The fact it might get passed doesn't mean it deserves to, Shinto. That's a huge cop-out. You can't just magically wave away all the moral issues and the huge potential for abuse based on the fact that a majority of lawmakers already have.
I don't have to wave away anything. 80,000 people dying for lack of an organ is a greater evil than 80,000 people lossing an organ. .
Please read again, those people die because those organs are vital, that means that if you take those organs from prisoners they will die aswell, there might be a few exceptions, but nowhere near 80k.
Stop using irrelevant data
You have two kidneys. You only technically need the one. Unless you, like, have to go more than an hour between pitstops regularly. Among other actual health-complications.
so 80 000 people die from lack of kidneys each year?
It's less than a hundredth of a percent of the human population, so I'm willing to accept that number pretty easily.
This isn't compulsory, so I think this is really good.
That's the only criteria by which you judge? That it is or isn't compulsory?
Something like this could never be compulsory - there will never be a law requiring inmates to sign away their organs - so I find your statement a little odd.
Now come on guys, the government is clearly just correcting God's mistake by putting the good organs in good people, and letting the bad people suffer.
This isn't compulsory, so I think this is really good.
It reeks of false-choice to me. "Okay, you can give up an organ or get raped repeatedly for the next six months." No law exists in a vacuum.
I think prison rape is also bad, and is an issue that absolutely must be dealt with.
I think it's an issue that must be dealt with before I'll consider a law like this to actually be voluntary.
Hey, you pretty much hit the point I wanted to make right before I showed up. I don't necessarily have a huge problem with a voluntary program like this in the abstract (though at that point I should be able to sell my own kidneys for cash as well). But until we clean up our prison system such that we no longer use the threat of forcible sodomy as a deterrent to crime I'm not comfortable with this.
I mean, considering the risk of contracting HIV from prisoner rape you're basically telling them they have a choice between giving up an organ or risking death for six more months. Yeah, some choice.
This isn't compulsory, so I think this is really good.
It reeks of false-choice to me. "Okay, you can give up an organ or get raped repeatedly for the next six months." No law exists in a vacuum.
I think prison rape is also bad, and is an issue that absolutely must be dealt with.
I think it's an issue that must be dealt with before I'll consider a law like this to actually be voluntary.
That argument persuades me. I'll agree with you and mcdermott.
Damn, you guys got to this before I did Ah well, I'll also toss my hat in and point out that MrMister casually waved it aside during his rebuttal of the 2nd argument.
@Shinto: There are countries in this world (many European countries, for instance) that have opt-out programs. These aren't magical fairy dust solutions. They are policies adopted in other developed nations that solve a lot of these ethical problems quite nicely.
Not that such a thing would ever happen, but would you all feel the same way about a law mandating organ donation for convicts that die while in prison?
Not that such a thing would ever happen, but would you all feel the same way about a law mandating organ donation for convicts that die while in prison?
Like for all demographics, I think it should be opt-out. So yes, unless they specify that they don't wish to donate their organs or specific organs.
I guess most people wouldn't agree with me here, and I'm not saying this to flame or troll but:
I honestly beleive that some guy that stabs someone in the face does not deserve fair treatment as an equal human being. I wouldn't mind at all seeing criminals like murder just rot in a small cell all day long with some cheap, low-quality food as only nourishment. You're a murder or a rapist? You don't deserve to be treated fairly since you obviously don't care about the harm you inflict upon others.
Edit: and the solution to not getting raped in prison is: Don't be a fucking criminal.
I guess most people wouldn't agree with me here, and I'm not saying this to flame or troll but:
I honestly beleive that some guy that stabs someone in the face does not deserve fair treatment as an equal human being. I wouldn't mind at all seeing criminals like murder just rot in a small cell all day long with some cheap, low-quality food as only nourishment. You're a murder or a rapist? You don't deserve to be treated fairly since you obviously don't care about the harm you inflict upon others.
Edit: and the solution to not getting raped in prison is: Don't be a fucking criminal.
So you've missed all the recent headlines like "Rapist Vindicated After 10 Years in Prison by DNA Evidence," huh?
I liked the recent one where a guy's alibi was finally confirmed (he had claimed to be at a baseball game at the time) when they dug through tossed footage from Curb Your Enthusiasm. Apparently they had been filming at that game for an episode. There he was, plain as day. Spent several months in prison, I believe.
Innocent people go to prison, too. So howsabout we treat them all as human beings, at least as much as is possible while still keeping them in prison.
My point? After your absolutely fucktarded edit I sincerely hope you get convicted of a crime you did not commit and get raped daily. Idiot.
EDIT: Hell, you don't even have to get convicted. There's always the case of they guy who got picked up after a traffic stop because he shared the same name as a criminal. Raped in jail while waiting for it to get sorted out. I guess he deserved to get raped though...after all, he was probably speeding and had a Hispanic name.
