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Star Wars: [Phalla]nce in the Force - Sith Empire(mafia) Are Victorious

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Posts

  • tzeentchlingtzeentchling Dr. Doctor Oakland, CARegistered User regular
    I assume that the Sith have some sort of protection ability, either passive or active, that returns a null result to a Knight's meditation. With this many seers, that only makes sense. The question is, how to catch them off-guard?

  • SaberOverEasySaberOverEasy Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    Please discuss and pick apart this plan for all its logical flaws. We need to know if it won't work.
    Flaws? At best, you've wasted a night.

    Most likely, the Sith have the Jedi power set. This means that any public organization can be counteracted by behaving as they're told. "Great!", you might say. "That means they're not accomplishing their
    objectives!"

    Wrong. I'd assume that they get kill powers (ie, the normal mafia ability) that does not utilize the subgame's action.

    So we make no progress towards the completion of secondary goals, but we prevent them from doing the same. Meanwhile, Night 1 happens as it does in any Phalla... which generally means dead villagers and no useful voting record.

    Conversely, if we break the Knights into strike forces and assign them goals, we make progress towards secondary objectives on the day when the vote isn't getting us anything. And, if we're clever about it, we can force the Sith to assist us or risk outing their Padawans.

    These are excellent points. I assumed the Sith have at least one group kill that's independent of the subgame. I also assume that's aimed squarely at the Council members.

    Maybe the Benubi Initiative isn't the optimal way to go about it, but there are 2/5 players with a seer ability! Something in my spider-sense tells me that there must be a way to leverage an en masse, public use of that power to either (1) catch Sith outright, or (2) use the public information to catch Sith in lies later.

    I'm going to continue saying that trying to find the Sith in the council at this point is a bad idea, however we go about it. We can be sure they will be protected plenty of ways tonight.

    Also, since the non-Sith members of the council have a fairly short life expectancy at this point, I think whichever original is still alive on the council a few days from now will some 'splainin to do...

  • AlegisAlegis Impeckable Registered User regular
    Why do people insist on making proboards admin-account-activated.

    You really think someone is going to guess the proboards link (or search for it through proboards directory listing or whatever), register as a fake name or pose as someone else, day 1 or 2?

  • BaidolBaidol I will hold him off. Escape while you can.Registered User regular
    No, but I do think people have been known to leak information they really should keep to themselves like a sieve.

  • Smoove OperatorSmoove Operator Registered User regular
    Are the small groups to be public information?

    They would almost have to be. If its a "Council Secret" as to who is in which group, then its really a Council + Sith secret. So the only people being left out are the village at large.

    My spreadsheet linked before lays out one way to simply assign 2 knights per council member.

    Honesty, Integrity, Handshakefulness
    _____________________________________________
  • CayrusCayrus Registered User regular
    I've always wondered how easy it would be to search for mafia proboards by searching for a specific board name or username. I assume not very or it would have been done before.

    Former Secret Service Agent Nathaniel Ford in Call of Cthulhu: Whispers in the Darkness

    Henri Emmanuel Gratien St Pierre in Where No Man Has Gone Before

    Lord Augustus Cumberbatch in Eclipse Phase
  • SaberOverEasySaberOverEasy Registered User regular
    MrTLicious wrote: »
    Publicly known (or even council-known) assignments are bad.

    With the Sith on the council, there shouldn't be any difference between the two at the moment. We can assume anything the council as a whole knows, they know. At this point, I think they are totally compromised and our focus shouldn't be on the old men, but on the working men on the ground. #OccupyCoruscant

    MrTLicious wrote: »
    You want to get the council involved? Assign each council member to two Knight/Padawan pairings. Have the 5 of them discuss actions together but not reveal it to the rest of the thread/council under orders are resolved.

    I really like this in theory, but I'm not sure on the math. Assuming 10 Sith, that means EVERY group would be likely to have at least one. That still give them all the information to thwart what we are trying to accomplish. Before we group up, I think we need a little more information about who is on our side. I still think scanning our padawans and seeing who's accusing who (and who isn't) tomorrow gives us the best chance to work together in non-compromised groups. If some of us want to get started on taking planets tonight, that's fine as well, but I think our focus should be on clearing as many teams as we can.

  • Smoove OperatorSmoove Operator Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    The spreadsheet is HERE.

    Basically, just assign numbers 1-20 to Knights and 1-10 to Council, and roll 10#2d20 on Orokos, then replace all the duplicate numbers with unrolled numbers.

    Smoove Operator on
    Honesty, Integrity, Handshakefulness
    _____________________________________________
  • SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    Cayrus wrote: »
    I've always wondered how easy it would be to search for mafia proboards by searching for a specific board name or username. I assume not very or it would have been done before.

