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Thread [About the Man] of Steel

AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad.The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
edited July 2012 in Debate and/or Discourse
The Dark Knight has risen and attached to his battails were some trailers so I thought it'd be a good time to start up a thread about next summer's DC offering:

Official_poster.jpg

US Trailer:
Spoiler:

International Trailer:
Spoiler:

Man of Steel will be coming out sometime next year, Godfathered by Christopher Nolan (The Presitge, The Dark Knight Trilogy, Inception) and directed by Zach Snyder (Dawn of the Dead, 300, Watchman, Suckerpunch) and starring Henry Cavil as the eponymous Man of Steel.

The film seems to be getting a lot of bad internet buzz thanks to the spectacularly off Superman Returns (2006) and everyone favorite director to hate, Zach Snyder. I was in this camp as well, but the trailers have my interest enough to let me start considering the possibility that the film will be good. At the very least it seems like a novel direction will be taken with this tired origin story.


So come next year will we believe a man can fly?

(Feel free to discuss your favorite Superman stuff in here as well so we can stop clogging up the Batman thread).

By popular demand, well by @Pony -pular demand and the fact that it's awesome, the best summary of Superman in existence:
Spoiler:

AManFromEarth on
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Posts

  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    i maintain that superman is the worst comic book character ever and impossible to write a compelling story for

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
  • Idx86Idx86 A man chooses A slave obeysRegistered User regular
    I really, really enjoy the "flawed superhero" angle, struggling to cope with their place in the world. I hope that's the theme with Man of Steel. From 30 seconds of teaser trailer footage, it looks like that's the direction it's being taken.

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    2008, 2012 D&D "Rare With No Sauce" League Fantasy Football Champion!
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Red Son and Kingdom Come disagree with you there, dlinfiniti.

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  • Giggles_FunsworthGiggles_Funsworth Paranoiac Bay Area SprawlRegistered User regular
    Oh man, my showing of TDKR (marathon+midnight premiere) didn't have any trailers. I am not usually a big fan of Superman, but after watching both of those, have to say, I'm pretty stoked.

    Realize it's an unpopular opinion to have, but for the most part, I actually liked Watchmen quite a bit. Superman is a franchise that really needs big, larger than life visuals to deliver, and I feel like that's something Zach Snyder can definitely bring to the table. If he can tamp down his trademark slo-mo, and the script is good, this could be something special.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Idx86 wrote: »
    I really, really enjoy the "flawed superhero" angle, struggling to cope with their place in the world. I hope that's the theme with Man of Steel. From 30 seconds of teaser trailer footage, it looks like that's the direction it's being taken.

    Yeah, the thing that always bugs me is the idea that Superman shows up in Metropolis and BAM is a hero. I want to see that struggle. I want to see what it would be like for a god to decide to help mankind. I understand that his Kansas upbringing and his Kryptonian heritage is supposed to make Supes noble, and I wouldn't want to lose that, but I think a movie where he learns that with great power comes great responsibility (to borrow a catchphrase) would be fantastic.

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  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    also why is superman doing the hulk walk

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
  • NocrenNocren Lt Futz, Back in Action Still AwesomeRegistered User regular
    Who's writing this? Snyder seems fine as long as he has a decent script to work with.

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    Heather's back home now.
    Currently writing a Shadowrun book. Let's see how it goes.
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    According to wiki Christopher Nolan and David S. Goyer get the story credit while Goyer is getting the screenplay credit.

    So it's promising in that regard.

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  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    Need to stop going with the "ULTRA REALISTIC GRITTY" world and go with the full on "MAGIC MOTHERFUCKERS" world to help weaken supes.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    There's a great line in JLU where Superman is telling Darkseid that he always has to pull his punches and he's glad he can finally cut loose.

    I hope this movie is successful and that the Avengers initiative has softened the public's "WTF, Aliens?" attitude where we can see Superman going up against the threats that the world needs Superman for.

    Lex is fun and all, but I want to see the armies of Apocalypse on the big screen.

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    QuidPLA
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    I believe according to Wiki the antagonist is
    Spoiler:
    Sounds good for someone who can actually threaten Supes physically.

    I've got my eye on this film, Blue Lantern Ring in hand.

  • Delta AssaultDelta Assault Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    i maintain that superman is the worst comic book character ever and impossible to write a compelling story for

    Off the top of my head:

    Birthright
    Superman For All Seasons
    Kingdom Come
    Red Son
    Superman Annual #11 "For The Man Who Has Everything"
    The Nail
    Kal
    Action Comics #775 "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way?"
    Hitman #34 "Of Thee I Sing"

    Delta Assault on
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    Capfalcon
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    bowen wrote: »
    Need to stop going with the "ULTRA REALISTIC GRITTY" world and go with the full on "MAGIC MOTHERFUCKERS" world to help weaken supes.