I guess most people wouldn't agree with me here, and I'm not saying this to flame or troll but:
I honestly beleive that some guy that stabs someone in the face does not deserve fair treatment as an equal human being. I wouldn't mind at all seeing criminals like murder just rot in a small cell all day long with some cheap, low-quality food as only nourishment. You're a murder or a rapist? You don't deserve to be treated fairly since you obviously don't care about the harm you inflict upon others.
Most murderers do so in a fit of passion. The vast majority are not cold-blooded killers, despite what the media might make you think.
In any case, the penal system in the US is NOT a punitive one. It is a rehabilitative one. We're trying to (in theory though it doesn't really work that way in practice) help our criminals become functioning, law-abiding members of society.
You should examine your statements and think about how much you've dehumanized criminals. Then consider that maybe a relative or friend may become on someday. You don't know; no one ever believes that their brother or friend or sister or mother might do something illegal, like get busted for violating stupid 3 strike laws and have to do many, many years. Would you want them to be treated that way?
Let's say you get in a drunken fight in a fraternity and you accidentally push a guy down a flight of stairs. He dies. You plead guilty and get 15 years (give or take). You're not an inherently violent person; you didn't mean to kill them. It just........happened. How would you want to be treated?
Dostoevsky got it right: “The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons.”
I guess most people wouldn't agree with me here, and I'm not saying this to flame or troll but:
I honestly beleive that some guy that stabs someone in the face does not deserve fair treatment as an equal human being. I wouldn't mind at all seeing criminals like murder just rot in a small cell all day long with some cheap, low-quality food as only nourishment. You're a murder or a rapist? You don't deserve to be treated fairly since you obviously don't care about the harm you inflict upon others.
Edit: and the solution to not getting raped in prison is: Don't be a fucking criminal.
Don't you think it's a little unfair to group the people who had some weed on them while being too black for their own good with the rapists and murderers?
There's a degree to which I think you're right, but much like sex offenders being everyone from the 18 year old whose girlfriend's parents successfully nail him for statutory rape to the animals that fuck little boys in their basements, all criminals are not necessarily scum undeserving of a chance at a good life.
I guess most people wouldn't agree with me here, and I'm not saying this to flame or troll but:
I honestly beleive that some guy that stabs someone in the face does not deserve fair treatment as an equal human being. I wouldn't mind at all seeing criminals like murder just rot in a small cell all day long with some cheap, low-quality food as only nourishment. You're a murder or a rapist? You don't deserve to be treated fairly since you obviously don't care about the harm you inflict upon others.
Edit: and the solution to not getting raped in prison is: Don't be a fucking criminal.
So you've missed all the recent headlines like "Rapist Vindicated After 10 Years in Prison by DNA Evidence," huh?
I liked the recent one where a guy's alibi was finally confirmed (he had claimed to be at a baseball game at the time) when they dug through tossed footage from Curb Your Enthusiasm. Apparently they had been filming at that game for an episode. There he was, plain as day. Spent several months in prison, I believe.
Innocent people go to prison, too. So howsabout we treat them all as human beings, at least as much as is possible while still keeping them in prison.
My point? After your absolutely fucktarded edit I sincerely hope you get convicted of a crime you did not commit and get raped daily. Idiot.
How nice of you, to wish harm upon a person like that. Innoncent people don't deserve bad things happen to them. Did that boy that got raped brutally get a fair treatment? No. So the dude that did the raping doe snot either.
I guess most people wouldn't agree with me here, and I'm not saying this to flame or troll but:
I honestly beleive that some guy that stabs someone in the face does not deserve fair treatment as an equal human being. I wouldn't mind at all seeing criminals like murder just rot in a small cell all day long with some cheap, low-quality food as only nourishment. You're a murder or a rapist? You don't deserve to be treated fairly since you obviously don't care about the harm you inflict upon others.
Edit: and the solution to not getting raped in prison is: Don't be a fucking criminal.
So you've missed all the recent headlines like "Rapist Vindicated After 10 Years in Prison by DNA Evidence," huh?
I liked the recent one where a guy's alibi was finally confirmed (he had claimed to be at a baseball game at the time) when they dug through tossed footage from Curb Your Enthusiasm. Apparently they had been filming at that game for an episode. There he was, plain as day. Spent several months in prison, I believe.
Innocent people go to prison, too. So howsabout we treat them all as human beings, at least as much as is possible while still keeping them in prison.
My point? After your absolutely fucktarded edit I sincerely hope you get convicted of a crime you did not commit and get raped daily. Idiot.
How nice of you, to wish harm upon a person like that. Innoncent people don't deserve bad things happen to them. Did that boy that got raped brutally get a fair treatment? No. So the dude that did the raping doe snot either.
