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[Airbender/Korra] Book 2 and 3-ish discussion, now closed

24567101

Posts

  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    Knight_ wrote: »
    Technically, Aang did debend a guy who was as of that moment a convicted criminal sentenced to life in prison. Not sure if that makes it better, but it makes it different from what Amon has done.

    They're also different in that one took place during the day and the other at night. But neither of these differences are really relevant.

    It's very relevant. Yakone was sentenced, yet had JUST proved that standard methods of imprisonment wouldn't be possible, thus the sentence impossible to carry out. In both cases Aang has taken someones bending away, the act itself wasn't the punishment. Criminals are often kept in bonds that are most appropriate to their capabilities.

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Javen wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Knight_ wrote: »
    Technically, Aang did debend a guy who was as of that moment a convicted criminal sentenced to life in prison. Not sure if that makes it better, but it makes it different from what Amon has done.

    They're also different in that one took place during the day and the other at night. But neither of these differences are really relevant.

    It's very relevant. Yakone was sentenced, yet had JUST proved that standard methods of imprisonment wouldn't be possible, thus the sentence impossible to carry out. In both cases Aang has taken someones bending away, the act itself wasn't the punishment. Criminals are often kept in bonds that are most appropriate to their capabilities.

    And Amon was more capable of achieving this than the Avatar?

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    I mean, if someone just keeps escaping committing crimes and the law refuses or is unable to do anything about it what does Aang do? Cut off their hands? Cripple them?

    Clearly this is a road we mustn't tread down. Aang must be stopped.

  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    The Avatar, by definition of his or her existence, is not bound by normal rules.

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Lin Beifang, and indeed Republic City, says you're wrong.

    The Avatar is their link to the spirit world. They are not a perfect being who gets do whatever they want.

  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    Lin Beifang, and indeed Republic City, says you're wrong.

    Yeah, Fire Lord Ozai also tried to keep the Avatar imprisoned. Didn't work out so well for him.

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    Lin Beifang, and indeed Republic City, says you're wrong.

    Yeah, Fire Lord Ozai also tried to keep the Avatar imprisoned. Didn't work out so well for him.

    Worked out well enough for Beifang. Sozin did pretty well killing him off too. But that ignores the point: The Avatar is not free to ignore the rules because they're the Avatar. They get to either because a society allows it or they force their way. Not always successfully.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    Lin Beifang, and indeed Republic City, says you're wrong.

    Yeah, Fire Lord Ozai also tried to keep the Avatar imprisoned. Didn't work out so well for him.

    Unless the Avatar chooses to stay imprisoned. Given enough cause to redeem themselves it's possible for the Avatar to abide by the sentence from a legitimate authority.

  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    zerg rush wrote: »
    Pailryder wrote: »
    sokka and suki - ?
    zuko and mai- ?

    Last I heard of the comic, that may not be.
    the writer of it is a zuko -suki shipper

    I heard it was worse
    Zutaran

    (Which, if you ask me, is like asking someone who thinks Batman should kill people to write a Batman comic)

    Batman killing people isn't entirely out of character for him. It's just that version is no longer associated with the modern Batman.

    Outside of using guns killing is the most out of character action Batman could take.

    There is one exception to both. Shooting Darksied.

    Quire.jpg
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    zerg rush wrote: »
    Pailryder wrote: »
    sokka and suki - ?
    zuko and mai- ?

    Last I heard of the comic, that may not be.
    the writer of it is a zuko -suki shipper

    I heard it was worse
    Zutaran

    (Which, if you ask me, is like asking someone who thinks Batman should kill people to write a Batman comic)

    Batman killing people isn't entirely out of character for him. It's just that version is no longer associated with the modern Batman.

    Outside of using guns killing is the most out of character action Batman could take.

    There is one exception to both. Shooting Darksied.

    I meant the original Bob Kane throwing criminals off roofs Batman. That said, you're correct concerning the current Batman.

