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Diablo III: Thread over, much like windup wizard

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    ConstrictorConstrictor The Dork Knight SuburbialandRegistered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    Diablo Progress was released a few days ago.

    Character ranking site. A very useful tool for discerning just how shitty you are!

    Kind of worthless really since it shows 'top' profiles are those which focused on a single stat, harming the overall balance of their character.

    I've tried to keep mine as balanced as possible with defense/offense/magic find all in one and I have really nice gear but I'm not top quality in any one stat.

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    troublebrewingtroublebrewing Registered User regular
    I'm pretty excited about all of those changes!

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    IncindiumIncindium Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    _J_ wrote: »
    Diablo Progress was released a few days ago.

    Character ranking site. A very useful tool for discerning just how shitty you are!

    Cool site... Wooo I'm 505th in Americas for STR on Barbarians.

    Incindium on
    steam_sig.png
    Nintendo ID: Incindium
    PSN: IncindiumX
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    fortyforty Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    Diablo Progress was released a few days ago.

    Character ranking site. A very useful tool for discerning just how shitty you are!

    Kind of worthless really since it shows 'top' profiles are those which focused on a single stat, harming the overall balance of their character.

    I've tried to keep mine as balanced as possible with defense/offense/magic find all in one and I have really nice gear but I'm not top quality in any one stat.
    Yeah, doesn't seem nearly as useful or interesting as wowprogress. I think the most interesting thing they could get on there (apparently isn't working yet) would be Hardcore progression, since that's the only thing that's really "difficult" in D3.

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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    HooverFan wrote: »
    I bet J is off in a corner masturbating furiously after reading all that

    We're not quite at "semen everywhere" levels, but I was generally pleased by what I read.

    A few things:

    •Magic find and gold find will no longer be averaged in multiplayer games.

    A thousand times yes. Because "fuck leeches", that's why.


    • "So, in 1.0.4 we’re increasing the health of normal monsters by approximately 5%-10% in Inferno, but also increasing the likelihood they drop magic or rare items by a factor of four."

    Does anyone know what the fuck "factor of four" means? Because I don't know what it means.


    • "We don’t think they fit well into the general philosophy of the game, which is more about trying to farm as efficiently as possible."

    Removing Enrage Timers and the “heal back to full” is a good step. Removing Invulnerable Minions is a good step. Lowering the health of Champions and Rares by 10-25% is another good step.

    Buffing trash is not a good step.

    Despite their repeated use of the phrase "farm as efficiently as possible", it feels like they are unsure of its exact meaning. They still want parts of the game to be a challenge, and they don't seem to have a clear idea of how challenge and efficiency ought to be balanced against each other. So, we keep getting very tepid nerfs, or nerfs with some buffs thrown in. Yes, they're listening to community feedback and making progress. But I'd really like them to just skip to the end and have the "OH! They just want to fucking steamroll everything!" eureka moment. And, of course, not steamroll everything as soon as you get to Inferno. But after dumping a few million gold into gear upgrades on the AH? Steamrolling ought to be possible.

    They seem to be hanging onto the hope that fighting monsters, in itself, is an enjoyable, considerable aspect of the game. It would be nice for them to understand what "farming efficiently" means, and so recognize that killing monsters is just the means to the item acquisition end.

    The challenge of a Diablo game oughtn't be the monster battles.

    The challenge of a Diablo game is not killing yourself between the 20,000th boss farm, the new game load for the 20,001st farm.

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    TTODewbackTTODewback Puts the drawl in ya'll I think I'm in HellRegistered User regular
    I hope they fix the graphical glitch on one type of 60+ helm. It has some feathers hanging fromt he back of it...Except when you put it on the feathers show up on the front and cover your character's eyes.

    Bless your heart.
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    ShenShen Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    A factor of four is 1, 2 or 4 :P

    And I'm somehow 112th dps for monks in the EU despite only being 972nd for dexterity? Very odd.

    E: Ah, I think I logged out with my buffs active, foresight and Blazing Wrath. Became obvious when I saw number 1 had 300k dps and a shitload of buff skills, heh.

    Shen on
    3DS: 2234-8122-8398 | Battle.net (EU): Ladi#2485
    ladi.png
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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    Diablo Progress was released a few days ago.

    Character ranking site. A very useful tool for discerning just how shitty you are!

