Neil being aggressive toward the ron paul supporter had nothing to do with her being a woman, it's because he was putting up with her bullshit all evening and finally snapped
Im pretty sure most people have done that before, probably to someone close to them even (because you cant think of a polite way to tell them you think they're being idiotic so you keep your mouth shut until you cant take anymore and it comes out all at once)
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scherbchenAsgard (it is dead)Registered Userregular
well isn't the argument he was only being nice because she was attractive and hammered ("maybe more food isn't necessary" wink wink) and only snapped because suffering from that was not worth getting maybe-laid?
totally different kind of sexism but really not for the better.
in his defense: his overreaction was imho due to the invasion of privacy of his friend, crazy-repub chick on his right and too much drunk-o chick on his left. the RP liberalism was just the camel that broke the straw's neck. pretty sure I got that phrase right.
What did Charlie yell out during the last part of the episode. We rewound it twice and still couldn't clearly make out if it was just Fuck really emphasized or if it was two or more words.
i feel like i've seen will and mackenzie have that exact scene from last night like... literally a dozen times now
maybe that's hyperbole but it feels like the jim-maggie thing started its denouement at the end of last season... and as offputting as some of their triangle stuff was, at least it was mobile and active and they dated others and stuff
mackenzie and will see other people but then every 2-3 episodes for the entire run of the show they have a moment about their relationship
Let's keep in mind that I'm not the one saying that I think the reason the writers made him rude to her was that she was a woman. I was merely replying to somebody saying a feminist basically said that, and saying that I could see how somebody with a feminist leaning could perceive that scene as the writers having a man treat a woman like what she was saying was dumb because she's a woman.
I could totally see how somebody with a feminist leaning could perceive that as well.
They'd be stupid as fuck, though.
I've no idea what the writers intentions were, but if you think the average skinny indian dude would talk the way he did to the Ron Paul girl to a 200 pound man given the same situation, I think you're being a little naive. You can take from that what you will, but it is what it is.
And again, in that context, I think that could absolutely happen. Hell, I know smallish dudes who say dumber shit in much more "dangerous" situations. It's dinner at a fancy restaurant with journalist types, and Neal's got backup (Jim) there. Yes, he'd probably feel comfortable calling another dude an idiot, provided that dude wasn't specifically large and historically violent (which is to say if he was just a normal dude, even one my size, which happens to be about two hundred pounds).
Given that Neil probably had to deal with Ron Paul spam all the damn time on the ACN page, it was probably more an example of "Mod-splaining" than anything else.
Then again, ACN's website prevents sock puppet accounts. So maybe not.
Given that Neil probably had to deal with Ron Paul spam all the damn time on the ACN page, it was probably more an example of "Mod-splaining" than anything else.
Then again, ACN's website prevents sock puppet accounts. So maybe not.
well isn't the argument he was only being nice because she was attractive and hammered ("maybe more food isn't necessary" wink wink) and only snapped because suffering from that was not worth getting maybe-laid?
totally different kind of sexism but really not for the better.
He was roped into the dinner, he had ZERO interest in getting with the girl. Remember, Jim's girlfriend had her come along because she was too drunk to be safe and asked Jim to find somebody to 'double date' with them so it wouldn't be awkward?
As to the new episode, it's weird how much I like Don after really hating him a lot last season. His "shock/horror/rage" eyes upon hearing what Jim did were the best. I also liked his and Maggie's aggressive back and forth, both giving as good as they got. Not sure why Mac is this "terrible person", another mysterious meme opinion that has no standing within the plot of the show perhaps?
well isn't the argument he was only being nice because she was attractive and hammered ("maybe more food isn't necessary" wink wink) and only snapped because suffering from that was not worth getting maybe-laid?
totally different kind of sexism but really not for the better.
As to the new episode, it's weird how much I like Don after really hating him a lot last season. His "shock/horror/rage" eyes upon hearing what Jim did were the best. I also liked his and Maggie's aggressive back and forth, both giving as good as they got. Not sure why Mac is this "terrible person", another mysterious meme opinion that has no standing within the plot of the show perhaps?
Don is definitely in the running for my favorite character this season along with Charlie and Sloan, her running argument with the other anchor (i forget his name, the one Don produces) had me laughing so hard.
Mac is a terrible person because she cheated on Will for what was apparently an extended period of time despite him being committed to her. He gets a lot of flack for not forgiving her, but personally I think he is entitled to feel how he want to feel about her. It doesn't make him bad person for still holding it against her, it's not like he goes out of his way to make her miserable; she's the one that inserted herself back into his life, not the other way around.*
*sorry for the mini rant, but I read an episode review earlier that went off on how on how they can't show Will being mean to Mac and then turnaround and expect an audience to take him seriously when he says that he was a good boyfriend, and all that that showed was that Will's an asshole, and not the likable kind.*
Don is definitely in the running for my favorite character this season along with Charlie and Sloan, her running argument with the other anchor (i forget his name, the one Don produces) had me laughing so hard.
