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The American Presidency: The Once and Future Elections Thread

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  • TheBlackWindTheBlackWind Registered User regular
    Honest Romney: it's only democracy if you pick the guy we want.

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  • HenroidHenroid Baba Booey to y'all Tyler, TX (where hope comes to die!)Registered User regular
    Qingu wrote: »
    So this is the scariest thing I've seen from Romney ... which is saying a lot. It's an interview with an Israeli paper.

    This is maybe the most fucked-up quote I've ever read.
    The Arab Spring is not appropriately named. It has become a development of more concern and it occurred in part because of the reluctance on the part of various dictators to provide more freedom to their citizens. President [George W.] Bush urged [deposed Egyptian President] Hosni Mubarak to move toward a more democratic posture, but President Obama abandoned the freedom agenda and we are seeing today a whirlwind of tumult in the Middle East in part because these nations did not embrace the reforms that could have changed the course of their history, in a more peaceful manner.

    Romney conceives "abandoning support of dictators in favor of democratic movements" as "abandoning the freedom agenda."

    Maybe it's his "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" card.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Veep is gonna be Portman or Pawlenty, unless Mitt is well and truly desperate come the convention, in which case he may pull a McCain, going totally off the reservation. I'm inclined to say that it's going to be Portman, though.

    Romney won't go off the reservation. He's not a maverick. No-one wants to be his "Goose".

    Aren't VP picks supposed to be somewhat energizing to the election, though? Who the hell would get excited if he picks either of those names?

    That's another little problem Rmoney has to solve. Willard can always pull a Caligula and nominate his dancing horse. :mrgreen:

    Harry Dresden on
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. Risk is our business.Registered User regular
    Honest Romney: it's only democracy if you pick the guy we want.

    This isn't really a new attitude among the right honestly.

    That quote isn't as big a deal as we might like it to be, not unless Obama can use it to energize his voting base.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • HacksawHacksaw The "New Scum" Registered User regular
    I'm reasonably certain one of the finalists in the running for the Veepstakes is Kathy McMorris Rodgers. Calling it now.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    So this is the scariest thing I've seen from Romney ... which is saying a lot. It's an interview with an Israeli paper.

    This is maybe the most fucked-up quote I've ever read.
    The Arab Spring is not appropriately named. It has become a development of more concern and it occurred in part because of the reluctance on the part of various dictators to provide more freedom to their citizens. President [George W.] Bush urged [deposed Egyptian President] Hosni Mubarak to move toward a more democratic posture, but President Obama abandoned the freedom agenda and we are seeing today a whirlwind of tumult in the Middle East in part because these nations did not embrace the reforms that could have changed the course of their history, in a more peaceful manner.

    Romney conceives "abandoning support of dictators in favor of democratic movements" as "abandoning the freedom agenda."

    Maybe it's his "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" card.

    It'd also come in handy when they want a war to fight when their puppet regimes bite them in the ass like clockwork.

  • SotextliSotextli Registered User regular
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Veep is gonna be Portman or Pawlenty, unless Mitt is well and truly desperate come the convention, in which case he may pull a McCain, going totally off the reservation. I'm inclined to say that it's going to be Portman, though.

    Romney won't go off the reservation. He's not a maverick. No-one wants to be his "Goose".

    Aren't VP picks supposed to be somewhat energizing to the election, though? Who the hell would get excited if he picks either of those names?

    I don't mean for this to sound flippant, but who did Dick Cheney energize? Or Gore? Or Biden for that matter? I've heard more about Biden, getting blue collar white workers on the side of the half-black son of a single mother elitist (lol), but I never bought into that idea. Is there any data that really points to the idea that the purpose of a running mate was to energize the voting public? Or rather, that such attempts have been at all successful? Just from anecdotal experience I can say that a lot of folks took one look at Palin and said "What the fuck, McCain?!"

  • shrykeshryke Registered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    He believes, at least a bit, the idea that rich people are better people and poor people need less handouts and more "incentivizing" and so on.

    I think that's a bit presumptuous, and mean spirited towards the guy. Of course there's the problem that we don't know what the fuck he believes on any topic.

