As far as value, no other starter offers this many high quality miniatures for the price.
But no other game prices miniatures outside of the starter as absurdly either. This is going to be, IMO, the breaking point of the game. The starter is fantastic value. The kits released after it have been the exact opposite, especially when compared to the competition.
I know it's different for you because you are an Australia, but GW's prices, per miniature, are actually pretty much on par with their competition here in the states (of course, there are exceptions). The big barrier has more or less been that the number of figures required to play is is much higher, which AoS removes.
I'm not seeing it. I'm looking at the US prices for Malifaux, Infinity and Warmachine, and the closest is Warmachine, but they're also metal which is inherintly more expensive, as is Infinity.
Model count is definitely a contributing factor to price. I had no problems with $300 for the Heirophant I got, because it was equivalent to a small army itself. 10 ranged infantry for $20 each? That's a whole other level of absurd.
Besides, he asked if the starter itself was worth picking up.
It's only worth picking up a starter if you intend on continuing with it. It's worth knowing the pricing of the rest of the range in relation to it. The starter is fantastic value, you get two very nice armies in it that are worth expanding. When looked at in isolation of what's in there. When you see what you'll be paying to expand on it, not so much.
-Loki- on
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
As far as value, no other starter offers this many high quality miniatures for the price.
But no other game prices miniatures outside of the starter as absurdly either. This is going to be, IMO, the breaking point of the game. The starter is fantastic value. The kits released after it have been the exact opposite, especially when compared to the competition.
I know it's different for you because you are an Australia, but GW's prices, per miniature, are actually pretty much on par with their competition here in the states (of course, there are exceptions). The big barrier has more or less been that the number of figures required to play is is much higher, which AoS removes.
I'm not seeing it. I'm looking at the US prices for Malifaux, Infinity and Warmachine, and the closest is Warmachine, but they're also metal which is inherintly more expensive, as is Infinity.
Model count is definitely a contributing factor to price. I had no problems with $300 for the Heirophant I got, because it was equivalent to a small army itself. 10 ranged infantry for $20 each? That's a whole other level of absurd.
Besides, he asked if the starter itself was worth picking up.
It's only worth picking up a starter if you intend on continuing with it. It's worth knowing the pricing of the rest of the range in relation to it. The starter is fantastic value, you get two very nice armies in it that are worth expanding. When looked at in isolation of what's in there. When you see what you'll be paying to expand on it, not so much.
It helps if, you know, you reference the specific models you were looking at. What ranged infantry are $20/piece?
Either way, I've done this comparison several times. On a purely per-model basis, GW is not really that much more expensive. In most cases, you're looking at something like .25-$1 more per model in a like comparison (ie, similar sized models between ranges). Example: Exemplar Bastions are $45 for 5 Terminator sized models. Terminators are $50, a difference of $1/model (unless you're looking at Blood Angels Terminators). Of course, there are exceptions (Blood Knight lol), but what makes GW games expensive is the model count in most cases, not the actual models themselves.
I disagree that a starter is only worth picking up if you want to continue with it. I bought the AoS starter and have no intention of filling out either army. I got specifically to learn the game, and to have a nice two player option to teach new people.
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Dr_KeenbeanDumb as a buttPlanet Express ShipRegistered Userregular
I disagree that a starter is only worth picking up if you want to continue with it. I bought the AoS starter and have no intention of filling out either army. I got specifically to learn the game, and to have a nice two player option to teach new people.
This so very much. Maybe I'll expand at some point but right now what came in the box is good enough for me. I really don't want to go any bigger. I'm sure I will (dat Lord Castellant doe), but there's no urgency.
Also, @Grape Ape buy the AoS starter from Amazon. I've found it goes for like $75-90 (depending on shipping costs) as opposed to $125. I actually just scored a brand new copy of Assassinorum from Amazon for $77 shipped. Are GW loosening their draconian policies or have people just run out of fucks to give?
So are people reaching some sort of consensus on AoS and whether it's worth ponying up for the starter box? It's been out for about a ~month now, right? Is it worth a damn as a skirmish game?
I genuinely don't know what to make of it. On the one hand, I really want this to be a herald of GW getting it's act together. On the other hand, the 4-page rules and synopsis that I've looked at seem kind of... abrupt.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that you might want to see if it's gained any popularity in your local area, since there seems to be a lot of variance in whether it's taking hold or not.