Okay, let me put it simply for you. "Don't be a fucking criminal" is not a solution to not getting raped in prison. Because people who are not criminals end up raped in prison. So you're a fucking retard, and you and others who share your attitude are a large part of the reason that prison rape continues to be ignored as an issue.
In other words, you are part of the reason innocent people get raped. Be proud.
EDIT: And I mean "innocent" as in "people who did not commit the crime they went to prison for." I'm not even getting into "victimless crimes" yet. Dipshit.
Actually, Fireflash, I'm just surprised it took this long.
I see you just got a triple-whammy from Vincent, sanstodo, and mcdermott. I agree with them--mostly. I do think that even the genuinely scummy people in prison are human and should be treated as such. I'd also like to point out that two wrongs do not make a right: the prison system should be rehabilitative and possibly a deterrant. Your vengeance-oriented vision of justice may lead us inadvertently to those ends, but in itself it is neither helpful nor right.
How nice of you, to wish harm upon a person like that. Innoncent people don't deserve bad things happen to them. Did that boy that got raped brutally get a fair treatment? No. So the dude that did the raping doe snot either.
Agreed with Loren.
@Fireflash: Did you read anything I wrote? It answered a lot of the issues you brought up and maybe explained the penal system a bit better to you.
I guess most people wouldn't agree with me here, and I'm not saying this to flame or troll but:
I honestly beleive that some guy that stabs someone in the face does not deserve fair treatment as an equal human being. I wouldn't mind at all seeing criminals like murder just rot in a small cell all day long with some cheap, low-quality food as only nourishment. You're a murder or a rapist? You don't deserve to be treated fairly since you obviously don't care about the harm you inflict upon others.
Edit: and the solution to not getting raped in prison is: Don't be a fucking criminal.
Don't you think it's a little unfair to group the people who had some weed on them while being too black for their own good with the rapists and murderers?
There's a degree to which I think you're right, but much like sex offenders being everyone from the 18 year old whose girlfriend's parents successfully nail him for statutory rape to the animals that fuck little boys in their basements, all criminals are not necessarily scum undeserving of a chance at a good life.
OK yes, I did overgeneralize, and i guess that's wrong. But in the case of "hardcore criminals" I think you should assume the consequences of your acts, even if that is getting raped by burly men in prison.
Actually, Fireflash, I'm just surprised it took this long.
I see you just got a triple-whammy from Vincent, sanstodo, and mcdermott. I agree with them--mostly. I do think that even the genuinely scummy people in prison are human and should be treated as such. I'd also like to point out that two wrongs do not make a right: the prison system should be rehabilitative and possibly a deterrant. Your vengeance-oriented vision of justice may lead us inadvertently to those ends, but in itself it is neither helpful nor right.
How nice of you, to wish harm upon a person like that. Innoncent people don't deserve bad things happen to them. Did that boy that got raped brutally get a fair treatment? No. So the dude that did the raping doe snot either.
Agreed with Loren.
@Fireflash: Did you read anything I wrote? It answered a lot of the issues you brought up and maybe explained the penal system a bit better to you.
Yes I know there are mistakes, and that's completely terirble, I agree. But wouldn,t that be more of an issue of making absolutely sure the suspect is actually the right person before sending him to jail?
I guess most people wouldn't agree with me here, and I'm not saying this to flame or troll but:
I honestly beleive that some guy that stabs someone in the face does not deserve fair treatment as an equal human being. I wouldn't mind at all seeing criminals like murder just rot in a small cell all day long with some cheap, low-quality food as only nourishment. You're a murder or a rapist? You don't deserve to be treated fairly since you obviously don't care about the harm you inflict upon others.
Edit: and the solution to not getting raped in prison is: Don't be a fucking criminal.
Don't you think it's a little unfair to group the people who had some weed on them while being too black for their own good with the rapists and murderers?
There's a degree to which I think you're right, but much like sex offenders being everyone from the 18 year old whose girlfriend's parents successfully nail him for statutory rape to the animals that fuck little boys in their basements, all criminals are not necessarily scum undeserving of a chance at a good life.
OK yes, I did overgeneralize, and i guess that's wrong. But in the case of "hardcore criminals" I think you should assume the consequences of your acts, even if that is getting raped by burly men in prison.
But that's not *SUPPOSED* to be the consequence of your actions. The attempts to punish and/or rehabilitate criminals don't include "let them get raped in prison by other criminals". That's not part of the system, and it shouldn't be fucking happening.
OK yes, I did overgeneralize, and i guess that's wrong. But in the case of "hardcore criminals" I think you should assume the consequences of your acts, even if that is getting raped by burly men in prison.
How do you tell the difference? We have "hardcore" white collar criminals who financially ruined their employees (probably ruining more lives than most violent criminals do) and they don't get nearly the same punishment as a guy who gets caught with weed 3 times (in certain states).