    This is my second biggest worry. Batman works in that kind of world and has built his modern fame on that kind of setting, but Superman you already have to be about ten feet off the deep end before you'd even consider a main character with so many powers and so few weaknesses. There's a point where indulging in the ridiculousness of the setting just works better than covering it up.

    My biggest worry is that they'll put too much into Superman vs. (whoever the villain is). Superman has worked as a compelling character, but for me his interest drops terribly when he finally springs to action, because he's accumulated more powers than the Starship Enterprise's deflector array.

    Hevach on
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    Superman's great, but I'm less hopeful because of Zod. If they do yet another Donner tribute, this is going to be a waste.

  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    Supposedly Superman Returns was supposed to have a War World fight scene. That white suit he wears when he lands with the meteor or whatever the hell that is was really similar of Big Blue's War World costume.

  • EvigilantEvigilant Registered User regular
    I posted this in the DKR thread:

    I think the problem people (movie goers) have with Superman is that their acceptance level is so low: they can accept Batman because while his character is something borderline impossible, he's still human and has human frailties while Superman, even at his worst is still an alien with supernatural powers.

    Notice that so far that every time they do a Superman movie it's always a reboot. It's easier to tell the story of Superman's arrival and rise to power than it is to show Superman facing credible threats. You start talking about aliens, other supernatural beings, or Superman's enemies who can match his speed, strength and powers, and all of a sudden to most people it's become a godzilla film. Look at Superman Returns, it still heavily emphasized Superman's origin, and while Kevin Spacey's Luthor was great Superman's only real threat in the entire film was a giant rock. A ROCK. I would love for a Superman film to have Darkseid or Brainiac or even Black Adam (with a showing of Captain Marvel), but again for most movie goers with low acceptance, that turns into an alien vs alien movie in their eyes.

    I like that they are going with Zod over Luthor as the villain, because at least Zod can keep up with Supes. I'd like to see Luthor have a more insidious role, showing how he's always planning and developing ways to undermine Superman.

    The constant origin stories for Superman is getting tiring. If you have been alive since 2006 then you already know the story of Superman. I mean, he's one of the most iconic characters in DCs lineup, how can people not know Superman's origin? This is why I think it's out of sheer laziness, coddling, or that they just know how hard it is to sell a Superman movie where he faces a credible threat without it coming off alien vs alien and therefore unrelatable.

    I have my doubts about Man of Steel, but the two teasers are interesting enough that I'll keep an eye on it.

    "I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity." Dwight D. Eisenhower
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  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    when a character cannot die, and cannot lose, and wears a plot armor unlike any other ever before that is actually codified in contract, nothing the character ever does is of any consequence

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Superman can die and he can lose, spectacularly so.

    It takes smart writing to get the job done, but the list @Delta Assault made is a pretty good starting point.

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  • Delta AssaultDelta Assault Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    when a character cannot die, and cannot lose, and wears a plot armor unlike any other ever before that is actually codified in contract, nothing the character ever does is of any consequence
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    when a character cannot die, and cannot lose
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    when a character cannot die
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    cannot die

    Superman75.jpg


    Delta Assault on
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  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    nope
    not actually dead

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    Evigilant wrote: »
    The constant origin stories for Superman is getting tiring. If you have been alive since 2006 then you already know the story of Superman. I mean, he's one of the most iconic characters in DCs lineup, how can people not know Superman's origin? This is why I think it's out of sheer laziness, coddling, or that they just know how hard it is to sell a Superman movie where he faces a credible threat without it coming off alien vs alien and therefore unrelatable.

    It's not just Superman, either. Apparently we're in for a reboot of Batman with a new take on the origin, and we just had the same for Spider-man.

    Reboots are all over the damn place, and the only good reason I can think of is that studios want to start from the beginning every time things change even a little. They really should take a lesson from the comics and just quietly ignore what went before. You can start a new story with no origin, new actors, a new villain, change up the setting a bit, and it will work. Don't have to tread known ground again and don't have to acknowledge any link to the previous entries. Every time a comic writer decides the Hulk needs to be an uncontrollable rage monster again, they don't take Bruce Banner back to the gamma ray accident, they brush aside all his character growth and have him start punching buildings.

    PLA
  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    Superman is a fucking fantastic character. Decades of comics have proven that.

    Superman vs. Elite (an adaptation of a comic story) shows how well Superman can work in a story.

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  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    when a character cannot die, and cannot lose, and wears a plot armor unlike any other ever before that is actually codified in contract, nothing the character ever does is of any consequence

    Good thing none of those have applied to Superman for roughly 70 years huh?

