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Why do boys drool and girls rule? A [Discussion] about why boys are under-performing

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Posts

  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    Houn wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Yeah I can't really say I've used much beyond knowing how to read and write proper English (which pretty much ended at 5th-7th grade) and simple maths. Sure knowing what a metatarsal is, is semi-useful when I'm talking to a doctor, or knowing the general chemicals on our earth, but their practical use is ... limited.

    Even those essays and summer reading were pointless. Aside from the rare book I read in high school, TKAM, ethan frome, and animal farm. 3 out of the at least 2 dozen books we were supposed to read.

    No one will play You Don't Know Jack with me because I always win. Also, I love to shout out answers at Jeopardy, though I wouldn't say I'm good enough to actually be a contestant.

    What is the number 1 thing that annoys all my friends? They don't play trivia games like that with me unless it's obscure sports trivia or something.

    bowen on
  • BethrynBethryn Registered User regular
    Yar wrote: »
    Can we all agree that "preadulthood" is a gooseshit term that needs to die?

    Eh... no? Call it what you want, there is a marked increase of frat boys and party girls going on 30. I'm not judging it one way or another. But it's noticeable. It isn't just about accidental pregnancies. It's also rejecting the idea that once college is over, it's time to get married and have kids. It's a rejection of going to school to get your M.R.S. And it's creating a culture that is fairly new and noticeable. Noticeable for its many similarities to adolescence.
    The joke being that it's a value judgment on what it means to be an 'adult'.

    bethryn.png
  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    I think there might be gender gap, but I will worry about it when men stop earning 1 dollar to a woman's 80 cents in wages. Until then, let the girls have their A. That women are winning in the Grading curve, is sadly diminished by the fact that the grading curve has lost much of its connection to real knowledge of a subject.

    I wish however I could link to the XKCD strip about Girl sucking at math Vs. Boys sucking at Math.

    Short story told: Boy suck at math: "You sure suck at math". Girl Suck at math "Girls sure such at math".

    Communicating from the last of the Babylon Stations.
  • HounHoun Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    Of course, Kipling. The whole subject is absolutely entangled in concepts of social normalcy and gender roles, to the point that no one can even tell if the observation being made has anything to do with anything.

    How do these numbers break down by race? By income? By area? Any of a thousand factors could be leading to this, but we have no information on it, so we're all idly speculating and deconstructing arguments made by authors and scientists who also have agendas and haven't looked at, or at least published, the whole picture.

    Houn on
    Steam: DigitalArcanist | PSN: DigitalArcanist | NNID: DigitalArcanist | Backloggery: Houn
  • TerribleMisathropeTerribleMisathrope 23rd Degree Intiate At The Right Hand Of The Seven HornsRegistered User regular
    edited July 2012
    I think there might be gender gap, but I will worry about it when men stop earning 1 dollar to a woman's 80 cents in wages. Until then, let the girls have their A. That women are winning in the Grading curve, is sadly diminished by the fact that the grading curve has lost much of its connection to real knowledge of a subject.

    I wish however I could link to the XKCD strip about Girl sucking at math Vs. Boys sucking at Math.

    Short story told: Boy suck at math: "You sure suck at math". Girl Suck at math "Girls sure such at math".
    Good on you for empathizing with females in their seemingly perpetual underpayment, but the solution is to pay them more not educate males less. I'm pretty unhappy that my wife has always been paid 20%-50% less than equivalently titled males, even me, but that is a stupid reason to decide not to give a shit about males. Wouldn't you say @bowen, @houn, @namrok, @feral and @Lilnoobs?

    Surely this is a real problem and deserving of attention despite the fact that men still generally get paid more. Autism and ADHD problems are fairly easily explained, but the hypothesis presented in the OP about the porn+video game addiction is asinine and clearly a symptom of a larger problem not the cause of comparatively poor performing males in the workforce and school.

