what you are saying is akin to telling a runner who is interested in going for best times that he shouldn't bother timing himself because he will 'know' that he is getting faster.
Again I don't care one way or the other about dps meters, but this is not true. A runner would have no other metric to gauge himself by he has to time himself to mark improvement. In an MMO you have success/failure as a pretty big way to gauge your performance in Tera specifically you can also gauge your performance by whether or not you are getting hit, and how much damage your abilities hit for. How much they do over the course of time is kind of pointless though because you will frequently have periods of movement and dodging where you are not doing damage, this will vary widely based on the tank and healer performances and the BAM mechanics in that particular encounter as well (which could also vary widely due to the behavioral basis of the mechanics vs scripted mechanics)
Which is why a DPS meter is not particularly useful in Tera.
Fine for other MMO's where you have a much more standard combat that doesn't vary much, less so for Tera.
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Unless you're a warrior, in which case, time spent not doing damage almost always reflects failure just as taking damage does. Albeit less so.
I don't know, maybe all the other classes have significant periods of time where they are standing around with their hands in their pockets wishing they could be doing damage. I don't /think/ so, because what I have read indicates there are still options do do damage while avoiding it for almost every class. Or charging up for greater damage while moving to avoid damage, etc etc etc. But maybe warriors are just special.
what you are saying is akin to telling a runner who is interested in going for best times that he shouldn't bother timing himself because he will 'know' that he is getting faster. I feel like none of you have ever done any sort of sport like swimming or running or weight lifting. I did swimming for 11 years and best times are everything in swimming.
I don't think it's that no one here has "done any sort of sport." It's that your sports analogy doesn't translate to a game like TERA.
If you want a sports analogy, think of TERA more like basketball or something. If everyone on the court is obsessed with their individual scoring instead of assisting their teammates, playing good defense or controlling the pace of the game, that's never going to be a winning team.
Best times (and best DPS) aren't everything in TERA.
Best times (and best DPS) aren't everything in TERA.
Metaphores are always suspect, and it's certainly easier to attack a flawed one rather than the core issue itself. Just because you move in a lot in Tera, just because the combat is more difficult, doesn't mean there aren't optimal conditions. Why is striving for optimal such an anethma to you? "I don't value it so it's not of value"
If you want to pat yourself on the back because you're standing and the mob is not, super groovy. Maybe that's all you'll ever want, and that's all it takes to make you happy. That's cool, I'm genuinely pleased for you. I gain pleasure from it too. But I also really, really like improving my performance. Shaving time off. Blending my attacks together, finding optimal patterns, learning when and where and how to dodge, or move, or execute an attack to keep me on target as much as possible while avoiding damage.
Perhaps you don't? I don't think that's the case. I imagine most people gain pleasure from that progression as well. I just prefer to have a concrete tool to help measure that improvement. I want the option to have as much information as possible. If you don't, that's fine, but why stand in the way of, or argue against the wishes of others?
So I'm watching some more vids (thanks to everyone who answered my previous questions, by the way) and I can see how they're touting the whole "movement is key during battle" concept. I must admit it does look refreshing.
Curious as to how it actually works though. Do classes have skills to backflip and such? Or is that all an integral part of moving your character?
I'm certainly not trying to argue against the wishes of others. And in fact, rpshoggoth, your middle paragraph pretty much reiterates the point I was trying to make.
My comment "Best times (and best DPS) aren't everything in TERA." is in response to the analogy that measuring your DPS with a meter is akin to measuring your time in swimming or running. It wasn't a comment on how quickly a group kills a boss in TERA as you seem to think. In fact, my point is that the "DPS is everything" mentality more than likely will lengthen kill time or cause a failure.
I'm not trying to attack anyone. I'm not against DPS meters either. But I am against the DPS is everything mentality, especially in a game as dynamic as TERA.
You people are killing me. Spent time leveling on Samael today. I'm a big enough Helloween fanboy that I might stick around. There is also Klyka, but I think Helloween makes up for that
So I'm watching some more vids (thanks to everyone who answered my previous questions, by the way) and I can see how they're touting the whole "movement is key during battle" concept. I must admit it does look refreshing.