For what it's worth, I live near GW's heartland and AoS seems pretty dead on arrival among the circles I run in.
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Halos Nach TariffCan you blame me?I'm too famous.Registered Userregular
Conversely here in Manchester (which is, I believe, one of the larger GW stores) AoS seems pretty popular, certainly there are no fewer people down to play than their were for WHFB, and often more.
The starter box would probably be pretty good even if you just use it as a sort of board game that you can dig out when someone comes round. The game is fun, but it is more than a little flawed.
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Dr_KeenbeanDumb as a buttPlanet Express ShipRegistered Userregular
So the new Bloodreaver box is $58USD for 20 models.
That's more in line with getting new people playing. I was seriously expecting $50 for 10.
So the new Bloodreaver box is $58USD for 20 models.
That's more in line with getting new people playing. I was seriously expecting $50 for 10.
That's pretty much in line with the prices for most troops in 8th edition, barring egregious examples like Witch Elves. It's not an increase, which is good, but it's also not a change in overall strategy except for forcing you to buy 20 dudes instead of ~10.
I disagree that a starter is only worth picking up if you want to continue with it. I bought the AoS starter and have no intention of filling out either army. I got specifically to learn the game, and to have a nice two player option to teach new people.
This so very much. Maybe I'll expand at some point but right now what came in the box is good enough for me. I really don't want to go any bigger. I'm sure I will (dat Lord Castellant doe), but there's no urgency.
Also, @Grape Ape buy the AoS starter from Amazon. I've found it goes for like $75-90 (depending on shipping costs) as opposed to $125. I actually just scored a brand new copy of Assassinorum from Amazon for $77 shipped. Are GW loosening their draconian policies or have people just run out of fucks to give?
Oh wow. Amazon comes through again, and with a Prime option! I suppose it's time to make up my own damn mind about whether it's fun.
AoS Seems to have died in the arse in the local area. The Fantasy Community is really upset. There were a few really passionate Fantasy Blogs/podcasts and they're either winding down or refocusing on KoW or Mordheim in one case.
As for the starter set offering value, the minis are nice, I think the game can be fun ... But lacking a true balancing factor I think it will lack longevity and a community. I had a lot of friends get really psyched for it, really wanted to like it get starters, play heaps of games with the starter stuff and their original armies, then sadly walk away and start flogging their stuff off.
I've played a single game which I found pretty fun, but all the really passioante fantasy players I know have given it a fair shot and found it wanting.
I put models on Instagram now: asher_paints
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
It's worth noting that basically every post I've seen here where fantasy had a big presence in the meta, AoSseems to have killed it and where there was no presence, there seems to be interest. Given the low interest in fantasy, this bodes well for GW.
It's worth noting that basically every post I've seen here where fantasy had a big presence in the meta, AoSseems to have killed it and where there was no presence, there seems to be interest. Given the low interest in fantasy, this bodes well for GW.
Maybe? It's killing it in favor of a skirmish type game, and there are some *very* fun skirmish games. Is AoS fun? I'll find out. Is it fun enough to unseat X-Wing?
It's worth noting that basically every post I've seen here where fantasy had a big presence in the meta, AoSseems to have killed it and where there was no presence, there seems to be interest. Given the low interest in fantasy, this bodes well for GW.
Maybe? It's killing it in favor of a skirmish type game, and there are some *very* fun skirmish games. Is AoS fun? I'll find out. Is it fun enough to unseat X-Wing?
I'm not claiming its competing or killing those games. I'm saying where WHFB was popular, AoS is not and vice versa.
It's worth noting that basically every post I've seen here where fantasy had a big presence in the meta, AoSseems to have killed it and where there was no presence, there seems to be interest. Given the low interest in fantasy, this bodes well for GW.
Maybe? It's killing it in favor of a skirmish type game, and there are some *very* fun skirmish games. Is AoS fun? I'll find out. Is it fun enough to unseat X-Wing?
I'm not claiming its competing or killing those games. I'm saying where WHFB was popular, AoS is not and vice versa.
That's certainly not a hard rule; I know of at least a few communities where WHFB was dead and AoS hasn't sparked any interest. GW's managed to push a lot of players to other systems over the years and AoS quite simply isn't enough to bring them back.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
One thing that has me concerned for the long term health of AoS is that their new campaign book is up for pre-order at $75. I thought that when they put out the core rules as a free download, they'd be going with a plan of cheap books and make all their money off the plastic. Now I'm not sure what they're up to.
