Diablo III: Thread over, much like windup wizard

Shen

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Eleven long years after Diablo 2: Lord of Distruction, Diablo 3 is finally upon us. Diablo 3 takes place 20 years after the events of Diablo 2; to get up to speed on the story so far, the following playlist serves as a great refresher on what has taken place in the world of Sanctuary.

Spoiler:

The rest can be found here http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL517434D31A9B209F&feature=plcp

So what's different from Diablo 2? (According to this review from 2000, not much: Bulletproof Blizz)

The game is still an isometric click fest where you slaughter hundreds of demons in the enternal search for better loot, though several of the mechanics/game systems have been changed. It is now ONLINE ONLY. You can set games to be private (invite only), friends only, and open to public. With friends only games, your friends will see a quick join button on their main screens, letting them drop in any time as long as there is room. The max player size is also 4 now. Skill trees, skill points, synergies, and manual stat placement are all gone. Instead, all of your stat points (you get more than 5 now) are gained and placed automatically with each level up, with distribution based on your class. Skills are now broken into Actives and Passives, and are all gained as you level up, along with the new skill runes (see below). The potion belt is also gone, and potions themselves now have a 30 second cooldown, so no more chugging to stay alive. Instead, enemies drop Health Orbs, which simply heal you (and all your allies within range.) when you walk over them. The bigger the orb, the more it heals. Runes and Runewords are also gone, and have been replace with a proper crafting system. Hardcore makes a return, but the requires you to have one character reach level 10 in normal before you can create any Hardcore characters. And last, but not least, Hell is no longer the hardest difficulty in the game. That duty has been taken over by the Inferno difficulty, which has proved to be a worthy foe. There is plenty more info, with a lot more specifics, available at the official community sites game guide, which currently serves as Diablo 3s Mount Arreat. You can find a skill calculator there as well.

The Classes

The Barbarian, aka The Wayfarer


The Demon Hunter, fueled by Hatred and Discipline


The Monk, Unyielding in the service of Ivgorod


The Witch Doctor, aka the Doubtwalker


And last but not least, the prodigious Wizard


The Interface

Spoiler:

The potion belt has been replaced with a new action bar. Keys 1 - 4 (or whatever you decide to rebind them to, if you wish) are now assigned to skills, giving you a total of 6 active skills. Q is dedicated potion button. Town Portal scrolls are gone, and the spell is now available to every as an early quest reward that shows up on your bottom bar as well. The stat screen has also been much improved, providing a ton of information on almost every stat you could want.

Skills and Skill Runes

Spoiler:

As mentioned before, skills are now broken down into active and passive skills, and are unlocked in a predetermined order as you level. The slots for these skills also unlock as you go, with active skill slots opening up at levels 1, 2, 4, 9, 14, and 19, and passives at 10, 20, and 30. This allows for a max of 6 active and 3 passive skills in play at a time, which you can swap and change around, with a cooldown, at any time. (Think something like Guild Wars.) Damage for all skills is now calculated based off your weapon damage. This includes spells for the casters.

Skill Runes start unlocking at level 6, and change the way your skills work. Some simply improve already existing aspects, such as increasing damage or how much it slows, while others have more drastic effects. For example, the following screens are both of the Ray of Frost skill:

Skill ranges are all calculated in yards. Here is a handy distance map to better inform you of how far you or your attacks will travel.

Spoiler:

Crafting and the Artisans

Spoiler:

Crafting in game is done via the two Artisans, the Blacksmith and the Jewler. These guys are unlocked through quests early on, and follow you around for the rest of the game. Both Artisans can be leveled up to grant access to better recipes. (The level of the Artisan is retained across all characters.) This costs gold and, later on, pages of training. Leveling them up also improves their appearance in game, making their wagons and crafting areas more impressive.

The Blacksmith
Crafts weapons and armor, as well as salvage any items (magic and higher) into the materials needed for you to craft anything.

The Jeweler
Can add sockets to items, add or remove gems from items, and combine 3 gems of the same level into one gem of the next higher level.


(As a side note, there were originally 3 Artisans. The Mystic, who was removed during development, would enchant your gear. Blizzard has implied that she will most likely come back down the road, probably in an expansion.)

Followers

Spoiler:

Followers are essentially the new mercs. This time around, they are specific, story driven characters that join your quest as the game progresses. Each one has their own story, background, and distinct personality. Gameplay wise, they each fill a different roll in combat, can be equipped with a main and off hand weapon, two rings, and an amulet, and will level up along side you. At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, they unlock a new teir of skills. Each tier has two skills, and you choose one of them. You can respec them, free of charge. At level 25 they gain acceess to a class-specific gear slot. They also get 20% of the Magic or Gold Find from gear, which is applied to your total while they are active. You can only have 1 follower active at a time, and only while playing solo. If someone joins your game while you have a follower active, they will simply salute you and head back to town.

The three Followers are:

Kormac, the Templar.
The tank. Doesn't deal out much damage, but serves as an excellent meat sheild. Can use shields, one-handed axes, daggers, one-handed maces, one-handed spears, one-handed swords, and the Templar specific relics.


Lyndon, the Scoundrel
Ranged pysical damage dealer. Can use bows, two-handed crossbows, and the Scoundrel specific Tokens. Also has an excellently-groomed mustache.


Eirena, the Enchantress
Ranged magic dealer, casts buffs and debuffs. Can use two-handed staves, two-handed swords, two-handed maces, or two-handed axes, and the Enchantress specific Focuses.

Auction Houses

Spoiler:

Diablo 3 has two different types of Auction houses available for players: the gold AH, and the Real Money AH. The gold AH is fairly straight forward, and functions largely the same as AHs found in other games, like WoW. It's available at launch to both Normal and Hardcore characters, but is exclusive between the two.

The RMAH allows you to buy and sell in game items with real world currency. The RMAH will be available approximately one week after launch. Here's quick breakdown of the specifics:

-Commodities are automatically searched for best price, and are buyout only.
-You must choose Battle.net balance or real currency when you post the auction, not when it sells.
-15% fee on cashing out
-Battle.net balance can be used for a bunch of battle.net stuff including digital games, and WoW paid services. It cannot be used to pay subscription fees.
-No RMAH in Asia at release
-RMAH comes out one week after the game.


Fees:

For Equipment (weapons, armor, accessories, and other unique items)

Transaction Fee (Gold Auction House): 15% of final sale price
Transaction Fee (Real-Money Auction House): $1.00 USD per item / $1.00 AUD per item
Transfer Fee (when sending proceeds to PayPal or other authorized payment-service provider): 15% of amount being transferred



For Commodities (gems, materials, dyes, pages, recipes, and other non-unique items)

Transaction Fee (Gold Auction House): 15% of final sale price
Transaction Fee (Real-Money Auction House): 15% of final sale price
Transfer Fee (when sending proceeds to PayPal or other authorized payment-service provider): 15% of amount being transferred

For a more indepth how-to, please go here http://us.battle.net/d3/en/services/auction-house/how-to

Useful tools:

Game guide: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/game/
Skill calculator: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian
EHP calculator: http://rubensayshi.github.com/d3-ehp-calculator/#intro
Damage calculator: http://theasiangamer.com/2012/06/diablo-iii-damage-calculator-now-online/
Max values on items: http://www.d3rmt.com/guides/diablo-3-item-stat-maximum-values/
Blue tracker: http://d3db.com/blue/browse
Gem calculator: http://diablo-3-gem-calculator.com/index.php

Class guides:
Monk: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4211087360
(Will add any that are recommended)

Kroyd_Krenson

Could any witch doctors share their Inferno viable builds? I'm struggling in act 2 with 30k health, 30k DPS and about 300 resist all.

_J_

Might sell.

Honk

_J_ wrote: »

Might sell.

@ me what you get for them, would appreciate. I found almost exactly the same thing yesterday, but AH was down so I couldn't post them.

Shen

Is it just me or does it feel like things are hitting harder again? I'm not sure if they rebuffed Act 3 when they increased drop rates or if they reimplemented enemies dealing more damage with additional players in game, but it really feels like I'm a lot squishier again

On the plus side, bought a weapon (for 27 million...) to bring me up to 34k dps, as its innate 588 LoH let me switch the amethysts in my weapons for emeralds. Still doing garbage dps compared to other classes at the same gear level, but them's the breaks.

Xeddicus

i don't know about things hitting harder, but I can almost swear they have turned down my personal decent drop rate. It's practically the only explanation for this mountain of mostly total crap I keep finding!...