    Now that I think of it, the very fact that women are underpaid is probably leading directly to a lower average success rate of working males compared to females, since only a complete idiot would promote or hire a male at a higher cost than a female. Do you really want to advocate lowering men's standard of living because women are a cheaper way to get the job done, instead of raising up women's standard of pay and living because they deserve the same pay for the same work, or do you want to reconsider that position?

    TerribleMisathrope on
    The One Can't-Do-Without Source Of Underground Metal: http://autothrall.blogspot.com/
  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    I think there might be gender gap, but I will worry about it when men stop earning 1 dollar to a woman's 80 cents in wages.

    "I think there might be a gender gap but I'll worry about women earning 80 cents for every dollar men make when girls stop outperforming boys in state schools"

    "I think there might be two gender gaps, but I'll worry about those when blacks stop being hideously over-represented in the prison population"

    Two wrongs don't makre a right; two discriminations don't make an equality.


    EDIT: Just to make it crystal clear why you're being the silliest of geese: the man that are discriminating against the women earning those 80 cents are different people from the males whom the school system is failing. Ignoring the discrimination against male A because it "equalises" the discrimination caused by male B is just bad logic and weak thinking.

    V1m on
  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    I have absolutely 0 problem with women getting paid equal to men. I'd prefer it. It strengthens the labor pool in general. Well... assuming men don't get bumped down to the scale women make. That hurts everyone. But would not shock me, at all.

    Though one wonders if this discrepancy is how well they interview and negotiate salary. Maybe men or more aggressive and value themselves more, whilst women are more conservative and value themselves less?

  • HounHoun Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    I have absolutely 0 problem with women getting paid equal to men. I'd prefer it. It strengthens the labor pool in general. Well... assuming men don't get bumped down to the scale women make. That hurts everyone. But would not shock me, at all.

    Though one wonders if this discrepancy is how well they interview and negotiate salary. Maybe men or more aggressive and value themselves more, whilst women are more conservative and value themselves less?

    I thought that it was because women tend to traditionally take lower-paying jobs/careers than men do, and that is reflected in the statistics.

    Steam: DigitalArcanist | PSN: DigitalArcanist | NNID: DigitalArcanist | Backloggery: Houn
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    A lot of this need to define Millennial young adults with these labels comes from the fact that many Millenials are rejecting prior norms that previous generations took as the way of the world, and that these previous generations feel that they have to label this conduct as aberrant. Needless to say, I reject that.

    Except the fact that we now have a significant post-education workforce sub-population that has, for whatever reasons, a lot of similarities to adolescents. Maybe it is the rejection of the norms of previous generations. Those of us with spouses and kids see them as adults who have chosen not to be real adults yet. I see it as a combination of things, mainly a lot of baby boomer money still going to their kids who are "on their own" but are not really kids nor really on their own, coupled with he fact that people are waiting later and later to get married and have kids, instead of seeing it as the next phase of life as soon as you graduate. But it's not mainly that they don't have spouses and kids that defines them, but more the carefree hedo thing. Most of them likely will have spouses and houses and kids eventually. This is the first time where that stage of life has significantly extended beyond school for a large portion of the population, and that is having effects.

    And I don't think it's about the current economy. This has been going on for longer than that.


    @Houn I loved your self-description. It is me, except 1) 1977 2) 3 kids 3) I was socially mediocre rather than awkward and that has helped a lot so that 4) I can almost always avoid getting the blues. But otherwise every word describes me exactly.

    Namrok wrote: »
    Being a boy is almost considered a pathological problem in the public school system.

    I can attest to this with my experiences with my oldest son, but it would take a whole new thread. TL;DR he is extremely well-behaved both at home and at school, displays what I would call a genius level of empathy and consideration for others, is an advanced-level reader, imaginative, and can grasp new math and science concepts very quickly. But he has poor handwriting, and he struggles to start or stay focused on any long repetitive task. Hence, he is in special education, and we have been bullied by the school system into drugging him, which had a lot of bad effects but didn't help. One of the teachers pushed hard to get him into the gifted program instead, because she felt that was where he belonged. I don't care either way, I just feel like the whole system is totally screwed up. Can't you just try to work around his specific difficulties and leverage his talents and interests?