    This is basic Randian bullshit, which pretty much is right wing philosophy.

    Randianism really doesn't represent the mainstream right. If it did Ron Paul would have coasted through the primaries.

    Ron Paul isn't "real" Randianism either.

    The GOP took many of the ideas of Ayn Rand (mostly the prosperity gospel/fuck the poor stuff) and ditched the rest (like the anti-religion stuff).

    enlightenedbum
  • SotextliSotextli Registered User regular
    Yeah I guess to be fair it has more to do with Calvinism than it does Randianism.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Sot:

    Palin did energize the right for a while. They salivated over her during her first speech. The GOP's interest waned when they were constantly barraged with reality that she was a brain-dead nutcase.

  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    This isn't really a new attitude among the right honestly.

    That quote isn't as big a deal as we might like it to be, not unless Obama can use it to energize his voting base.
    You are probably right. I remember the conservative fella on here (spool?) basically saying the same thing, though I'm not sure if that was actually what he meant to say?

    In any case, I'd love to see some polls on American attitudes towards the Arab Spring. How widespread is the view that we should have thrown down behind Mubarak to prevent the Muslim Brotherhood from taking over?

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    Sotextli wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Veep is gonna be Portman or Pawlenty, unless Mitt is well and truly desperate come the convention, in which case he may pull a McCain, going totally off the reservation. I'm inclined to say that it's going to be Portman, though.

    Romney won't go off the reservation. He's not a maverick. No-one wants to be his "Goose".

    Aren't VP picks supposed to be somewhat energizing to the election, though? Who the hell would get excited if he picks either of those names?
    I don't mean for this to sound flippant, but who did Dick Cheney energize? Or Gore? Or Biden for that matter? I've heard more about Biden, getting blue collar white workers on the side of the half-black son of a single mother elitist (lol), but I never bought into that idea. Is there any data that really points to the idea that the purpose of a running mate was to energize the voting public? Or rather, that such attempts have been at all successful? Just from anecdotal experience I can say that a lot of folks took one look at Palin and said "What the fuck, McCain?!"
    There are a lot of reasons VPs get chosen. It varies from election to election. Palin was absolutely chosen to energize the ticket. Biden was chosen for being an old, white guy, and his foreign policy credentials. Gore was seen as strong on the environment, unlike Clinton. Cheney was selected because they needed someone actually capable of running the country in the White House.

    Romney is looking for someone who isn't going to outshine him. That's a very short list. Portman is from Ohio, which is a must-win state for Romney. The reason I don't think they're going to go for an "energizing" candidate is that old adage "once bitten, twice shy." They're looking for the anti-Sarah Palin, I think. Of course, my crystal ball isn't any better than anyone else's.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    Qingu wrote: »
    So this is the scariest thing I've seen from Romney ... which is saying a lot. It's an interview with an Israeli paper.

    This is maybe the most fucked-up quote I've ever read.
    The Arab Spring is not appropriately named. It has become a development of more concern and it occurred in part because of the reluctance on the part of various dictators to provide more freedom to their citizens. President [George W.] Bush urged [deposed Egyptian President] Hosni Mubarak to move toward a more democratic posture, but President Obama abandoned the freedom agenda and we are seeing today a whirlwind of tumult in the Middle East in part because these nations did not embrace the reforms that could have changed the course of their history, in a more peaceful manner.

    Romney conceives "abandoning support of dictators in favor of democratic movements" as "abandoning the freedom agenda."
    The Republicans are going to criticize our Middle East policy no matter what we do. When it comes to much of the Middle East, you can choose two: stable, democratic, or secular. Frequently, you can't even get two of the three (see also: Saudi Arabia). As I've gotten older, I think I'm coming around to the idea of very limited interventionism over there, which is largely the policy the Obama administration seems to be pursuing; the less we intervene, the less we can fuck shit up.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. Risk is our business.Registered User regular
    Qingu wrote: »
    This isn't really a new attitude among the right honestly.