Also, the new units up are 20 in a box. So now I'm thinking that instead of making AoS a smaller sized game, they're going all in on the 'play what you want' thing and hoping people buy lots of models. Which is fine I guess, but what I'm not getting is a feel for what they want AoS to be. Is it for large games? Small games? It just seems a bit of a mess, as if the most important change was getting rid of points so people would buy all the models, and anything specifically game related would sort itself out.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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Halos Nach TariffCan you blame me?I'm too famous.Registered Userregular
In my experience AoS works best in small-ish games; 5-10 scrolls per side with ~20-30 models in the larger scrolls, seems to work well enough. Any larger and it gets a little clunky. Of course I can't say if that's is an intentional design choice or not, I suspect not given the, 'put all your models on the table,' tract. I guess I'll see what sort of recommended/pre-designed games they have in the campaign book thingy. If they're basing the price of the books on the fact that the End Times books sold well at that price point I think that may be missing the reason behind the success of the End Times books.
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Dr_KeenbeanDumb as a buttPlanet Express ShipRegistered Userregular
The books just provide fluff and new battleplans to play out the battles talked about in the fluff. The ones in the initial book don't have any requirements for faction or army size.
I'm more than a little annoyed that they're dropping another $75 book already and just trickling out models.
I really hope we get a tutorial on how to do the scarred, dark flesh they use on some of those Bloodreavers. That shit looks so good.
They don't specifically go over how to do the darker skin shades, but the Bloodreaver painting tutorial here might be useful for it anyway. You could try substituting the light skin shades for darker ones.
I'm more than a little annoyed that they're dropping another $75 book already and just trickling out models.
It's honestly baffling me that we're looking at the new releases consisting of nothing but Sigmarines and Chaos for months when we still don't know what most of the game's factions are going to look like.
That doesn't sound like a good way to keep players interested in the new game (or model range) when I would have expected the first few months to be critical in determining whether it manages to secure attention.
With how vastly different the Sigmarines are to previous warhammer I was pretty interested and curious to see the other factions with that level of overhaul and transformation. The other factions being (so far) the same Warhammer miniatures from before with new boxes and round bases is extremely underwhelming.
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Eh, I think GW is handling this transition as well as can possibly be expected.
All armies were playable within the new ruleset on day 1, as opposed to the normal edition churn where you may wait months/years to get an update within the new ruleset.
I feel like people are already complaining about the release schedule. Updating the entire range in rapid fire week-by-week releases is likely too much for GWs customer base to handle.
Besides, they need to rebuild their universe before introducing those factions, which is exactly what they're doing.
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
To be honest I'm not too down on the recent releases if only because the Korn Bloodstorm Bloodmans are inherently more human and relatable than the Stormfront Sigmarines, in spite of their weird square asses and oops-I-tripped-on-a-rock poses.
Because chrissake the Sigmarine archer models are dire.
Like almost everything about Age of Sigmar, reaction to the Eternals seems kind of mixed. I got turned off their aesthetic almost instantly because they seemed like a blatant attempt to export Space Marines into a Fantasy setting, and most of their kits appearing basically indistinguishable from each other hasn't made me revise my opinion.
I think the Khorne models are pretty great, on the other hand. They're just not an army I'm interested in buying.
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
edited August 2015
Well, its like they're trying to hardest to go above and beyond even the blandest space marine chapter in being completely faceless and devoid of personality. Which is fucking weird because they're essentially Einherjar who look like buff 300 Persian Immortals which should be more interesting than this is.
But, specifically, the models. The basic Liberators are weird in that in spite of being multipart kits they're basically monopose minis. If you're using shields you're basically building all of them in that one pose, if you're using the dual weapons you're pretty much building them in that one pose (another nitpick: paying extra for dual use kits you're probably never going to use the alt options for). Ironically, this would be absolutely fantastic for a ranked unit, but for expensive models on skirmish bases it just looks boring. Like, compare this with Space Marines, which come in similar components, and you're building at least 3/5 of your box with the same weapon but you can actually do things to the poses make them at least somewhat unique.
The Judicators, though. You've got a dual-use kit and both options look bad in varying ways, more or less because its a dual-use kit and modelling to accommodate both weapon types leads to it looking like one of those Liefeld drawings where he obviously did the pose first and then drew a gnarly oversized weapon in the characters' hands after the fact. And its not even a particularly good pose to begin with.
