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A question on sexism/misogyny

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Posts

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Registered User regular
    They're not supposed to be 6-year olds, they're just super-deformed versions of superheroes who act goofily because it's a show for children.

    If he is indeed talking about the Superhero Squad, yeah. They're chibi adults with severe brain damage.

    freefallagent.jpg
  • LadyMLadyM Registered User regular
    Bagginses wrote: »
    Did they show many men head on? Drawing forward-perspective faces can be difficult, so it might just be that they could only get monsters to look right because monsters are supposed to be freaky.

    No, men were only shown head-on if they were in an altered state . . . for example, drunk (this was the most common) or occasionally playing music, asleep, or dead. Mostly drunk.

    80EuphSmik001.jpg

    Yeah, that guy is plastered.

    Women could also be shown head-on if they were drunk. But women were technically not allowed to drink wine in Greek society so that doesn't show up much.

    Basically, if someone is facing you head on in ancient Greek pottery, you know something odd is going on. The whole myth of the gorgons is pretty much rooted in the idea that the "proper" woman's gaze was slightly downward in a mixture of modesty, submission, and shame. (There's a specific Greek word referring to this which unfortunately slips my mind at the moment.) Gorgons were . . . well, you can think of them as strawmen for this ideal. "Women who look straight at men are scary and inappropriate. LIKE THIS HIDEOUS MONSTER WHO TURNS MEN TO STONE WITH HER GAAAAZE!"

    Gorgons were also often drawn with "male eyes" (the large eye with the tearduct instead of the almond-shaped eyes that women were drawn with) and sometimes even beards. "Don't try to be like a man, you women" was the underlying message, with a coda of "Or else Perseus will cut your head off!!". Not that the Greeks thought this out or anything, I'm sure it was just a myth to them and they took for granted that women shouldn't have a direct gaze, like duh. But that's definitely how it played out in their societal narrative. Most monsters, for example Polyphemus the cyclops or Cerberus the three-headed guard dog, were also shown in profile.

    The Greek artists were pretty good at making their other monsters scary too, though!

    P28.2Ketos.jpg

    (Note the skin difference between the woman, who I think is Athena, and the guy (Herakles).)

    LadyM on
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    @mrt144 @incenjucar

    mrt144 wrote: »
    Really need to see scans of this because I can not fucking believe it.

    Images in spoiler.

    Spoiler:

    Yar on
  • SticksSticks Registered User regular
    That's pretty odd looking alright.

    Definitely looks more like cartoon caricatures of adults and not child versions of the super heroes though.

    Which doesn't really jibe with the text.

    Sticks on
    owl-sig.jpg
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Sticks wrote: »
    That's pretty odd looking alright.

    Definitely looks more like cartoon caricatures of adults and not child versions of the super heroes though.

    Which doesn't really jibe with the text.

    Spider-Girl looks pretty much like an 'overdeveloped' late teenager. Maybe 15-16. I mean, there is absolutely no part of her body which looks childlike. Even her face shape is wrong.

    Your puny weapons are useless against me
  • BagginsesBagginses __BANNED USERS regular
    I wonder if the differing skin tones may tell us something about greek life. It could indicate that women were highly domestic compared to other cultures while men were hilariously outdoorsy and prone to skin cancer.

  • SticksSticks Registered User regular
    Possibly, but more likely I think it is a combination of status symbol and visual aid for telling the two apart.

    owl-sig.jpg
  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    Bagginses wrote: »
    I wonder if the differing skin tones may tell us something about greek life. It could indicate that women were highly domestic compared to other cultures while men were hilariously outdoorsy and prone to skin cancer.

    It's more part of the standards of beauty where pretty women didn't really do much and stayed inside and didn't do manual labor and so porcelain was the desired skin tone. It's like that a lot of places.


    Because 9% think it's too high, and shouldn't be cut! 9% of respondents could not fully
    get their arms around the question. There should be another box you can check for, "I
    have utterly no idea what you're talking about. Please, God, don't ask for my input."
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    Yar wrote: »
    @mrt144 @incenjucar

    mrt144 wrote: »
    Really need to see scans of this because I can not fucking believe it.

    Images in spoiler.

    Spoiler:

    That is so odd. So very odd.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Registered User regular
    Her torso and head are 100% adult, and then they just chopped her arms and forearms off and replaced them with chibi stumps.

    That's rather horrifying.

    But Marvel pretty much defines women as tits and lipstick so... at least she's not in a broke back pose?

    freefallagent.jpg
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    Don't forget pigtails.