    That quote isn't as big a deal as we might like it to be, not unless Obama can use it to energize his voting base.
    You are probably right. I remember the conservative fella on here (spool?) basically saying the same thing, though I'm not sure if that was actually what he meant to say?

    In any case, I'd love to see some polls on American attitudes towards the Arab Spring. How widespread is the view that we should have thrown down behind Mubarak to prevent the Muslim Brotherhood from taking over?

    I'm not sure, but there's also a strand of liberal interventionism that feels we should step in and "make things better". (Though admittedly, none of them are going to vote for Romney).

    A lot of people don't understand that sometimes the best thing to do is step the fuck back and wait.

    AManFromEarth on
    Lh96QHG.png
  • MillMill Registered User regular
    As terrible as that Romney quote is, and god is it terrible, AMFE is right about it not having much of an impact. Most of the people who find it abhorrent that he would rather have dictatorships over governments that the people there select aren't likely to vote for Romney anyways. I suppose that gaffe will cost him like 0.01% of the vote and might at best give Obama another 0.02% (I'll admit I'm pulling these numbers out of my ass).

    Sadly, the average American doesn't give a shit about foreign affairs. They only pay attention when something bad happens to us as a result of another country's policy. Plus, foreign affairs are taking mostly a back seat to domestic matters on the economy this election. Most people sitting on the face are very unlikely to let that quote end up being the deciding matter or even factoring into who they vote for. The London fuck up will probably have a bigger impact than the quote because Romney managed to fuck up in an area that was deemed impossible to fuck up. The average American isn't going to care too much about foreign affairs but they do want someone who can do that stuff and Romney kind of proved he can't.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Sotextli wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Veep is gonna be Portman or Pawlenty, unless Mitt is well and truly desperate come the convention, in which case he may pull a McCain, going totally off the reservation. I'm inclined to say that it's going to be Portman, though.

    Romney won't go off the reservation. He's not a maverick. No-one wants to be his "Goose".

    Aren't VP picks supposed to be somewhat energizing to the election, though? Who the hell would get excited if he picks either of those names?
    I don't mean for this to sound flippant, but who did Dick Cheney energize? Or Gore? Or Biden for that matter? I've heard more about Biden, getting blue collar white workers on the side of the half-black son of a single mother elitist (lol), but I never bought into that idea. Is there any data that really points to the idea that the purpose of a running mate was to energize the voting public? Or rather, that such attempts have been at all successful? Just from anecdotal experience I can say that a lot of folks took one look at Palin and said "What the fuck, McCain?!"
    There are a lot of reasons VPs get chosen. It varies from election to election. Palin was absolutely chosen to energize the ticket. Biden was chosen for being an old, white guy, and his foreign policy credentials. Gore was seen as strong on the environment, unlike Clinton. Cheney was selected because they needed someone actually capable of running the country in the White House.

    Romney is looking for someone who isn't going to outshine him. That's a very short list. Portman is from Ohio, which is a must-win state for Romney. The reason I don't think they're going to go for an "energizing" candidate is that old adage "once bitten, twice shy." They're looking for the anti-Sarah Palin, I think. Of course, my crystal ball isn't any better than anyone else's.

    They've admitted the last bit, I'm fairly sure. Which is why I'm with you on Portman.

    Whose speech at the convention will put everyone to bed nice and early on Wednesday.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    He believes, at least a bit, the idea that rich people are better people and poor people need less handouts and more "incentivizing" and so on.

    I think that's a bit presumptuous, and mean spirited towards the guy. Of course there's the problem that we don't know what the fuck he believes on any topic.

    This is basic Randian bullshit, which pretty much is right wing philosophy.

    Randianism really doesn't represent the mainstream right. If it did Ron Paul would have coasted through the primaries.

    Paul Ryan is as pretty mainstream right as you can get right now. Or Alan Greenspan. Who are coincidentally, probably the two most famous Rand disciples in America.

    Though shryke is right, they did ditch the anti-religion bits.