    Kind of worthless really since it shows 'top' profiles are those which focused on a single stat, harming the overall balance of their character.

    I've tried to keep mine as balanced as possible with defense/offense/magic find all in one and I have really nice gear but I'm not top quality in any one stat.

    At the moment, it's useful for the DPS rankings. For example, Myon is 2nd highest DH DPS with 784462. I can quickly click through to his armory page and peek at his gear.

    My hope is that in the future they add more stat rankings, and allow for combination searches. So we'll be able to search for highest MF/DPS combo.

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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Shen wrote: »
    A factor of four is 1, 2 or 4 :P

    And I'm somehow 112th dps for monks in the EU despite only being 972nd for dexterity? Very odd.

    I don't know what that means in terms of gameplay. Four out of what? Or does that mean 4x better gear?

    What is a "factor of four" in terms of actual gear drops? Does this put them on the level of an elite pack? I doubt it. So, how much lower than an elite pack are they? By what factor would trash have to be increased to put it on a level of an elite pack or boss or goblin drops?

    That's what my question means: We don't know what "factor of four" means in a gaming context.

    "four" isn't a meaningful unit of comparison, given what we know about item drops.

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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Jars wrote: »
    I don't really see how averaged mf was penalized play

    I had 400 MF.
    You had 0 MF.

    If I play with you, I lose half my MF.

    That loss of MF is a penalty.

    I agree with you that this new system does not fix the problem. However, I think it is a step in the correct direction.

    What they need to do is impliment a matchmaking system that groups persons based upon MF / DPS. So people with 100 MF and 20K DPS are grouped together, and people with 150 MF and 50K DPS are grouped together.

    Segregation isn't always a bad thing.

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    Idx86Idx86 Long days and pleasant nights.Registered User regular
    I just want to be able to jump online and be 'invisible' to my friends list.

    sig.gif

    2008, 2012, 2014 D&D "Rare With No Sauce" League Fantasy Football Champion!
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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Idx86 wrote: »
    I just want to be able to jump online and be 'invisible' to my friends list.

    This sentiment always seems strange.

    "I added them to my friends list. I don't want them to see me."

    That's a very strange understanding of what a friends list is.

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    CowSharkCowShark Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    Diablo Progress was released a few days ago.

    Character ranking site. A very useful tool for discerning just how shitty you are!

    Kind of worthless really since it shows 'top' profiles are those which focused on a single stat, harming the overall balance of their character.

    I've tried to keep mine as balanced as possible with defense/offense/magic find all in one and I have really nice gear but I'm not top quality in any one stat.

    Interesting that you can see what a real gold farmer's setup looks like, though.

    http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/morfz0r-2997/hero/9100418

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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    CowShark wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Diablo Progress was released a few days ago.

    Character ranking site. A very useful tool for discerning just how shitty you are!

    Kind of worthless really since it shows 'top' profiles are those which focused on a single stat, harming the overall balance of their character.

    I've tried to keep mine as balanced as possible with defense/offense/magic find all in one and I have really nice gear but I'm not top quality in any one stat.

    Interesting that you can see what a real gold farmer's setup looks like, though.

    http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/morfz0r-2997/hero/9100418

    Go go ferret bot!

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    to one person it's a penalty. to the other it's a bonus. there is no net loss

    ether way no one is going to farm in public games after the changes because why would you ever farm in a public game. why would you ever play a public game period? I have never joined one. the only reason you did them in d2 was to try and bum rushes and do baal runs, neither of which have much point in d3.

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    XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    I have not upgraded my Jeweler. Is it true that they can add sockets to items?

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    CogCog What'd you expect? Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    They seem to be hanging onto the hope that fighting monsters, in itself, is an enjoyable, considerable aspect of the game.

    I get enjoyment out of killing monsters, but I think they would have more success there if they made the monsters mean anything at all in addition to loot piñata.

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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Jars wrote: »
    to one person it's a penalty. to the other it's a bonus. there is no net loss

    What?

    ...

    What?

    So...I lose 200 MF, some goose gains 200 MF...and that isn't a penalty because the universe's MF stays the same?

    The fuck?

    Jars wrote: »
    ether way no one is going to farm in public games after the changes because why would you ever farm in a public game. why would you ever play a public game period? I have never joined one. the only reason you did them in d2 was to try and bum rushes and do baal runs, neither of which have much point in d3.