  • BagginsesBagginses __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2012
    Namrok wrote: »
    I was actually curious about my old high schools reading list this year. Hunger Games was on it for 10th grade. It actually seemed to have a better mix of fantasy than I recall, but no science fiction. There are a bunch of graphic novels oddly enough. That's weird to see on a summer reading list. Weirdly enough there are a lot of books about the Middle East and the Iraq War, so I guess they are trying to stay topical. It's hard for me to look back on it now and think if there was anything I'd want to read. My favorite books growing up were Frankenstein, The Island of Doctor Moreau, and War of the Worlds when I was in elementary school. I was reading anything by Ian M Banks I could get my hands on in Middle School. Come high school I was all about Dune and that whole series.

    I'm still a huge reader, went through A Game of Thrones through Dance with Dragons not long ago. Read volumes 1 - 3 of The Fall and Decline of the Roman Empire by Gibbon. Started on Malazan Book of the Fallen.

    What's weird that I've noticed is all my friends who used to be on ADD meds can't read. They literally can't. They cannot force themselves to concentrate that long. It's so bizarre. They had taken the meds long enough to get through school, and once they are off them they never learned how to cope with their own brain. So there goes reading.

    That's because you have to be pretty bad to get the meds, no matter what media hysteria might tell you. While ADD might look like just an unusually short attention span, the main opinion that I've seen is that it's a full functionality breakdown, with the main suspect being the function that allows most people to filter information. Essentially, people with ADD can't form a reading bubble.

    Personally, I'd try to go with the founding novels of each genre. Start them with James Janeway and Charles Perrault (perhaps preceded by A Little Pretty Pocket-Book), move to The History of Sandford and Merton, followed by the Brothers Grimm, Pushkin, and Hans Christian Andersen, and finished off with Treasure Island, Robinson Crusoe, and Oz. Move to Young Adult fiction with The Outsiders, then early sci-fi with The Time Machine and several short stories. Introduce fantasy with Tolkein, the novel with Chaucer, and literature in general with Beowulf and Gilgamesh. Might as well add some Azimov for modern sci-fi. Introduce novels with Waverley, then American novels with Scarlet Letter and Huck Finn, then some now-western works that I can't think up. Introduce the modern mode of writing with Henry James, horror with Dracula, Frankenstein, or Lovecraft, the yiddish tradition for American students with The Dybbuk. Dust with some Tolstoy or Dostoyevsky, and then introduce war with Paradise Lost or A Farewell to Arms. Maybe go back to H. G. Wells for some economic concerns in Tono Bungay. At this point, it's probably best to get to Shakespeare and modernist mode with Finnegans Wakeor Ulysses. To finish off, put in the mid-century flowering of minority and postcolonial fiction (Léopold Sédar Senghor?) and reemergence of the female author (Clare Winger Harris, Joanna Russ, and Ursula K. Le Guin are options). Mix in some contemporary works that reflect the current standards of the genres, such as Lauren Beukes, Harry Potter, Hunger Games, and IQ84 where age appropriate.

    Bagginses on
  • TerribleMisathropeTerribleMisathrope 23rd Degree Intiate At The Right Hand Of The Seven HornsRegistered User regular
    Yar wrote: »
    A lot of this need to define Millennial young adults with these labels comes from the fact that many Millenials are rejecting prior norms that previous generations took as the way of the world, and that these previous generations feel that they have to label this conduct as aberrant. Needless to say, I reject that.

    Except the fact that we now have a significant post-education workforce sub-population that has, for whatever reasons, a lot of similarities to adolescents. Maybe it is the rejection of the norms of previous generations. Those of us with spouses and kids see them as adults who have chosen not to be real adults yet. I see it as a combination of things, mainly a lot of baby boomer money still going to their kids who are "on their own" but are not really kids nor really on their own, coupled with he fact that people are waiting later and later to get married and have kids, instead of seeing it as the next phase of life as soon as you graduate. But it's not mainly that they don't have spouses and kids that defines them, but more the carefree hedo thing. Most of them likely will have spouses and houses and kids eventually. This is the first time where that stage of life has significantly extended beyond school for a large portion of the population, and that is having effects.