Mac is a terrible person because she cheated on Will for what was apparently an extended period of time despite him being committed to her. He gets a lot of flack for not forgiving her, but personally I think he is entitled to feel how he want to feel about her. It doesn't make him bad person for still holding it against her, it's not like he goes out of his way to make her miserable; she's the one that inserted herself back into his life, not the other way around.*
*sorry for the mini rant, but I read an episode review earlier that went off on how on how they can't show Will being mean to Mac and then turnaround and expect an audience to take him seriously when he says that he was a good boyfriend, and all that that showed was that Will's an asshole, and not the likable kind.*
We've known since one of the first episodes that this was the reason Mac and Will broke up. She emailed it to the entire company accidentally. I don't see how that supports the idea that Mac is becoming worse in some way.
Don is definitely in the running for my favorite character this season along with Charlie and Sloan, her running argument with the other anchor (i forget his name, the one Don produces) had me laughing so hard.
Mac is a terrible person because she cheated on Will for what was apparently an extended period of time despite him being committed to her. He gets a lot of flack for not forgiving her, but personally I think he is entitled to feel how he want to feel about her. It doesn't make him bad person for still holding it against her, it's not like he goes out of his way to make her miserable; she's the one that inserted herself back into his life, not the other way around.*
*sorry for the mini rant, but I read an episode review earlier that went off on how on how they can't show Will being mean to Mac and then turnaround and expect an audience to take him seriously when he says that he was a good boyfriend, and all that that showed was that Will's an asshole, and not the likable kind.*
We've known since one of the first episodes that this was the reason Mac and Will broke up. She emailed it to the entire company accidentally. I don't see how that supports the idea that Mac is becoming worse in some way.
Never said she was becoming worse, just that Will is justified for whatever resentment he might still hold towards her. And unless I missed it, this was the first time that they presented her cheating as something that was ongoing and not just a one time thing (which I, at least, had assumed it to have been).
Not sure why Mac is this "terrible person", another mysterious meme opinion that has no standing within the plot of the show perhaps?
Assuming that Will is keeping her around for his image, and then telling him so, is an incredibly dick move. Like, one of the most insulting things she could have said.
Assuming that Will is keeping her around for his image, and then telling him so, is an incredibly dick move. Like, one of the most insulting things she could have said.
Also possibly something she said on purpose without meaning it because she's desperate to get fired. Which makes her a complex character (like Will!), not some terrible person. I mean, the most terrible thing that someone did this season (besides the guy splicing the footage obviously) was Will accepting Genoa without doing his job as part of the third Red Team. It seemed like he heard the same story Charlie did and then just accepted the rest at face value.
Also possibly something she said on purpose without meaning it because she's desperate to get fired. Which makes her a complex character (like Will!), not some terrible person. I mean, the most terrible thing that someone did this season (besides the guy splicing the footage obviously) was Will accepting Genoa without doing his job as part of the third Red Team. It seemed like he heard the same story Charlie did and then just accepted the rest at face value.
I don't think you can really fault Will for accepting it. It's gone through a dozen people vetting it and then in info is presented to him, a package of information that has already convinced a large group of people he trusts. On top of that he already had an outside source that told him abou the event, a source he clearly had a lot of trust in.
On the other hand, Mac annoys me. Everyone complains Will needs to get over her cheating, but she just keeps taking Will's crap. Why can't she get over it? She screwed up. He doesn't want to be with her now. Move on and stop complaining about how Will needs to get over it. It seems so turned around and stupid to me that the whole storyline is about how Will is wrong for not forgiving her for cheating on him. Can you imagine a storyline where a girl was supposed to forgive a guy for cheating on her? Where everyone was telling her to get over it? That would never happen. But it's like every rom-com cliche where no matter who has done what, the man eventually has to apologize to the woman. Even in Greys Anatomy where the wife cheated on him with his best friend, and yet he had to apologize because he was to blame. Ridiculous.
I thought it was very laid back honestly. almost low key. I wouldn't have loved it except every thing with Don was perfect, and the last scene with all the principal actors was great.
I don't think you can really fault Will for accepting it. It's gone through a dozen people vetting it and then in info is presented to him, a package of information that has already convinced a large group of people he trusts. On top of that he already had an outside source that told him abou the event, a source he clearly had a lot of trust in.
