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Thoughts on entering the IT industry?
Hensler
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Hey everyone, I'd like to get your thoughts on the decision of moving into the IT sector as a career. I've got a lot conflicting reports and read many different job outlook predictions online - everything from it being one of the better fields to move into according to some sites, and other sites saying it will be impossible to get any sort of job.
Here's my story: I'm a disabled Iraq/Afghanistan veteran and planned on making the military a career, and then following my family into law enforcement. When I got out, I was in bad shape - very limited mobility and diagnosed with some extreme PTSD and depression. After talking with different law enforcement agencies, I found out that with those issues, and the PTSD medicine I was taking, it would be really hard for me to get into any sort of law enforcement job. I sought out advice on this and other message boards I frequented, and was thinking of going to school to study game design. Through that process, I basically lucked into a great job with a marketing company that was making Augmented Reality Games, but I was on the sales side of things, not design. It was a great job with great pay, but it was also something I had no qualifications for and I basically had business having that position
. That company recently downsized me and many other, and I've been thinking about what I want to do next.
I still have my GI Bill to use, and get full disability from the VA, so going back to school wouldn't be a problem. I have a small amount of IT experience - I worked in a mom-and-pop computer shop for a couple of years while in high school, and was cross-trained in PC repair in the military (I started out as a Marine Assaultman, then later lat-moved to be a Field Radio Repairman, which is where I was cross trained to repair PCs). I really enjoyed those jobs - both diagnosing and repairing systems in a tech support role, and the networking side of it. If I were to get into IT, I'd probably aim at going at network admin jobs, though I would enjoy help desk or the engineering side of things. I'm looking at computer science as a major.
I'm also thinking about getting the basic Comptia A+ and Network+ certs while I'm going to school, and seek out entry level positions or internships. I can live off of my disability and my wife's income, but I really like to be working. Right now all I've got is an Associate's Degree in Marketing - which has been just about worthless in finding a new job.
Anybody have any thoughts/advice/recommendations about the IT industry or those certifications that they would like to share? Is there a good chance of finding a job after I go to school?
Here's my story: I'm a disabled Iraq/Afghanistan veteran and planned on making the military a career, and then following my family into law enforcement. When I got out, I was in bad shape - very limited mobility and diagnosed with some extreme PTSD and depression. After talking with different law enforcement agencies, I found out that with those issues, and the PTSD medicine I was taking, it would be really hard for me to get into any sort of law enforcement job. I sought out advice on this and other message boards I frequented, and was thinking of going to school to study game design. Through that process, I basically lucked into a great job with a marketing company that was making Augmented Reality Games, but I was on the sales side of things, not design. It was a great job with great pay, but it was also something I had no qualifications for and I basically had business having that position
. That company recently downsized me and many other, and I've been thinking about what I want to do next.I still have my GI Bill to use, and get full disability from the VA, so going back to school wouldn't be a problem. I have a small amount of IT experience - I worked in a mom-and-pop computer shop for a couple of years while in high school, and was cross-trained in PC repair in the military (I started out as a Marine Assaultman, then later lat-moved to be a Field Radio Repairman, which is where I was cross trained to repair PCs). I really enjoyed those jobs - both diagnosing and repairing systems in a tech support role, and the networking side of it. If I were to get into IT, I'd probably aim at going at network admin jobs, though I would enjoy help desk or the engineering side of things. I'm looking at computer science as a major.
I'm also thinking about getting the basic Comptia A+ and Network+ certs while I'm going to school, and seek out entry level positions or internships. I can live off of my disability and my wife's income, but I really like to be working. Right now all I've got is an Associate's Degree in Marketing - which has been just about worthless in finding a new job.
Anybody have any thoughts/advice/recommendations about the IT industry or those certifications that they would like to share? Is there a good chance of finding a job after I go to school?
Hensler on
Posts
Thanks for any help/advice you can offer
As someone who has been in IT for about 6 years now, i'd say it's an above average field to get into (depending on what you're going to be doing). Your best bet would be going to school and getting an internship while you're in school. A lot of companies will hire on their interns once they finish the degree (assuming you do a good job). Otherwise, you'll most likely be finding yourself doing contract work (it feels like 75% of IT jobs are contract nowadays). Personally, I say don't worry about certs, everywhere i've worked no one has even asked about them in interviews. Most certs just prove that you know how to study, not that you actually know what you're doing when it comes to hands on work.