A friend of mine did made a pretty good post that enunciates just how bad those models are.
Or in other words, it's drawn to the exact same center point that every single other sigmarine is, which is one of the many reasons they all look and feel exactly the same no matter what they're doing and start to blend together when you look at many of them at once. The only ones that manage to stand out are the ones carrying shields because the shields draw the eye towards the specific activity the shield is meant to perform, and even then it comes off as a happy accident. Even those four monopose guys from earlier manage to, by themselves, look great. It's probably why that specific model was picked to be the free White Dwarf mini.
Compare and contrast someone like this guy.
His entire body is twisted and posed in such a way as to emphasize what he is doing. That leg looks strange when you take it by itself, but the model as a whole works really well from any angle. The basics of his technique are correct, but the entire posing is exaggerated in little ways - his arm doesn't have to swing that far back after release, the torso is a little too twisted, but it all works because the point of the model isn't just to depict a guy holding a bow in a way that resembles objects on a table but to depict his movement and intent. You can't just tell that he's an archer, you can tell what kind of archer he is-his head is looking directly where he is aiming the bow and his hand indicates his anchor point was by his cheek, meaning he is a precision shot, or a sniper - the elevated position giving the illusion that he's aiming slightly down helps give this impression. This is on top of the visual cues the model gives you to tell you which faction it belongs to; I don't even have to tell you which one, it's so immediately obvious, despite the fact that the game has a lot of factions with archers and a lot of elven factions at that, but it might take you a while to articulate WHY or HOW you can identify this. (hell, you can tell he is an elf without seeing his face or ears.) It's not a masterclass of sculpture, but it's pretty damn good.
Compare:
This is a Stormcast Eternal. He has all the elements that make him a Stormcast Eternal, literally the exact same armor and helmet and all, to make sure you don't miss what he is. He is standing ramrod straight and is holding a bow and arrow in his hand which is how they signify he is an archer. Your eye is naturally drawn away from said bow and arrow, emphasizing that weapon loadouts are interchangable on these identical bodies. There is nothing in particular to indicate that he's performing archery while in combat or in any kind of action-y or dynamic way, or how he is firing his bow. He doesn't feel like he's firing at someone with intent to kill and doesn't seem to feel very threatened, either.
Let's do the Goblin again.
Look at how different the Goblin is from both of them. He's "plucking" at the string, which is a clearly wrong technique but every other detail of his technique is fine; this is comical rather than just inaccurate, and in character for Goblins. He's aiming slightly more upwards, meaning he fires in volleys instead of precise aimed shots like the Elf does. His entire body is posed backwards, not just to volley but also, in combination with his hunched head, giving the impression that he'd prefer to stay away from the enemy and is crouching to avoid being hit. A cowardly impression.
But what about human-like models meant to operate together as a whole? GW has done those too.
Each individual archer has character. Sure, they're doing the sideways bow thing, but it's done for a certain kind of emphasis; these are Empire Huntsmen, not ranked soldiers, more militia than army, and keeping your bow at an angle is something real huntsmen do so this is just an exaggeration. Of those that are holding their bows upright, their technique is spot on, all focused on the immediate moments after release; they really look like they have just fired their bows. The eye is drawn to how different each model is, to the bows, all over each mini and the strange details like someone bringing a hunting bird with them and the guy who has placed his arrows into the ground like he's at a village archery tournament. Even the guy holding a sword shows that he's ready to fight but his pose suggests he's not very into it compared to someone who has the proper armor for. Compare:
Five almost identical guys. If you look you'll see one's a leader because his plume is different and one's doing a shuffling crouch like he has to pee. They're meant to evoke "stoic mercilessness" but mostly they're just standing there with their faces obscured by their own pauldrons if looked at head-on.The only thing drawing the eye is the paint job. They look "off" at first because the arrow draws attention to how the bow looks basically like an undrawn bow and seem static because they're not depicted actually firing or reloading but just standing there with their arrows ready, and everything goes to shit from there. They don't look like they're actually at war, firing at anyone in specific, or even like they're doing archery as opposed to posing for a camera. Aside from their legs, they might just as easily be these guys. They even have a nearly identical silhouette when looked at from a distance if you look at the ones that don't have shields, and the silhouette is the single strongest element of their design.