So is the guy who is shit poor, never got anywhere in a shitty inner-city public school, and can't find a decent job that horrible of a person if he starts dealing drugs to make a living? Let's say he's involved in an armed robbery in which no one gets hurt. Does he deserve to get raped by burly men in prison?
Your statements make it clear that you cannot possibly imagine yourself or those you love ever being criminals. I will repeat this once more: Your concept of the criminal is completely wrong.
OK yes, I did overgeneralize, and i guess that's wrong. But in the case of "hardcore criminals" I think you should assume the consequences of your acts, even if that is getting raped by burly men in prison.
So you....think rape is a reasonable punishment to sentence somebody to for a crime?
Also, are you recommending separate prisons for "hardcore criminals?" How do we weed them out from "normal criminals" or even "guys convicted of murder who never killed anybody?" Or do you only consider repeat offenders to be "hardcore criminals?"
Yes I know there are mistakes, and that's completely terirble, I agree. But wouldn,t that be more of an issue of making absolutely sure the suspect is actually the right person before sending him to jail?
Which is absolutely impossible to do. Why else would we have an appeals process? Wouldn't it instead be better to eliminate our current "rape as punishment" system, so that nobody has to worry about getting raped in prison? At least no more than outside prison, that is.
Out of curiosity, what crimes do you think should carry "forcible assrape" as a sentence?
How nice of you, to wish harm upon a person like that. Innoncent people don't deserve bad things happen to them. Did that boy that got raped brutally get a fair treatment? No. So the dude that did the raping doe snot either.
Agreed with Loren.
@Fireflash: Did you read anything I wrote? It answered a lot of the issues you brought up and maybe explained the penal system a bit better to you.
Yes I know there are mistakes, and that's completely terirble, I agree. But wouldn,t that be more of an issue of making absolutely sure the suspect is actually the right person before sending him to jail?
You still haven't responded to anything I wrote in my first post. The important part is that you have no clue about who actually commits crimes, the reasons behind most crimes, and the intent of our penal system.
You have this strange idea of all murderers as serial killers and rapists as child-kidnapping monsters. News flash: Those ideas are wrong.
OK yes, I did overgeneralize, and i guess that's wrong. But in the case of "hardcore criminals" I think you should assume the consequences of your acts, even if that is getting raped by burly men in prison.
One problem with viewing rape as a valid form of punishment is that a good chunk of rapists also view rape as a valid form of punishment and it is often a component of their motivation to commit rape. Do you really think that thought along the lines of "Rape; that'll teach 'em" is even vaguely productive, rational or even civilized? And do you think that punishing people with rape is going to do any good at all in preventing them from repeating their offense, given how badly it fucks up people's minds?
Actually, Fireflash, I'm just surprised it took this long.
I see you just got a triple-whammy from Vincent, sanstodo, and mcdermott. I agree with them--mostly. I do think that even the genuinely scummy people in prison are human and should be treated as such. I'd also like to point out that two wrongs do not make a right: the prison system should be rehabilitative and possibly a deterrant. Your vengeance-oriented vision of justice may lead us inadvertently to those ends, but in itself it is neither helpful nor right.
I'm interested; what parts do you disagree with?
Well, one, the part where we decide that Really Bad Criminals aren't really human. That's really bad. The worst we can conclude is that they are broken humans. This is not a nature vs. nurture argument--inherently broken works just as well for my purposes. So if the purpose of the system is to minimize human unhappiness, then we do have to account for criminal suffering as well.
So at that point it's largely a question of psychology. You aren't making people suffer because roar, they are evil; you're making them suffer because you hope that potential suffering will a) deter crime and b) reform criminals. Deterrant is questionable when you look at the really large prison populations, but I'm no psychologist, so I'll only register concern on that point. I think it's pretty obvious though that our painful and oppressive jails aren't great for reform.
Oh, and my view on non-reformable prisoners, even if we can accurately judge which ones those might be, is that we shouldn't freaking torture them and that they fall simply under the third purpose of jails: c) containment.
But that's not *SUPPOSED* to be the consequence of your actions. The attempts to punish and/or rehabilitate criminals don't include "let them get raped in prison by other criminals". That's not part of the system, and it shouldn't be fucking happening.
Exactly. That's the non-controversial aspect of prison rape. If it IS intended, it is cruel and unusual punishment.
BTW, as you can see I'm not a fan of anybody getting raped in prison. Not even child-kidnapping murderers. Not even rapists.
But you know what? If anybody is going to be getting raped in prison I'd rather it be you Fireflash. Because fuckers like you, and your "they get what they deserve" attitude, are a part of why this problem is so difficult to get fixed. Because fuck it, they're just criminals right?
Except that A) even criminals have a basic human right not to be raped and not everybody in prison is even a criminal.