    Harry Dresden on
  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    zerg rush wrote: »
    Pailryder wrote: »
    sokka and suki - ?
    zuko and mai- ?

    Last I heard of the comic, that may not be.
    the writer of it is a zuko -suki shipper

    I heard it was worse
    Zutaran

    (Which, if you ask me, is like asking someone who thinks Batman should kill people to write a Batman comic)

    Batman killing people isn't entirely out of character for him. It's just that version is no longer associated with the modern Batman.

    Outside of using guns killing is the most out of character action Batman could take.

    There is one exception to both. Shooting Darksied.

    I meant the original Bob Kane throwing criminals off roofs Batman. That said, you're correct concerning the current Batman.

    You said that "Batman* killing people isn't entirely out of character for him.

    This is out of character. Since that point the character has been better defined and Batman doesn't kill.

    Those early stories are simply out of character.

    *Presumably the nebulous generic batman in which all version and iterations must be considered.

    Quire.jpg
  • BagginsesBagginses __BANNED USERS regular
    More to the point, Yakkon was in the process of killing the Avatar during a violent flight from custody. We have no reason to believe that Amon knew Tarlokk was a fugitive.

  • MushroomStickMushroomStick Registered User regular
    Bagginses wrote: »
    More to the point, Yakkon was in the process of killing the Avatar during a violent flight from custody. We have no reason to believe that Amon knew Tarlokk was a fugitive.

    He probably figured out that something was up around when all his chi blockers started getting blood bent.

  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    Bagginses wrote: »
    More to the point, Yakkon was in the process of killing the Avatar during a violent flight from custody. We have no reason to believe that Amon knew Tarlokk was a fugitive.

    I thought Amon was there because Tarlokk framed the Equalists. Liar liar, pants on fire, etc.

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Bagginses wrote: »
    More to the point, Yakkon was in the process of killing the Avatar during a violent flight from custody. We have no reason to believe that Amon knew Tarlokk was a fugitive.

    He knew he'd kidnapped the Avatar. And, as was mentioned, probably knew something was up when Tarrlok started blood bending people, in particular he was in the process of trying to take out Amon. So... no?

    Quid on
  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Bagginses wrote: »
    More to the point, Yakkon was in the process of killing the Avatar during a violent flight from custody. We have no reason to believe that Amon knew Tarlokk was a fugitive.

    I thought Amon was there because Tarlokk framed the Equalists. Liar liar, pants on fire, etc.

    This was my impression as well. Amon showed up after the rest of Team Avatar busted into the underground to find Korra, and after Tarlok had been exposed as a liar and a fugitive.

  • Andy JoeAndy Joe We claim the land for the highlord! The AdirondacksRegistered User regular
    If the only things Amon had done up until now had been debending Zolt and Tarrlok he'd be a goddamn hero. It's doing it to innocent benders and fucking police officers that's really objectionable.

    XBL: Stealth Crane PSN: ajpet12 3DS: 1160-9999-5810 NNID: StealthCrane Pokemon Scarlet Name: Carmen
  • BagginsesBagginses __BANNED USERS regular
    Andy Joe wrote: »
    If the only things Amon had done up until now had been debending Zolt and Tarrlok he'd be a goddamn hero. It's doing it to innocent benders and fucking police officers that's really objectionable.

    The police officers clashing with an oppressive regime. Remember how we felt about the police during the Green Revolution a couple years back.

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Andy Joe wrote: »
    If the only things Amon had done up until now had been debending Zolt and Tarrlok he'd be a goddamn hero. It's doing it to innocent benders and fucking police officers that's really objectionable.

    I agree to a point. Except people were bemoaning his taking bending from Zolt, equating what he did to crippling a person. And people are now trying to say what he did with Tarrlok is somehow different than what Aang did to Yakone. Essentially people are trying to make the show a matter of black and white, which is a shame.