But they're clearly meant to evoke Space Marines, right? Well, even Space Marines manage to be dynamic depending on their role and loadout. Compare again.
These are four different loadouts of Sigmarines. You wouldn't be able to tell that easily without enlarging the picture, and even the different paint jobs that try to make them seem more different are failing - I'd be impressed if you immediately noticed that the front rank is holding hammers and the third rank isn't.
You could tell what these were without enlarging them. The Assault Marines have an altered silhouette when looked at from a distance compared to tactical marines and devastators are different from both, helped by their different backpacks. Where the tactical marines stand and aim or present their shoulder armor towards the enemy, Assault marines are posed moving forward, sometimes in the moments of takeoff or landing. And I won't be the first to say the tacsquad looks a little static, because it does, but they've done a lot of tweaks with it. The Devastators are completely different, kneeling or holding their weapons in a way that emphasizes their physical weight (as opposed to the Sigmarines holding their bolt-bows awkwardly in their hands because they're just so big and unwieldy when placed on their 3D model.)
And this is all without me being a particular fan of them. Some of the best 40k sculpts are Eldar for how different each element looks from the next while still being unique, and not just because of paint jobs. 40k has even managed to make it so that different chapters of Space Marines look different not just in paint but in little details on the models (and posing - look at some space wolves figs sometime and figure out just how different their posing is from blood angels or ultramarines. A lot of effort went into that kind of character.)
Action, posing, dynamism, and drawing those elements from life. That's how it all works, how GW has been quite amazing at it in the past, and how their new totally premium 10-dollar per figure line is a huge step backwards aside from being able to look good at first, from a distance, by an untrained eye.
Edit: And this isn't even getting into the really dumb stuff about the judicator archer. He's holding the arrow like its nocked, ready to fire, but the bow is still in its resting position. The arrows in the quiver don't even look like they should be able to fit into it, and he can't actually aim it because he can't see over his pauldron, among other things.
Played a first game of AoS last night. It was not really giving the game a fair shake because I forgot my main box of orcs so had a kind of random army, we were playing an unauthorized 3 player variant since we had just 3 players show up and finally one player thought he was taking on the other two while everyone else thought it was a free for all. Some thoughts though.
1) No point system really is a pain. I listened to several tales of games that were too one sided to really forge a narrative or be fun. Everyone else in the group seems to want to fix AoS with a point system. I still think that you kind of have to embrace AoS for what it is.
2) It isn't really a skirmish game and that takes away the appeal of painting up forces in a short time and not having to paint so many duplicate models. Maybe as WHFB players we are doing it wrong but on the other hand regular ass infantry are going to be pretty useless and uninteresting if you aren't fielding quite a few of them.
3) Maybe the shooting rules work ok for regular BS infantry. They are super dumb for war machines and things like Stormvermin. I'm sure Ogre and Chaos cannons are like really, really super dumb. At the very least you shouldn't be able to shoot out of combat at target that you are not engaged with.
4) You really can have fun playing basically any game whatsoever with friends. For AoS, the simplicity of the rules and the impossibility of taking wining or losing the game seriously is probably a bonus here.
5) Apparently our store isn't selling AoS boxes despite the fact that the majority of WHFB players are giving the game a chance. The Khorne players picked up a box for the models but that's about it. A few new people have expressed interest but no non-WHFB players have actually shown up to play either. To me that's really the biggest disappointment because the death of WHFB would certainly be easier to swallow if I could see evidence of AoS bringing new blood to the Blood God hobby.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
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Halos Nach TariffCan you blame me?I'm too famous.Registered Userregular
3) Maybe the shooting rules work ok for regular BS infantry. They are super dumb for war machines and things like Stormvermin. I'm sure Ogre and Chaos cannons are like really, really super dumb. At the very least you shouldn't be able to shoot out of combat at target that you are not engaged with.
The Ogre cannon is actually really bad in AoS; it's not even good in combat anymore! The Hellcannon though, yeah, that thing is pretty silly.
I feel shooting in general is not quite as powerful as it seems due to the initative roll-off bringing the potential to close the gap quickly (or, admittedly, allow for two shooting rounds in a row.) As melee units get to attack in the opponents turn but shooting units can't shoot you end up with twice as many melee rounds as shooting ones. I'd imagine a proper gunline (especially one with a bunch of wizards for blasting away with Mortal wounds) would be both annoying and boring.