    My cousin made this game: Gem Pop. It's legitimately fun, particularly for people who enjoy Bejewled, Dr. Mario, Tetris, etc. kinds of games. Only two bucks! If you try it out, PM me with what you think of it.
  • MillMill Registered User regular
    So after a little more digging on info for Portman. On top of being blander than Romney, he also was part of Bush's administration and Romney seems to love to use people from that horrid administration.

    He's seems mostly in alignment with the typical GOP views. pro-Ryan plan, anti-choice, supported the blunt amendment and pro-guns. I'll see if i can track down the rest of his positions but I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that he'll help Romney and the GOP further alienate most minorities. Actually with the shooting in Colorado and the scare in Maryland, where we could have had a second mass shooting this month, his staunch support of the 2nd Amendment could prove to be a liability.

    With everything else going on, I'm pretty sure Romney wants to avoid getting caught up in the gun control debate if that has a new serious start. I'm not familiar enough with Portman to know if he'll shut up if told to do so or if he'll jump right in on the NRA's side. I don't see that debate helping anyone with a presidential run this year and the NRA/GOP position could prove to be rather harmful to such prospects.

  • MuzzmuzzMuzzmuzz Registered User regular
    Honest Romney: it's only democracy if you pick the guy we want.

    To be perfectly honest, he's not the only one like that in the West. When the Palestinians decided to vote out the more 'peaceful' but terribly corrupt Fatah (Arafat's party) a few years back and vote in Hamas (who is admittedly violent, but also promised to eliminate corruption, build infrastructure, you know, things most democratic governments try to do), Canada was one of the first to slam the doors on any diplomacy with the Palestinians, since they had voted for the wrong people.

  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Qingu wrote: »
    So this is the scariest thing I've seen from Romney ... which is saying a lot. It's an interview with an Israeli paper.

    This is maybe the most fucked-up quote I've ever read.
    The Arab Spring is not appropriately named. It has become a development of more concern and it occurred in part because of the reluctance on the part of various dictators to provide more freedom to their citizens. President [George W.] Bush urged [deposed Egyptian President] Hosni Mubarak to move toward a more democratic posture, but President Obama abandoned the freedom agenda and we are seeing today a whirlwind of tumult in the Middle East in part because these nations did not embrace the reforms that could have changed the course of their history, in a more peaceful manner.

    Romney conceives "abandoning support of dictators in favor of democratic movements" as "abandoning the freedom agenda."

    Bush urged Hosni Mubarak to move towards democracy. The dictator did nothing. At their request, Obama supported the people trying to actually move towards democracy and has refused to support the dictators. We have gotten democracy in several Middle Eastern countries.

    Only a retard would choose the Bush strategy. Dictators don't usually peacefully give up power just because you are trying to get them to be more democratic. They only give up power when they absolutely have to.

    Couscous on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/29/in-israel-romney-to-issue-unmistakable-warning-to-iran/
    At a press briefing before Mitt Romney's meetings with Israeli leaders on Sunday, the campaign's foreign policy adviser Dan Senor said the GOP contender would "respect" Israel's right to strike Iran unilaterally should the Islamic Republic develop nuclear weapons.

    “If Israel has to take action on its own, in order to stop Iran from developing that capability the governor would respect that decision," Senor said at the morning briefing.

    Romney ignored questions from reporters about Senor's comments hours later as he left a meeting with Israeli president Shimon Peres.

    The campaign then issued a far less ominous clarification from Senor.

    "Gov. Romney believes we should employ any and all measures to dissuade the Iranian regime from its nuclear course, and it is his fervent hope that diplomatic and economic measures will do so. In the final analysis, of course, no option should be excluded. Gov. Romney recognizes Israel's right to defend itself, and that it is right for America to stand with it," he said.

    ...

  • Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    Identical in every way to standing position of the US government.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    Qingu wrote: »
    So this is the scariest thing I've seen from Romney ... which is saying a lot. It's an interview with an Israeli paper.