    Anyway, they are supposed to be kids, and in particular the Hulk is drawn with a boyish face. Storm isn't in this book, but you can see her on the back, and it appears that she is normalishly child-like. Spider-girl is just off.

    Yar on
  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User regular
    I dont think she looks that different from the others. They all look like tiny adults to me.



    "There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing." -- Andrew Jackson
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Registered User regular
    Storm just isn't put in quite the same poses. Looking at the books, Spider-Girl seems to be that artist's Harley Quinn. Lots of poses emphasize the curve of her thigh, and she does lots of those "naughty acrobat" poses you see characters like Harley or Black Cat stand in when they aren't drawn more gratuitously.

    But yeah, they're literally school children. There are pictures of them behind their desks and such.

    http://spiderfan.org/audio/images/spiderman_and_friends_music/spiderman_2003.jpg

    http://i.pgcdn.com/pi/0/56/61/5661209_260.jpg

    --

    Look what happens when they get a different artist:

    http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61vIHUAKnnL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

    So much less creepy.

    Incenjucar on
    freefallagent.jpg
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    Yeah I GISsed around and found a few different artists' renditions of this crew. Definitely supposed to be young children, though most artists still draw Spidergirl at various levels of buxom. Other versions had Spidergirl moved behind other characters or removed altogether (like, the same picture except she's cut out).

    Then there's the CD cover art, which seems to have made her a little bit more realistically androgynous... but gave her a flower to sniff instead. Is that better? Also, it seems to have decided to give all the male characters big breasts. You know, for good measure.

    spidey7.jpg

    Yar on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Registered User regular
    Also it made Storm look scarier than Hulk.

    freefallagent.jpg
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    I think that we can honestly agree that the entire concept inherently makes the characters look absurd. Even in the 'better' example I'd say it's more creepy since it looks like spiderman has kidnapped some kid in her pajamas. She still looks older than she is supposed to, it's just now she looks like an oddly dressed 'unpopular' 16 year old rather than an overdeveloped head cheerleader 16 year old.

    Your puny weapons are useless against me
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    Yeah the whole idea is a bit weird. I don't know if you can do a kid in a super hero outfit without either looking like a Halloween costume or else looking odd and out of place.

  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User regular
    I actually think the first images that were posted are much better looking then the other artists interpretations. I kind of hate all the others.



    "There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing." -- Andrew Jackson
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    I actually think the first images that were posted are much better looking then the other artists interpretations. I kind of hate all the others.

    Yeah. If you have $X to spend, and this time around you're demanding that the artwork not get farmed out to a third-world shop that doesn't grasp the cultural milieu of the book, then you're probably going to get less impressive art. It's kind of like when you insist that that oil pipeline be constructed using only unionized American-citizen labor, but also insist on the lowest bidder...

  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Actually, something that is happening right now is people in the US are hitting puberty earlier, so who knows it could be an ultra progressive movement to reduce the isolation of children who develop too early pptttllb


    on an unrelated note, I just realized that What Women Want fails the Bechdel test

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    An article from a different perspective, but with the same overall point.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/branded/2012/03/huggies_diapers_first_its_ad_used_a_doltish_dad_then_came_the_outcry_.single.html
    It’s just bad marketing. There’s no reason to alienate half the population, even if that half is not currently the central customer for your product. I’ve previously written about Burger King ads targeted at young men—ads that had the ancillary effect of repulsing basically all women. Not a winning strategy in the long run. And while the long run may take a little bit longer with diapers, it’s easy to envision a day not too far off when men make 20 or 30 percent or, hey, even 50 percent of diaper purchases. Brand image is a complicated thing: It sets and hardens, and can be tough to rejigger. Might as well establish dad-friendly branding right now, instead of scrambling to make up ground later.

    Which I got to from this Wired review for Brave, which felt the movie essentially destroyed all the men.
    The tragedy produced by this type of lazy gender making creates a gender seesaw on which one gender must be pushed down in order for the other to rise up. In order for men to be strong and powerful in our stories, women must become vapid and hyper-sexualized. In order for women to become intelligent, smart, and resourceful, men must be portrayed as doofuses. Welcome to the culture wars, America. How’s that working for you?

    Imagine if that was the norm for you. You'd be pissed too.

    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/
    I write news there. It is fun.
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    I like the argument in that link, "it's ok to portray all husband/fathers as dopey incompetent goofs compared to their more intelligent and capable wives... because it's at least a little bit true; we've all seen it before." I'm having trouble believing that's serious.