AnteCantelope

Kroyd_Krenson wrote: »

Could any witch doctors share their Inferno viable builds? I'm struggling in act 2 with 30k health, 30k DPS and about 300 resist all.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#afUQdP!WVU!acabZb

1885 Int, 3K armour, 32K damage, 350-400 resist all, 30K health, 500 LoH.

I use fetish army and voodoo whenever they're available, then pop spirit walk, run into the middle of a pack of enemies and use soul harvest, then move back a bit into a position to spam zombie bears over as many enemies as possible. Splinters whenever it's not worth the effort of setting up VQ, so for single enemies or when I'm saving fetish and voodoo for an elite pack. I've been playing with Tofy, who has a strong tanky barb, which helps a lot, but I can easily run Act 1 solo in MF gear, I would probably be ok in Act 2 solo with my optimal gear.

I also struggled a bit in Act 2, mostly because there are so many quick small enemies everywhere that it's impossible to avoid being hit a little. Act 3 has actually been a little easier for me so far.

KoopahTroopah

So, everyone is switching to MF gear now? I haven't played since the hotfix came out. Been tackling my backlog.

Kroyd_Krenson

AnteCantelope wrote: »

Kroyd_Krenson wrote: »

Could any witch doctors share their Inferno viable builds? I'm struggling in act 2 with 30k health, 30k DPS and about 300 resist all.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#afUQdP!WVU!acabZb

1885 Int, 3K armour, 32K damage, 350-400 resist all, 30K health, 500 LoH.

I use fetish army and voodoo whenever they're available, then pop spirit walk, run into the middle of a pack of enemies and use soul harvest, then move back a bit into a position to spam zombie bears over as many enemies as possible. Splinters whenever it's not worth the effort of setting up VQ, so for single enemies or when I'm saving fetish and voodoo for an elite pack. I've been playing with Tofy, who has a strong tanky barb, which helps a lot, but I can easily run Act 1 solo in MF gear, I would probably be ok in Act 2 solo with my optimal gear.

I also struggled a bit in Act 2, mostly because there are so many quick small enemies everywhere that it's impossible to avoid being hit a little. Act 3 has actually been a little easier for me so far.

That is kind of comforting, to hear Act 3 is not a huge leap in difficulty like Act 2 was. I tried a zombie bears build but died too much, currently running with Hex, Spirit walk and Soul harvest as supporting skills and the two DoT's (Locust and Haunt) as main damage dealers while I try to kite and use splinters. I am making some progress but it seems slow as hell. Maybe I should try upping my resists and armor to be closer to the numbers you list.

AnteCantelope

I spent around 2 mil on my weapon and one other piece, and the rest are just 10K-100K, and I cleared Act 1 and most of 2 spending about 100K. It's not terribly expensive, at least compared to some other builds I've seen.

Act 3 seems a little more difficult numbers-wise, enemies have a lot of health and seem to do a lot of damage (I'm basing this on the fact that Tofy's barb died more than in act 2), but they're slower and have less range, so it's easier to line em up and knock em down.

Speaking of which, a while ago I got a '10 enemies killed with a single blow' callout and my WD said "A perfect strike", which I enjoyed.

mato-andrew

AnteCantelope wrote: »

I spent around 2 mil on my weapon and one other piece, and the rest are just 10K-100K, and I cleared Act 1 and most of 2 spending about 100K. It's not terribly expensive, at least compared to some other builds I've seen.

Act 3 seems a little more difficult numbers-wise, enemies have a lot of health and seem to do a lot of damage (I'm basing this on the fact that Tofy's barb died more than in act 2), but they're slower and have less range, so it's easier to line em up and knock em down.

Speaking of which, a while ago I got a '10 enemies killed with a single blow' callout and my WD said "A perfect strike", which I enjoyed.

You get an achievement for killing 30+ (I think that's the number) in a single blow, or single-blow-equivalent.

AnteCantelope

mato-andrew wrote: »

AnteCantelope wrote: »

I spent around 2 mil on my weapon and one other piece, and the rest are just 10K-100K, and I cleared Act 1 and most of 2 spending about 100K. It's not terribly expensive, at least compared to some other builds I've seen.

Act 3 seems a little more difficult numbers-wise, enemies have a lot of health and seem to do a lot of damage (I'm basing this on the fact that Tofy's barb died more than in act 2), but they're slower and have less range, so it's easier to line em up and knock em down.

Speaking of which, a while ago I got a '10 enemies killed with a single blow' callout and my WD said "A perfect strike", which I enjoyed.

You get an achievement for killing 30+ (I think that's the number) in a single blow, or single-blow-equivalent.

Oh, I know that, what I mean is that knocking down 10 enemies at once was 'a perfect strike'.

Spoiler:

Lanrutcon

This just in: Act 3 Inferno is still as much fun as experiencing root canal in a country-western bar.

You may now continue with your daily...stuff.

mato-andrew

Lanrutcon wrote: »

This just in: Act 3 Inferno is still as much fun as experiencing root canal in a country-western bar.

You may now continue with your daily...stuff.

My monk is currently geared well enough to have Act 3 on farm. Yet, I'm still farming Act 1, every night. Why? A few reasons:

1) Monsters in Act 2 and 3 have significantly more HP than those in Act 1. Even with impressive damage numbers (I'm feeling my Wheaties at 22k listed on my monk) it still takes an absurd amount of time to kill a champ/elite. This might be mitigated slightly with a different build, but it's still a huge hindrance. Overall, I expect any given champ encounter in Act 3 to take roughly 5-10 minutes each, and significantly more for certain monster/affix combinations (Shielding Nightmarish Waller Extra Health wyverns, for example).

2) Monsters in Act 2 and 3 run away from melee significantly more than Act 1. Only a handful of monster types in Act 1 will actively flee melee. Act 2 and 3? Seems like 40-50% of monster types flee. This "small" behavior difference alone has a huge impact on my drops/minute.

3) Monsters in Act 2 and 3 have much more difficult to predict spawning locations. In Act 1, I always know the location of no less than 5-7 champion/boss packs, and I'll frequently meet with more than that with just random boss/champ packs dropped randomly as well. Act 2 and 3 have much less easy to predict spawn locations.

4) Bosses in Act 2 and 3 are significantly more difficult and time consuming to kill. Ghom is the most difficult boss in the game for my monk right now, and only beatable for me with a few build types - and even then, they're builds that would get me killed farming. He's completely unfarmable. Siegebreaker is doable, but he still takes a much greater amount of time than say, Zultan Kulle or the Butcher. Rakanoth is fun, but can still insta-gib me if I'm not careful, and it's not at all guaranteed to have 5 stacks by the time I reach him. Diablo is, of course, a night-long time investment to kill.

Overall, I expect more 61+ drops/minute with Act 1 than I do any other act. Maybe at some point of gearing, the scales will tip again, but for now, even for an appropriately geared character, it's just a completely unnecessary pain.

Lanrutcon

Let me sum up my latest attempt to finish Act 3 as a pretty well geared hybrid DH:

First level of the first tower! aces! Bring it, demon bitches! ...wait...blue phasebeasts? at the bottom of the staircase from the level entrance? let's see what they can do....fast...vortex....waller...desecrate. Hmmm one screen to kite in against teleporting baddies that 3 shot me? and can teleport me? and lock me in walls? What the hell, let's give it a whirl. My stats are pretty decent.

<11 deaths later>

So this fight is impossible for a DH. Good to know.

Until every enemy in Act 3/4 Inferno drops level 60 gear minimum, I'll be doing 1 hour full Act I clears thank you very much.

3lwap0

So I finally hit the Act 2 wall in Inferno.

I ended up going with a Barb and Wizard. The Barb was well geared, but the Wizard and I were still on Act 1 gear. We were slaughtered for the duration of our very brief stay in Act 2. My resists are around 300, and my unmodified DH DPS is 27k (42k with Sharp Shooter). I just couldn't burn down these mobs fast enough - granted, we were in a party, so everything is tougher, I get it. But...I was just ineffectual. Especially against champs and bosses.

So what's the catch? More DPS? I have a 935 DPS Crossbow. Should I opt for two 700+ DPS hand xbows? Maybe go for a 1.1k DPS two handed bow? Because right now, I have no solutions. I have maybe 1.5 mil in the bank, and before I sink all my gold on a weapon, I need to know that it's the right investment.

Because right now, I just have no clue how to improve.

mato-andrew

3lwap0 wrote: »

So I finally hit the Act 2 wall in Inferno.

I ended up going with a Barb and Wizard. The Barb was well geared, but the Wizard and I were still on Act 1 gear. We were slaughtered for the duration of our very brief stay in Act 2. My resists are around 300, and my unmodified DH DPS is 27k (42k with Sharp Shooter). I just couldn't burn down these mobs fast enough - granted, we were in a party, so everything is tougher, I get it. But...I was just ineffectual. Especially against champs and bosses.