If you want to find a job, the most in demand position right now is .NET developer (not really IT, but if you get a CS degree, i'd advise learning C#)
Job-wise it's a little different than what programmers have on offer. Almost every office company needs an IT guy, the big ones might have an IT team, but it's a separate group from what the company does as a business. I'd expect your job promotion opportunities would probably consist of "IT Guy -> IT Manager" and stop there. Programmers, most companies don't need their own, but the ones that do do programming generally do it as their main thing. In our office of about 16 people, we've got about ten software engineers (including both of the execs) and one IT guy.
I've never been IT, and I don't mean to look down on IT guys, but in my mind computer science guys are like the engineers that design a city's water system while IT guys are the plumbers.
HOWEVER, if you do want a change, it can be harder to move into a different or programming role. Though as you go even higher (Senior Managers, Project Managers) they typically have more of an MBA background rather than a CSC degree.
Biggest thing I say for career advice, is start to look for jobs now and see what they want as experience / education. You can look to see what the day to day tasks are and what you need to get there.
It's almost certainly easier to go from a comp sci to an IT than vice versa, I think. But it's also a step down paygrade-wise, generally speaking I'm pretty sure programmers earn a bit more than IT.
Being a vet will get you job offers from the Feds, provided that you have right qualifications and there isn't a hiring/spending freeze after the November election. You may have a hard time getting an offer in your area, but that preference means a lot.
Computer Science is good, and you don't necessarily have to code once you've got the degree. I'm interning as a CS major, and I'm programming, but I could easily switch to another department to build/repair computers or manage servers or databases (I just so happen to prefer programming).
Computer Engineering is good. It's a lot like Computer Science, but more hardware focused. CS and CE at my university have probably 2/3 of classes in common.
I agree with supabeast about the possibility of learning about hardware/software that will eventually be outdated. Again, this all depends on the quality of the academic program. CS/CE typically focuses on theory and fundamentals, which allows you to learn about new hardware/software easier and faster.
How little are you willing to settle for initially?
If you're looking to move quickly into the field, I suggest going to New Horizons and taking their course that will teach you A+, Network+ and Security+. The cost of your training materials, class time and tests are included in the price they charge, which is helpful. If you feel comfortable enough learning on your own, there's a series of books written by Mike Meyers that you can purchase. You'll have to pay for the tests out of pocket but it's up to your learning style.
Those three certs will easily get your foot in the door.
Edit: In regards to computer science and computer engineering, as was said, they are mostly about programming and high level math. I would really only move into these fields you feel strong about your math skills. The other thing about those two fields is that they are commitments. Most of your course schedule will revolve around them. The amount of electives you have available to you drops considerably. So you have to be really committed that this is what you want to do before going for CS/CE. As my personal anecdote, I spent 3 years in college (plus 3 years of high school) in a CS program only to realize it wasn't what I wanted to do. I wound up using my credits at another college to finish my associates degree and later get my A+ and Network+ certs to land the job I have now.
Where an how a vet served can have a pretty big impact on getting background checks and clearances. Soldiers who have been around a lot can see their investigations drag on for well over a year. But security is a good area to get into. It is worth noting that there are few, if any, good college programs in network security—if you want to learn to hack networks you either teach yourself or learn on the job.
I've been in IT for going on 13 years now (13 years...Jesus...I'm getting old). A lot of great suggestions have been given, and they're all pretty good. You have a lot of options! From programming, to network security, to general IT sysadmin work, the IT field has tremendous amount of specialties you can work in. In my opinion, what makes someone succesful in IT is three things: Job xp, certs, and education. When you have all three, that's a solid career.
You've already started down the right path - you know what you need to succeed - and in your case, it's education. First, and foremost, do not go to a non-accredited school. That means stay away from ITT, or schools of that ilk. Those schools will milk your G.I. bill, and not offer you a real degree to go with it. Your degree needs to carry you your entire career, especially if you opt for a masters program, in which case, those non-accredited degrees are worth dick all, and do not transfer to other accredited schools.
While you're in school, you can opt for some basic certs. Certs are great in the respect that they offer immediate gratification for someone looking to get into IT. They can help compensate for a lack of OTJ - some of which you seem to have through the military. But if you're in school full time, don't worry about it. You can get certs at any time - school is important, and cert studying can be a very distracting thing.
As for what degree, most institutions offer basic IT degree's. Those are your sysadmin degree's, and they'll mix in some basic programming, network security, business management, and a healthy dose of general IT classes. If you take a lot of one class, and really determine you're good at/like the material, then you can opt to specialize while in school.