On the other hand, Mac annoys me. Everyone complains Will needs to get over her cheating, but she just keeps taking Will's crap. Why can't she get over it? She screwed up. He doesn't want to be with her now. Move on and stop complaining about how Will needs to get over it. It seems so turned around and stupid to me that the whole storyline is about how Will is wrong for not forgiving her for cheating on him. Can you imagine a storyline where a girl was supposed to forgive a guy for cheating on her? Where everyone was telling her to get over it? That would never happen. But it's like every rom-com cliche where no matter who has done what, the man eventually has to apologize to the woman. Even in Greys Anatomy where the wife cheated on him with his best friend, and yet he had to apologize because he was to blame. Ridiculous.
I can fault him because just accepting the word of his friends is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the point of a Red Team and he knows that. If that was his thinking, he could NEVER be on the Red Team and they'd have to get the DC people to do it, since apparently the DC Team hates them now. And while I'd agree that the source was a reason to think the story was true, they're supposed to have more than one good source (and he didn't vet the others as far as the show told us). Damningly, he doesn't say, "I think the story is true, therefore we should run it," he says "I trust Mac and Charlie."
*Some season finale spoilers, stop here if you haven't seen it yet.*
Does everyone complain that Will needs to get over the cheating? Maybe this is widespread, I just have never heard it. But yes, Will IS wrong, that was stated straight up in the season finale. Not because his feelings were like... incorrect, it's fine if he couldn't forgive her. The truth however, is that he had decided to punish her, while NEVER stopping loving her. So as far as things to do goes... that is a stupid one. And he discovered that at the end here. So what I'd say to you is, it's not about winning arguments, it's about "do you want the relationship to continue? If so, what would you be willing to do?" Will obviously wanted to be with her, he was bent over backwards the entire show obsessed with her.
More specific parts here: 'can you imagine a storyline where a girl was supposed to forgive a guy for cheating on her'? Yeah, I'm sure it has happened plenty in romantic dramas. Game of Thrones (Ned x Cat) comes to mind for example. And don't talk about 'true parentage', that's all speculation for now, the storyline as is fit that criteria verbatim. See also "The Last Kiss", an entire movie on the subject.
Honestly, you come off as mad at women in fiction in general, it's a bit strange. You're basically like "How Dare Those Rom Com Women Always Win The Argument In The End!" when if anything you should be mad at writing cliches who produce these scenarios. Not that Will and Mac is completely cliche, I think there's an appreciable level of depth worked in there.
So can we be done with all the Will/Mac drama now and just make Don the main character with Neal being his well meaning but over eager sidekick.
I really liked this episode, this show is so much better when it doesn't cement itself in melodramatic bs. The low points of the episode for me were the Will/Mac conversations and the whole Maggie storyline that won't go away. The more lighthearted stuff is where this show shines for me, the small things like Mac wanting her wiki page fixed and all of the things Neal had to go through just to fix it, as well as the running gag of Sloan not being able to finish a sentence for practically the entire episode.
The one dramatic storyline that I liked was the one surrounding Don getting sued if for no other reason than it gave us that great scene with him and the lawyer in the office.
Felt very blah to me. It's like Sorkin spent all season trying to build up drama and decided screw it and just had everyone give a big group hug.
If Sorkin needed to get out of it quick I'm happier for it. I like this show best when it's brutally criticizing media bullshit. Basically more of it should be Don's deconstruction of all the Casey Anthony stuff, but applied to other things.
I don't know if I missed it before or not, but this episode was the first one where I remember them specifically saying that Mac's cheating with her ex was when she and Will first started dating. For some reason I had it in my head that it was at the end of their relationship, which would've made it worse.
Still sleeping with your ex who you're hung up on while you're newly dating somebody and you don't really know you'll ever get serious with them is a whole lot different than betraying them after you're invested. It's still not good, but it's far different.
Honestly, you come off as mad at women in fiction in general, it's a bit strange. You're basically like "How Dare Those Rom Com Women Always Win The Argument In The End!" when if anything you should be mad at writing cliches who produce these scenarios. Not that Will and Mac is completely cliche, I think there's an appreciable level of depth worked in there.
I'm not mad at women in fiction. Women in fiction don't really exist. Why would I ever get mad at a fictional anything? And complaining about men apologizing to women at the end of every rom-com or having to do the big run to her and give a big speech before saying I love you (or asking her to marry you as Will did last night) IS complaining about writing cliches.
It should go without saying I pretty much disagree with everything else you said too, but whatever.