And no, there is no room for middle ground here. Either you support the idea of "hardcoore criminals" getting raped, in which case unfortunately some non-hardcore criminals (and probably some non-criminals) will get raped too...or you oppose any criminals getting raped. This is the really real world, and there's no way to ensure our "assrape as punishment" system only violates the sphincters of those that truly deserve it.
BTW, as you can see I'm not a fan of anybody getting raped in prison. Not even child-kidnapping murderers. Not even rapists.
But you know what? If anybody is going to be getting raped in prison I'd rather it be you Fireflash. Because fuckers like you, and your "they get what they deserve" attitude, are a part of why this problem is so difficult to get fixed. Because fuck it, they're just criminals right?
Except that A) even criminals have a basic human right not to be raped and not everybody in prison is even a criminal.
And no, there is no room for middle ground here. Either you support the idea of "hardcoore criminals" getting raped, in which case unfortunately some non-hardcore criminals (and probably some non-criminals) will get raped too...or you oppose any criminals getting raped. This is the really real world, and there's no way to ensure our "assrape as punishment" system only violates the sphincters of those that truly deserve it.
Actually, Fireflash, I'm just surprised it took this long.
I see you just got a triple-whammy from Vincent, sanstodo, and mcdermott. I agree with them--mostly. I do think that even the genuinely scummy people in prison are human and should be treated as such. I'd also like to point out that two wrongs do not make a right: the prison system should be rehabilitative and possibly a deterrant. Your vengeance-oriented vision of justice may lead us inadvertently to those ends, but in itself it is neither helpful nor right.
I'm interested; what parts do you disagree with?
Well, one, the part where we decide that Really Bad Criminals aren't really human. That's really bad. The worst we can conclude is that they are broken humans. This is not a nature vs. nurture argument--inherently broken works just as well for my purposes. So if the purpose of the system is to minimize human unhappiness, then we do have to account for criminal suffering as well.
So at that point it's largely a question of psychology. You aren't making people suffer because roar, they are evil; you're making them suffer because you hope that potential suffering will a) deter crime and b) reform criminals. Deterrant is questionable when you look at the really large prison populations, but I'm no psychologist, so I'll only register concern on that point. I think it's pretty obvious though that our painful and oppressive jails aren't great for reform.
Oh, and my view on non-reformable prisoners, even if we can accurately judge which ones those might be, is that we shouldn't freaking torture them and that they fall simply under the third purpose of jails: c) containment.
But that's not *SUPPOSED* to be the consequence of your actions. The attempts to punish and/or rehabilitate criminals don't include "let them get raped in prison by other criminals". That's not part of the system, and it shouldn't be fucking happening.
Exactly. That's the non-controversial aspect of prison rape. If it IS intended, it is cruel and unusual punishment.
Prison only works as a deterrent when people are making rational decisions in which they even consider consequences (which isn't true for crimes of passion) or when the punishment is worse than what would happen for the action. So if your choice is starve to death or go to jail for stealing, the choice is obvious. In a more real-life scenario, if your choices are flipping burgers at McDonald's for the rest of your life or start dealing drugs hoping you'll hit it rich some day at the risk of going to jail, most would deal drugs. That's oversimplified (lots of drug dealers try to break into the mainstream economy) but without cultural capital, it's hard to do anything else.
A good book on drug dealers in LA is "In Search of Respect" by Philippe Bourgeois (sp?)
Our jails do need a great deal of work, as does the court system. Capital punishment is another sticking point because it seems to go against the very ideal of the rehabilitative prison system but I'll leave that for another debate
I agree that prisoners who cannot be rehabilitated for whatever reason should be contained. That's why we have life sentences in jail. It not only contains them but holds out the faintest hope that they will contribute something useful at any point in their lives. We have had success; Tookie Williams was a great example. His execution was a horrible injustice.
Oh, and another fun part about prisoner rape: if we're talking about anybody not serving a life sentence without parole you have to figure that at some point you're going to be releasing somebody back into society with some serious issues...as in, likely more issues than when they went in.
For instance, John William King. Take away our love of seeing criminals assraped and it's quite possible he never ends up dragging some poor black guy to death behind his truck.
Oh, and another fun part about prisoner rape: if we're talking about anybody not serving a life sentence without parole you have to figure that at some point you're going to be releasing somebody back into society with some serious issues...as in, likely more issues than when they went in.
For instance, John William King. Take away our love of seeing criminals assraped and it's quite possible he never ends up dragging some poor black guy to death behind his truck.
Not to mention that victims of sexual assault and abuse are more likely to sexually assault and abuse others.
I don't say they absolutely need to be punished by being raped by other prisonners. More of a: "Don't expect to have a nice life in prison, it's not a vacation, and we shouldn't go out of our way and spend money so that prisonners have a nice stay. Prison life should in no way be enjoyable.
I wouldn't sentence people to "get raped for x years" but I wouldn't go out of my way to make sure it doesn't happen.