    Yup. My prediction is that in the future we're going to see some sort of MF buff for group play. Something like every person in the group adds 15% to everyone's base MF.

    But even then...make a group game of friends rather than join a public game. So then they make the MF buff only apply to public games.

    Public games are for lose. They were kinda nice during the first weeks to meet new people who were at your same rate of progression. But now it's just failboat.

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    ConstrictorConstrictor The Dork Knight SuburbialandRegistered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    Shen wrote: »
    A factor of four is 1, 2 or 4 :P

    And I'm somehow 112th dps for monks in the EU despite only being 972nd for dexterity? Very odd.

    I don't know what that means in terms of gameplay. Four out of what? Or does that mean 4x better gear?

    What is a "factor of four" in terms of actual gear drops? Does this put them on the level of an elite pack? I doubt it. So, how much lower than an elite pack are they? By what factor would trash have to be increased to put it on a level of an elite pack or boss or goblin drops?

    That's what my question means: We don't know what "factor of four" means in a gaming context.

    "four" isn't a meaningful unit of comparison, given what we know about item drops.

    I usually get at least one rare iLvL 63 item from trash per act III clear. I expect I'll get around 4 of them post patch. Sounds good.

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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Cog wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    They seem to be hanging onto the hope that fighting monsters, in itself, is an enjoyable, considerable aspect of the game.

    I get enjoyment out of killing monsters, but I think they would have more success there if they made the monsters mean anything at all in addition to loot piñata.

    What do you mean by "made the monsters mean anything at all"?

    What would they be other than loot pinatas?

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    CowSharkCowShark Registered User regular
    Like procedurally generated backstories, their own lives, schedules and motivations, hopes and dreams--so whenever you kill a monster, you really feel like you're diminishing the life of the world.

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    IncindiumIncindium Registered User regular
    CowShark wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Diablo Progress was released a few days ago.

    Character ranking site. A very useful tool for discerning just how shitty you are!

    Kind of worthless really since it shows 'top' profiles are those which focused on a single stat, harming the overall balance of their character.

    I've tried to keep mine as balanced as possible with defense/offense/magic find all in one and I have really nice gear but I'm not top quality in any one stat.

    Interesting that you can see what a real gold farmer's setup looks like, though.

    http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/morfz0r-2997/hero/9100418

    Only 4% Gold find on the Scoundrel though...

    steam_sig.png
    Nintendo ID: Incindium
    PSN: IncindiumX
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    CogCog What'd you expect? Registered User regular
    Xaquin wrote: »
    I have not upgraded my Jeweler. Is it true that they can add sockets to items?

    Untrue.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Factor of four presumably means that whatever number determined the likelihood of getting a rare or magic item was multiplied by four. So if you'd have gotten six rares from whites before, now you'll get 24.

    Public games can be fun.

    Sometimes I don't want to play with people, so I don't want them to see me online. Don't carefully all that much, though. It's a pretty common antisocial attitude, though I totally get it.

    It's why every online service from Steam to XBL all the way back to dialup AIM and ICQ have had an "appear offline" option. BNET is one of the only ones I've ever seen that doesn't.

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    hey if someone was giving me 200% mf I think that would be pretty sweet

    Jars on
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    CogCog What'd you expect? Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    Cog wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    They seem to be hanging onto the hope that fighting monsters, in itself, is an enjoyable, considerable aspect of the game.

    I get enjoyment out of killing monsters, but I think they would have more success there if they made the monsters mean anything at all in addition to loot piñata.

    What do you mean by "made the monsters mean anything at all"?

    What would they be other than loot pinatas?

    I mean having a reason to kill them other than the loot, a feature the game doesn't offer. As soon as you hit the level cap, the only other thing they provide - xp - is useless. If they can be made to provide an alternative benefit at level 60, especially if it's in any way tied to current act or difficulty of the affixes or some such, us humans might have more incentive for it and enjoyment from it. I understand we probably won't see eye to eye on this one.

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    RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    Removing Enrage Timers and the “heal back to full” is a good step. Removing Invulnerable Minions is a good step. Lowering the health of Champions and Rares by 10-25% is another good step.

    Buffing trash is not a good step.

    Leave it to _J_ to complain about normal monsters getting a giant buff of 5-10% HP to compensate for quadrupling their drop rate. Dude, they're made of tissue paper now! You're still going to kill them rather easily!

    Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    CowShark wrote: »
    Like procedurally generated backstories, their own lives, schedules and motivations, hopes and dreams--so whenever you kill a monster, you really feel like you're diminishing the life of the world.

    I like it.

    "This was Hank the Pain Monger. He has 2 children, a wife, and he was 2 days from retirement. His dream was to settle in a nice overthrown fishing village in sanctuary, spending his days relaxing by the shore while listening to the lamentations of mortals rent asunder in the barley fields."

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    XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    He doesn't get they're quadrupling the drop rate. Because "factor of 4" is confusing...somehow!

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    fortyforty Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    • "So, in 1.0.4 we’re increasing the health of normal monsters by approximately 5%-10% in Inferno, but also increasing the likelihood they drop magic or rare items by a factor of four."

    Does anyone know what the fuck "factor of four" means? Because I don't know what it means.
    It means they'll drop magic/rare items four times as often as they do now. If right now you kill 400 trash mobs on average for each rare you get from them, after 1.0.4 you should get a rare for every 100 trash mobs killed on average.

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    CogCog What'd you expect? Registered User regular
    CowShark wrote: »
    Like procedurally generated backstories, their own lives, schedules and motivations, hopes and dreams--so whenever you kill a monster, you really feel like you're diminishing the life of the world.

    We also need a team on this immediately.

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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Removing Enrage Timers and the “heal back to full” is a good step. Removing Invulnerable Minions is a good step. Lowering the health of Champions and Rares by 10-25% is another good step.

    Buffing trash is not a good step.

    Leave it to _J_ to complain about normal monsters getting a giant buff of 5-10% HP to compensate for quadrupling their drop rate. Dude, they're made of tissue paper now! You're still going to kill them rather easily!

    I'm not so much complaining as much as I'm...articulating the idea that buffing trash doesn't help anyone.

    I won't die to them. But instead of being one hit they'll be dropped down to maybe 2% life or something. So then I have to shoot them again.

    How does that behoove gameplay?

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    because right now all I want to do with white mobs is run past them since they are worthless. that's why I don't farm act 3, because it is much easier to skip all the white mobs in act 2.

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    fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    _J_ wrote: »
    I'm not so much complaining as much as I'm...articulating the idea that buffing trash doesn't help anyone.

    I won't die to them. But instead of being one hit they'll be dropped down to maybe 2% life or something. So then I have to shoot them again.

    How does that behoove gameplay?
    The point is to decrease the massive jump in difficulty between when you are fighting white mobs and when an elite pack shows up. Making trash mobs harder and more rewarding makes the game slightly less snooze-inducing in between elites, and then elites being tuned better makes the random encounters swing less wildly into "this is retarded" territory. Balancing the game generally helps players enjoy it more.

    Edit: Read this paragraph again because I think they explained the rationale pretty well:
    We know there are a lot of you out there that are really frustrated by the difficulty of some of the champion and rare packs, so in 1.0.4 we’re going to shrink the gap between normal monsters and Elite packs (Champions and Rares). The design intent of Champion and Rare packs is to provide a spike of challenge, but in general we feel like the gap is too big. Normal monsters die quickly and are usually just fodder, and Champions and Rares can feel like a brick wall. In general we’re looking to bring normal enemies up a smidge, and Champions and Rares down.

    forty on
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    CogCog What'd you expect? Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    From the context of that section, it also seems like they want to smooth out the difficulty curve between trash and elites to lessen the shock for people stepping into inferno, or a new act of it, for the first time. Currently it's not a huge deal to kill the early trash but then you get your shit stomped by the first elites. I think they want the early trash to give people freshly into inferno a little more pause and chance to think "these white mobs were actually kinda tough.. I bet the elites will rape me.. maybe I actually shouldn't quite be here yet".

    This change seems not to be meant to impact people farming inferno, but the people still trying to crack into it.

    Cog on
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    fortyforty Registered User regular
    Right now Diablo 3 is like if the first three stages in each world of Super Mario Bros. were just flat courses with no obstacles and maybe a couple Goombas to easily kill or avoid, but then every World X-4 stage was filled with Hammer Brothers and had 3 Bowsers on that bridge at the end. The D3 devs want to get the game closer to how Super Mario Bros. actually works, where there is actually some challenge in all the stages and things don't just suddenly jump up ridiculously in difficulty every 4th stage.

