Inconsistent Registered User regular
    Avynte wrote: »
    WaM please don't let them take away /sit jumping <img class=" title=":cry:" class="bbcode_smiley" />

    Apparently even wonderful bugs are still bugs. <img class=" title=":cry:" class="bbcode_smiley" />

    noooooooooo

    Gonna miss being able to do that.

    GW2: Alexander Baldomero | Rex Coppercutter
  • TopiaTopia Registered User regular
    Avynte wrote: »
    WaM please don't let them take away /sit jumping <img class=" title=":cry:" class="bbcode_smiley" />

    Apparently even wonderful bugs are still bugs. <img class=" title=":cry:" class="bbcode_smiley" />

    It's not a bug if you intentionally re-add it.

  • ShurakaiShurakai Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Skill bar unlocks will cease to be a factor once we actually start playing the game at release.

    They are only a large annoyance right now because what all of us are doing during the limited time we get to play is starting characters and trying new things., both of which involve wrestling with the noob hotbar unlock system.

    Once that tendency falls away, everyone will forget that it's an issue (because it isn't one level 10+)

    One thing they could do is put a 100 gem item in the gem store that auto unlocks all 1-5 abilities for all weapons for that character. That would give altitis afflicted or experienced, impatient players an alternative.

    Shurakai on
  • ShurakaiShurakai Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    I dodge toward enemies so I can hit them before other people!

    I keep having to stop myself from doing that.

    Playing a guardian, this actually works because you are immune to damage during the roll and you need to get into melee range most of the time anyway. I could see it not being so hot for other classes though.. wasting a dodge is not smart!

  • MadpoetMadpoet Registered User regular
    Avynte wrote: »
    WaM please don't let them take away /sit jumping <img class=" title=":cry:" class="bbcode_smiley" />

    Apparently even wonderful bugs are still bugs. <img class=" title=":cry:" class="bbcode_smiley" />

    /mourn LoL dance skating

  • SarksusSarksus playing tennisRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    I dodge toward enemies so I can hit them before other people!

    I keep having to stop myself from doing that.

    I just do it because I want a chance to be a part of the fight at all. Some mobs go down pretty quick.

  • World as MythWorld as Myth Registered User regular
    Shurakai wrote: »
    One thing they could do is put a 100 gem item in the gem store that auto unlocks all 1-5 abilities for all weapons for that character. That would give altitis afflicted or experienced, impatient players an alternative.

    I can't say for sure, but I believe that suggestion would upset people, though I think it has some merit. We're sensitive to giving people unfair advantages through gem purchases. I'm not a game designer, but my hunch says that allowing someone to pay for that ability would tip the balance somewhere.

    kQwcZLJ.png
  • ShurakaiShurakai Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Shurakai wrote: »
    One thing they could do is put a 100 gem item in the gem store that auto unlocks all 1-5 abilities for all weapons for that character. That would give altitis afflicted or experienced, impatient players an alternative.

    I can't say for sure, but I believe that suggestion would upset people, though I think it has some merit. We're sensitive to giving people unfair advantages through gem purchases. I'm not a game designer, but my hunch says that allowing someone to pay for that ability would tip the balance somewhere.

    I wouldn't mention it if gems weren't purchasable via in-game gold. Higher level players will have access to more gold, hence the ability to purchase gems. 100 is a small amount, and they wont mind spending gold on a lower level character to make the early game more enjoyable.

    And really.. it's superfluous. The mechanic is in place to introduce players to the game. A tutorial, essentially. When a player no longer needs a tutorial, it instead becomes an obstacle.. an annoyance, as you have seen individuals in this thread claim. I don't believe the devs would place an option in the options menu to disable it completely, but obviously that would be the better option if they would be worried about ruffling feathers.

    To be clear, I am only referring to the core 1-5 skills. unlocking utility skills etc with time and points is a-ok with me.

    Shurakai on
  • ironzergironzerg Registered User regular
    Or how about just scaling weapon unlocks to the number of weapons you have unlocked for that class?

    First weapon - Normal
    Second weapon - skills unlock 25% faster
    Third - 50% faster
    Fourth and beyond - 75% faster

    We can assume that by the time a person is unlocking a third, fourth or even fifth weapon for a class, they pretty much "got it", right?

    Proud member of Unrepentant Gaming! Pantless gaming at its finest.
    Check us out in Neverwinter.

  • ShenShen UKRegistered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Ability unlocks are fine for your first weapon, should be significantly faster to unlock for your second weapon and should be immediately available for everything past that. The second set is important because it shows that it's a different set of skills based on weapon, but after that it's just dumb filler and is particularly annoying underwater.

    Weapon switching should be immediately available and covered in a tutorial, and all classes should start with two full weapon sets equipped (that means an offhand for the thief, what was that about >.>).

    E: Beat'd by ironzerg

    Shen on
    NDBwPJF.jpg
    Origin: shenlongxz | 3DS: 2234-8122-8398 | D3: Ladi#2485 (EU)
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    In other games, you'd get number 1 at level 1, then number 2 at level 8, then 5 at level 40+. I get that now that people have gotten a taste of having them unlocked faster, the natural evolution is to demand that they just get them all unlocked instantly, but I just can't really care. It never took me more than a few minutes to fully unlock a new weapon, and if ANet feels there is a benefit there for easing less knowledgeable players into weapons, I'm certainly not going to cry about a few minutes, even if I don't need it. It's sure as hell better than having to play for dozens of hours to get to the right level to train all my core abilities.

    Joshmvii on
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    Oh, and thief with the trait to get swiftness when you dodge and also endurance back so you can dodge more frequently is clearly the best dodger.

  • KadokenKadoken What's a lollipop man doing, knowing f*****g Karate? Registered User regular
    Where were the dyes found? Sorry if it seems I'm opening up an old topic, but where did they come from?

This discussion has been closed.