I like how they set up the "what if some of the main actors were to leave" scenario. They could easily write out Will and Mac in the last season and have Don take over the news show and struggle with Elliot not being as popular as Will in ratings and what that means to everyone. (I love shows about tv shows and that is an interesting storyline to me)
They resolved to resolve it! That's like the same thing!
Like how they ended last season with some awesome blackmail that would enable them to take no prisoners and this season the blackmail magically turned into nothing.
The Newsroom is like the best worst show I watch. At times, the banter between characters is just so well written that it makes it worth it to watch the show, but I have to just try to not even think about the actual storylines they're writing about.
Started watching The West Wing as per your tips, and it's the same good conversation stuff but better storyline with fewer ridiculous stuff thrown in. Loving it so far.
Are all seasons good or does the quality plummet after a while?
The Newsroom is like the best worst show I watch. At times, the banter between characters is just so well written that it makes it worth it to watch the show, but I have to just try to not even think about the actual storylines they're writing about.
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Im pretty sure most people have done that before, probably to someone close to them even (because you cant think of a polite way to tell them you think they're being idiotic so you keep your mouth shut until you cant take anymore and it comes out all at once)
totally different kind of sexism but really not for the better.
in his defense: his overreaction was imho due to the invasion of privacy of his friend, crazy-repub chick on his right and too much drunk-o chick on his left. the RP liberalism was just the camel that broke the straw's neck. pretty sure I got that phrase right.
maybe that's hyperbole but it feels like the jim-maggie thing started its denouement at the end of last season... and as offputting as some of their triangle stuff was, at least it was mobile and active and they dated others and stuff
mackenzie and will see other people but then every 2-3 episodes for the entire run of the show they have a moment about their relationship
it's starting to become a blur
I could totally see how somebody with a feminist leaning could perceive that as well.
They'd be stupid as fuck, though.
And again, in that context, I think that could absolutely happen. Hell, I know smallish dudes who say dumber shit in much more "dangerous" situations. It's dinner at a fancy restaurant with journalist types, and Neal's got backup (Jim) there. Yes, he'd probably feel comfortable calling another dude an idiot, provided that dude wasn't specifically large and historically violent (which is to say if he was just a normal dude, even one my size, which happens to be about two hundred pounds).
Then again, ACN's website prevents sock puppet accounts. So maybe not.
Since when has that stopped, apparently, anyone?
He was roped into the dinner, he had ZERO interest in getting with the girl. Remember, Jim's girlfriend had her come along because she was too drunk to be safe and asked Jim to find somebody to 'double date' with them so it wouldn't be awkward?
As to the new episode, it's weird how much I like Don after really hating him a lot last season. His "shock/horror/rage" eyes upon hearing what Jim did were the best. I also liked his and Maggie's aggressive back and forth, both giving as good as they got. Not sure why Mac is this "terrible person", another mysterious meme opinion that has no standing within the plot of the show perhaps?
Don is definitely in the running for my favorite character this season along with Charlie and Sloan, her running argument with the other anchor (i forget his name, the one Don produces) had me laughing so hard.
Mac is a terrible person because she cheated on Will for what was apparently an extended period of time despite him being committed to her. He gets a lot of flack for not forgiving her, but personally I think he is entitled to feel how he want to feel about her. It doesn't make him bad person for still holding it against her, it's not like he goes out of his way to make her miserable; she's the one that inserted herself back into his life, not the other way around.*
*sorry for the mini rant, but I read an episode review earlier that went off on how on how they can't show Will being mean to Mac and then turnaround and expect an audience to take him seriously when he says that he was a good boyfriend, and all that that showed was that Will's an asshole, and not the likable kind.*
We've known since one of the first episodes that this was the reason Mac and Will broke up. She emailed it to the entire company accidentally. I don't see how that supports the idea that Mac is becoming worse in some way.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Never said she was becoming worse, just that Will is justified for whatever resentment he might still hold towards her. And unless I missed it, this was the first time that they presented her cheating as something that was ongoing and not just a one time thing (which I, at least, had assumed it to have been).
Assuming that Will is keeping her around for his image, and then telling him so, is an incredibly dick move. Like, one of the most insulting things she could have said.
Also possibly something she said on purpose without meaning it because she's desperate to get fired. Which makes her a complex character (like Will!), not some terrible person. I mean, the most terrible thing that someone did this season (besides the guy splicing the footage obviously) was Will accepting Genoa without doing his job as part of the third Red Team. It seemed like he heard the same story Charlie did and then just accepted the rest at face value.
I don't think you can really fault Will for accepting it. It's gone through a dozen people vetting it and then in info is presented to him, a package of information that has already convinced a large group of people he trusts. On top of that he already had an outside source that told him abou the event, a source he clearly had a lot of trust in.