    And yes, let's not forget those poor police. The ones who attacked Equalist chi blocking schools before it was even illegal and the second Lin was gone had no compunction attacking and arresting nonbenders demanding fairness. I am sure plenty of them are perfectly nice people who don't deserve what happened to them, but given a revolution is taking place the Equalists don't really have the option of picking out the good from the bad.

  • ElitistbElitistb Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    There is a slight difference, in that bloodbending is basically body horror. Generally I would view it in a similar light to nerve stapling, only temporary. Technically spirit bending IS nerve stapling, and should be reserved only for the most horrific offenders.

    Elitistb on
    steam_sig.png
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Elitistb wrote: »
    There is a slight difference, in that bloodbending is basically body horror. Generally I would view it in a similar light to nerve stapling, only temporary. Technically spirit bending IS nerve stapling, and should be reserved only for the most horrific offenders.

    No, it technically is not.

  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    I like what Quid says. But I worry that Amon, like many revolutionaries reacting to actual oppression in their societies, might not have thought through the long-term planning or consequences of his revolution.

  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    Yep! Say bye bye to cheap electricity and construction, weak ass normals.

    Seriously though, non-benders rely plenty on bending, probably without realizing it.

    Oh brilliant
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    And medical treatment, and if the airbenders ever get off their asses, affordable airfare.

  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    Yep! Say bye bye to cheap electricity and construction, weak ass normals.

    Seriously though, non-benders rely plenty on bending, probably without realizing it.

    That's why Lex Luthor hates Superman so much.

  • CadeCade Eppur si muove.Registered User regular
    I'm with the Avatar!

    But don't tell Amon, I don't want my bending taken away.

    I believe Quid might be an informant of his...

  • BagginsesBagginses __BANNED USERS regular
    Qingu wrote: »
    I like what Quid says. But I worry that Amon, like many revolutionaries reacting to actual oppression in their societies, might not have thought through the long-term planning or consequences of his revolution.

    Eh, in a lot of those case there was an intentional campaign by the colonial powers to tear the newly independent nations apart, the Congo being among the worst the worst examples (Belgium funded the creation of at least one separatist movement that's still going and abducted the president). In other cases, the infrastructure was built to rely on regular shipment from the colonizing power to ensure a market and ensure continued dependance.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    zerg rush wrote: »
    Pailryder wrote: »
    sokka and suki - ?
    zuko and mai- ?

    Last I heard of the comic, that may not be.
    the writer of it is a zuko -suki shipper

    I heard it was worse
    Zutaran

    (Which, if you ask me, is like asking someone who thinks Batman should kill people to write a Batman comic)

    Batman killing people isn't entirely out of character for him. It's just that version is no longer associated with the modern Batman.

    Outside of using guns killing is the most out of character action Batman could take.

    There is one exception to both. Shooting Darksied.

    I meant the original Bob Kane throwing criminals off roofs Batman. That said, you're correct concerning the current Batman.

    You said that "Batman* killing people isn't entirely out of character for him.

    This is out of character. Since that point the character has been better defined and Batman doesn't kill.

    Those early stories are simply out of character.

    *Presumably the nebulous generic batman in which all version and iterations must be considered.

    You're right, I concede. :mrgreen:
    Andy Joe wrote: »
    If the only things Amon had done up until now had been debending Zolt and Tarrlok he'd be a goddamn hero. It's doing it to innocent benders and fucking police officers that's really objectionable.

    It was never going to stop with Tarrlok & Zolt. Amon needed to rely on debending criminals to sell the idea then slowly ramp up his objections until he got to the "all benders are bad" stage.
    Quid wrote: »
    Andy Joe wrote: »
    If the only things Amon had done up until now had been debending Zolt and Tarrlok he'd be a goddamn hero. It's doing it to innocent benders and fucking police officers that's really objectionable.