So what's the catch? More DPS? I have a 935 DPS Crossbow. Should I opt for two 700+ DPS hand xbows? Maybe go for a 1.1k DPS two handed bow? Because right now, I have no solutions. I have maybe 1.5 mil in the bank, and before I sink all my gold on a weapon, I need to know that it's the right investment.

Because right now, I just have no clue how to improve.

I cruised through Inferno before the attack speed nerf on my DH with a 1.1k dps bow. The key for DH is crit damage. Crit damage is god. With about 190% crit damage, I'm up to about 90k dps with SS. Get crit where you can, but crit damage is really the key. I had significantly more resists than you though, I won't even enter inferno on any character with less than 500. Still, with even a little more than 600, my DH *was* getting 1-shot. Since the attack speed nerf though, I haven't picked the DH back up at all. The gameplay doesn't feel right to me anymore.

Lanrutcon

mato-andrew wrote: »

3lwap0 wrote: »

So I finally hit the Act 2 wall in Inferno.

I ended up going with a Barb and Wizard. The Barb was well geared, but the Wizard and I were still on Act 1 gear. We were slaughtered for the duration of our very brief stay in Act 2. My resists are around 300, and my unmodified DH DPS is 27k (42k with Sharp Shooter). I just couldn't burn down these mobs fast enough - granted, we were in a party, so everything is tougher, I get it. But...I was just ineffectual. Especially against champs and bosses.

So what's the catch? More DPS? I have a 935 DPS Crossbow. Should I opt for two 700+ DPS hand xbows? Maybe go for a 1.1k DPS two handed bow? Because right now, I have no solutions. I have maybe 1.5 mil in the bank, and before I sink all my gold on a weapon, I need to know that it's the right investment.

Because right now, I just have no clue how to improve.

I cruised through Inferno before the attack speed nerf on my DH with a 1.1k dps bow. The key for DH is crit damage. Crit damage is god. With abotu 190% crit damage, I'm up to about 90k dps with SS. Get crit where you can, but crit damage is really the key. I had significantly more resists than you though, I won't even enter inferno on any character with less than 500. Still, with even a little more than 600, my DH *was* getting 1-shot. Since the attack speed nerf though, I haven't picked the DH back up at all. The gameplay doesn't feel right to me anymore.

I'd offer this advice: get a bow, not a crossbow. Run 3 dps passives (archery, SS, steady aim...cookiecutter). Use cluster arrow + loaded for bear as your secondary. Get +crit damage/+crit chance gear at the expense of defensive stats (for group play).

I'm pulling 44k dps before SS with a 1022 damage +dex bow I bought for 700,000 gold. It sounds like your armor needs work, not your weapon? What's your dex?

mato-andrew

Lanrutcon wrote: »

mato-andrew wrote: »

3lwap0 wrote: »

So I finally hit the Act 2 wall in Inferno.

I ended up going with a Barb and Wizard. The Barb was well geared, but the Wizard and I were still on Act 1 gear. We were slaughtered for the duration of our very brief stay in Act 2. My resists are around 300, and my unmodified DH DPS is 27k (42k with Sharp Shooter). I just couldn't burn down these mobs fast enough - granted, we were in a party, so everything is tougher, I get it. But...I was just ineffectual. Especially against champs and bosses.

So what's the catch? More DPS? I have a 935 DPS Crossbow. Should I opt for two 700+ DPS hand xbows? Maybe go for a 1.1k DPS two handed bow? Because right now, I have no solutions. I have maybe 1.5 mil in the bank, and before I sink all my gold on a weapon, I need to know that it's the right investment.

Because right now, I just have no clue how to improve.

I cruised through Inferno before the attack speed nerf on my DH with a 1.1k dps bow. The key for DH is crit damage. Crit damage is god. With abotu 190% crit damage, I'm up to about 90k dps with SS. Get crit where you can, but crit damage is really the key. I had significantly more resists than you though, I won't even enter inferno on any character with less than 500. Still, with even a little more than 600, my DH *was* getting 1-shot. Since the attack speed nerf though, I haven't picked the DH back up at all. The gameplay doesn't feel right to me anymore.

I'd offer this advice: get a bow, not a crossbow. Run 3 dps passives (archery, SS, steady aim...cookiecutter). Use cluster arrow + loaded for bear as your secondary. Get +crit damage/+crit chance gear at the expense of defensive stats (for group play).

I'm pulling 44k dps before SS with a 1022 damage +dex bow I bought for 700,000 gold. It sounds like your armor needs work, not your weapon? What's your dex?

I think you're quoting the wrong guy. I'm not particularly inclined to picking my DH back up. Gameplay is too slow now.

Though, I agree with your suggestions! In addition, I think for every DH going through inferno, Caltrops + Torturous Ground is basically a required skill, somewhat like Smoke Screen. I also have had so many occasions where Shadow Power + Gloom has literally made a boss possible that otherwise would not be possible.

3lwap0

Lanrutcon wrote: »

mato-andrew wrote: »

3lwap0 wrote: »

So I finally hit the Act 2 wall in Inferno.

I ended up going with a Barb and Wizard. The Barb was well geared, but the Wizard and I were still on Act 1 gear. We were slaughtered for the duration of our very brief stay in Act 2. My resists are around 300, and my unmodified DH DPS is 27k (42k with Sharp Shooter). I just couldn't burn down these mobs fast enough - granted, we were in a party, so everything is tougher, I get it. But...I was just ineffectual. Especially against champs and bosses.

So what's the catch? More DPS? I have a 935 DPS Crossbow. Should I opt for two 700+ DPS hand xbows? Maybe go for a 1.1k DPS two handed bow? Because right now, I have no solutions. I have maybe 1.5 mil in the bank, and before I sink all my gold on a weapon, I need to know that it's the right investment.

Because right now, I just have no clue how to improve.

I cruised through Inferno before the attack speed nerf on my DH with a 1.1k dps bow. The key for DH is crit damage. Crit damage is god. With abotu 190% crit damage, I'm up to about 90k dps with SS. Get crit where you can, but crit damage is really the key. I had significantly more resists than you though, I won't even enter inferno on any character with less than 500. Still, with even a little more than 600, my DH *was* getting 1-shot. Since the attack speed nerf though, I haven't picked the DH back up at all. The gameplay doesn't feel right to me anymore.

I'd offer this advice: get a bow, not a crossbow. Run 3 dps passives (archery, SS, steady aim...cookiecutter). Use cluster arrow + loaded for bear as your secondary. Get +crit damage/+crit chance gear at the expense of defensive stats (for group play).

I'm pulling 44k dps before SS with a 1022 damage +dex bow I bought for 700,000 gold. It sounds like your armor needs work, not your weapon? What's your dex?

I'll post my stats up tonight, once I get home. My dex is fairly decent (1200-1400?) but may not be enough to hack it. I'll be able to provide a better report later.

It also could be a skill issue. For some reason, I've been using Impale lately, with the last brutal damage rune. When it crits, it's mind blowing damage (more so with Sharpshooter). But it's not very hatred efficient. I typically run Hungering Arrow and Frost Arrow as my secondary. I can concede there may be better options, but my unmodified crit is around 22% without SS.

I also tried to switch from vault to smokescreen, and I just couldn't. I'm too good with vault - I can drop a caltrop and vault at the same time. I use the rune that makes vault cheaper if you perform multiple vaults (I can do about 6 before I'm out of discipline).

Lanrutcon

This is what I run for group play: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#aPYVXj!YeT!acZbZY

Your dex is a tiny bit below average, tbh. If you're glass cannon-ing around you should be packing more. If you like the damage on Impale you're gonna love Cluster Arrows. Vault is a harsh mistress, and I can totally see people using it over Caltrops (I'm a huge supporter of Caltrops, personally)...but Vault over Smoke Screen? You should try and become familiar with Smoke Screen, it's the single best defensive tool Demon Hunters have. Without it you're going to suffer a great deal as you get further into Inferno.

mato-andrew

Lanrutcon wrote: »

This is what I run for group play: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#aPYVXj!YeT!acZbZY

Your dex is a tiny bit below average, tbh. If you're glass cannon-ing around you should be packing more. If you like the damage on Impale you're gonna love Cluster Arrows. Vault is a harsh mistress, and I can totally see people using it over Caltrops (I'm a huge supporter of Caltrops, personally)...but Vault over Smoke Screen? You should try and become familiar with Smoke Screen, it's the single best defensive tool Demon Hunters have. Without it you're going to suffer a great deal as you get further into Inferno.