    This is maybe the most fucked-up quote I've ever read.
    The Arab Spring is not appropriately named. It has become a development of more concern and it occurred in part because of the reluctance on the part of various dictators to provide more freedom to their citizens. President [George W.] Bush urged [deposed Egyptian President] Hosni Mubarak to move toward a more democratic posture, but President Obama abandoned the freedom agenda and we are seeing today a whirlwind of tumult in the Middle East in part because these nations did not embrace the reforms that could have changed the course of their history, in a more peaceful manner.

    Romney conceives "abandoning support of dictators in favor of democratic movements" as "abandoning the freedom agenda."

    Eh, it's clearly a conservative newspaper, so I assume the fact that he's expressing a view shared by many conservatives wasn't as alarming to them.


    Because 9% think it's too high, and shouldn't be cut! 9% of respondents could not fully
    get their arms around the question. There should be another box you can check for, "I
    have utterly no idea what you're talking about. Please, God, don't ask for my input."
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. Risk is our business.Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/29/in-israel-romney-to-issue-unmistakable-warning-to-iran/
    At a press briefing before Mitt Romney's meetings with Israeli leaders on Sunday, the campaign's foreign policy adviser Dan Senor said the GOP contender would "respect" Israel's right to strike Iran unilaterally should the Islamic Republic develop nuclear weapons.

    “If Israel has to take action on its own, in order to stop Iran from developing that capability the governor would respect that decision," Senor said at the morning briefing.

    Romney ignored questions from reporters about Senor's comments hours later as he left a meeting with Israeli president Shimon Peres.

    The campaign then issued a far less ominous clarification from Senor.

    "Gov. Romney believes we should employ any and all measures to dissuade the Iranian regime from its nuclear course, and it is his fervent hope that diplomatic and economic measures will do so. In the final analysis, of course, no option should be excluded. Gov. Romney recognizes Israel's right to defend itself, and that it is right for America to stand with it," he said.

    ...

    That seems about the same as everything that is said by any US politician.

    Better than the rumors that he was going to say Jerusalem should be controlled by Israel only at any rate.

    Maybe they're starting to leak batshit rumors so the "normal" talk doesn't seem so out there :twisted:

    Lh96QHG.png
  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    Jesus, reading this article and it's like Israeli Fox News or something. It's not even subtle.


    Because 9% think it's too high, and shouldn't be cut! 9% of respondents could not fully
    get their arms around the question. There should be another box you can check for, "I
    have utterly no idea what you're talking about. Please, God, don't ask for my input."
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    Maybe the main reason I find that so scary is that, unlike Romney's domestic policy proposals, he can pretty much do whatever he wants with regards to foreign policy. Some elements of the Republican party *have* moved away from Bush's neoconservatism and earlier administrations explicit support of dictators, towards something more like realism and a light footprint ... not Romney, apparently.

  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    Qingu wrote: »
    Maybe the main reason I find that so scary is that, unlike Romney's domestic policy proposals, he can pretty much do whatever he wants with regards to foreign policy. Some elements of the Republican party *have* moved away from Bush's neoconservatism and earlier administrations explicit support of dictators, towards something more like realism and a light footprint ... not Romney, apparently.

    I don't know enough about his foreign policy to have a broadly informed opinion (because he's saying very little about it), but yeah, the inclusion of Poland on the itinerary in particular is a pretty big sign that he's dusting off the G.W. Bush white papers. The Romney team says they included it as a stopover because Poland is one of those nations that has strained relations with the U.S. under Barack Obama. There's really only one American strategic interest that relates to Poland where we've seen a shift since the Obama administration, however: the Ballistic Missile Defense Shield. Nevermind that a huge part of the reason we abandoned that program is that nearly 60% of Poles were opposed to playing landlord to a defense installation which Russia promised was due to become the focal point of a new nuclear cold war.

    Also please ignore the fact that we've already moved on to a seaborn system that launches the interceptor vehicle from refitted Arleigh Burke-class Destroyers, obviating the need to strike a diplomatic compromise with Donald Rumsfeld's "New Europe," but whatevs. Let's all just sit back and listen to "You Forgot Poland 2: Electric Boogaloo."

    SammyF on
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  • HacksawHacksaw The "New Scum" Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Jesus, reading this article and it's like Israeli Fox News or something.