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
@Dr_Keenbean, you wanted a streamlined fantasy skirmish game? You should look into Lion Rampant and the fantasy version that's coming out in December called Dragon Rampant.
It's like the Bullet Train of miniatures games. Anything that might slow the game down has been leveled or streamlined out of the way but it still gets you to where you want to go. Here's a quick summary I wrote up for my local email list:
Lion Rampant:
Rules are about 24 pages.
This is a set of medieval skirmish rules for about 40 or so models on a side fielded in units of either 6 or 12. The game is really about the units with the individual models mainly serving as a way to count casualties. Overall the rules seem pretty simple yet interesting and almost astonishingly quick to play. A fantasy variant is due out this December. I'm pretty excited about this game.
*There only about a dozen unit types (Men at arms, sergeants, archers, etc.) with some optional upgrades for each but they are flexible enough that it seems pretty easy to proxy in units. These Black Orcs are Men at Arms and these Savage Orcs are Fierce Foot, etc.
* Players take alternating turns but if a unit fails to activate then that person's turn ends immediately and play passes to his opponent. This is similar to how Blood Bowl works but in LR the activation is a totally separate step.
* The target number for successful activating depends on both the unit and the type of action which allows for some interesting tradeoffs. Knights are happy to charge down their enemies (actually they have to test not to charge!) but are not so interested in listening to where their general thinks they should move to. That is, Knights have a low target number for activating an attack but a higher one for activating a move.
* Combat is simply a matter of rolling 12 dice (six if the unit is at half strength) and counting up the number of dice that meet the target number. The target number depends on whether a unit is attacking, defending or shooting and all hits are divided by the target's armor rating with leftover hits being discarded.
*After a melee units separate and units that take casualties have to take courage tests and those that fail might be shaken or flee the field entirely depending. Hint, don't roll snake eyes on courage tests!
* There are scenarios and also a system of boasting that can lead to bonus points.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
I'm having a really hard time figuring out the scale on that thing. Is it seriously just the same size as a standard sigmarine with the addition of bigger wings and floaty stuff on the base?
The prices of GW's hero models have been flat out ridiculous for a while now.
Thinking about it, the fact that no one else will be making suitable heros for the new aesthetic is reason enough to not collect AOS.
But I guess if you like oversized heros held up in the air by something swirling then this is the golden age of Citadel miniatures. Can't wait for super sized orc shaman being held up by tendrils of pure WAAAAAAGH.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
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I'm not seeing it. I'm looking at the US prices for Malifaux, Infinity and Warmachine, and the closest is Warmachine, but they're also metal which is inherintly more expensive, as is Infinity.
Model count is definitely a contributing factor to price. I had no problems with $300 for the Heirophant I got, because it was equivalent to a small army itself. 10 ranged infantry for $20 each? That's a whole other level of absurd.
It's only worth picking up a starter if you intend on continuing with it. It's worth knowing the pricing of the rest of the range in relation to it. The starter is fantastic value, you get two very nice armies in it that are worth expanding. When looked at in isolation of what's in there. When you see what you'll be paying to expand on it, not so much.
It helps if, you know, you reference the specific models you were looking at. What ranged infantry are $20/piece?
Either way, I've done this comparison several times. On a purely per-model basis, GW is not really that much more expensive. In most cases, you're looking at something like .25-$1 more per model in a like comparison (ie, similar sized models between ranges). Example: Exemplar Bastions are $45 for 5 Terminator sized models. Terminators are $50, a difference of $1/model (unless you're looking at Blood Angels Terminators). Of course, there are exceptions (Blood Knight lol), but what makes GW games expensive is the model count in most cases, not the actual models themselves.
I disagree that a starter is only worth picking up if you want to continue with it. I bought the AoS starter and have no intention of filling out either army. I got specifically to learn the game, and to have a nice two player option to teach new people.
This so very much. Maybe I'll expand at some point but right now what came in the box is good enough for me. I really don't want to go any bigger. I'm sure I will (dat Lord Castellant doe), but there's no urgency.
Also, @Grape Ape buy the AoS starter from Amazon. I've found it goes for like $75-90 (depending on shipping costs) as opposed to $125. I actually just scored a brand new copy of Assassinorum from Amazon for $77 shipped. Are GW loosening their draconian policies or have people just run out of fucks to give?
3DS: 1650-8480-6786
Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that you might want to see if it's gained any popularity in your local area, since there seems to be a lot of variance in whether it's taking hold or not.