Smoke Screen is amazing, but it's so painful for me to use. I hate having Smoke Screen on my bar on my DH much like I hate having Serenity on my bar on my Monk. Using it (and therefore, justifying having it) means that I've failed somehow in controlling the monsters I'm facing, or that I'm otherwise not quite geared for the content I'm up against. I love it, but I hate it, and I need it, and I can't get rid of it.

ON AN UNRELATED NOTE: RANGED BARBS ARE HILARIOUSLY FUN. XD

Lanrutcon

mato-andrew wrote: »

Lanrutcon wrote: »

This is what I run for group play: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#aPYVXj!YeT!acZbZY

Your dex is a tiny bit below average, tbh. If you're glass cannon-ing around you should be packing more. If you like the damage on Impale you're gonna love Cluster Arrows. Vault is a harsh mistress, and I can totally see people using it over Caltrops (I'm a huge supporter of Caltrops, personally)...but Vault over Smoke Screen? You should try and become familiar with Smoke Screen, it's the single best defensive tool Demon Hunters have. Without it you're going to suffer a great deal as you get further into Inferno.

Smoke Screen is amazing, but it's so painful for me to use. I hate having Smoke Screen on my bar on my DH much like I hate having Serenity on my bar on my Monk. Using it (and therefore, justifying having it) means that I've failed somehow in controlling the monsters I'm facing, or that I'm otherwise not quite geared for the content I'm up against. I love it, but I hate it, and I need it, and I can't get rid of it.

ON AN UNRELATED NOTE: RANGED BARBS ARE HILARIOUSLY FUN. XD

How do you generate Rage as a Ranged Barb, btw? could you post your build? How do you itemize?

Jibba

If you're running with a group and you want to use Frost Arrow, should be something like this:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#fRYjXV!Yec!bZZYZb

Smokescreen, Caltrops and Prep are just so, so good. You really don't need Vault if you're playing with other people. Sharpshooter is like a 3-8% DPS boost overall for most people which is ok but not as good as the other abilities. Plus in multiplayer games, things stay alive for much longer so SS loses effectiveness since it's all about upfront damage.

Marked for Death is especially useful against champs, but you could replace it with something else.

As for your main attack, Evasive Fire is just awesome. With Frost Arrow, you can consider switching it for Hungering Arrow w/ Devouring, but in general Evasive Fire is just a great skill to use - especially solo. When people talk about DPS, they're only looking at the paperdoll and aren't looking at actual DPS. Evasive Fire is an instant hit without travel time, so its true DPS is actually higher than any of the other Hatred builders that take time to make it to their target.

The problem with Loaded for Bear is that it doesn't do anything particularly well. It's got good damage, no doubt, but its damage per hatred is much, much lower than any of the Elemental Arrow attacks because you'll never hit a target with more than one or two of the grenades. I would either go with one of the Elemental Arrow variants or Razor Disc chakram, or if you're really dedicated to blowing the shit out of champions, get Cluster Bombs (w/ Grenadier passive.)

mato-andrew

Lanrutcon wrote: »

mato-andrew wrote: »

Lanrutcon wrote: »

This is what I run for group play: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#aPYVXj!YeT!acZbZY

Your dex is a tiny bit below average, tbh. If you're glass cannon-ing around you should be packing more. If you like the damage on Impale you're gonna love Cluster Arrows. Vault is a harsh mistress, and I can totally see people using it over Caltrops (I'm a huge supporter of Caltrops, personally)...but Vault over Smoke Screen? You should try and become familiar with Smoke Screen, it's the single best defensive tool Demon Hunters have. Without it you're going to suffer a great deal as you get further into Inferno.

Smoke Screen is amazing, but it's so painful for me to use. I hate having Smoke Screen on my bar on my DH much like I hate having Serenity on my bar on my Monk. Using it (and therefore, justifying having it) means that I've failed somehow in controlling the monsters I'm facing, or that I'm otherwise not quite geared for the content I'm up against. I love it, but I hate it, and I need it, and I can't get rid of it.

ON AN UNRELATED NOTE: RANGED BARBS ARE HILARIOUSLY FUN. XD

How do you generate Rage as a Ranged Barb, btw? could you post your build? How do you itemize?

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#WkdfiP!Zf!cccZYZ

It's actually really easy to itemize. You want crit and crit damage, and then normal barb gear. My barb currently runs with roughly 23k damage (using a 1k dps 2hander with 60% crit damage and 900ish LoH that I got for like, 200k. It's really too good), 30-35%ish crit, and about 250 crit damage. Using this build, Ancient Spear crits for over 300k with WotB.

Also, having a mighty belt with -3 to rage cost for Weapon Throw is really helpful as well (but not required, I did it without one).

Lanrutcon

Jibba wrote: »

If you're running with a group and you want to use Frost Arrow, should be something like this:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#fRYjXV!Yec!bZZYZb

Smokescreen, Caltrops and Prep are just so, so good. You really don't need Vault if you're playing with other people. Sharpshooter is like a 3-8% DPS boost overall for most people which is ok but not as good as the other abilities. Plus in multiplayer games, things stay alive for much longer so SS loses effectiveness since it's all about upfront damage.

Marked for Death is especially useful against champs, but you could replace it with something else.

As for your main attack, Evasive Fire is just awesome. With Frost Arrow, you can consider switching it for Hungering Arrow w/ Devouring, but in general Evasive Fire is just a great skill to use - especially solo. When people talk about DPS, they're only looking at the paperdoll and aren't looking at actual DPS. Evasive Fire is an instant hit without travel time, so its true DPS is actually higher than any of the other Hatred builders that take time to make it to their target.

The problem with Loaded for Bear is that it doesn't do anything particularly well. It's got good damage, no doubt, but its damage per hatred is much, much lower than any of the Elemental Arrow attacks because you'll never hit a target with more than one or two of the grenades. I would either go with one of the Elemental Arrow variants or Razor Disc chakram, or if you're really dedicated to blowing the shit out of champions, get Cluster Bombs (w/ Grenadier passive.)

Gonna disagree on a few points there: for single target damage, Evasive Fire is worse the Hungering arrow (35% base chance to do double damage, before you even add a rune). The travel time is mitigated by the fact that the arrows will auto-correct in flight to almost assure that almost every arrow hits. The math is pretty clearcut on it, hence everyone toting Devouring as the cookiecutter choice for glass cannons.

The idea with Cluster Arrow is that you're going to spend your time kiting in Inferno. You'll have very little 'shooty' time when you're dodging a pack of rare Shamans or flying dinosaurs in Act 3, so you need that maximize that one shot you get every now and then while weaving between fireballs. That one shot is Cluster Arrow with Loaded for Bear. It's the freight train of burst damage. SS is worshipped for the same thing: the moment you start damaging an enemy the kiting will start, so what better way to open than by doing so at 100% crit rate? SS will tick up during the seconds you spend kiting, so it's not even a total waste during a long fight (and it grants 6% crit base due to what is believed to be a bug).

If you're going to stand still and wail on something then sure, SS is a waste, but trust me: you won't be standing still a lot.

Sensational

Lanrutcon wrote: »

Let me sum up my latest attempt to finish Act 3 as a pretty well geared hybrid DH:

First level of the first tower! aces! Bring it, demon bitches! ...wait...blue phasebeasts? at the bottom of the staircase from the level entrance? let's see what they can do....fast...vortex....waller...desecrate. Hmmm one screen to kite in against teleporting baddies that 3 shot me? and can teleport me? and lock me in walls? What the hell, let's give it a whirl. My stats are pretty decent.

<11 deaths later>

So this fight is impossible for a DH. Good to know.

Until every enemy in Act 3/4 Inferno drops level 60 gear minimum, I'll be doing 1 hour full Act I clears thank you very much.

Bottom of the stairs can be workable, I stand by the exit and juke in and out, going in when I have enough discipline for SS, taking a few pot shots then jumping out to regen/wait for prep.

Jibba

Lanrutcon wrote: »

Jibba wrote: »

If you're running with a group and you want to use Frost Arrow, should be something like this:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#fRYjXV!Yec!bZZYZb

Smokescreen, Caltrops and Prep are just so, so good. You really don't need Vault if you're playing with other people. Sharpshooter is like a 3-8% DPS boost overall for most people which is ok but not as good as the other abilities. Plus in multiplayer games, things stay alive for much longer so SS loses effectiveness since it's all about upfront damage.

Marked for Death is especially useful against champs, but you could replace it with something else.

As for your main attack, Evasive Fire is just awesome. With Frost Arrow, you can consider switching it for Hungering Arrow w/ Devouring, but in general Evasive Fire is just a great skill to use - especially solo. When people talk about DPS, they're only looking at the paperdoll and aren't looking at actual DPS. Evasive Fire is an instant hit without travel time, so its true DPS is actually higher than any of the other Hatred builders that take time to make it to their target.