    I think I remember in the phallakinetic finale that a search for Primaphorior led to our proboards quite easily

    PSN SeGaTai
  • KetBraKetBra hiRegistered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    MrTLicious wrote: »
    Publicly known (or even council-known) assignments are bad.

    You want to get the council involved? Assign each council member to two Knight/Padawan pairings. Have the 5 of them discuss actions together but not reveal it to the rest of the thread/council under orders are resolved.

    I like that idea.

    This could be a problem if there are Sith council members.

    sig.png
  • 38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    Are the small groups to be public information?

    They would almost have to be. If its a "Council Secret" as to who is in which group, then its really a Council + Sith secret. So the only people being left out are the village at large.

    My spreadsheet linked before lays out one way to simply assign 2 knights per council member.
    Yes, it needs to be public and it needs to be assigned randomly.

    Relink?

    Also, why are you people not in IRC?

    Work.


    camo_sig2.png
  • TheRoadVirusTheRoadVirus I will show you why hurricanes are named after peopleRegistered User regular
    Assuming 10 sith, and then also assuming totally random distribution of players, there is a chance of getting some groups with NO sith in it (yay!) but we also have a chance of having some groups with ALL sith (boo!)

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  • AlegisAlegis Impeckable Registered User regular
    Catching up to the thread, not sure why matev's plan was destroyed so quickly. Not really a role call, simply a way of aiming actions to collect data and reason about it.

    I don't expect it to be a role call, I'm sure ObiFett added in a few things (such as uncertainty or 'cover') to make up for it. If we simply let everyone do his/her thing without any overseeing control, people can claim what they want and mafia can hide where they want.

  • SaberOverEasySaberOverEasy Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »

    TheRoadVirus

    Quoted for truth! I put down a semi-joke vote on The Road Virus last night, but I think he's been acting VERY mafia-ish. He was very quick to post while PMs were still going out, has managed to suggest that we both meditate on the council AND meditate on padawans within five posts without providing a good rationale for either, AND he's maanged to go through this whole discussion without adding anything when we got serious.

    I know I'm kinda new, but can we get this bandwagon rolling?

  • AkimboLegsAkimboLegs Registered User regular
    MrTLicious wrote: »
    Publicly known (or even council-known) assignments are bad.

    With the Sith on the council, there shouldn't be any difference between the two at the moment. We can assume anything the council as a whole knows, they know. At this point, I think they are totally compromised and our focus shouldn't be on the old men, but on the working men on the ground. #OccupyCoruscant

    MrTLicious wrote: »
    You want to get the council involved? Assign each council member to two Knight/Padawan pairings. Have the 5 of them discuss actions together but not reveal it to the rest of the thread/council under orders are resolved.

    I really like this in theory, but I'm not sure on the math. Assuming 10 Sith, that means EVERY group would be likely to have at least one. That still give them all the information to thwart what we are trying to accomplish. Before we group up, I think we need a little more information about who is on our side. I still think scanning our padawans and seeing who's accusing who (and who isn't) tomorrow gives us the best chance to work together in non-compromised groups. If some of us want to get started on taking planets tonight, that's fine as well, but I think our focus should be on clearing as many teams as we can.

    That isn't how probability works. We'd proably get 6-8 groups with 1-2 members, and a few groups with no mafia.

    I've always thought clearing padawans/small jedi teams, and working from there seems best, because the ones that can prove trustworthy to each other can work well. Lots of mini networks would be hard to infiltrate.


    However, it invariably comes down to

    If 40% of the game has an alignment seer, then the Sith have a way of counteracting it. Maybe the Sith powers are very similar to the Jedi, but with the addition of "Hide Alignment + <something else>" so they can either choose to block seer attempts, or risk being discovered, but maybe get a vig or something (unlikely quite that powerful, but whatever).

  • TheRoadVirusTheRoadVirus I will show you why hurricanes are named after peopleRegistered User regular
    Feel free to waste a day killing a Knight.
    I have no real way of proving myself since all of the abilities have been posted, though.
    I didn't know that changing plans based on people coming up with better ideas than you was a crime, but oh well!
    8->

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  • AlegisAlegis Impeckable Registered User regular
    Are you suggesting we only vote out padawans?

  • CayrusCayrus Registered User regular
    Uhm, I'm conflicted here.

    Former Secret Service Agent Nathaniel Ford in Call of Cthulhu: Whispers in the Darkness

    Henri Emmanuel Gratien St Pierre in Where No Man Has Gone Before

    Lord Augustus Cumberbatch in Eclipse Phase
  • SaberOverEasySaberOverEasy Registered User regular
    Feel free to waste a day killing a Knight.
    I have no real way of proving myself since all of the abilities have been posted, though.
    I didn't know that changing plans based on people coming up with better ideas than you was a crime, but oh well!
    8->

    That's all well and good, except it's not really what happened. When you suggested looking at the council, people were agreeing with you. And then you went and said "there's more group, we should do the padawans" And then you stopped saying anything, until you showed up with some math on the group that I'd already posted.