Once you've accumulated enough education, have some certificates under your belt, and can combine that with your military training, you'll be in a good spot to find work. It should be noted that a lot of IT guys do fine without a degree - for a while, I was one of them. But in the long run, the degree will help elevate your career when it eventually plateaus out. It's a sound, and very worthwhile investment.
You can probably find a fairly entry level IT job and possibly get additional training and schooling through your work.
The reason you hear conflicting reports is
1) Perception changes over a short period of time
2) IT covers a lot of things.
Let's assume you're simply referring to IT as basic technical/networking support for a business
I am not an IT person. I am a software developer and I know a lot of wannabe-software-developers who crashed out and got into IT instead
Here is what I think
1) Biggest problem with IT is that you are highly replaceable. The mark of any profession where you are absolutely just a cog in the wheel is one where you can't even enter the job market until you have a certification like A+. This means your salary will be subject to many forces including how good (or bad) the company you work for is. Meaning the job market is not only competitive in the sense that "oh crap I need a job", but also competitive in the sense that "if I get stuck at a crappy company, my wages and career advancement will suffer"... of course this is true for almost everything, but especially true for expandable labor. IT ranks pretty high on the expandability chart within tech sector jobs. Most of the good IT guys I know are the types who find a cozy company and stay there for two decades. They don't job hop like us nasty programmers do.
2) You must deal with people. Not just "the users", but also with your fellow IT guy who does nothing all day but complain about users and spout possibly inaccurate information about computers and ask you to join his WoW guild. Also he may wear sunglasses while indoors. He got them at a pagoda at the mall after seeing Matrix Revolutions.
3) If you have free college available to you, do it. Don't even think about doing anything else. Either CompSci or Eng would be massively better for you than settling to be IT. IT is as entry level as entry level gets in the computing world... it's one step above data entry. If you forgo an education to do that instead then you're shooting yourself in the foot.
These are my opinions. Sorry, IT people reading this.
I'm a software guy that doubles as an admin. The admin guy is replaceable by software guys in most situations, assuming you're not a buffoon. I wouldn't hesitate to never do this again if money was good though. Stick with a more valuable degree like compsci or whatever else, general IT is a waste of your time and money.
Overall I really enjoy my job but I'm not in a sweatshop with 100 other neckbeards.
That is why I was clear to point out that I am talking about only the most boilerplate edition of IT guy
i refer to the former as "all around computer handy man"
which is also a good thing to be so long as you work for the right people
eh i'm going to disagree, sure if you're just setting up one DC, if you're planning and rolling out a netowrk for 5000+ users with multiple subnets, firewalls etc. Multiple VMhosts with redundancies,vlans etc. and then administering it afterwards there's no way a software guy can do it. There's a reason why server guys typically get paid more at larger companies. I actually have a comp sci and a Networking specialized degree, i ended up going into networking because the pay is roughly double
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Yep, the real network guys make bank. Plus you're non-exempt (from what I've seen) so if you do work crazy hours, you actually get paid for it. That said, you mainly get paid to solve all the problems the devs didn't document.
Only for very simple networks or very small organizations.
I can't tell you the number of companies I've worked with as a consultant who ended up with major problems because their network was originally put together by a software developer who thought that system administration didn't take any special experience.
To a certain degree, this is all true.
However, not entirely. Let me put a bit of perspective on this.
I'm a system administration generalist. I do small businesses (500 employees or fewer) and I've bounced between consulting and in-house IT management. I do a little bit of everything: networking, voice, email, website, etc.
There are a lot of us generalists out there, and most of the time, we end up working with small businesses. This also limits our salary, you're never going to make big bucks doing that, but you'll also never have a hard time finding work that pays a decent moderate salary. It's not glamorous work.
This kind of small/medium-business IT generalist work is what Jasconius is talking about, and everything he says there is true.
However, you don't have to settle for that level. If you want to advance from that level, you need to either specialize in a particular technology (for example: Oracle databases, or Exchange e-mail), learn software development, or get a business degree. Eventually, you're going to run into a situation where your boss was an IT guy like you, but he decided to go get an MBA and now he's a CIO making twice what you make. Or, you decide to outsource your company's email to somebody like Microsoft or Rackspace, and your main support contact at Microsoft is a guy who has every Exchange certification and does nothing but Exchange all day every day. And he makes more than you, too.
It is really easy to sort of settle into that IT generalist position, though, and just coast through several years of your life without advancing at all. Believe me, I know.
Most situations.