The problem with Loaded for Bear is that it doesn't do anything particularly well. It's got good damage, no doubt, but its damage per hatred is much, much lower than any of the Elemental Arrow attacks because you'll never hit a target with more than one or two of the grenades. I would either go with one of the Elemental Arrow variants or Razor Disc chakram, or if you're really dedicated to blowing the shit out of champions, get Cluster Bombs (w/ Grenadier passive.)

Gonna disagree on a few points there: for single target damage, Evasive Fire is worse the Hungering arrow (35% base chance to do double damage, before you even add a rune). The travel time is mitigated by the fact that the arrows will auto-correct in flight to almost assure that almost every arrow hits. The math is pretty clearcut on it, hence everyone toting Devouring as the cookiecutter choice for glass cannons.

No, it's not mitigated by it. When you have 3 or more targets on the screen, Evasive Fire will do more damage than every HA shot except Exploding Teeth. Even on single targets, the advantage of HA w/ Devouring is lessened because the arrow takes so long. I can fire 2 Evasive Shots before a HA hits, and most trash is dead by then. The math is based on paper doll DPS. It is not based on an actual simulation, where Evasive Shot autotargets and instahits 3 things at a time.

The idea with Cluster Arrow is that you're going to spend your time kiting in Inferno. You'll have very little 'shooty' time when you're dodging a pack of rare Shamans or flying dinosaurs in Act 3, so you need that maximize that one shot you get every now and then while weaving between fireballs. That one shot is Cluster Arrow with Loaded for Bear. It's the freight train of burst damage.

The damage of LFB doesn't come close to Cluster Bombs. Nothing in the game does. It's harder to aim, but it makes up for it when you demolish a champion pack stuck in Caltrops. And there really isn't that much kiting needed anymore. The range of Ball Lightning and others are so big that you can spam them all over the place to kill champions on the bridge and fortress in A3.

Your overall damage is severely limited by using LFB because individually it doesn't hit significantly harder than a Ball Lightning hitting twice, but you still have the huge hatred penalty. Cluster Bombs shares the hatred penalty, but when you're hitting for a million at a time it doesn't matter so much.

To me, kiting seems so passe. I'd rather just have things die when I look at them.

mato-andrew

mato-andrew wrote: »

Lanrutcon wrote: »

mato-andrew wrote: »

Lanrutcon wrote: »

This is what I run for group play: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#aPYVXj!YeT!acZbZY

Your dex is a tiny bit below average, tbh. If you're glass cannon-ing around you should be packing more. If you like the damage on Impale you're gonna love Cluster Arrows. Vault is a harsh mistress, and I can totally see people using it over Caltrops (I'm a huge supporter of Caltrops, personally)...but Vault over Smoke Screen? You should try and become familiar with Smoke Screen, it's the single best defensive tool Demon Hunters have. Without it you're going to suffer a great deal as you get further into Inferno.

Smoke Screen is amazing, but it's so painful for me to use. I hate having Smoke Screen on my bar on my DH much like I hate having Serenity on my bar on my Monk. Using it (and therefore, justifying having it) means that I've failed somehow in controlling the monsters I'm facing, or that I'm otherwise not quite geared for the content I'm up against. I love it, but I hate it, and I need it, and I can't get rid of it.

ON AN UNRELATED NOTE: RANGED BARBS ARE HILARIOUSLY FUN. XD

How do you generate Rage as a Ranged Barb, btw? could you post your build? How do you itemize?

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#WkdfiP!Zf!cccZYZ

It's actually really easy to itemize. You want crit and crit damage, and then normal barb gear. My barb currently runs with roughly 23k damage (using a 1k dps 2hander with 60% crit damage and 900ish LoH that I got for like, 200k. It's really too good), 30-35%ish crit, and about 250 crit damage. Using this build, Ancient Spear crits for over 300k with WotB.

Lanrutcon wrote: »

mato-andrew wrote: »

Lanrutcon wrote: »

This is what I run for group play: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#aPYVXj!YeT!acZbZY

Your dex is a tiny bit below average, tbh. If you're glass cannon-ing around you should be packing more. If you like the damage on Impale you're gonna love Cluster Arrows. Vault is a harsh mistress, and I can totally see people using it over Caltrops (I'm a huge supporter of Caltrops, personally)...but Vault over Smoke Screen? You should try and become familiar with Smoke Screen, it's the single best defensive tool Demon Hunters have. Without it you're going to suffer a great deal as you get further into Inferno.

Smoke Screen is amazing, but it's so painful for me to use. I hate having Smoke Screen on my bar on my DH much like I hate having Serenity on my bar on my Monk. Using it (and therefore, justifying having it) means that I've failed somehow in controlling the monsters I'm facing, or that I'm otherwise not quite geared for the content I'm up against. I love it, but I hate it, and I need it, and I can't get rid of it.

ON AN UNRELATED NOTE: RANGED BARBS ARE HILARIOUSLY FUN. XD

How do you generate Rage as a Ranged Barb, btw? could you post your build? How do you itemize?

A couple of things about that build I posted:

Rage is generated via the multiple hits of Weapon Throw + Ricochet, keeping Ancient Spear on cooldown and keeping Battle Rage + Into the Fray up. Basically, your constant hits will keep you more than filled with rage. Builds that I've seen successfully use Leap instead of Frenzy, but I like having Frenzy for breaking pots and for artificially increasing the size of my Ancient Spear crits. XD

mato-andrew

Jibba wrote: »

Lanrutcon wrote: »

Jibba wrote: »

If you're running with a group and you want to use Frost Arrow, should be something like this:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#fRYjXV!Yec!bZZYZb

Smokescreen, Caltrops and Prep are just so, so good. You really don't need Vault if you're playing with other people. Sharpshooter is like a 3-8% DPS boost overall for most people which is ok but not as good as the other abilities. Plus in multiplayer games, things stay alive for much longer so SS loses effectiveness since it's all about upfront damage.

Marked for Death is especially useful against champs, but you could replace it with something else.

As for your main attack, Evasive Fire is just awesome. With Frost Arrow, you can consider switching it for Hungering Arrow w/ Devouring, but in general Evasive Fire is just a great skill to use - especially solo. When people talk about DPS, they're only looking at the paperdoll and aren't looking at actual DPS. Evasive Fire is an instant hit without travel time, so its true DPS is actually higher than any of the other Hatred builders that take time to make it to their target.

The problem with Loaded for Bear is that it doesn't do anything particularly well. It's got good damage, no doubt, but its damage per hatred is much, much lower than any of the Elemental Arrow attacks because you'll never hit a target with more than one or two of the grenades. I would either go with one of the Elemental Arrow variants or Razor Disc chakram, or if you're really dedicated to blowing the shit out of champions, get Cluster Bombs (w/ Grenadier passive.)

Gonna disagree on a few points there: for single target damage, Evasive Fire is worse the Hungering arrow (35% base chance to do double damage, before you even add a rune). The travel time is mitigated by the fact that the arrows will auto-correct in flight to almost assure that almost every arrow hits. The math is pretty clearcut on it, hence everyone toting Devouring as the cookiecutter choice for glass cannons.

No, it's not mitigated by it. When you have 3 or more targets on the screen, Evasive Fire will do more damage than every HA shot except Exploding Teeth. Even on single targets, the advantage of HA w/ Devouring is lessened because the arrow takes so long. I can fire 2 Evasive Shots before a HA hits, and most trash is dead by then. The math is based on paper doll DPS. It is not based on an actual simulation, where Evasive Shot autotargets and instahits 3 things at a time.

The idea with Cluster Arrow is that you're going to spend your time kiting in Inferno. You'll have very little 'shooty' time when you're dodging a pack of rare Shamans or flying dinosaurs in Act 3, so you need that maximize that one shot you get every now and then while weaving between fireballs. That one shot is Cluster Arrow with Loaded for Bear. It's the freight train of burst damage.

The damage of LFB doesn't come close to Cluster Bombs. Nothing in the game does. It's harder to aim, but it makes up for it when you demolish a champion pack stuck in Caltrops. And there really isn't that much kiting needed anymore. The range of Ball Lightning and others are so big that you can spam them all over the place to kill champions on the bridge and fortress in A3.

Your overall damage is severely limited by using LFB because individually it doesn't hit significantly harder than a Ball Lightning hitting twice, but you still have the huge hatred penalty. Cluster Bombs shares the hatred penalty, but when you're hitting for a million at a time it doesn't matter so much.