    Just seems a little mafia-ish to me :)

  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Come back stronger than a Powered Up PacMan!Registered User regular
    So I was thinking about this. If we can't vote the Council members out, it's safe to assume that the Council members in right now are not Sith. But those who get voted in later could be. So do we rally around our Jedi Masters at this point or stick close to our Knights?

    175_zps51b9aee7.jpg~original
  • KetBraKetBra hiRegistered User regular
    I'd also like to point out that splitting into teams with council members heading them doesn't change anything for the better if all of the council members agree on the current choice of action.

    sig.png
  • SaberOverEasySaberOverEasy Registered User regular
    To be fair, it's also not like we have a whole lot else to go on Day 1. With the odd being that we'd vote out a villager anyways, might as well be one that's acting oddly.

  • SaberOverEasySaberOverEasy Registered User regular
    So I was thinking about this. If we can't vote the Council members out, it's safe to assume that the Council members in right now are not Sith. But those who get voted in later could be. So do we rally around our Jedi Masters at this point or stick close to our Knights?

    Hey Grunt's, take a look back at the last page. I think we're all in pretty good agreement that there is at least one (and probably two) Sith on the council at the moment.

  • AlegisAlegis Impeckable Registered User regular
    I would assume there are sith in the council. That would give the sith opportunity to try to mess around in the council's vote and actions, which makes for a better 'game'.

    There are some mechanics in the council which are designed for mafia to take advantage of (such as the successor lists being public rather than private)

  • AkimboLegsAkimboLegs Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    MrTLicious wrote: »
    Publicly known (or even council-known) assignments are bad.

    You want to get the council involved? Assign each council member to two Knight/Padawan pairings. Have the 5 of them discuss actions together but not reveal it to the rest of the thread/council under orders are resolved.

    I like that idea.

    This could be a problem if there are Sith council members.

    Which is a safe bet. It's hard to know if it would be as rigid at the 2-4-4 split people suggested earlier, because that might make it very easy to find mafia, so I guess maybe SOME randomness would exist, but not too much.

  • KetBraKetBra hiRegistered User regular
    AkimboLegs wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    MrTLicious wrote: »
    Publicly known (or even council-known) assignments are bad.

    You want to get the council involved? Assign each council member to two Knight/Padawan pairings. Have the 5 of them discuss actions together but not reveal it to the rest of the thread/council under orders are resolved.

    I like that idea.

    This could be a problem if there are Sith council members.

    Which is a safe bet. It's hard to know if it would be as rigid at the 2-4-4 split people suggested earlier, because that might make it very easy to find mafia, so I guess maybe SOME randomness would exist, but not too much.

    The problem is that you're basically leveraging the Sith. Instead of having 10 or so, we're going to have 10 plus whatever dupes the sith masters order around.

    sig.png
  • Smoove OperatorSmoove Operator Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    I've got Council / Knight pairings up on the spreadsheet page 2. Assuming we want them to be public of course. If not, we'll just redo this.

    I'll put them in spoilers here, for those who don't want to check the spreadsheet (editing):
    Spoiler:

    Smoove Operator on
    Honesty, Integrity, Handshakefulness
    _____________________________________________
  • AkimboLegsAkimboLegs Registered User regular
    I'm not saying we should obey the Masters.

    I think people should act by themselves. A public plan helps the Sith more, I think. They know exactly who everyone is, so if orders are public, they (probably) have actions that can directly counteract most of that.

    If people want to form small soft networks and try to confirm within them, that's fine, but they shouldn't be predetermined, is my point.

  • TheRoadVirusTheRoadVirus I will show you why hurricanes are named after peopleRegistered User regular
    Feel free to waste a day killing a Knight.
    I have no real way of proving myself since all of the abilities have been posted, though.
    I didn't know that changing plans based on people coming up with better ideas than you was a crime, but oh well!
    8->

    That's all well and good, except it's not really what happened. When you suggested looking at the council, people were agreeing with you. And then you went and said "there's more group, we should do the padawans" And then you stopped saying anything, until you showed up with some math on the group that I'd already posted.

    Just seems a little mafia-ish to me :)

    You are completely entitled to your opinion.
    I've been posting as much as I can at work, so things may have been a bit sporadic

    People agreed with looking at the council, yes. Thing is, if we are doing our own thing and not listening to the council at the moment, as seems to be the case, then knowing who is sith on the council is a bit of a moot point, as we can't do anything to get rid of them. If we can seer our padawans/other knights, we can actually unveil infiltrated folks that we CAN kill off.