I don't say they absolutely need to be punished by being raped by other prisonners. More of a: "Don't expect to have a nice life in prison, it's not a vacation, and we shouldn't go out of our way and spend money so that prisonners have a nice stay. Prison life should in no way be enjoyable.
I wouldn't sentence people to "get raped for x years" but I wouldn't go out of my way to make sure it doesn't happen.
I don't say they absolutely need to be punished by being raped by other prisonners. More of a: "Don't expect to have a nice life in prison, it's not a vacation, and we shouldn't go out of our way and spend money so that prisonners have a nice stay. Prison life should in no way be enjoyable.
That does not mean it should be a form of torture. There is a difference between prison not being a vacation and prison being a hellish torture palace. Rape is not something that should be allowed in any form. Just because the people getting raped are bad people does not mean we shouldn't protect them.
I don't say they absolutely need to be punished by being raped by other prisonners. More of a: "Don't expect to have a nice life in prison, it's not a vacation, and we shouldn't go out of our way and spend money so that prisonners have a nice stay. Prison life should in no way be enjoyable.
I wouldn't sentence people to "get raped for x years" but I wouldn't go out of my way to make sure it doesn't happen.
Okay, you already said that. And then people responded to it. Do you have a response to the responses or are you planning to just keep repeating that you're okay with rape until we are too?
I don't say they absolutely need to be punished by being raped by other prisonners. More of a: "Don't expect to have a nice life in prison, it's not a vacation, and we shouldn't go out of our way and spend money so that prisonners have a nice stay. Prison life should in no way be enjoyable.
I wouldn't sentence people to "get raped for x years" but I wouldn't go out of my way to make sure it doesn't happen.
Have you read anything that people are writing?
Yes but..
the fact that they have bad conditions in prison won't help them become better humans.. that I agree with. But wouldn't that same fact help discourage people from commiting crime in the first place:
-I get a nice steak and potatoes meal every supper, I get exercise, get to do some activites in group, get books to read, etc.
or
-Or I live in a small cramped cell, barely ever get to see the sunlight, can't do anything all day but sit in a corner, eat some shitty food and be depressed.
Which of these situations would scare would-be criminals the most?
Edit: The best way I can speak my point of view without just saying angry/stupîd stuff like I did as first is: If prison conditions are better, you would care less about going to prison than if they were bad.
Posts
It's less than a hundredth of a percent of the human population, so I'm willing to accept that number pretty easily.
That's the only criteria by which you judge? That it is or isn't compulsory?
Something like this could never be compulsory - there will never be a law requiring inmates to sign away their organs - so I find your statement a little odd.
It reeks of false-choice to me. "Okay, you can give up an organ or get raped repeatedly for the next six months." No law exists in a vacuum.
Edit: I also see no reason to believe that giving up an organ will make offenders any less likely to recidivate.
I think prison rape is also bad, and is an issue that absolutely must be dealt with.
I think it's an issue that must be dealt with before I'll consider a law like this to actually be voluntary.
Duh.
Hey, you pretty much hit the point I wanted to make right before I showed up. I don't necessarily have a huge problem with a voluntary program like this in the abstract (though at that point I should be able to sell my own kidneys for cash as well). But until we clean up our prison system such that we no longer use the threat of forcible sodomy as a deterrent to crime I'm not comfortable with this.
I mean, considering the risk of contracting HIV from prisoner rape you're basically telling them they have a choice between giving up an organ or risking death for six more months. Yeah, some choice.
That argument persuades me. I'll agree with you and mcdermott.
Damn, you guys got to this before I did
@Shinto: There are countries in this world (many European countries, for instance) that have opt-out programs. These aren't magical fairy dust solutions. They are policies adopted in other developed nations that solve a lot of these ethical problems quite nicely.
Like for all demographics, I think it should be opt-out. So yes, unless they specify that they don't wish to donate their organs or specific organs.
I honestly beleive that some guy that stabs someone in the face does not deserve fair treatment as an equal human being. I wouldn't mind at all seeing criminals like murder just rot in a small cell all day long with some cheap, low-quality food as only nourishment. You're a murder or a rapist? You don't deserve to be treated fairly since you obviously don't care about the harm you inflict upon others.
Edit: and the solution to not getting raped in prison is: Don't be a fucking criminal.
Battle.net: Fireflash#1425
Steam Friend code: 45386507
So you've missed all the recent headlines like "Rapist Vindicated After 10 Years in Prison by DNA Evidence," huh?
I liked the recent one where a guy's alibi was finally confirmed (he had claimed to be at a baseball game at the time) when they dug through tossed footage from Curb Your Enthusiasm. Apparently they had been filming at that game for an episode. There he was, plain as day. Spent several months in prison, I believe.
Innocent people go to prison, too. So howsabout we treat them all as human beings, at least as much as is possible while still keeping them in prison.