    Well, the paper is owned by Sheldon Adelson.

    So, it kind of is.

    MetroSig.png
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    @SammyF, if you read the long Israeli interview I poasted, Romney repeatedly criticizes New Start. He sees giving up the missile defense shield (ignoring that we're replacing it with a more practical one) as Chamberlain-style capitulation.

    I hope to God above Gods that Romney is simply lying through his teeth to appease Adelson.

  • HenroidHenroid Baba Booey to y'all Tyler, TX (where hope comes to die!)Registered User regular
    I haven't read the comments regarding Iran in full, but I did at least see a minor note about "diplomacy and economics first, then military action." The problem is that Republicans also include it for the sake of it and that's it; they only elaborate on the military action. They're just too fucking eager for it. Also, from the looks of things, the tone about "Iran wants nukes!" took a backseat finally and things focused on general Iranian hate of other peoples.

    So I'm giving the Romney camp like a penny's worth of credit, but I have to take away half of it because Romney question-dodged.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    I haven't read the comments regarding Iran in full, but I did at least see a minor note about "diplomacy and economics first, then military action." The problem is that Republicans also include it for the sake of it and that's it; they only elaborate on the military action. They're just too fucking eager for it. Also, from the looks of things, the tone about "Iran wants nukes!" took a backseat finally and things focused on general Iranian hate of other peoples.

    So I'm giving the Romney camp like a penny's worth of credit, but I have to take away half of it because Romney question-dodged.

    Yeah the GOP's recent foreign policy doesn't leave a lot of room for "diplomacy". Especially with the Bush people making up Rmoney's team of experts, if elected expect a lot more flag draped coffins to be forbidden from being shown by the media.

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Mill wrote: »
    The thing is for the two debates that Romney can prepare for, he can't really prepare for Obama's response, nor has he had to deal with someone of Obama's caliber in debates. I'm pretty sure Obama will rip Romney a new one during the first and last debates; especially, when Mitt the Twit starts lying.

    Is there any evidence the debates in modern times actually affect anything? Do we see changes in the polls?

    I know they sure as fuck don't affect the media response to them. There are three debates. Obama will win one of them, Romney will win one of them, and one will be a tie. If the media is feeling especially motivated, maybe they'll put some effort into tying the Romney win to the debate where he does least-bad, but I would guess it's all going to be pre-determined based on what they think will best further the horse-race narrative they want. I'm guessing they'll either go Obama-Romney-Tie (if they want some sort of underdog/comeback/this-will-be-so-close angle) or Obama-Tie-Romney (if they'd rather do a Romney-gradually-getting-better-but-can-he-close-the-deal? bit).

    As usual, they'll wind up tying "winning" the debate to overcoming some sort of media-defined fault. If Romney does particularly bad, he'll have "won" based on something like "he needed one human moment and he got one, TOTAL WIN" or "he made it almost fifteen consecutive minutes without outright insulting some major voting bloc, SUCCESS" or "he did not actually, technically burst into laughter when saying that one thing that was such obvious bullshit, FLAWLESS VICTORY." And the debate that goes to Obama will not be, "Wow, dude broke Romney's shit right off and then raped him with it," it will be couched as something like, "Obama picks up a narrow win there by avoiding discussion of the economy."

    It'll be a complete farce. I can't wait.

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  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. Risk is our business.Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Mill wrote: »
    The thing is for the two debates that Romney can prepare for, he can't really prepare for Obama's response, nor has he had to deal with someone of Obama's caliber in debates. I'm pretty sure Obama will rip Romney a new one during the first and last debates; especially, when Mitt the Twit starts lying.

    Is there any evidence the debates in modern times actually affect anything? Do we see changes in the polls?

    I know they sure as fuck don't affect the media response to them. There are three debates. Obama will win one of them, Romney will win one of them, and one will be a tie. If the media is feeling especially motivated, maybe they'll put some effort into tying the Romney win to the debate where he does least-bad, but I would guess it's all going to be pre-determined based on what they think will best further the horse-race narrative they want. I'm guessing they'll either go Obama-Romney-Tie (if they want some sort of underdog/comeback/this-will-be-so-close angle) or Obama-Tie-Romney (if they'd rather do a Romney-gradually-getting-better-but-can-he-close-the-deal? bit).