It is super easy to settle. I make less than I should but I also dont
A. Have to be on call 24/7. If something fucks up overnight, usually it doesn't matter till 7:30 AM.
B. Need to constantly be in competition with other people I know are better than me when it comes to knowledge
C. Need to be learning every new thing out there
D. Have shit roll down when something is amiss.
Over the last 5 years I really have settled in and I'm pretty bored at work but it's a steady paycheck, they need me, they like me because I am good with people. Is it a dream job? No. But there are totally worse ways to make a living.
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As an FYI - with security clearances, you have 2 years from the last time they were needed (I imagine when you separated from the Marines) before they expire. I've seen guys with expired clearances easily get new ones, BUT - you'll need to go through the SF-86 again and fill everything out.
Henroid is right. I've taken 8 certification tests now, and it's easy to place yourself in the mindset of 'I'll do it by X or Y', and then never do it. Certifications add immediate weight to a resume - and while they aren't shoo-ins for most job hires, they help a whole damn bunch.
Damn, really? I was told it was basically just a renewal form I had to fill out to get the old clearance reinstated. The process was a pain the first time I did it. Oh well, at least I know I'll pass it.
It depends honestly - how many years since you last had it? A few years will be alright to speed you through the process again. Anything longer than your last investigation will still be a new SF-86, for sure. For a secret though, it's easy. No interviews or whatever - you just fill it out, and wait. A TS is another matter entirely.
I've worked all over in both IT an programming - started with no degree during the DotCom era doing things like desktop support, did some certifications (A+ and MCSE) moved into some system admin duties, went back to school and got a CS degree, worked as a programmer in the video game industry, worked at a start up and became more of a team lead/management type, and I'm now in the process of getting an MBA. I'm 34 now and have around 10 years of industry experience across all of those things. I currently (last six months) work in a finance role (risk analysis) at a major bank, which is something I'm doing in conjunction with the MBA. Maybe I will end up like that CIO mentioned above.
I can't answer questions about U.S. security clearances as I am Canadian, but a good friend of mine was in the Canadian Forces (infantry), went and did a community college program in information technology, and found his military service opened a lot of doors for him. I would definitely encourage you to pursue any opportunities that are open to you in this regard, as this line of work is both lucrative and often more stable than other IT work. The downside is you often end up in a more hierarchical and bureaucratic organization. That may or may not appeal to you depending on your personality. Since you are familiar with this sort of environment from the military, you likely know what sort of conditions suit you best.
If you have already successfully passed A+ practice tests, I would not procrastinate on writing the exam. Book one in the near future, study, do some more practice tests, and ace it. You may also want to look at Network+ and/or Security+ if you are planning to be on the security side of things. The Cisco line of certifications are also good - CCNA being a logical target. Doing several entry-level/introductory certifications can be helpful. From a hiring standpoint, I would recommend not getting too deep into any one subject without related job experience. They cost money and time, and without the experience, you may be regard as a "paper" <insert certification here>. Many of the tests are suited to certain learning styles - for instance, when I got my MCSE, there were tales circulating on Slashdot of an 8 year old in India who had completed the MCSE as well.
On the degree perspective - a lot of this is highly dependent on the schools in your area. I don't think a CS degree would ever be the wrong move, but there may be IS degrees that suit you better. I would just be very cautious and exercise due diligence before giving any money to such a program. CS is a bit more "established" and so, while the degree of focus on theory and programming may vary between schools, there is a certain basic level of knowledge that can be expected. IS/IT degrees can vary from totally useless to exceptional. Engineering is similar to CS in that regard. I am not sure if this applies in the U.S., but here in Canada, there was some conflict between the engineering establishment and various certification providers over the use of the term "engineer". There are still effects from this here, in that for certain roles, you must be an iron ring wearing engineer in order to get hired. One option here - some universities will allow you to do "directed studies" credits in third or fourth year, and you can do certifications as part of that. A healthy CS department will also offer you opportunities to get into IT related projects that are relatively specialized and rare, particularly at the entry level. Often you will have a prof who needs some one to do basic, or not so basic, admin tasks.
This touches on a point not yet mentioned. Networking is important, and I don't mean the kind that involves computers. You should look for ways to meet people who do things you are interested in. Get on linkedin, go to industry events, etc. This opens a lot of doors. Much of the interesting work in IT is very specialized and to try to go to school with the intention of learning about the latest hot trend in technology is a waste of time, since the tech world will have changed by the time you graduate. Cultivating a good network of people in the industry will allow you to demonstrate your potential to more people, which is often more important in landing that first job.
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Yeah, the Secret was what I had first and that wasn't bad. I had went through the interview and investigation process for my TS and was waiting on that, in anticipation of promotion, when I was discharged.
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