My point? After your absolutely fucktarded edit I sincerely hope you get convicted of a crime you did not commit and get raped daily. Idiot.
EDIT: Hell, you don't even have to get convicted. There's always the case of they guy who got picked up after a traffic stop because he shared the same name as a criminal. Raped in jail while waiting for it to get sorted out. I guess he deserved to get raped though...after all, he was probably speeding and had a Hispanic name.
Most murderers do so in a fit of passion. The vast majority are not cold-blooded killers, despite what the media might make you think.
In any case, the penal system in the US is NOT a punitive one. It is a rehabilitative one. We're trying to (in theory though it doesn't really work that way in practice) help our criminals become functioning, law-abiding members of society.
You should examine your statements and think about how much you've dehumanized criminals. Then consider that maybe a relative or friend may become on someday. You don't know; no one ever believes that their brother or friend or sister or mother might do something illegal, like get busted for violating stupid 3 strike laws and have to do many, many years. Would you want them to be treated that way?
Let's say you get in a drunken fight in a fraternity and you accidentally push a guy down a flight of stairs. He dies. You plead guilty and get 15 years (give or take). You're not an inherently violent person; you didn't mean to kill them. It just........happened. How would you want to be treated?
Dostoevsky got it right: “The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons.”
Don't you think it's a little unfair to group the people who had some weed on them while being too black for their own good with the rapists and murderers?
There's a degree to which I think you're right, but much like sex offenders being everyone from the 18 year old whose girlfriend's parents successfully nail him for statutory rape to the animals that fuck little boys in their basements, all criminals are not necessarily scum undeserving of a chance at a good life.
How nice of you, to wish harm upon a person like that. Innoncent people don't deserve bad things happen to them. Did that boy that got raped brutally get a fair treatment? No. So the dude that did the raping doe snot either.
Battle.net: Fireflash#1425
Steam Friend code: 45386507
Okay, let me put it simply for you. "Don't be a fucking criminal" is not a solution to not getting raped in prison. Because people who are not criminals end up raped in prison. So you're a fucking retard, and you and others who share your attitude are a large part of the reason that prison rape continues to be ignored as an issue.
In other words, you are part of the reason innocent people get raped. Be proud.
EDIT: And I mean "innocent" as in "people who did not commit the crime they went to prison for." I'm not even getting into "victimless crimes" yet. Dipshit.
I see you just got a triple-whammy from Vincent, sanstodo, and mcdermott. I agree with them--mostly. I do think that even the genuinely scummy people in prison are human and should be treated as such. I'd also like to point out that two wrongs do not make a right: the prison system should be rehabilitative and possibly a deterrant. Your vengeance-oriented vision of justice may lead us inadvertently to those ends, but in itself it is neither helpful nor right.
Agreed with Loren.
@Fireflash: Did you read anything I wrote? It answered a lot of the issues you brought up and maybe explained the penal system a bit better to you.
OK yes, I did overgeneralize, and i guess that's wrong. But in the case of "hardcore criminals" I think you should assume the consequences of your acts, even if that is getting raped by burly men in prison.
Battle.net: Fireflash#1425
Steam Friend code: 45386507
I'm interested; what parts do you disagree with?
Yes I know there are mistakes, and that's completely terirble, I agree. But wouldn,t that be more of an issue of making absolutely sure the suspect is actually the right person before sending him to jail?
Battle.net: Fireflash#1425
Steam Friend code: 45386507
But that's not *SUPPOSED* to be the consequence of your actions. The attempts to punish and/or rehabilitate criminals don't include "let them get raped in prison by other criminals". That's not part of the system, and it shouldn't be fucking happening.
How do you tell the difference? We have "hardcore" white collar criminals who financially ruined their employees (probably ruining more lives than most violent criminals do) and they don't get nearly the same punishment as a guy who gets caught with weed 3 times (in certain states).
So is the guy who is shit poor, never got anywhere in a shitty inner-city public school, and can't find a decent job that horrible of a person if he starts dealing drugs to make a living? Let's say he's involved in an armed robbery in which no one gets hurt. Does he deserve to get raped by burly men in prison?
Your statements make it clear that you cannot possibly imagine yourself or those you love ever being criminals. I will repeat this once more: Your concept of the criminal is completely wrong.
So you....think rape is a reasonable punishment to sentence somebody to for a crime?
Also, are you recommending separate prisons for "hardcore criminals?" How do we weed them out from "normal criminals" or even "guys convicted of murder who never killed anybody?" Or do you only consider repeat offenders to be "hardcore criminals?"
Which is absolutely impossible to do. Why else would we have an appeals process? Wouldn't it instead be better to eliminate our current "rape as punishment" system, so that nobody has to worry about getting raped in prison? At least no more than outside prison, that is.