    And I don't think it's about the current economy. This has been going on for longer than that.



    @Houn I loved your self-description. It is me, except 1) 1977 2) 3 kids 3) I was socially mediocre rather than awkward and that has helped a lot so that 4) I can almost always avoid getting the blues. But otherwise every word describes me exactly.

    Namrok wrote: »
    Being a boy is almost considered a pathological problem in the public school system.

    I can attest to this with my experiences with my oldest son, but it would take a whole new thread. TL;DR he is extremely well-behaved both at home and at school, displays what I would call a genius level of empathy and consideration for others, is an advanced-level reader, imaginative, and can grasp new math and science concepts very quickly. But he has poor handwriting, and he struggles to start or stay focused on any long repetitive task. Hence, he is in special education, and we have been bullied by the school system into drugging him, which had a lot of bad effects but didn't help. One of the teachers pushed hard to get him into the gifted program instead, because she felt that was where he belonged. I don't care either way, I just feel like the whole system is totally screwed up. Can't you just try to work around his specific difficulties and leverage his talents and interests?
    I like everything you have to say except I still think that recently the extended adolescence has become much more obvious and popular than it was prior to 2008 in large part due to the poor economy. You're right that there was a trend which preceded that happening, but to ignore that as a major contributing factor to the palpable increase in those life choices subsequent to the economic crash is putting on blinders in my view. There have been literally dozens of NPR stories about how the economic crash has contributed to this phenomenon, but if you chose to believe that the economic crash had no effect that is your prerogative. Beside, it would be better to stop bringing up tangents, unless you want Tosh to close this thread too.

    As a dad of very similar boys to your own, but not yet in school, I truly empathize with your family's plight with regard to your son. I also fear mine will end up in the same situation and it makes me sick with rage and frustration.

    The One Can't-Do-Without Source Of Underground Metal: http://autothrall.blogspot.com/
  • JuliusJulius Registered User regular
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    I think there might be gender gap, but I will worry about it when men stop earning 1 dollar to a woman's 80 cents in wages.

    The thing is that when looking at young people this is no longer the case. The wage gap is heavily influenced by older generations in numerous ways, including choice of career and hours worked and all other kinds of jazz.

    Correcting for stuff like different careers and industries you get to like 95 cents on the dollar and that's before we account for salary negotiation (which we actually can't). Paying women less for the same job is illegal. Wage discrimination can only happen on other levels which can only be changed through changing attitudes and that is already happening.

    Also, as V1m pointed out, the men earning more than women does not apply to kids and students.

  • HounHoun Registered User regular
    Yeah, Yar, my son is very similar to yours, but luckily he tested into the Advanced Placement program, so he'll be starting in that environment next year, 2nd grade. I'm really hoping the structure of encouraging self-learning and focusing on topics exclusively for short bursts will mesh better with his interests and keep him engaged.

    Steam: DigitalArcanist | PSN: DigitalArcanist | NNID: DigitalArcanist | Backloggery: Houn
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    I think the largest source of this behaviour is that people just aren't getting married and popping out the kids right out of university anymore.

    So you graduate and you get a job. You are now young, single/dating/no kids/whatever and have alot of free time/disposable income. So you do the things you want to do.

    The whole implication of the stupid "preadulthood" term is that this constitutes being juvenile. That real adults suffer and do things they hate because they have to.

    It's a seriously fucked up version of maturity based in some crazy patriarchal capitalist mentality. The entire idea depends on associating spending your money on enjoying yourself and doing things you find fun/interesting with being frivolous and immature.

    shryke on
  • dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    Yar wrote: »
    Those of us with spouses and kids see them as adults who have chosen not to be real adults yet.

    "Real", of course, being defined as "doing what you did"?

    I won't be having kids. I may or may not marry. I'm your age.