How do you get over Cluster Bomb's range? I tried that for a while after watching Athene abuse it, and I couldn't make it work. You need some pretty absurd defenses to stay alive long enough to hurt that hard.

Jibba

mato-andrew wrote: »

Jibba wrote: »

Lanrutcon wrote: »

Jibba wrote: »

If you're running with a group and you want to use Frost Arrow, should be something like this:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#fRYjXV!Yec!bZZYZb

Smokescreen, Caltrops and Prep are just so, so good. You really don't need Vault if you're playing with other people. Sharpshooter is like a 3-8% DPS boost overall for most people which is ok but not as good as the other abilities. Plus in multiplayer games, things stay alive for much longer so SS loses effectiveness since it's all about upfront damage.

Marked for Death is especially useful against champs, but you could replace it with something else.

As for your main attack, Evasive Fire is just awesome. With Frost Arrow, you can consider switching it for Hungering Arrow w/ Devouring, but in general Evasive Fire is just a great skill to use - especially solo. When people talk about DPS, they're only looking at the paperdoll and aren't looking at actual DPS. Evasive Fire is an instant hit without travel time, so its true DPS is actually higher than any of the other Hatred builders that take time to make it to their target.

The problem with Loaded for Bear is that it doesn't do anything particularly well. It's got good damage, no doubt, but its damage per hatred is much, much lower than any of the Elemental Arrow attacks because you'll never hit a target with more than one or two of the grenades. I would either go with one of the Elemental Arrow variants or Razor Disc chakram, or if you're really dedicated to blowing the shit out of champions, get Cluster Bombs (w/ Grenadier passive.)

Gonna disagree on a few points there: for single target damage, Evasive Fire is worse the Hungering arrow (35% base chance to do double damage, before you even add a rune). The travel time is mitigated by the fact that the arrows will auto-correct in flight to almost assure that almost every arrow hits. The math is pretty clearcut on it, hence everyone toting Devouring as the cookiecutter choice for glass cannons.

No, it's not mitigated by it. When you have 3 or more targets on the screen, Evasive Fire will do more damage than every HA shot except Exploding Teeth. Even on single targets, the advantage of HA w/ Devouring is lessened because the arrow takes so long. I can fire 2 Evasive Shots before a HA hits, and most trash is dead by then. The math is based on paper doll DPS. It is not based on an actual simulation, where Evasive Shot autotargets and instahits 3 things at a time.

The idea with Cluster Arrow is that you're going to spend your time kiting in Inferno. You'll have very little 'shooty' time when you're dodging a pack of rare Shamans or flying dinosaurs in Act 3, so you need that maximize that one shot you get every now and then while weaving between fireballs. That one shot is Cluster Arrow with Loaded for Bear. It's the freight train of burst damage.

The damage of LFB doesn't come close to Cluster Bombs. Nothing in the game does. It's harder to aim, but it makes up for it when you demolish a champion pack stuck in Caltrops. And there really isn't that much kiting needed anymore. The range of Ball Lightning and others are so big that you can spam them all over the place to kill champions on the bridge and fortress in A3.

Your overall damage is severely limited by using LFB because individually it doesn't hit significantly harder than a Ball Lightning hitting twice, but you still have the huge hatred penalty. Cluster Bombs shares the hatred penalty, but when you're hitting for a million at a time it doesn't matter so much.

How do you get over Cluster Bomb's range? I tried that for a while after watching Athene abuse it, and I couldn't make it work. You need some pretty absurd defenses to stay alive long enough to hurt that hard.

It's what the caltrops are for. Also the Templar is helpful for bosses. Obviously you lose out on a lot of goodies by not having an Enchantress/Scoundrel, but when he holds Rakanoth still for 15 seconds letting you obliterate him, it's worthwhile.

Sensational

mato-andrew wrote: »

Lanrutcon wrote: »

This is what I run for group play: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#aPYVXj!YeT!acZbZY

Your dex is a tiny bit below average, tbh. If you're glass cannon-ing around you should be packing more. If you like the damage on Impale you're gonna love Cluster Arrows. Vault is a harsh mistress, and I can totally see people using it over Caltrops (I'm a huge supporter of Caltrops, personally)...but Vault over Smoke Screen? You should try and become familiar with Smoke Screen, it's the single best defensive tool Demon Hunters have. Without it you're going to suffer a great deal as you get further into Inferno.

Smoke Screen is amazing, but it's so painful for me to use. I hate having Smoke Screen on my bar on my DH much like I hate having Serenity on my bar on my Monk. Using it (and therefore, justifying having it) means that I've failed somehow in controlling the monsters I'm facing, or that I'm otherwise not quite geared for the content I'm up against. I love it, but I hate it, and I need it, and I can't get rid of it.

ON AN UNRELATED NOTE: RANGED BARBS ARE HILARIOUSLY FUN. XD

That is completely the wrong way to look at smoke screen, you're seeing it as an emergency button for when everything else fails, I see it as the base. It's such an amazing ability, you will not unlock the full power of DH until you maximize it and learn to use it all the time.

mato-andrew

Jibba wrote: »

mato-andrew wrote: »

Jibba wrote: »

Lanrutcon wrote: »

Jibba wrote: »

If you're running with a group and you want to use Frost Arrow, should be something like this:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#fRYjXV!Yec!bZZYZb

Smokescreen, Caltrops and Prep are just so, so good. You really don't need Vault if you're playing with other people. Sharpshooter is like a 3-8% DPS boost overall for most people which is ok but not as good as the other abilities. Plus in multiplayer games, things stay alive for much longer so SS loses effectiveness since it's all about upfront damage.

Marked for Death is especially useful against champs, but you could replace it with something else.

As for your main attack, Evasive Fire is just awesome. With Frost Arrow, you can consider switching it for Hungering Arrow w/ Devouring, but in general Evasive Fire is just a great skill to use - especially solo. When people talk about DPS, they're only looking at the paperdoll and aren't looking at actual DPS. Evasive Fire is an instant hit without travel time, so its true DPS is actually higher than any of the other Hatred builders that take time to make it to their target.

The problem with Loaded for Bear is that it doesn't do anything particularly well. It's got good damage, no doubt, but its damage per hatred is much, much lower than any of the Elemental Arrow attacks because you'll never hit a target with more than one or two of the grenades. I would either go with one of the Elemental Arrow variants or Razor Disc chakram, or if you're really dedicated to blowing the shit out of champions, get Cluster Bombs (w/ Grenadier passive.)

Gonna disagree on a few points there: for single target damage, Evasive Fire is worse the Hungering arrow (35% base chance to do double damage, before you even add a rune). The travel time is mitigated by the fact that the arrows will auto-correct in flight to almost assure that almost every arrow hits. The math is pretty clearcut on it, hence everyone toting Devouring as the cookiecutter choice for glass cannons.

No, it's not mitigated by it. When you have 3 or more targets on the screen, Evasive Fire will do more damage than every HA shot except Exploding Teeth. Even on single targets, the advantage of HA w/ Devouring is lessened because the arrow takes so long. I can fire 2 Evasive Shots before a HA hits, and most trash is dead by then. The math is based on paper doll DPS. It is not based on an actual simulation, where Evasive Shot autotargets and instahits 3 things at a time.

The idea with Cluster Arrow is that you're going to spend your time kiting in Inferno. You'll have very little 'shooty' time when you're dodging a pack of rare Shamans or flying dinosaurs in Act 3, so you need that maximize that one shot you get every now and then while weaving between fireballs. That one shot is Cluster Arrow with Loaded for Bear. It's the freight train of burst damage.

The damage of LFB doesn't come close to Cluster Bombs. Nothing in the game does. It's harder to aim, but it makes up for it when you demolish a champion pack stuck in Caltrops. And there really isn't that much kiting needed anymore. The range of Ball Lightning and others are so big that you can spam them all over the place to kill champions on the bridge and fortress in A3.

Your overall damage is severely limited by using LFB because individually it doesn't hit significantly harder than a Ball Lightning hitting twice, but you still have the huge hatred penalty. Cluster Bombs shares the hatred penalty, but when you're hitting for a million at a time it doesn't matter so much.

How do you get over Cluster Bomb's range? I tried that for a while after watching Athene abuse it, and I couldn't make it work. You need some pretty absurd defenses to stay alive long enough to hurt that hard.

It's what the caltrops are for. Also the Templar is helpful for bosses. Obviously you lose out on a lot of goodies by not having an Enchantress/Scoundrel, but when he holds Rakanoth still for 15 seconds letting you obliterate him, it's worthwhile.