On the other hand, Mac annoys me. Everyone complains Will needs to get over her cheating, but she just keeps taking Will's crap. Why can't she get over it? She screwed up. He doesn't want to be with her now. Move on and stop complaining about how Will needs to get over it. It seems so turned around and stupid to me that the whole storyline is about how Will is wrong for not forgiving her for cheating on him. Can you imagine a storyline where a girl was supposed to forgive a guy for cheating on her? Where everyone was telling her to get over it? That would never happen. But it's like every rom-com cliche where no matter who has done what, the man eventually has to apologize to the woman. Even in Greys Anatomy where the wife cheated on him with his best friend, and yet he had to apologize because he was to blame. Ridiculous.
Chaotic is how I would describe it.
It ended fine, though.
It was indeed the season finale.
because everything's so goddamn gloomy lately
I can fault him because just accepting the word of his friends is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the point of a Red Team and he knows that. If that was his thinking, he could NEVER be on the Red Team and they'd have to get the DC people to do it, since apparently the DC Team hates them now. And while I'd agree that the source was a reason to think the story was true, they're supposed to have more than one good source (and he didn't vet the others as far as the show told us). Damningly, he doesn't say, "I think the story is true, therefore we should run it," he says "I trust Mac and Charlie."
*Some season finale spoilers, stop here if you haven't seen it yet.*
Does everyone complain that Will needs to get over the cheating? Maybe this is widespread, I just have never heard it. But yes, Will IS wrong, that was stated straight up in the season finale. Not because his feelings were like... incorrect, it's fine if he couldn't forgive her. The truth however, is that he had decided to punish her, while NEVER stopping loving her. So as far as things to do goes... that is a stupid one. And he discovered that at the end here. So what I'd say to you is, it's not about winning arguments, it's about "do you want the relationship to continue? If so, what would you be willing to do?" Will obviously wanted to be with her, he was bent over backwards the entire show obsessed with her.
More specific parts here: 'can you imagine a storyline where a girl was supposed to forgive a guy for cheating on her'? Yeah, I'm sure it has happened plenty in romantic dramas. Game of Thrones (Ned x Cat) comes to mind for example. And don't talk about 'true parentage', that's all speculation for now, the storyline as is fit that criteria verbatim. See also "The Last Kiss", an entire movie on the subject.
Honestly, you come off as mad at women in fiction in general, it's a bit strange. You're basically like "How Dare Those Rom Com Women Always Win The Argument In The End!" when if anything you should be mad at writing cliches who produce these scenarios. Not that Will and Mac is completely cliche, I think there's an appreciable level of depth worked in there.
I really liked this episode, this show is so much better when it doesn't cement itself in melodramatic bs. The low points of the episode for me were the Will/Mac conversations and the whole Maggie storyline that won't go away. The more lighthearted stuff is where this show shines for me, the small things like Mac wanting her wiki page fixed and all of the things Neal had to go through just to fix it, as well as the running gag of Sloan not being able to finish a sentence for practically the entire episode.
The one dramatic storyline that I liked was the one surrounding Don getting sued if for no other reason than it gave us that great scene with him and the lawyer in the office.
If Sorkin needed to get out of it quick I'm happier for it. I like this show best when it's brutally criticizing media bullshit. Basically more of it should be Don's deconstruction of all the Casey Anthony stuff, but applied to other things.
and you guys wouldnt have the cute "small" stuff without the big overarching "boring" stuff!
Still sleeping with your ex who you're hung up on while you're newly dating somebody and you don't really know you'll ever get serious with them is a whole lot different than betraying them after you're invested. It's still not good, but it's far different.
I'm not mad at women in fiction. Women in fiction don't really exist. Why would I ever get mad at a fictional anything? And complaining about men apologizing to women at the end of every rom-com or having to do the big run to her and give a big speech before saying I love you (or asking her to marry you as Will did last night) IS complaining about writing cliches.
It should go without saying I pretty much disagree with everything else you said too, but whatever.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
How is this not the thread title?
Maggie's stuff is still pretty dumb, but I'll cut it some slack since it got us more Lisa which as far as Im concerned is always a plus.
Don was pretty awesome, and the stuff with Sloan was great.
Sam Waterston remains my favorite character though (with Don catching up, a super nice reversal of his terribleness in season 1).
I wish the season was longer, but whatever. At least we're getting a season 3.
How do you start the season in the middle of a lawsuit storyline, and then not resolve that lawsuit storyline by the time the season is over?
Like how they ended last season with some awesome blackmail that would enable them to take no prisoners and this season the blackmail magically turned into nothing.
Are all seasons good or does the quality plummet after a while?
It's all about Don at this point.