    I agree to a point. Except people were bemoaning his taking bending from Zolt, equating what he did to crippling a person. And people are now trying to say what he did with Tarrlok is somehow different than what Aang did to Yakone. Essentially people are trying to make the show a matter of black and white, which is a shame.

    And yes, let's not forget those poor police. The ones who attacked Equalist chi blocking schools before it was even illegal and the second Lin was gone had no compunction attacking and arresting nonbenders demanding fairness. I am sure plenty of them are perfectly nice people who don't deserve what happened to them, but given a revolution is taking place the Equalists don't really have the option of picking out the good from the bad.

    That was Tarrlok's task force, not the police.

  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    Bagginses wrote: »
    Eh, in a lot of those case there was an intentional campaign by the colonial powers to tear the newly independent nations apart, the Congo being among the worst the worst examples (Belgium funded the creation of at least one separatist movement that's still going and abducted the president). In other cases, the infrastructure was built to rely on regular shipment from the colonizing power to ensure a market and ensure continued dependance.
    Er ... I was thinking more of Lenin. And, perhaps more contemporary, Occupy Wall Street.

  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    Andy Joe wrote: »
    If the only things Amon had done up until now had been debending Zolt and Tarrlok he'd be a goddamn hero. It's doing it to innocent benders and fucking police officers that's really objectionable.

    I agree to a point. Except people were bemoaning his taking bending from Zolt, equating what he did to crippling a person. And people are now trying to say what he did with Tarrlok is somehow different than what Aang did to Yakone. Essentially people are trying to make the show a matter of black and white, which is a shame.

    And yes, let's not forget those poor police. The ones who attacked Equalist chi blocking schools before it was even illegal and the second Lin was gone had no compunction attacking and arresting nonbenders demanding fairness. I am sure plenty of them are perfectly nice people who don't deserve what happened to them, but given a revolution is taking place the Equalists don't really have the option of picking out the good from the bad.

    The difference to most people lies with intent. Spirit bending is definitely something that's morally ambiguous in every instance, but what is required for Aang to take someones bending away? We know of two people that both provided a clear and present danger to everyone and proved themselves unable to be constrained by any conventional means. Debending or death. What's required for Amon to take someones bending away? Be a bender.

    If your movement doesn't allow you to differentiate between actual wrongdoers and people who've done nothing wrong, you might want to rethink the position of your movement.

  • BagginsesBagginses __BANNED USERS regular
    Qingu wrote: »
    Bagginses wrote: »
    Eh, in a lot of those case there was an intentional campaign by the colonial powers to tear the newly independent nations apart, the Congo being among the worst the worst examples (Belgium funded the creation of at least one separatist movement that's still going and abducted the president). In other cases, the infrastructure was built to rely on regular shipment from the colonizing power to ensure a market and ensure continued dependance.
    Er ... I was thinking more of Lenin. And, perhaps more contemporary, Occupy Wall Street.

    I guess I was thinking more about Cuba. The Batistas went Galt in the worst possible way.

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Qingu wrote: »
    I like what Quid says. But I worry that Amon, like many revolutionaries reacting to actual oppression in their societies, might not have thought through the long-term planning or consequences of his revolution.

    Oh I have no doubt Amon's an evil dick at worst and horribly, horribly misguided at best. I just take issue with people trying to rationalize something the good guy does as right but wrong when anyone else does it.
    Javen wrote: »
    The difference to most people lies with intent. Spirit bending is definitely something that's morally ambiguous in every instance, but what is required for Aang to take someones bending away? We know of two people that both provided a clear and present danger to everyone and proved themselves unable to be constrained by any conventional means. Debending or death. What's required for Amon to take someones bending away? Be a bender.

    If your movement doesn't allow you to differentiate between actual wrongdoers and people who've done nothing wrong, you might want to rethink the position of your movement.

    I agree he goes too far. But people, yourself included, are literally trying to make it out as if somehow their situations are different with their respective blood benders. They aren't. Amon didn't do anything Aang wouldn't have done in that case as was clearly demonstrated for us.
    That was Tarrlok's task force, not the police.