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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    forty wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    I'm not so much complaining as much as I'm...articulating the idea that buffing trash doesn't help anyone.

    I won't die to them. But instead of being one hit they'll be dropped down to maybe 2% life or something. So then I have to shoot them again.

    How does that behoove gameplay?
    The point is to decrease the massive jump in difficulty between when you are fighting white mobs and when an elite pack shows up. Making trash mobs harder and more rewarding makes the game slightly less snooze-inducing in between elites, and then elites being tuned better makes the random encounters swing less wildly into "this is retarded" territory. Balancing the game generally helps players enjoy it more.

    Edit: Read this paragraph again because I think they explained the rationale pretty well:
    We know there are a lot of you out there that are really frustrated by the difficulty of some of the champion and rare packs, so in 1.0.4 we’re going to shrink the gap between normal monsters and Elite packs (Champions and Rares). The design intent of Champion and Rare packs is to provide a spike of challenge, but in general we feel like the gap is too big. Normal monsters die quickly and are usually just fodder, and Champions and Rares can feel like a brick wall. In general we’re looking to bring normal enemies up a smidge, and Champions and Rares down.

    They could shrink the gap by keeping trash the same, and lowering Elite / Champion packs even more.

    Yes, the particular change they're making (buff trash slightly) is not a gigantic problem.

    I'm more concerned with the mentality that buff indicates: They still think that some difficulties need to be increased. Some monster, somewhere, has to be harder since we're making these elite packs easier.

    That's a problem.

    Because, again, they could just lower elite / champion packs by even more to shrink the gap, while still buffing trash drops.

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    Idx86Idx86 Long days and pleasant nights.Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    _J_ wrote: »
    Idx86 wrote: »
    I just want to be able to jump online and be 'invisible' to my friends list.

    This sentiment always seems strange.

    "I added them to my friends list. I don't want them to see me."

    That's a very strange understanding of what a friends list is.

    I have a neighbor friend who is always online and wants to co-op every time I'm on. Sometimes we play, but sometimes I'd rather just solo. And in the upper midwest, we're anti-conflict so I hate saying I don't want to play and feel like an asshole. I'd rather just hide my presence on Battle.net.

    Plus if I'm working from home and want to D3 it up, no one will know.

    Idx86 on
    sig.gif

    2008, 2012, 2014 D&D "Rare With No Sauce" League Fantasy Football Champion!
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    CogCog What'd you expect? Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    _J_ wrote: »
    They could shrink the gap by keeping trash the same, and lowering Elite / Champion packs even more.

    ...which might make elite/champ packs end up weaker than they want them to be. You could also argue that if it was just about gap closing they could solve the problem by simply buffing trash and leaving elite/champs alone. They're balancing the two both against each other and against player characters. They "could" shrink the gap by making champ packs three times as hard and buffing trash accordingly but that would be retarded. There are more factors at play than simply the relative of the difference between the two mob types, there's also the absolute of the difficulty factor of each on it's own, which you can't ignore and your solution is doing.
    _J_ wrote: »
    I'm more concerned with the mentality that buff indicates: They still think that some difficulties need to be increased. Some monster, somewhere, has to be harder since we're making these elite packs easier.

    Err.. where did they say that something MUST be buffed BECAUSE elites were getting easier? They said they wanted to close the relative gap between the two, not that because X then Y.

    Cog on
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    RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    Leave it to _J_ to complain about normal monsters getting a giant buff of 5-10% HP to compensate for quadrupling their drop rate. Dude, they're made of tissue paper now! You're still going to kill them rather easily!

    I'm not so much complaining as much as I'm...articulating the idea that buffing trash doesn't help anyone.

    I won't die to them. But instead of being one hit they'll be dropped down to maybe 2% life or something. So then I have to shoot them again.

    How does that behoove gameplay?

    Humans play video games because they like being challenged and then rewarded for that challenge. Sometimes increasing the difficulty of the task increases the reward felt when completed. Whether that is a smaller tactical challenge of defeating a monster or a bigger strategic challenge of collecting gear to better handle those challenges.

    This is why monsters have enough HP that you need good gear to kill them in one shot. And why nobody has made a "Click the button and pick up the loot" game.

    Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
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