    Your notions of the character are those of one who has probably never read a good superman story or hell even a few of the bad ones.


    That said we do not need another damn origin for Superman. Ever. It is ingrained in our culture we all know who he is and what he stands for. Just skip it and have him punch a damn giant gorilla or something.

    PLA
  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    dlinfiniti, name one mainstream comic book superhero that can die/isn't protected by plot armor.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    when a character cannot die, and cannot lose, and wears a plot armor unlike any other ever before that is actually codified in contract, nothing the character ever does is of any consequence

    Good thing none of those have applied to Superman for roughly 70 years huh?

    Your notions of the character are those of one who has probably never read a good superman story or hell even a few of the bad ones.


    That said we do not need another damn origin for Superman. Ever. It is ingrained in our culture we all know who he is and what he stands for. Just skip it and have him punch a damn giant gorilla or something.

    GROOOOOOOOOOOODD!

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  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    KalTorak wrote: »
    dlinfiniti, name one mainstream comic book superhero that can die/isn't protected by plot armor.

    death in comic books has been fucked since they tried to kill supes
    i'm not debating that
    i'm just saying that supes has a level of plot armor that is not seen with anyone else
    whenever they do crossover and stuff, there is but one rule
    supes cannot lose to a marvel character
    ever
    and there are similar rules in regards way he's written by dc writers as well
    the only times anything of consequence ever happens to him are in alternate universes
    you know its bad when you have to take a character out of his own reality to be able to do things with him

    dlinfiniti on
    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Well I'm thinking about Titano but seriously enough of these serious villains.

    Grodd is amazing because the concept is a surd until you realize how fucking brutal gorillas actually are.

    Pity he couldn't go toe to toe with supes. Mores the pity that Warner Brothers has no fucking clue what to do with their heroes

  • LibrarianThorneLibrarianThorne Registered User regular
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    i maintain that superman is the worst comic book character ever and impossible to write a compelling story for


    Off the top of my head:

    Birthright
    Superman For All Seasons
    Kingdom Come
    Red Son
    Superman Annual #11 "For The Man Who Has Everything"
    The Nail
    Kal
    Action Comics #775 "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way?"
    Hitman #34 "Of Thee I Sing"

    Only thing missing from this is Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? by Alan Moore and All-Star Superman by Grant Morrison. Superman also has some amazing bits in JLA vol.2 "American Dreams" wherein he's just plain fantastic despite being all blue and electric powered.

    What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way? is one of my favorite issues of comics ever. People who complain about Superman being boring really need to read that one.

    One of my favorite lines that kind of sums up Superman is in For All Seasons, though. Smallville's just been hit by this tornado and the town's all gathered at the church afterwards, and the pastor's going on about how no one could have stopped the tornado. After the sermon, Clark Kent just asks him, "But what if someone could?"

    I also have a penchant for John Byrne's Superman: Man of Steel. I really dig that origin story more than most for establishing Clark Kent as the real hero in the suit. The modern classic trend of Clark being the disguise that the perfect alien Kal-El wears when he's not got tights on is super aggravating.

  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Oh yeah All Star is amazing. If you honestly think Superman can't lose after reading the Pa Kent issue you're full of shit.

  • Delta AssaultDelta Assault Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    i maintain that superman is the worst comic book character ever and impossible to write a compelling story for


    Off the top of my head:

    Birthright
    Superman For All Seasons
    Kingdom Come
    Red Son
    Superman Annual #11 "For The Man Who Has Everything"
    The Nail
    Kal
    Action Comics #775 "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way?"
    Hitman #34 "Of Thee I Sing"

    Only thing missing from this is Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? by Alan Moore and All-Star Superman by Grant Morrison. Superman also has some amazing bits in JLA vol.2 "American Dreams" wherein he's just plain fantastic despite being all blue and electric powered.

    What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way? is one of my favorite issues of comics ever. People who complain about Superman being boring really need to read that one.

    One of my favorite lines that kind of sums up Superman is in For All Seasons, though. Smallville's just been hit by this tornado and the town's all gathered at the church afterwards, and the pastor's going on about how no one could have stopped the tornado. After the sermon, Clark Kent just asks him, "But what if someone could?"

    I also have a penchant for John Byrne's Superman: Man of Steel. I really dig that origin story more than most for establishing Clark Kent as the real hero in the suit. The modern classic trend of Clark being the disguise that the perfect alien Kal-El wears when he's not got tights on is super aggravating.

    I have problems with John Byrne's Man of Steel. The alien Krypton he established was incredibly off-putting. How are we supposed to feel sorry for these people if they're just emotionless, robotic humanoids? It's not much of a tragedy if you can't feel for these people, and we should feel that this was a tragedy. But they all come off as humorless pricks.