    And you bet your ass I'm a "real adult". So are you. "Adulthood" is not predicated on pair-bonding and reproduction.

    dporowski on
  • HounHoun Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    I think the largest source of this behaviour is that people just aren't getting married and popping out the kids right out of university anymore.

    So you graduate and you get a job. You are now young, single/dating/no kids/whatever and have alot of free time/disposable income. So you do the things you want to do.

    The whole implication of the stupid "preadulthood" term is that this constitutes being juvenile. That real adults suffer and do things they hate because they have to.

    It's a seriously fucked up version of maturity based in some crazy patriarchal capitalist mentality. The entire idea depends on associating spending your money on enjoying yourself and doing things you find fun/interesting with being frivolous and immature.

    I dunno if it's capitalist. Patriarchal, maybe, I can buy an argument for it. If anything, it seems more like it boils down to "When I became a Man, I put down childish things" bit. Of course, in putting down childish things, I believe most of us then picked up stress, over-inflated senses of responsibility, and a pathological worship of self-sacrifice to replace them. Or is that just me?

    Steam: DigitalArcanist | PSN: DigitalArcanist | NNID: DigitalArcanist | Backloggery: Houn
  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    No it's not just you.

  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    Anecdote time:

    My wife's boss has 3 kids 27,26,24. all 3 live at home. only 1 of them has a full time job. they show no interest in moving out or working. It is delaying the boss's retirement by a decade providing for a family of 5 in the now. Sure the economy stinks but they aren't even trying and all have college degrees.

    Yes, they are adults, but I would hardly put them in the same echelon as myself on the "responsibility for self" spectrum. I am not dependent on another person wholly for the basics of life.

  • JuliusJulius Registered User regular
    Yar wrote: »
    A lot of this need to define Millennial young adults with these labels comes from the fact that many Millenials are rejecting prior norms that previous generations took as the way of the world, and that these previous generations feel that they have to label this conduct as aberrant. Needless to say, I reject that.

    Except the fact that we now have a significant post-education workforce sub-population that has, for whatever reasons, a lot of similarities to adolescents. Maybe it is the rejection of the norms of previous generations. Those of us with spouses and kids see them as adults who have chosen not to be real adults yet. I see it as a combination of things, mainly a lot of baby boomer money still going to their kids who are "on their own" but are not really kids nor really on their own, coupled with he fact that people are waiting later and later to get married and have kids, instead of seeing it as the next phase of life as soon as you graduate. But it's not mainly that they don't have spouses and kids that defines them, but more the carefree hedo thing. Most of them likely will have spouses and houses and kids eventually. This is the first time where that stage of life has significantly extended beyond school for a large portion of the population, and that is having effects.

    And I don't think it's about the current economy. This has been going on for longer than that.

    I think economy has something to do with it, but there is also social and medical factors and a whole host of other shit. This thing where people hold off on spouses and kids and a real career is nothing new, this is just the first time where so many people can actually do that.

  • NumiNumi Registered User regular
    I doubt we will see any real change until men start moving into traditionally female occupations in the same way that woman are moving into traditionally male ones. Unfortunately there is far less upside for men doing that since you lose money, power and prestige unlike woman breaking into male dominated fields.

    A better gender balance among staff in for instance kindergarten and the lower tiers of eduction would help not just the professions but also the provide a less artificial gender-environment for both boys and girls. There is also a need to examine the way we socialize primarily young boys not to be communicators by only issuing them orders unlike girls where the current norm is discussion.

  • CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    I feel the notion that you're supposed to get married and have kids following graduating from college (that is getting a bachelor's degree) in your 20's, in order to be a "real" adult, is flat-out antiquated. There are certainly (developing) characteristics unique to this phenomenon of "pre-adulthood," which are likely a combination of economic recession and various social factors, which need to be looked at and discussed earnestly.

    However "not getting married/having kids in your 20's" should be the absolute last thing for people to be fretting over. My parents didn't have me (the oldest), until my mom was in her early 30's, my dad on the cusp of 30 (being the younger one of the couple). They were born in the late 50's and early 60's respectively.