What on earth are you gearing your templar with to let him stand up to anything other than a sand baby for more than 1 second? O.o

Jibba

mato-andrew wrote: »

Jibba wrote: »

mato-andrew wrote: »

Jibba wrote: »

Lanrutcon wrote: »

Jibba wrote: »

If you're running with a group and you want to use Frost Arrow, should be something like this:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#fRYjXV!Yec!bZZYZb

Smokescreen, Caltrops and Prep are just so, so good. You really don't need Vault if you're playing with other people. Sharpshooter is like a 3-8% DPS boost overall for most people which is ok but not as good as the other abilities. Plus in multiplayer games, things stay alive for much longer so SS loses effectiveness since it's all about upfront damage.

Marked for Death is especially useful against champs, but you could replace it with something else.

As for your main attack, Evasive Fire is just awesome. With Frost Arrow, you can consider switching it for Hungering Arrow w/ Devouring, but in general Evasive Fire is just a great skill to use - especially solo. When people talk about DPS, they're only looking at the paperdoll and aren't looking at actual DPS. Evasive Fire is an instant hit without travel time, so its true DPS is actually higher than any of the other Hatred builders that take time to make it to their target.

The problem with Loaded for Bear is that it doesn't do anything particularly well. It's got good damage, no doubt, but its damage per hatred is much, much lower than any of the Elemental Arrow attacks because you'll never hit a target with more than one or two of the grenades. I would either go with one of the Elemental Arrow variants or Razor Disc chakram, or if you're really dedicated to blowing the shit out of champions, get Cluster Bombs (w/ Grenadier passive.)

Gonna disagree on a few points there: for single target damage, Evasive Fire is worse the Hungering arrow (35% base chance to do double damage, before you even add a rune). The travel time is mitigated by the fact that the arrows will auto-correct in flight to almost assure that almost every arrow hits. The math is pretty clearcut on it, hence everyone toting Devouring as the cookiecutter choice for glass cannons.

No, it's not mitigated by it. When you have 3 or more targets on the screen, Evasive Fire will do more damage than every HA shot except Exploding Teeth. Even on single targets, the advantage of HA w/ Devouring is lessened because the arrow takes so long. I can fire 2 Evasive Shots before a HA hits, and most trash is dead by then. The math is based on paper doll DPS. It is not based on an actual simulation, where Evasive Shot autotargets and instahits 3 things at a time.

The idea with Cluster Arrow is that you're going to spend your time kiting in Inferno. You'll have very little 'shooty' time when you're dodging a pack of rare Shamans or flying dinosaurs in Act 3, so you need that maximize that one shot you get every now and then while weaving between fireballs. That one shot is Cluster Arrow with Loaded for Bear. It's the freight train of burst damage.

The damage of LFB doesn't come close to Cluster Bombs. Nothing in the game does. It's harder to aim, but it makes up for it when you demolish a champion pack stuck in Caltrops. And there really isn't that much kiting needed anymore. The range of Ball Lightning and others are so big that you can spam them all over the place to kill champions on the bridge and fortress in A3.

Your overall damage is severely limited by using LFB because individually it doesn't hit significantly harder than a Ball Lightning hitting twice, but you still have the huge hatred penalty. Cluster Bombs shares the hatred penalty, but when you're hitting for a million at a time it doesn't matter so much.

How do you get over Cluster Bomb's range? I tried that for a while after watching Athene abuse it, and I couldn't make it work. You need some pretty absurd defenses to stay alive long enough to hurt that hard.

It's what the caltrops are for. Also the Templar is helpful for bosses. Obviously you lose out on a lot of goodies by not having an Enchantress/Scoundrel, but when he holds Rakanoth still for 15 seconds letting you obliterate him, it's worthwhile.

What on earth are you gearing your templar with to let him stand up to anything other than a sand baby for more than 1 second? O.o

For whatever reason bosses still target spells at him, even after they've knocked him out.

Like, he keeps Butcher still long enough for 4 Cluster Bombs. Even after Rakanoth knocks him out, he'll still target his first disc attack towards him. It's kind of weird.

Delphinidaes

Jibba wrote: »

mato-andrew wrote: »

Jibba wrote: »

mato-andrew wrote: »

Jibba wrote: »

Lanrutcon wrote: »

Jibba wrote: »

If you're running with a group and you want to use Frost Arrow, should be something like this:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#fRYjXV!Yec!bZZYZb

Smokescreen, Caltrops and Prep are just so, so good. You really don't need Vault if you're playing with other people. Sharpshooter is like a 3-8% DPS boost overall for most people which is ok but not as good as the other abilities. Plus in multiplayer games, things stay alive for much longer so SS loses effectiveness since it's all about upfront damage.

Marked for Death is especially useful against champs, but you could replace it with something else.

As for your main attack, Evasive Fire is just awesome. With Frost Arrow, you can consider switching it for Hungering Arrow w/ Devouring, but in general Evasive Fire is just a great skill to use - especially solo. When people talk about DPS, they're only looking at the paperdoll and aren't looking at actual DPS. Evasive Fire is an instant hit without travel time, so its true DPS is actually higher than any of the other Hatred builders that take time to make it to their target.

The problem with Loaded for Bear is that it doesn't do anything particularly well. It's got good damage, no doubt, but its damage per hatred is much, much lower than any of the Elemental Arrow attacks because you'll never hit a target with more than one or two of the grenades. I would either go with one of the Elemental Arrow variants or Razor Disc chakram, or if you're really dedicated to blowing the shit out of champions, get Cluster Bombs (w/ Grenadier passive.)

Gonna disagree on a few points there: for single target damage, Evasive Fire is worse the Hungering arrow (35% base chance to do double damage, before you even add a rune). The travel time is mitigated by the fact that the arrows will auto-correct in flight to almost assure that almost every arrow hits. The math is pretty clearcut on it, hence everyone toting Devouring as the cookiecutter choice for glass cannons.

No, it's not mitigated by it. When you have 3 or more targets on the screen, Evasive Fire will do more damage than every HA shot except Exploding Teeth. Even on single targets, the advantage of HA w/ Devouring is lessened because the arrow takes so long. I can fire 2 Evasive Shots before a HA hits, and most trash is dead by then. The math is based on paper doll DPS. It is not based on an actual simulation, where Evasive Shot autotargets and instahits 3 things at a time.

The idea with Cluster Arrow is that you're going to spend your time kiting in Inferno. You'll have very little 'shooty' time when you're dodging a pack of rare Shamans or flying dinosaurs in Act 3, so you need that maximize that one shot you get every now and then while weaving between fireballs. That one shot is Cluster Arrow with Loaded for Bear. It's the freight train of burst damage.

The damage of LFB doesn't come close to Cluster Bombs. Nothing in the game does. It's harder to aim, but it makes up for it when you demolish a champion pack stuck in Caltrops. And there really isn't that much kiting needed anymore. The range of Ball Lightning and others are so big that you can spam them all over the place to kill champions on the bridge and fortress in A3.

Your overall damage is severely limited by using LFB because individually it doesn't hit significantly harder than a Ball Lightning hitting twice, but you still have the huge hatred penalty. Cluster Bombs shares the hatred penalty, but when you're hitting for a million at a time it doesn't matter so much.

How do you get over Cluster Bomb's range? I tried that for a while after watching Athene abuse it, and I couldn't make it work. You need some pretty absurd defenses to stay alive long enough to hurt that hard.

It's what the caltrops are for. Also the Templar is helpful for bosses. Obviously you lose out on a lot of goodies by not having an Enchantress/Scoundrel, but when he holds Rakanoth still for 15 seconds letting you obliterate him, it's worthwhile.

What on earth are you gearing your templar with to let him stand up to anything other than a sand baby for more than 1 second? O.o

For whatever reason bosses still target spells at him, even after they've knocked him out.

Like, he keeps Butcher still long enough for 4 Cluster Bombs. Even after Rakanoth knocks him out, he'll still target his first disc attack towards him. It's kind of weird.

O.o Is that so shocking? I mean...if I were an all powerful demon with the power of death at my command...and I heard Kormac speaking for 3 seconds....I would make SURE I killed him.

Jibba

Fair point.

mato-andrew

Jibba wrote: »

mato-andrew wrote: »

Jibba wrote: »

mato-andrew wrote: »

Jibba wrote: »

Lanrutcon wrote: »

Jibba wrote: »

If you're running with a group and you want to use Frost Arrow, should be something like this:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#fRYjXV!Yec!bZZYZb

Smokescreen, Caltrops and Prep are just so, so good. You really don't need Vault if you're playing with other people. Sharpshooter is like a 3-8% DPS boost overall for most people which is ok but not as good as the other abilities. Plus in multiplayer games, things stay alive for much longer so SS loses effectiveness since it's all about upfront damage.

Marked for Death is especially useful against champs, but you could replace it with something else.