For what it's worth, I live near GW's heartland and AoS seems pretty dead on arrival among the circles I run in.
The starter box would probably be pretty good even if you just use it as a sort of board game that you can dig out when someone comes round. The game is fun, but it is more than a little flawed.
That's more in line with getting new people playing. I was seriously expecting $50 for 10.
3DS: 1650-8480-6786
Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705
That's pretty much in line with the prices for most troops in 8th edition, barring egregious examples like Witch Elves. It's not an increase, which is good, but it's also not a change in overall strategy except for forcing you to buy 20 dudes instead of ~10.
£20 for 20 plague monks, great!
£20 for 2 plague censor bearers, madness.
I just don't get how they come to that price for two single piece small figures.
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Pestilens-Plague-Censer-Bearers
The much fancier looking Plague Priest is cheaper.
3DS: 1650-8480-6786
Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705
Oh wow. Amazon comes through again, and with a Prime option! I suppose it's time to make up my own damn mind about whether it's fun.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OLcAGbXhWIVcl5IziVpG0eKFJS3xi_Sac9kYMkRFvD8/edit?usp=sharing
As for the starter set offering value, the minis are nice, I think the game can be fun ... But lacking a true balancing factor I think it will lack longevity and a community. I had a lot of friends get really psyched for it, really wanted to like it get starters, play heaps of games with the starter stuff and their original armies, then sadly walk away and start flogging their stuff off.
I've played a single game which I found pretty fun, but all the really passioante fantasy players I know have given it a fair shot and found it wanting.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OLcAGbXhWIVcl5IziVpG0eKFJS3xi_Sac9kYMkRFvD8/edit?usp=sharing
I'm not claiming its competing or killing those games. I'm saying where WHFB was popular, AoS is not and vice versa.
That's certainly not a hard rule; I know of at least a few communities where WHFB was dead and AoS hasn't sparked any interest. GW's managed to push a lot of players to other systems over the years and AoS quite simply isn't enough to bring them back.
Also, the new units up are 20 in a box. So now I'm thinking that instead of making AoS a smaller sized game, they're going all in on the 'play what you want' thing and hoping people buy lots of models. Which is fine I guess, but what I'm not getting is a feel for what they want AoS to be. Is it for large games? Small games? It just seems a bit of a mess, as if the most important change was getting rid of points so people would buy all the models, and anything specifically game related would sort itself out.
I'm more than a little annoyed that they're dropping another $75 book already and just trickling out models.
3DS: 1650-8480-6786
Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705
They don't specifically go over how to do the darker skin shades, but the Bloodreaver painting tutorial here might be useful for it anyway. You could try substituting the light skin shades for darker ones.
It's honestly baffling me that we're looking at the new releases consisting of nothing but Sigmarines and Chaos for months when we still don't know what most of the game's factions are going to look like.
That doesn't sound like a good way to keep players interested in the new game (or model range) when I would have expected the first few months to be critical in determining whether it manages to secure attention.
All armies were playable within the new ruleset on day 1, as opposed to the normal edition churn where you may wait months/years to get an update within the new ruleset.
I feel like people are already complaining about the release schedule. Updating the entire range in rapid fire week-by-week releases is likely too much for GWs customer base to handle.
Besides, they need to rebuild their universe before introducing those factions, which is exactly what they're doing.
Because chrissake the Sigmarine archer models are dire.
Everyone else makes me salivate a bit
I think the Khorne models are pretty great, on the other hand. They're just not an army I'm interested in buying.
But, specifically, the models. The basic Liberators are weird in that in spite of being multipart kits they're basically monopose minis. If you're using shields you're basically building all of them in that one pose, if you're using the dual weapons you're pretty much building them in that one pose (another nitpick: paying extra for dual use kits you're probably never going to use the alt options for). Ironically, this would be absolutely fantastic for a ranked unit, but for expensive models on skirmish bases it just looks boring. Like, compare this with Space Marines, which come in similar components, and you're building at least 3/5 of your box with the same weapon but you can actually do things to the poses make them at least somewhat unique.
The Judicators, though. You've got a dual-use kit and both options look bad in varying ways, more or less because its a dual-use kit and modelling to accommodate both weapon types leads to it looking like one of those Liefeld drawings where he obviously did the pose first and then drew a gnarly oversized weapon in the characters' hands after the fact. And its not even a particularly good pose to begin with.