    Someone posted something saying that odds are that every group would have a sith in it, and I was trying to correct them by listing the other possibilities.

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  • MatevMatev Benjamin Warsaw, Action Six News! It's Benji.......like the dogRegistered User regular
    So I was thinking about this. If we can't vote the Council members out, it's safe to assume that the Council members in right now are not Sith.

    I would not assume that Grunt, I would more assume that there are other powers which will remove us from our station. We're just as suspect as the rest of the Order. However, we're an obvious target for "extracurricular activities" as well.

    "Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
    Spoiler:
  • CayrusCayrus Registered User regular
    Why don't we elect a Grand Master and let one person run the show? All this squabbling annoys me.

    Former Secret Service Agent Nathaniel Ford in Call of Cthulhu: Whispers in the Darkness

    Henri Emmanuel Gratien St Pierre in Where No Man Has Gone Before

    Lord Augustus Cumberbatch in Eclipse Phase
  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Come back stronger than a Powered Up PacMan!Registered User regular
    Well, if we can't take out Council members with votes, does that mean that someone has to go Anakin and kill Council members? That seems a bit Dark Side today.

    175_zps51b9aee7.jpg~original
  • Shiny New ToysShiny New Toys Registered User regular
    Cayrus wrote: »
    Uhm, I'm conflicted here.

    Don't you get promoted if TRV dies?

  • MrBlarneyMrBlarney Registered User regular
    Current Spreadsheet (up to post 496)

    I think that it's important to have at least some kind of coordinated plan across the full player base since there is so much interaction between everybody's abilities. Perhaps the plan we've got right now isn't the best, but it is a plan that involves everyone and has some potential. At the very least, it is creating discussion - so if a better plan comes out, then we can implement it.

    chirisigtext.png
  • CayrusCayrus Registered User regular
    Cayrus wrote: »
    Uhm, I'm conflicted here.

    Don't you get promoted if TRV dies?

    Yeah, but I'd feel weird voting for my Master just so I could get promoted.

    Former Secret Service Agent Nathaniel Ford in Call of Cthulhu: Whispers in the Darkness

    Henri Emmanuel Gratien St Pierre in Where No Man Has Gone Before

    Lord Augustus Cumberbatch in Eclipse Phase
  • Shiny New ToysShiny New Toys Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    So do we have a consensus on plan A (Matev's plan targets unknown) or plan B (Smooth's plan targets the council)?

    I don't really care which or even if we rip up these plans and go with plan C - (dancing anyone?) but my time zone difference means I'm going to have to be inactive for about 6 hours while I sleep :P I should have time to put in orders and a vote when I wake up but I would like provisional in place so the dreaded Doth Inactivus doesn't get me.

    Shiny New Toys on
  • AkimboLegsAkimboLegs Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    AkimboLegs wrote: »
    I think people should act by themselves. A public plan helps the Sith more, I think. They know exactly who everyone is, so if orders are public, they (probably) have actions that can directly counteract most of that.

    If people want to form small soft networks and try to confirm within them, that's fine, but they shouldn't be predetermined, is my point.
    Disorganization marginalizes the village. Establishing a plan of attack means that we can more easily identify outliers, and correspondingly, those who are acting against the interest of the village.

    Self-organization allows the mafia to take control. It's the exact opposite of what we should be working towards.

    I guess I mostly mean as far as targets. Like I said, I find it highly unlikely that the Sith do not have countermeasures for the seer. If they know they're being seered, they can easily protect, and we either accept their alignment, and get infiltrated, or dont trust our results, so we wasted a day.

    I'd also wager they have some way of screwing with Jedi missions if they know where they are headed.

  • InfidelInfidel Heretic Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    MrTLicious wrote: »
    Publicly known (or even council-known) assignments are bad.

    You want to get the council involved? Assign each council member to two Knight/Padawan pairings. Have the 5 of them discuss actions together but not reveal it to the rest of the thread/council under orders are resolved.
    That's a great idea. Does anyone know of something like Invisible Castle or Orokos that does (public, traceable) sequence generation?

    How about... Orokos? :P

    Look at the bit on combinatorials.

    20p20 is 1 through 20 in random order, etc.

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  • TheRoadVirusTheRoadVirus I will show you why hurricanes are named after peopleRegistered User regular
    When I die and come up green tonight, it may be a good idea to check out my padawan. Reading back on his past messages, I feel that he is not who I thought he was.

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  • InfidelInfidel Heretic Registered User regular
    Still catching up, but I find it pretty funny that people are putting this much faith in a seer ability that is apparently possessed by 40% of the playerbase.

    Gotta think on plans yet but still too many meetings today.

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