    CptKemzik on
  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    this idea of people not wanting to get some crappy job and working hard for 'success' isn't new. this is from 1983:



    it makes me think of dave chappelle and his summary of his life "I work on chappelle show for 23 hours a day, raise my kids for 30-40 minutes maybe sleep 15 minutes then go back to work" and even with the offer of $50 million dollars he said fuck it and went and live in a hut in africa(note: I don't know if he lived in a hut)

    I feel the same way. monetary success isn't important. relationships are too much work. I don't want to do any of that stuff.

  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    dporowski wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Those of us with spouses and kids see them as adults who have chosen not to be real adults yet.

    "Real", of course, being defined as "doing what you did"?

    I won't be having kids. I may or may not marry. I'm your age.

    And you bet your ass I'm a "real adult". So are you. "Adulthood" is not predicated on pair-bonding and reproduction.

    Yeah, It seems Yar is making a sketchy implication regarding adulthood, and what qualifiers surround it. Certainly one can be child free and unmarried without being hedonistic.

    It seems necessary to clarify whether adulthood is defined biologically, or if it's granted by the dominant(through numbers/power) group representing 'adulthood'. Let's say that those who Yar considers as not 'real' adults define themselves as such. Who is in the right(if such is to be had)? If this supposed group of youths undertakes a new meaning of responsibility and how it will be defined by their generation, why is this negative? It just seems like change is bad sentiment at this point.

    Lucid on
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Lucid wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Those of us with spouses and kids see them as adults who have chosen not to be real adults yet.

    "Real", of course, being defined as "doing what you did"?

    I won't be having kids. I may or may not marry. I'm your age.

    And you bet your ass I'm a "real adult". So are you. "Adulthood" is not predicated on pair-bonding and reproduction.

    Yeah, It seems Yar is making a sketchy implication regarding adulthood, and what qualifiers surround it. Certainly one can be child free and unmarried without being hedonistic.

    It seems necessary to clarify whether adulthood is defined biologically, or if it's granted by the dominant(through numbers/power) group representing 'adulthood'. Let's say that those who Yar considers as not 'real' adults define themselves as such. Who is in the right(if such is to be had)? If this supposed group of youths undertakes a new meaning of responsibility and how it will be defined by their generation, why is this negative? It just seems like change is bad sentiment at this point.

    It's pretty easy to figure out - if you are saying that someone is not an adult because they haven't made the same choices as you, the problem is not that they are childish, but that you are a judgemental goose.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum
    Spoiler:
  • SkyGheNeSkyGheNe Registered User regular
    There are a lot of factors that go into this, but I feel as if one is this: as a suppressed minority as little as 40-50 years ago, it's no wonder that they are excelling.

    Now that the law has evened out the playing field a little bit (ie: no descrimination), I'm sure the determination to prove people wrong is a strong force in a woman's life.

    I think this is a good example of that (and also one of the saddest articles I've read in a long time! We've got quite the fucked up culture).

    http://lifeinc.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/17/12790329-new-yahoo-ceo-says-shell-work-through-maternity-leave?lite

    sig.jpg
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    It's pretty easy to figure out - if you are saying that someone is not an adult because they haven't made the same choices as you, the problem is not that they are childish, but that you are a judgemental goose.

    Well, if such is the case(the goosehood, though I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt), then why? What makes previous generations hold new ones in contempt for not conforming to their expectations(and where do they come from)? Is it mere conservative psychology at work here, or is there more to it, and if so, what?

    Lucid on
  • Giggles_FunsworthGiggles_Funsworth Paranoiac Bay Area SprawlRegistered User regular
    There isn't actually a wide spread pay gap. Those statistics are drawn from median earnings of men and women as a whole, not in specific roles, and women who prefer to be stay at home moms throw the equation all out of whack. Not to mention women who are attracted to more family friendly, less demanding jobs...that pay less, while relying on their husband to be the breadwinner.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    There isn't actually a wide spread pay gap. Those statistics are drawn from median earnings of men and women as a whole, not in specific roles, and women who prefer to be stay at home moms throw the equation all out of whack. Not to mention women who are attracted to more family friendly, less demanding jobs...that pay less, while relying on their husband to be the breadwinner.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/

    You...do know that there are studies that correct for all that and show the pay gap exists, right?