    As usual, they'll wind up tying "winning" the debate to overcoming some sort of media-defined fault. If Romney does particularly bad, he'll have "won" based on something like "he needed one human moment and he got one, TOTAL WIN" or "he made it almost fifteen consecutive minutes without outright insulting some major voting bloc, SUCCESS" or "he did not actually, technically burst into laughter when saying that one thing that was such obvious bullshit, FLAWLESS VICTORY." And the debate that goes to Obama will not be, "Wow, dude broke Romney's shit right off and then raped him with it," it will be couched as something like, "Obama picks up a narrow win there by avoiding discussion of the economy."

    It'll be a complete farce. I can't wait.

    But are we convinced Romney can actually have a human moment or go fifteen minutes without insulting someone?

    I guess that's why they'll hedge bets with option three.

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  • HenroidHenroid Baba Booey to y'all Tyler, TX (where hope comes to die!)Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    I haven't read the comments regarding Iran in full, but I did at least see a minor note about "diplomacy and economics first, then military action." The problem is that Republicans also include it for the sake of it and that's it; they only elaborate on the military action. They're just too fucking eager for it. Also, from the looks of things, the tone about "Iran wants nukes!" took a backseat finally and things focused on general Iranian hate of other peoples.

    So I'm giving the Romney camp like a penny's worth of credit, but I have to take away half of it because Romney question-dodged.

    Yeah the GOP's recent foreign policy doesn't leave a lot of room for "diplomacy". Especially with the Bush people making up Rmoney's team of experts, if elected expect a lot more flag draped coffins to be forbidden from being shown by the media.

    This is all doubly bad because aside from the GOP as a whole never elaborating on diplomatic options, Romney never elaborates on anything.

    "Ultima Online Pre-Trammel is the perfect example of why libertarians are full of shit." - @Ludious
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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Mill wrote: »
    The thing is for the two debates that Romney can prepare for, he can't really prepare for Obama's response, nor has he had to deal with someone of Obama's caliber in debates. I'm pretty sure Obama will rip Romney a new one during the first and last debates; especially, when Mitt the Twit starts lying.

    Is there any evidence the debates in modern times actually affect anything? Do we see changes in the polls?

    I know they sure as fuck don't affect the media response to them. There are three debates. Obama will win one of them, Romney will win one of them, and one will be a tie. If the media is feeling especially motivated, maybe they'll put some effort into tying the Romney win to the debate where he does least-bad, but I would guess it's all going to be pre-determined based on what they think will best further the horse-race narrative they want. I'm guessing they'll either go Obama-Romney-Tie (if they want some sort of underdog/comeback/this-will-be-so-close angle) or Obama-Tie-Romney (if they'd rather do a Romney-gradually-getting-better-but-can-he-close-the-deal? bit).

    As usual, they'll wind up tying "winning" the debate to overcoming some sort of media-defined fault. If Romney does particularly bad, he'll have "won" based on something like "he needed one human moment and he got one, TOTAL WIN" or "he made it almost fifteen consecutive minutes without outright insulting some major voting bloc, SUCCESS" or "he did not actually, technically burst into laughter when saying that one thing that was such obvious bullshit, FLAWLESS VICTORY." And the debate that goes to Obama will not be, "Wow, dude broke Romney's shit right off and then raped him with it," it will be couched as something like, "Obama picks up a narrow win there by avoiding discussion of the economy."

    It'll be a complete farce. I can't wait.

    McCain vs Obama saw more seperation post debate. And the media tried hard to say what you are saying with those debates (especially palin vs biden) but every poll after the fact showed the public disagreed strongly. So a bad debate performance can harm the campaign, or in the case of last election solidfy against the loser.