Curious as to how it actually works though. Do classes have skills to backflip and such? Or is that all an integral part of moving your character?
Combination of moving manually and class evade abilities.
DPS is less meaningful in Tera due to the amount of moving you have to do during boss fights, anyway.
I would say just the opposite. Keeping constant DPS going is harder in Tera because the amount of moving you are doing, thus making it more important than normal since you have less time to actually attack.
I keep seeing people rant about how great it is when people dodge and move in combat. And to an extent it is good and a good player will do so... but if all they do is dodge damage while not managing to attack at the right times for some DPS, then they really aren't doing that great.
Dodging but staying close enough to contribute dps is the mark of a good warrior, its why glyphing for cooldown on your upward dodging leap thing (Death from above?) is so important in groups.
CorriganX on Steam and just about everywhere else.
I would say just the opposite. Keeping constant DPS going is harder in Tera because the amount of moving you are doing, thus making it more important than normal since you have less time to actually attack.
I keep seeing people rant about how great it is when people dodge and move in combat. And to an extent it is good and a good player will do so... but if all they do is dodge damage while not managing to attack at the right times for some DPS, then they really aren't doing that great.
Total damage done over the course of the fight >>>>> average DPS from minute to minute is what I'm saying here.
DPS is less meaningful in Tera due to the amount of moving you have to do during boss fights, anyway.
I would say just the opposite. Keeping constant DPS going is harder in Tera because the amount of moving you are doing, thus making it more important than normal since you have less time to actually attack.
I keep seeing people rant about how great it is when people dodge and move in combat. And to an extent it is good and a good player will do so... but if all they do is dodge damage while not managing to attack at the right times for some DPS, then they really aren't doing that great.
This is true, and because of the variance in moving from battle to battle, why a DPS meter is not very useful.
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Total damage done over the course of the fight >>>>> average DPS from minute to minute is what I'm saying here.
Have you even used a DPS meter? It has metrics of like twenty different things. A few include damage taken, total damage done, mana used/gained, CC broken, interrupts/stuns used.
I guess I should elaborate when I say DPS meters to not just specifically say "damage per second".
Although over the course of a 10 minute fight, knowing your damage per second would be just as useful at total damage done. Damage per second can be found over any amount of time.... hell if I do 100 damage in an hour, I'm doing like 0.02 DPS... you werent actually thinking DPS is used JUST for a second to second basis?
Just because you aren't hitting 100% of the time, doesn't mean you wont have an average DPS over the course of a boss fight.
Have you even used a DPS meter? It has metrics of like twenty different things. A few include damage taken, total damage done, mana used/gained, CC broken, interrupts/stuns used.
Use recount in WoW.
All I'm really trying to say is that Tera's "DPS meter" would actually be a "total benefit" meter, which would have to track (at the least) damage done, minus damage taken.
Could also have damage absorbed through blocking...
the basketball one isn't that great because you play both offense and defense, but even then just because a point guard doesn't value the number of points he scores very much doesn't mean a shooting guard also does not. they probably care about the number of points they score a whole lot since you kind of need to score points to win games.
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MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
Man, I can't wait until Tera has been out long enough for everything to be analyzed so that we know the only "one true way to play" and we can stop these incredibly dumb DPS arguments.
Man, I can't wait until Tera has been out long enough for everything to be analyzed so that we know the only "one true way to play" and we can stop these incredibly dumb DPS arguments.
Still won't affect how I play. I play to have fun, which means I play to be inefficient most of the time.
I'm ok with this. So Long as I can kill people/bams and swing a big sword I'm a happy guy.
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Damage meters are just about the epeen and people using it to justify kicking out some people even if they're above what is needed.
Generalizations are my favorite. Can we talk about how all Elin players are pedos now?
Suggesting such things I believe reflects more on your statement than mine.
To be fair there is substantially more truth in your statement in mine, I'm just trying to point to the uselessness of sweeping generalizations. Especially ones (I hope you know that) aren't true.
I see there is mystic and priest capable of healing. Are one of those the "main healer," or barring that, what are the main differences? I read the op, just looking for a bit more granularity
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
I see there is mystic and priest capable of healing. Are one of those the "main healer," or barring that, what are the main differences? I read the op, just looking for a bit more granularity
Priest has more healing tools, mystic has more support spells. Both are perfectly capable of healing 5 man content, priest just has more oh-shit buttons.