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum
    Spoiler:
  • Giggles_FunsworthGiggles_Funsworth Paranoiac Bay Area SprawlRegistered User regular
    edited July 2012
    There isn't actually a wide spread pay gap. Those statistics are drawn from median earnings of men and women as a whole, not in specific roles, and women who prefer to be stay at home moms throw the equation all out of whack. Not to mention women who are attracted to more family friendly, less demanding jobs...that pay less, while relying on their husband to be the breadwinner.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/

    You...do know that there are studies that correct for all that and show the pay gap exists, right?

    Source?

    EDIT: I've looked around a little bit and everything I could find is grouped by industry and not actual job title, which is a huge deviation to leave out.

    Giggles_Funsworth on
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  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    Well if we want to deconstruct what adulthood means I definitely think that self sufficiency in the abstract is a generally agreeable marker of no longer being a child. And I can't wait to see some of the goosey extrapolations of my statement such as "People that can't open pickle jars aren't adults, hmmmmmmmm? Quadriplegic people aren't adults, hmmmmmmmmm? People on welfare or SSDI aren't adults, hmmmmmmmmm?"

    Like i said, in the abstract and most general ways, self sufficiency for basic needs makes you more of an adult for most people. If you live in your mom's basement and don't have a job because you prefer to spend most of your time playing WoW then I'd argue that not only are there bigger issues at play than just adulthood, but that you are in fact may be a semi adult.

    mrt144 on
  • dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    Lucid wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Those of us with spouses and kids see them as adults who have chosen not to be real adults yet.

    "Real", of course, being defined as "doing what you did"?

    I won't be having kids. I may or may not marry. I'm your age.

    And you bet your ass I'm a "real adult". So are you. "Adulthood" is not predicated on pair-bonding and reproduction.

    Yeah, It seems Yar is making a sketchy implication regarding adulthood, and what qualifiers surround it. Certainly one can be child free and unmarried without being hedonistic.

    It seems necessary to clarify whether adulthood is defined biologically, or if it's granted by the dominant(through numbers/power) group representing 'adulthood'. Let's say that those who Yar considers as not 'real' adults define themselves as such. Who is in the right(if such is to be had)? If this supposed group of youths undertakes a new meaning of responsibility and how it will be defined by their generation, why is this negative? It just seems like change is bad sentiment at this point.

    I could even be downright hedonistic if I wished; I am still an adult, and I may still choose to do so.

    I mean what's the point of defining "adulthood" as "does shit they don't want to and doesn't do shit they do"? I think we all accept "you gotta get shit done", and sometimes, you don't want to do that shit. Making that happen, I'd say that's a mark of maturity.

    But I am not more adult/mature simply because I deny myself more things.

  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    Yeah, asceticism is not the mark of an adult.

  • HounHoun Registered User regular
    mrt144 wrote: »
    Yeah, asceticism is not the mark of an adult.

    "Is not", or "should not"? Because I can definitely make a case that it has been and continues to be used as a measuring stick in American culture.

    Steam: DigitalArcanist | PSN: DigitalArcanist | NNID: DigitalArcanist | Backloggery: Houn
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    Houn wrote: »
    mrt144 wrote: »
    Yeah, asceticism is not the mark of an adult.

    "Is not", or "should not"? Because I can definitely make a case that it has been and continues to be used as a measuring stick in American culture.

    If asceticism was truly valued we wouldn't have American problem of conspicuous consumption. To me you can't have asceticism mean anything in American culture where forgoing the purchase of luxury goods is considered "forgoing for the greater good of the family unit".

  • HounHoun Registered User regular
    mrt144 wrote: »
    Houn wrote: »
    mrt144 wrote: »
    Yeah, asceticism is not the mark of an adult.