As for your main attack, Evasive Fire is just awesome. With Frost Arrow, you can consider switching it for Hungering Arrow w/ Devouring, but in general Evasive Fire is just a great skill to use - especially solo. When people talk about DPS, they're only looking at the paperdoll and aren't looking at actual DPS. Evasive Fire is an instant hit without travel time, so its true DPS is actually higher than any of the other Hatred builders that take time to make it to their target.

The problem with Loaded for Bear is that it doesn't do anything particularly well. It's got good damage, no doubt, but its damage per hatred is much, much lower than any of the Elemental Arrow attacks because you'll never hit a target with more than one or two of the grenades. I would either go with one of the Elemental Arrow variants or Razor Disc chakram, or if you're really dedicated to blowing the shit out of champions, get Cluster Bombs (w/ Grenadier passive.)

Gonna disagree on a few points there: for single target damage, Evasive Fire is worse the Hungering arrow (35% base chance to do double damage, before you even add a rune). The travel time is mitigated by the fact that the arrows will auto-correct in flight to almost assure that almost every arrow hits. The math is pretty clearcut on it, hence everyone toting Devouring as the cookiecutter choice for glass cannons.

No, it's not mitigated by it. When you have 3 or more targets on the screen, Evasive Fire will do more damage than every HA shot except Exploding Teeth. Even on single targets, the advantage of HA w/ Devouring is lessened because the arrow takes so long. I can fire 2 Evasive Shots before a HA hits, and most trash is dead by then. The math is based on paper doll DPS. It is not based on an actual simulation, where Evasive Shot autotargets and instahits 3 things at a time.

The idea with Cluster Arrow is that you're going to spend your time kiting in Inferno. You'll have very little 'shooty' time when you're dodging a pack of rare Shamans or flying dinosaurs in Act 3, so you need that maximize that one shot you get every now and then while weaving between fireballs. That one shot is Cluster Arrow with Loaded for Bear. It's the freight train of burst damage.

The damage of LFB doesn't come close to Cluster Bombs. Nothing in the game does. It's harder to aim, but it makes up for it when you demolish a champion pack stuck in Caltrops. And there really isn't that much kiting needed anymore. The range of Ball Lightning and others are so big that you can spam them all over the place to kill champions on the bridge and fortress in A3.

Your overall damage is severely limited by using LFB because individually it doesn't hit significantly harder than a Ball Lightning hitting twice, but you still have the huge hatred penalty. Cluster Bombs shares the hatred penalty, but when you're hitting for a million at a time it doesn't matter so much.

How do you get over Cluster Bomb's range? I tried that for a while after watching Athene abuse it, and I couldn't make it work. You need some pretty absurd defenses to stay alive long enough to hurt that hard.

It's what the caltrops are for. Also the Templar is helpful for bosses. Obviously you lose out on a lot of goodies by not having an Enchantress/Scoundrel, but when he holds Rakanoth still for 15 seconds letting you obliterate him, it's worthwhile.

What on earth are you gearing your templar with to let him stand up to anything other than a sand baby for more than 1 second? O.o

For whatever reason bosses still target spells at him, even after they've knocked him out.

Like, he keeps Butcher still long enough for 4 Cluster Bombs. Even after Rakanoth knocks him out, he'll still target his first disc attack towards him. It's kind of weird.

That's awesome. I haven't used the Templar since I discovered that I could get 3% IAS/15% armor from the Enchantress. I'll have to give him a second look if he's got some sort of passive taunt.

Sensational wrote: »

mato-andrew wrote: »

Lanrutcon wrote: »

This is what I run for group play: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#aPYVXj!YeT!acZbZY

Your dex is a tiny bit below average, tbh. If you're glass cannon-ing around you should be packing more. If you like the damage on Impale you're gonna love Cluster Arrows. Vault is a harsh mistress, and I can totally see people using it over Caltrops (I'm a huge supporter of Caltrops, personally)...but Vault over Smoke Screen? You should try and become familiar with Smoke Screen, it's the single best defensive tool Demon Hunters have. Without it you're going to suffer a great deal as you get further into Inferno.

Smoke Screen is amazing, but it's so painful for me to use. I hate having Smoke Screen on my bar on my DH much like I hate having Serenity on my bar on my Monk. Using it (and therefore, justifying having it) means that I've failed somehow in controlling the monsters I'm facing, or that I'm otherwise not quite geared for the content I'm up against. I love it, but I hate it, and I need it, and I can't get rid of it.

ON AN UNRELATED NOTE: RANGED BARBS ARE HILARIOUSLY FUN. XD

That is completely the wrong way to look at smoke screen, you're seeing it as an emergency button for when everything else fails, I see it as the base. It's such an amazing ability, you will not unlock the full power of DH until you maximize it and learn to use it all the time.

I disagree with your opinions.

forty

mato-andrew wrote: »

Lanrutcon wrote: »

This just in: Act 3 Inferno is still as much fun as experiencing root canal in a country-western bar.

You may now continue with your daily...stuff.

My monk is currently geared well enough to have Act 3 on farm. Yet, I'm still farming Act 1, every night. Why? A few reasons:

Spoiler:

1) Monsters in Act 2 and 3 have significantly more HP than those in Act 1. Even with impressive damage numbers (I'm feeling my Wheaties at 22k listed on my monk) it still takes an absurd amount of time to kill a champ/elite. This might be mitigated slightly with a different build, but it's still a huge hindrance. Overall, I expect any given champ encounter in Act 3 to take roughly 5-10 minutes each, and significantly more for certain monster/affix combinations (Shielding Nightmarish Waller Extra Health wyverns, for example).

2) Monsters in Act 2 and 3 run away from melee significantly more than Act 1. Only a handful of monster types in Act 1 will actively flee melee. Act 2 and 3? Seems like 40-50% of monster types flee. This "small" behavior difference alone has a huge impact on my drops/minute.

3) Monsters in Act 2 and 3 have much more difficult to predict spawning locations. In Act 1, I always know the location of no less than 5-7 champion/boss packs, and I'll frequently meet with more than that with just random boss/champ packs dropped randomly as well. Act 2 and 3 have much less easy to predict spawn locations.

4) Bosses in Act 2 and 3 are significantly more difficult and time consuming to kill. Ghom is the most difficult boss in the game for my monk right now, and only beatable for me with a few build types - and even then, they're builds that would get me killed farming. He's completely unfarmable. Siegebreaker is doable, but he still takes a much greater amount of time than say, Zultan Kulle or the Butcher. Rakanoth is fun, but can still insta-gib me if I'm not careful, and it's not at all guaranteed to have 5 stacks by the time I reach him. Diablo is, of course, a night-long time investment to kill.

Overall, I expect more 61+ drops/minute with Act 1 than I do any other act. Maybe at some point of gearing, the scales will tip again, but for now, even for an appropriately geared character, it's just a completely unnecessary pain.

Bravo! *applauds*

So I ran headlong into the "Inferno mob health scales way too much with more players" this weekend when I tried to play with three friends. It's just frustrating and ridiculous. They claim the game was balanced around coop, but it sure seems easier to play solo or, at most, with one other person playing a complimentary role -- a high DPS in my case to go with my tankyish barb. Mob health with 3-4 people in the game just gets too high and is less productive for everyone involved.

There are so many things about this game that seem untuned for how long they were working on it.

Pookiepoo

I'd spent days looking for upgrades at the 25m level and couldn't find anything I was happy with. Finally, I found a massive upgrade priced at 99k. Then, this morning I found a big weapon upgrade for 2.5m. The AH definitely rewards patience and persistence. Eventually someone will come along and horribly misprice something.

3lwap0

Fair points everyone - I guess I should give Smoke Screen another look. I just enjoy teleporting away and out of everything. I use the speed passive after a vault/smoke screen. I haul a lot of ass.

Anywho, weapons. Outside of life on hit, is there any compelling argument for two hand xbows, versus a two hander? How do I assess the DPS of both bows, versus a two-handed bow? I realize I can't take two 500 DPS hand xbows, and assume it's a 1000 DPS versus my 935 DPS two-handed xbow. Outside of adding the passive boosts of each weapon, is it a viable tactic? I'm looking for Pro/Con's really - thanks in advance my fellow DH's. *fistbump*

Rius

Pookiepoo wrote: »

I'd spent days looking for upgrades at the 25m level and couldn't find anything I was happy with. Finally, I found a massive upgrade priced at 99k. Then, this morning I found a big weapon upgrade for 2.5m. The AH definitely rewards patience and persistence. Eventually someone will come along and horribly misprice something.

Big confirm to this; I got an amulet for 315k a couple of days ago that I'm pretty sure is worth 4-5m.