I see there is mystic and priest capable of healing. Are one of those the "main healer," or barring that, what are the main differences? I read the op, just looking for a bit more granularity
Priest would be the "Main healer" in that they have more healing spells. Mystics are more a "hybrid healer" in that they have fewer healing spells but more support spells such as the amazing crit buff one.
They also heal differently. Priest has aoe heals and direct target heals, while Mystic throw balls on the ground that people need to pick up to heal themselves (also distributes mana this way with blue balls)
From what I hear at higher levels people want Mystics over Priests (for the crit buff) but I think either can do just fine in most healing situations.
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MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
Mystic post-50 has incredibly overpowered dps buffs that make it far more valuable than a Priest, from how I understand it.
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
Perhaps you don't? I don't think that's the case. I imagine most people gain pleasure from that progression as well. I just prefer to have a concrete tool to help measure that improvement. I want the option to have as much information as possible. If you don't, that's fine, but why stand in the way of, or argue against the wishes of others?
I used to play MMOs for the challenge. Now I play them to relax. Completely different mindset, but both types of players inhabit every MMO.
Problems tend to occur when people don't realize the other type exists. Sometimes it gets to the point where people espouse a certain view, which definitely won't work.
I'm mildly interesting in trying TERA since it resembles the gameplay of yore. It's probably too new for trial accounts, though.
Not a big deal, but just to clarify Great Scott, I didn't say the thing you quoted. I agree with you.
In other news, I'm almost 36 and chomping at the bit for the 3rd dungeon (CR?). As long as I don't skip any story quests it'll lead me to the appropriate dungeon quests, right? I'm paranoid because I managed to skip the BoL quests until I was almost over leveled for the place.
Posts
Again I don't care one way or the other about dps meters, but this is not true. A runner would have no other metric to gauge himself by he has to time himself to mark improvement. In an MMO you have success/failure as a pretty big way to gauge your performance in Tera specifically you can also gauge your performance by whether or not you are getting hit, and how much damage your abilities hit for. How much they do over the course of time is kind of pointless though because you will frequently have periods of movement and dodging where you are not doing damage, this will vary widely based on the tank and healer performances and the BAM mechanics in that particular encounter as well (which could also vary widely due to the behavioral basis of the mechanics vs scripted mechanics)
Which is why a DPS meter is not particularly useful in Tera.
Fine for other MMO's where you have a much more standard combat that doesn't vary much, less so for Tera.
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I don't know, maybe all the other classes have significant periods of time where they are standing around with their hands in their pockets wishing they could be doing damage. I don't /think/ so, because what I have read indicates there are still options do do damage while avoiding it for almost every class. Or charging up for greater damage while moving to avoid damage, etc etc etc. But maybe warriors are just special.
I don't think it's that no one here has "done any sort of sport." It's that your sports analogy doesn't translate to a game like TERA.
If you want a sports analogy, think of TERA more like basketball or something. If everyone on the court is obsessed with their individual scoring instead of assisting their teammates, playing good defense or controlling the pace of the game, that's never going to be a winning team.
Best times (and best DPS) aren't everything in TERA.
Metaphores are always suspect, and it's certainly easier to attack a flawed one rather than the core issue itself. Just because you move in a lot in Tera, just because the combat is more difficult, doesn't mean there aren't optimal conditions. Why is striving for optimal such an anethma to you? "I don't value it so it's not of value"
If you want to pat yourself on the back because you're standing and the mob is not, super groovy. Maybe that's all you'll ever want, and that's all it takes to make you happy. That's cool, I'm genuinely pleased for you. I gain pleasure from it too. But I also really, really like improving my performance. Shaving time off. Blending my attacks together, finding optimal patterns, learning when and where and how to dodge, or move, or execute an attack to keep me on target as much as possible while avoiding damage.
Perhaps you don't? I don't think that's the case. I imagine most people gain pleasure from that progression as well. I just prefer to have a concrete tool to help measure that improvement. I want the option to have as much information as possible. If you don't, that's fine, but why stand in the way of, or argue against the wishes of others?