    "Is not", or "should not"? Because I can definitely make a case that it has been and continues to be used as a measuring stick in American culture.

    If asceticism was truly valued we wouldn't have American problem of conspicuous consumption. To me you can't have asceticism mean anything in American culture where forgoing the purchase of luxury goods is considered "forgoing for the greater good of the family unit".

    This is kinda the ideal we were talking about. If you don't want to call it asceticism, that's fine, but you're the one that first used the word. ;-)

    Steam: DigitalArcanist | PSN: DigitalArcanist | NNID: DigitalArcanist | Backloggery: Houn
  • ThejakemanThejakeman Registered User
    Stopped reading at "One prominent Psychologist, Philip Zimbardo, who wrote The Demise of Guys, attributes excessive Internet use to the social dysfunction and under-performance of boys."

    This is a fancy way of repeating the nonsense that is "there are no girls on the internet." Actual statistics of internet usage show that both men and women use the internet in similar numbers. Quick google.

    The "why" is as nebulous as the "how," here, but I understand that as we move towards an entirely service economy in this country women will be more likely to be employed simply because women are raised to accept service jobs. Men in this country are still raised with the idea that they should be managers or constructors or something where they're not subservient and as such it's harder for men to acclimate to service industry jobs where they have to be explicitly subservient.

    Gonna ditch this thread before someone tells me that gender roles don't exist or something.

  • ShurakaiShurakai Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    Keep in mind that all these statistics are in some way or another related to school.

    Yes, even ADHD, which is merely the inability to adjust to a school-type environment, much of the time.

    "Girls Outperforming Boys" is the same as saying " Girls Fit our one-size-fits-all system better than boys. Obviously the boys are to blame for this."

    Our current educational system suits the temperament of the majority of girls more than the majority of boys. From no-tolerance violence policies (roughousing among friends is a natural part of a boys development), to making an active young child sit in a chair and listen to an adult talk, the modern school environment simply affects and restricts the behavior of most males to a greater degree than most females.

    Shurakai on
  • ThejakemanThejakeman Registered User
    Shurakai wrote: »
    Keep in mind that all these statistics are in some way or another related to school.

    Yes, even ADHD, which is merely the inability to adjust to a school-type environment, much of the time.

    "Girls Outperforming Boys" is the same as saying " Girls Fit our one-size-fits-all system better than boys. Obviously the boys are to blame for this."

    Our current educational system suits the temperament of the majority of girls more than the majority of boys. From no-tolerance violence policies (roughousing among friends is a natural part of a boys development), to making an active young child sit in a chair and listen to an adult talk, the modern school environment simply affects and restricts the behavior of most males to a greater degree than most females.

    Yes, men are just naturally physically violent and women are inherently prim and bashful little creatures. And asians are good at math and mexicans are lazy.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax Bondage Discipline Spider-Man Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    Thejakeman wrote: »
    Shurakai wrote: »
    Keep in mind that all these statistics are in some way or another related to school.

    Yes, even ADHD, which is merely the inability to adjust to a school-type environment, much of the time.

    "Girls Outperforming Boys" is the same as saying " Girls Fit our one-size-fits-all system better than boys. Obviously the boys are to blame for this."

    Our current educational system suits the temperament of the majority of girls more than the majority of boys. From no-tolerance violence policies (roughousing among friends is a natural part of a boys development), to making an active young child sit in a chair and listen to an adult talk, the modern school environment simply affects and restricts the behavior of most males to a greater degree than most females.

    Yes, men are just naturally physically violent and women are inherently prim and bashful little creatures. And asians are good at math and mexicans are lazy.

    To be fair, he was doing perfectly well until he tried some psuedo evo-psych stuff. Those are three good points to discuss.

    Fencingsax on
    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • ShurakaiShurakai Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    I like strong statements, what can I say.

    Would you agree that males are different from females, on average? Or is that too controversial a statement?

    Boys tend to be more violent then girls. Girls tend to me more calm and accepting of authority than boys. I don't think that is going too far.

    Shurakai on
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