    His task force is composed of police. They're wearing the same metal uniforms with badges.

  • silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    We jumped the gun a bit! Oh well, hello new thread.

    So I guess we're officially in endgame for this season? No more side trips, just final conflict resolution.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Quid wrote: »
    I agree he goes too far. But people, yourself included, are literally trying to make it out as if somehow their situations are different with their respective blood benders. They aren't. Amon didn't do anything Aang wouldn't have done in that case as was clearly demonstrated for us.
    Aang acted against a known criminal who was found guilty by the established government and only debended Yakon as a last resort since he almost died in their fight. Debending is Amon's first & only resort and his actions aren't agreed with by the government.
    His task force is composed of police. They're wearing the same metal uniforms with badges.

    The group existed outside of the police force, though. They answered to Tarrlok, not Bei Fong.

    Harry Dresden on
  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    We jumped the gun a bit! Oh well, hello new thread.

    So I guess we're officially in endgame for this season? No more side trips, just final conflict resolution.

    We have 3 episodes left though!

    Also the finale is called Endgame, officially the best season finale episode title possible.

    Oh brilliant
  • silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    We jumped the gun a bit! Oh well, hello new thread.

    So I guess we're officially in endgame for this season? No more side trips, just final conflict resolution.

    We have 3 episodes left though!

    Also the finale is called Endgame, officially the best season finale episode title possible.

    No lies, I did not know the episode was entitled "Endgame" before you said so. I just like calling finales of this sort "endgame."

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    I agree he goes too far. But people, yourself included, are literally trying to make it out as if somehow their situations are different with their respective blood benders. They aren't. Amon didn't do anything Aang wouldn't have done in that case as was clearly demonstrated for us.
    Aang acted against a known criminal who was found guilty by the established government and only debended Yakon as a last resort since he almost died in their fight. Debending is Amon's first & only resort and his actions aren't agreed with by the government.
    Yakone being found guilty doesn't make Aang's act any less of a vigilante than Amon's. Aang decided the punishment and so did Amon. They both decided the punishment outside of the law. Something that upset people a great deal after The Revelation.
    His task force is composed of police. They're wearing the same metal uniforms with badges.

    The group existed outside of the police force, though. They answered to Tarrlok, not Bei Fong.

    They answered to Tarrlok because they were put on his task force. Reassigning them doesn't make them not police.

  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    His task force is composed of police. They're wearing the same metal uniforms with badges.

    The group existed outside of the police force, though. They answered to Tarrlok, not Bei Fong.

    They answered to Tarrlok because they were put on his task force. Reassigning them doesn't make them not police.

    the task force that korra was part of were not police officers that i recall, i think were getting the different "task forces" confused. There's the original water bending/korra TF and the post-beifong-stepdown TF.

    Also, i completely agree with Quid. I'm not sure how anyone can say Aang had the law on his side, all he had was his duty to keep the balance. In the current show, you could put that Amon is trying to keep the balance as well, until he gets what he wants and stops ALL benders.

    Insert appropriate name into sentence: (Aang/Amon) stopped a powerhungry bloodbender from doing terrible things.

    Pailryder on
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    In any case, Aang certainly did not have the law on his side for much of anything he did in TLA. He was in open rebellion against the Fire Nation and its rightful colonial holdings. He was also quite treasonous towards the government of the Earth Kingdom.

  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Qingu wrote: »
    In any case, Aang certainly did not have the law on his side for much of anything he did in TLA. He was in open rebellion against the Fire Nation and its rightful colonial holdings. He was also quite treasonous towards the government of the Earth Kingdom.

    He was not a subject of the Earth Kingdom, so it wasn't treason so much as it was espionage et al.

    History is written by the victors and all that, though TLA was definitely portrayed as a just cause.

This discussion has been closed.