Curious as to how it actually works though. Do classes have skills to backflip and such? Or is that all an integral part of moving your character?
My comment "Best times (and best DPS) aren't everything in TERA." is in response to the analogy that measuring your DPS with a meter is akin to measuring your time in swimming or running. It wasn't a comment on how quickly a group kills a boss in TERA as you seem to think. In fact, my point is that the "DPS is everything" mentality more than likely will lengthen kill time or cause a failure.
I'm not trying to attack anyone. I'm not against DPS meters either. But I am against the DPS is everything mentality, especially in a game as dynamic as TERA.
.
Island. Being on fire.
Combination of moving manually and class evade abilities.
I would say just the opposite. Keeping constant DPS going is harder in Tera because the amount of moving you are doing, thus making it more important than normal since you have less time to actually attack.
I keep seeing people rant about how great it is when people dodge and move in combat. And to an extent it is good and a good player will do so... but if all they do is dodge damage while not managing to attack at the right times for some DPS, then they really aren't doing that great.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
CorriganX on Steam and just about everywhere else.
Total damage done over the course of the fight >>>>> average DPS from minute to minute is what I'm saying here.
This is true, and because of the variance in moving from battle to battle, why a DPS meter is not very useful.
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
Have you even used a DPS meter? It has metrics of like twenty different things. A few include damage taken, total damage done, mana used/gained, CC broken, interrupts/stuns used.
I guess I should elaborate when I say DPS meters to not just specifically say "damage per second".
Although over the course of a 10 minute fight, knowing your damage per second would be just as useful at total damage done. Damage per second can be found over any amount of time.... hell if I do 100 damage in an hour, I'm doing like 0.02 DPS... you werent actually thinking DPS is used JUST for a second to second basis?
Just because you aren't hitting 100% of the time, doesn't mean you wont have an average DPS over the course of a boss fight.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Use recount in WoW.
All I'm really trying to say is that Tera's "DPS meter" would actually be a "total benefit" meter, which would have to track (at the least) damage done, minus damage taken.
Could also have damage absorbed through blocking...
Also, my own alt character (Azuska) and @Shadow.Spies (playing Shadow.Spies)
Hey, periods in the name breaks click-to-profile
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
I think you can encapsulate them in quotes to fix it.
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chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Works with spaces too!
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Still won't affect how I play. I play to have fun, which means I play to be inefficient most of the time.
I'm ok with this. So Long as I can kill people/bams and swing a big sword I'm a happy guy.
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When you tend to play a game you can usually tell who's cutting it or not after a few runs.
Damage meters are just about the epeen and people using it to justify kicking out some people even if they're above what is needed.
Generalizations are my favorite. Can we talk about how all Elin players are pedos now?
Suggesting such things I believe reflects more on your statement than mine.
To be fair there is substantially more truth in your statement in mine, I'm just trying to point to the uselessness of sweeping generalizations. Especially ones (I hope you know that) aren't true.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Priest has more healing tools, mystic has more support spells. Both are perfectly capable of healing 5 man content, priest just has more oh-shit buttons.
Priest would be the "Main healer" in that they have more healing spells. Mystics are more a "hybrid healer" in that they have fewer healing spells but more support spells such as the amazing crit buff one.
They also heal differently. Priest has aoe heals and direct target heals, while Mystic throw balls on the ground that people need to pick up to heal themselves (also distributes mana this way with blue balls)
From what I hear at higher levels people want Mystics over Priests (for the crit buff) but I think either can do just fine in most healing situations.
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chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge!
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
I used to play MMOs for the challenge. Now I play them to relax. Completely different mindset, but both types of players inhabit every MMO.
Problems tend to occur when people don't realize the other type exists. Sometimes it gets to the point where people espouse a certain view, which definitely won't work.
I'm mildly interesting in trying TERA since it resembles the gameplay of yore. It's probably too new for trial accounts, though.
In other news, I'm almost 36 and chomping at the bit for the 3rd dungeon (CR?). As long as I don't skip any story quests it'll lead me to the appropriate dungeon quests, right? I'm paranoid because I managed to skip the BoL quests until I was almost over leveled for the place.