  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    What is the thread's opinion on this?

    http://blog.chron.com/houstonpolitics/2012/06/council-approves-5-per-head-strip-club-fee/

    Houston's Council of Wise Elders has decided that lonely men will pay an extra $5 on top of the admittance fee to strip clubs. My opinion is all dens of vice should pay the $5 fine - bars, strip clubs, escort services, and slot halls. While the money raised will do some good for the city, targeting Gentlemen's Clubs only, however, is sexism.

    FrenchCat2.jpg
  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    Do women who enter the strip clubs not have to pay the $5?

    Do male strip clubs also have to charge the $5 to lonely men who walk in?

    Are they unfairly targeting strip clubs because it's easy? Yup.
    Is this a form of sexism against men? I don't think so. On the contrary, I think the strippers become more of a victim from this law than the lonely men. $5 extra at the door means $5 less per person in tips. And since one of the best ways to guarantee gender equality is to lift women up financially, I see this move as dis-empowering women because it takes away the strippers' income.

    Like the article said, if the council really cared about taxing "the cause" or whatever nonsense Texas is claiming now, the council would have taxed apartment dwellers. But you know, strippers evil.


    another edit:
    I also like how, apparently, Houston can't ask its citizens to raise money for rape kits and instead has to single out strip clubs to finance helping victims of rape. That is pretty fucked up.

    Lilnoobs on
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    Obviously only men patronize strip clubs.

  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    emnmnme wrote: »
    What is the thread's opinion on this?

    http://blog.chron.com/houstonpolitics/2012/06/council-approves-5-per-head-strip-club-fee/

    Houston's Council of Wise Elders has decided that lonely men will pay an extra $5 on top of the admittance fee to strip clubs. My opinion is all dens of vice should pay the $5 fine - bars, strip clubs, escort services, and slot halls. While the money raised will do some good for the city, targeting Gentlemen's Clubs only, however, is sexism.

    I'd actually say that it's not sexist, I'm sure any strip club would tell you "Hey, we're for men and women!" and if they want to avoid being called sexist due to that then levying a tax on them is fine. The problem is the fact that its a special 'rape kit levy', which associates going to a strip club with raping someone. That is highly unfair.

    Your puny weapons are useless against me
  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User regular
    I don't see anything sexist about the tax, but tying strip clubs to rape seems a little off.



    "There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing." -- Andrew Jackson
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    I don't see anything sexist about the tax, but tying strip clubs to rape seems a little off.

    Little off? Any fool can see the goal is to raise money for the city and strip clubs are easy to shake down since few people are eager to defend them. It's kind of brilliant - it could hurt a person's reputation or offend their conscience to be on the side of strip clubs; the local government is adding this 'tax' because they have calculated no one prominent is Houston is going to speak up against it. That men are the ones primarily patronizing these places is icing on the cake.

    FrenchCat2.jpg
  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User regular
    emnmnme wrote: »
    I don't see anything sexist about the tax, but tying strip clubs to rape seems a little off.

    Little off? Any fool can see the goal is to raise money for the city and strip clubs are easy to shake down since few people are eager to defend them. It's kind of brilliant - it could hurt a person's reputation or offend their conscience to be on the side of strip clubs; the local government is adding this 'tax' because they have calculated no one prominent is Houston is going to speak up against it. That men are the ones primarily patronizing these places is icing on the cake.

    Do you take issue with the tax? From your first post it seemed like you did not. I agree with you that a tax on dens of iniquity generally isn't a bad idea, but even a tax that is just on strip clubs doesn't seem like a bad idea.



    "There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing." -- Andrew Jackson
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    emnmnme wrote: »
    I don't see anything sexist about the tax, but tying strip clubs to rape seems a little off.

    Little off? Any fool can see the goal is to raise money for the city and strip clubs are easy to shake down since few people are eager to defend them. It's kind of brilliant - it could hurt a person's reputation or offend their conscience to be on the side of strip clubs; the local government is adding this 'tax' because they have calculated no one prominent is Houston is going to speak up against it. That men are the ones primarily patronizing these places is icing on the cake.

    Do you take issue with the tax? From your first post it seemed like you did not. I agree with you that a tax on dens of iniquity generally isn't a bad idea, but even a tax that is just on strip clubs doesn't seem like a bad idea.