  • HenroidHenroid Baba Booey to y'all Tyler, TX (where hope comes to die!)Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Mill wrote: »
    The thing is for the two debates that Romney can prepare for, he can't really prepare for Obama's response, nor has he had to deal with someone of Obama's caliber in debates. I'm pretty sure Obama will rip Romney a new one during the first and last debates; especially, when Mitt the Twit starts lying.

    Is there any evidence the debates in modern times actually affect anything? Do we see changes in the polls?

    I know they sure as fuck don't affect the media response to them. There are three debates. Obama will win one of them, Romney will win one of them, and one will be a tie. If the media is feeling especially motivated, maybe they'll put some effort into tying the Romney win to the debate where he does least-bad, but I would guess it's all going to be pre-determined based on what they think will best further the horse-race narrative they want. I'm guessing they'll either go Obama-Romney-Tie (if they want some sort of underdog/comeback/this-will-be-so-close angle) or Obama-Tie-Romney (if they'd rather do a Romney-gradually-getting-better-but-can-he-close-the-deal? bit).

    As usual, they'll wind up tying "winning" the debate to overcoming some sort of media-defined fault. If Romney does particularly bad, he'll have "won" based on something like "he needed one human moment and he got one, TOTAL WIN" or "he made it almost fifteen consecutive minutes without outright insulting some major voting bloc, SUCCESS" or "he did not actually, technically burst into laughter when saying that one thing that was such obvious bullshit, FLAWLESS VICTORY." And the debate that goes to Obama will not be, "Wow, dude broke Romney's shit right off and then raped him with it," it will be couched as something like, "Obama picks up a narrow win there by avoiding discussion of the economy."

    It'll be a complete farce. I can't wait.

    Anecdotal: My mother turned on John McCain in 2008 because of the debates. So, people like that exist I guess but I'm not going to try to guess in what proportion.

    Also, yeah, the media generally doesn't understand what "impartial" means. The way to actually handle discussion of who won what debate is to not treat it as a win / lose at all. No commentators saying, "Well I feel Obama won," or any shit like that. The only mention of 'wins' should be from polling regarding the performance of each candidate. And y'know, polls are polls. The media should just cover, "When asked about x, person y responded with z." That's it. Commentary on the news on news stations is the most vile fucking thing. Leave it to comedians and talk show hosts.

    "Ultima Online Pre-Trammel is the perfect example of why libertarians are full of shit." - @Ludious
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  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. Risk is our business.Registered User regular
    I think a bad performance will definitely turn voters off, but I'm less sure that a good performance will turn voters on.

    The media is just too unreliable for it to work like that anymore. If it ever really was.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I think a bad performance will definitely turn voters off, but I'm less sure that a good performance will turn voters on.

    The media is just too unreliable for it to work like that anymore. If it ever really was.

    We'll have to see post olympics, but it could be that people in america are already fairly certain who they are going to vote for. If thats true Rmoney's in trouble, because most polls show him down to Obama and not making up ground, especially in demographics like women and hispanics.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. Risk is our business.Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    I think a bad performance will definitely turn voters off, but I'm less sure that a good performance will turn voters on.

    The media is just too unreliable for it to work like that anymore. If it ever really was.

    We'll have to see post olympics, but it could be that people in america are already fairly certain who they are going to vote for. If thats true Rmoney's in trouble, because most polls show him down to Obama and not making up ground, especially in demographics like women and hispanics.

    Well most people don't pay attention until the conventions. That's why there aren't any debates until October. For the majority of the population, even the voting population, nobody cares right now. It's all white noise to the normies.

    But yeah, Romney is in a bit of a pickle assuming this economy thing doesn't pull a 2008. And even then I'm not convinced Mittens would have it in the bag.

    And don't remember, the more you learn about Mitt Romney, the less you like him*

    *statistically speaking

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  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    Ayn Rand is HUGE on the political right. Congressmen distribute the book "Atlas Shrugged" to staffers. I personally know a staffer for Mitch McConnell that picked up the book due to peer pressure. Don't think for a second that Objectivism isn't a huge part of the psyche of the political arm of the right.

    "The welfare of each of us is dependent fundamentally upon the welfare of all of us."
    Spoiler:
    -Theodore Roosevelt
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