A friend of mine did made a pretty good post that enunciates just how bad those models are.
Edit: And this isn't even getting into the really dumb stuff about the judicator archer. He's holding the arrow like its nocked, ready to fire, but the bow is still in its resting position. The arrows in the quiver don't even look like they should be able to fit into it, and he can't actually aim it because he can't see over his pauldron, among other things.
something something shitting bricks
1) No point system really is a pain. I listened to several tales of games that were too one sided to really forge a narrative or be fun. Everyone else in the group seems to want to fix AoS with a point system. I still think that you kind of have to embrace AoS for what it is.
2) It isn't really a skirmish game and that takes away the appeal of painting up forces in a short time and not having to paint so many duplicate models. Maybe as WHFB players we are doing it wrong but on the other hand regular ass infantry are going to be pretty useless and uninteresting if you aren't fielding quite a few of them.
3) Maybe the shooting rules work ok for regular BS infantry. They are super dumb for war machines and things like Stormvermin. I'm sure Ogre and Chaos cannons are like really, really super dumb. At the very least you shouldn't be able to shoot out of combat at target that you are not engaged with.
4) You really can have fun playing basically any game whatsoever with friends. For AoS, the simplicity of the rules and the impossibility of taking wining or losing the game seriously is probably a bonus here.
5) Apparently our store isn't selling AoS boxes despite the fact that the majority of WHFB players are giving the game a chance. The Khorne players picked up a box for the models but that's about it. A few new people have expressed interest but no non-WHFB players have actually shown up to play either. To me that's really the biggest disappointment because the death of WHFB would certainly be easier to swallow if I could see evidence of AoS bringing new blood to the Blood God hobby.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
The Ogre cannon is actually really bad in AoS; it's not even good in combat anymore! The Hellcannon though, yeah, that thing is pretty silly.
I feel shooting in general is not quite as powerful as it seems due to the initative roll-off bringing the potential to close the gap quickly (or, admittedly, allow for two shooting rounds in a row.) As melee units get to attack in the opponents turn but shooting units can't shoot you end up with twice as many melee rounds as shooting ones. I'd imagine a proper gunline (especially one with a bunch of wizards for blasting away with Mortal wounds) would be both annoying and boring.
Could be worse.
That hellbrute thing's pretty much got a Hank Hill butt.
It's like the Bullet Train of miniatures games. Anything that might slow the game down has been leveled or streamlined out of the way but it still gets you to where you want to go. Here's a quick summary I wrote up for my local email list:
Rules are about 24 pages.
This is a set of medieval skirmish rules for about 40 or so models on a side fielded in units of either 6 or 12. The game is really about the units with the individual models mainly serving as a way to count casualties. Overall the rules seem pretty simple yet interesting and almost astonishingly quick to play. A fantasy variant is due out this December. I'm pretty excited about this game.
*There only about a dozen unit types (Men at arms, sergeants, archers, etc.) with some optional upgrades for each but they are flexible enough that it seems pretty easy to proxy in units. These Black Orcs are Men at Arms and these Savage Orcs are Fierce Foot, etc.
* Players take alternating turns but if a unit fails to activate then that person's turn ends immediately and play passes to his opponent. This is similar to how Blood Bowl works but in LR the activation is a totally separate step.
* The target number for successful activating depends on both the unit and the type of action which allows for some interesting tradeoffs. Knights are happy to charge down their enemies (actually they have to test not to charge!) but are not so interested in listening to where their general thinks they should move to. That is, Knights have a low target number for activating an attack but a higher one for activating a move.
* Combat is simply a matter of rolling 12 dice (six if the unit is at half strength) and counting up the number of dice that meet the target number. The target number depends on whether a unit is attacking, defending or shooting and all hits are divided by the target's armor rating with leftover hits being discarded.
*After a melee units separate and units that take casualties have to take courage tests and those that fail might be shaken or flee the field entirely depending. Hint, don't roll snake eyes on courage tests!
* There are scenarios and also a system of boasting that can lead to bonus points.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
i misread that as MM at first and was like wut
Tiny but righteous!
Thinking about it, the fact that no one else will be making suitable heros for the new aesthetic is reason enough to not collect AOS.
But I guess if you like oversized heros held up in the air by something swirling then this is the golden age of Citadel miniatures. Can't wait for super sized orc shaman being held up by tendrils of pure WAAAAAAGH.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)