    Apply this kind of sin tax evenly to all places that offer late night entertainment for adults, so everyone feels it. This kind of fairness and equality would meet with too much resistance, I'd imagine, since it would affect normal people and not just perverted men with too many loose $20 bills in their pockets.

    And why the hell does Houston have a backlog of 6,000 rape kits? What the hell is this? Who is running this circus?

    FrenchCat2.jpg
  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    Or instead of fucking over people who work at those places and placing the burden entirely on them, how about Houston just pass a damn city-wide tax to pay for the rape kits of its own citizens. What would that cost them? A few fucking cents a year per person?

  • MillMill Registered User regular
    The $5 tax on people entering strip clubs doesn't strike me as sexist. I don't think bars really need such a tax, I'm pretty sure any taxes on the booze they sell gets passed right on to the customers in most cases. I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of applying it slot halls, not because we should equally fine all sinful adult activities, rather gambling inflicts it's own toll on society, so it's only fair to have something in place to cover that toll.

    The strip club levy really shouldn't be an issue if everyone that enters is paying it. I could see how people would get riled up with that money going to purchasing rape kits; however, that's not saying all people who go to a strip club are rapists. I wouldn't be surprised if there were cases where a rapist, who targeted strippers, never entered the club his victims worked in. Sickos tend to go to places where they have easy access to potential victims, something that is proven quite clear with pedophiles.

  • PLAPLA Registered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    Or instead of fucking over people who work at those places and placing the burden entirely on them, how about Houston just pass a damn city-wide tax to pay for the rape kits of its own citizens. What would that cost them? A few fucking cents a year per person?

    I know this one. I think it's "personal responsibility" and "communist invasion". Am I close?

  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User regular
    Vice taxes are actual pretty great. You impose them with the stated intent of wiping out the vice, but you know that demand for vices is pretty inelastic, so you can probably expect the behavior to continue indefinitely at more or less the same rate, and cash in while still pretending the motivation wasn't revenue.



    "There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing." -- Andrew Jackson
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    PLA wrote: »
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    Or instead of fucking over people who work at those places and placing the burden entirely on them, how about Houston just pass a damn city-wide tax to pay for the rape kits of its own citizens. What would that cost them? A few fucking cents a year per person?

    I know this one. I think it's "personal responsibility" and "communist invasion". Am I close?

    Nah, they passed a drainage tax here with almost no problems. I pay the city $200 more this year than I did last year to make sure my house doesn't float away during the next hurricane.

    FrenchCat2.jpg
  • MillMill Registered User regular
    Vice taxes are actual pretty great. You impose them with the stated intent of wiping out the vice, but you know that demand for vices is pretty inelastic, so you can probably expect the behavior to continue indefinitely at more or less the same rate, and cash in while still pretending the motivation wasn't revenue.

    That and you effective make it less profitable for organized crime to do because most people would rather pay the tax and do it legally with zero worry of being charged with a crime instead of getting it cheaper by being screwed over by the criminal justice system. So right there the government saves money, on top of the revenue generate by the vice tax.

  • SpeakerSpeaker Registered User regular
    Mill wrote: »
    Vice taxes are actual pretty great. You impose them with the stated intent of wiping out the vice, but you know that demand for vices is pretty inelastic, so you can probably expect the behavior to continue indefinitely at more or less the same rate, and cash in while still pretending the motivation wasn't revenue.

    That and you effective make it less profitable for organized crime to do because most people would rather pay the tax and do it legally with zero worry of being charged with a crime instead of getting it cheaper by being screwed over by the criminal justice system. So right there the government saves money, on top of the revenue generate by the vice tax.

    On the other hand, you end up setting your taxes at rates designed to maximize sales revenue because your state leans on the money, rather than at rates designed to lower consumption.

    Being walkers with the dawn and morning,
    Walkers with the sun and morning, we are not afraid of night,
    Nor days of gloom, nor darkness -
    Being walkers with the sun and morning.
  • override367override367 Registered User regular
    Isn't it unconstitutional to charge men $5 to use something but a single woman doesn't have to pay $5?

    I'm not talking the morals or anything of it, but my understanding of the 14th amendment makes that seem not kosher legally

  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    No where does it limit the tax by gender.

  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    No where does it limit the tax by gender.

    Riiight. And if Houston decided to tax birth control pills to help fund an anti-cyber bullying campaign ... I mean, men could take birth control pills to help treat their acne so both genders would be taxed, not just women, right?

    emnmnme on
    FrenchCat2.jpg
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