Out of curiosity, what crimes do you think should carry "forcible assrape" as a sentence?
You still haven't responded to anything I wrote in my first post. The important part is that you have no clue about who actually commits crimes, the reasons behind most crimes, and the intent of our penal system.
You have this strange idea of all murderers as serial killers and rapists as child-kidnapping monsters. News flash: Those ideas are wrong.
One problem with viewing rape as a valid form of punishment is that a good chunk of rapists also view rape as a valid form of punishment and it is often a component of their motivation to commit rape. Do you really think that thought along the lines of "Rape; that'll teach 'em" is even vaguely productive, rational or even civilized? And do you think that punishing people with rape is going to do any good at all in preventing them from repeating their offense, given how badly it fucks up people's minds?
Well, one, the part where we decide that Really Bad Criminals aren't really human. That's really bad. The worst we can conclude is that they are broken humans. This is not a nature vs. nurture argument--inherently broken works just as well for my purposes. So if the purpose of the system is to minimize human unhappiness, then we do have to account for criminal suffering as well.
So at that point it's largely a question of psychology. You aren't making people suffer because roar, they are evil; you're making them suffer because you hope that potential suffering will a) deter crime and b) reform criminals. Deterrant is questionable when you look at the really large prison populations, but I'm no psychologist, so I'll only register concern on that point. I think it's pretty obvious though that our painful and oppressive jails aren't great for reform.
Oh, and my view on non-reformable prisoners, even if we can accurately judge which ones those might be, is that we shouldn't freaking torture them and that they fall simply under the third purpose of jails: c) containment.
Exactly. That's the non-controversial aspect of prison rape. If it IS intended, it is cruel and unusual punishment.
But you know what? If anybody is going to be getting raped in prison I'd rather it be you Fireflash. Because fuckers like you, and your "they get what they deserve" attitude, are a part of why this problem is so difficult to get fixed. Because fuck it, they're just criminals right?
Except that A) even criminals have a basic human right not to be raped and
And no, there is no room for middle ground here. Either you support the idea of "hardcoore criminals" getting raped, in which case unfortunately some non-hardcore criminals (and probably some non-criminals) will get raped too...or you oppose any criminals getting raped. This is the really real world, and there's no way to ensure our "assrape as punishment" system only violates the sphincters of those that truly deserve it.
That and excusing rape is bad form in general.
Prison only works as a deterrent when people are making rational decisions in which they even consider consequences (which isn't true for crimes of passion) or when the punishment is worse than what would happen for the action. So if your choice is starve to death or go to jail for stealing, the choice is obvious. In a more real-life scenario, if your choices are flipping burgers at McDonald's for the rest of your life or start dealing drugs hoping you'll hit it rich some day at the risk of going to jail, most would deal drugs. That's oversimplified (lots of drug dealers try to break into the mainstream economy) but without cultural capital, it's hard to do anything else.
A good book on drug dealers in LA is "In Search of Respect" by Philippe Bourgeois (sp?)
Our jails do need a great deal of work, as does the court system. Capital punishment is another sticking point because it seems to go against the very ideal of the rehabilitative prison system but I'll leave that for another debate
I agree that prisoners who cannot be rehabilitated for whatever reason should be contained. That's why we have life sentences in jail. It not only contains them but holds out the faintest hope that they will contribute something useful at any point in their lives. We have had success; Tookie Williams was a great example. His execution was a horrible injustice.
For instance, John William King. Take away our love of seeing criminals assraped and it's quite possible he never ends up dragging some poor black guy to death behind his truck.
Not to mention that victims of sexual assault and abuse are more likely to sexually assault and abuse others.
I wouldn't sentence people to "get raped for x years" but I wouldn't go out of my way to make sure it doesn't happen.
Battle.net: Fireflash#1425
Steam Friend code: 45386507
Have you read anything that people are writing?
That does not mean it should be a form of torture. There is a difference between prison not being a vacation and prison being a hellish torture palace. Rape is not something that should be allowed in any form. Just because the people getting raped are bad people does not mean we shouldn't protect them.
Okay, you already said that. And then people responded to it. Do you have a response to the responses or are you planning to just keep repeating that you're okay with rape until we are too?
Yes but..
the fact that they have bad conditions in prison won't help them become better humans.. that I agree with. But wouldn't that same fact help discourage people from commiting crime in the first place:
-I get a nice steak and potatoes meal every supper, I get exercise, get to do some activites in group, get books to read, etc.
or
-Or I live in a small cramped cell, barely ever get to see the sunlight, can't do anything all day but sit in a corner, eat some shitty food and be depressed.
Which of these situations would scare would-be criminals the most?
Edit: The best way I can speak my point of view without just saying angry/stupîd stuff like I did as first is: If prison conditions are better, you would care less about going to prison than if they were bad.
Battle.net: Fireflash#1425
Steam Friend code: 45386507