    The Kryptonian "womb" thing he made up to justify Kal-El being born in America was completely unneeded and silly.

    Byrne also depowered Supes a bit too much for my liking.

    EDIT: While I have nitpicks about Birthright, it's definitely my favorite origin story for Superman.

    And oh yeah, avoid Superman Earth One at all costs. That story was total shit, IMO.

    Delta Assault on
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  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Byrnes origin reboots are horrible as far as I'm concerned.

    Spider-man's beside being unnecessary was just stupid.

    Oh my god this lab exploded I'm basically dead! Oh shit a spider bit me!

    Wait what?

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    There's a reason for a reboot. It's when you drasti
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    i maintain that superman is the worst comic book character ever and impossible to write a compelling story for


    Off the top of my head:

    Birthright
    Superman For All Seasons
    Kingdom Come
    Red Son
    Superman Annual #11 "For The Man Who Has Everything"
    The Nail
    Kal
    Action Comics #775 "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way?"
    Hitman #34 "Of Thee I Sing"

    Only thing missing from this is Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? by Alan Moore and All-Star Superman by Grant Morrison. Superman also has some amazing bits in JLA vol.2 "American Dreams" wherein he's just plain fantastic despite being all blue and electric powered.

    What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way? is one of my favorite issues of comics ever. People who complain about Superman being boring really need to read that one.

    One of my favorite lines that kind of sums up Superman is in For All Seasons, though. Smallville's just been hit by this tornado and the town's all gathered at the church afterwards, and the pastor's going on about how no one could have stopped the tornado. After the sermon, Clark Kent just asks him, "But what if someone could?"

    I also have a penchant for John Byrne's Superman: Man of Steel. I really dig that origin story more than most for establishing Clark Kent as the real hero in the suit. The modern classic trend of Clark being the disguise that the perfect alien Kal-El wears when he's not got tights on is super aggravating.

    I have problems with John Byrne's Man of Steel. The alien Krypton he established was incredibly off-putting. How are we supposed to feel sorry for these people if they're just emotionless, robotic humanoids? It's not much of a tragedy if you can't feel for these people, and we should feel that this was a tragedy. But they all come off as humorless pricks.

    The Kryptonian "womb" thing he made up to justify Kal-El being born in America was completely unneeded and silly.

    Byrne also depowered Supes a bit too much for my liking.

    EDIT: While I have nitpicks about Birthright, it's definitely my favorite origin story for Superman.

    And oh yeah, avoid Superman Earth One at all costs. That story was total shit, IMO.

    That's stupid.

    It's like the uber nerds who read all that Dr Who expanded universe crap and think all Time Lords are born out of genetic looms because HOLY SHIT DOC CAN'T SEX IT UP.

    But in a more supermanic way, him being an immigrant is a huge chunk of the point. At least for me it is.

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    Quid
  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    It's supposed to be, he is basically what makes America good. Come here to make yourself a new life when your world goes to shit, stand up and protect the values of America.

    That is like... Superman in a nutshell since inception.

    PLA
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    I think Superman is probably the best comic book character at the other end of the spectrum than Batman - Batman is about what it means to be a hero as a human being, as absurd/impossible/exaggerated as that human being can be, but Superman is essentially about what it means to be a god, in the world. When Superman is written well, it's a reflection on the nature of power.

    That said, a lot of Superman stories are just the same as other superhero stories but with massively increased scope/level of power - Supes can fight villains like Darkseid, who are able to actually physically harm him, in the same way that other heroes fight equivalent villains, with similar storylines.

    Regardless, the invincible and near-omnipotent Superman is very difficult to do in a movie without being just ridiculous. I think there's an obvious solution, which is just to power him down. Give him super strength, flight, laser eyes, durability, speed, but don't make him able to move planets, or withstand a nuclear bomb, or able to breathe a cloud of frost the size of a city block, or so fast that he's invisible to the naked eye and can outrun the Flash. Make it possible for him to be visibly affected or injured by a sufficiently powerful foe, and make that power level lower than it usually is.

    There are a lot of characters who are extremely powerful in other continuities or storylines, like Thor or whatever, but who aren't the same source of complaints about being essentially omnipotent. Makes Supes play ball at that level and it can make for a much better movie, I think.

    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    It's supposed to be, he is basically what makes America good. Come here to make yourself a new life when your world goes to shit, stand up and protect the values of America.

    That is like... Superman in a nutshell since inception.

    Indeed.

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  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Superman, while being practically all-powerful, still could not become President of the United States of America.

    US Constitution > Superman > everything

    Successful Kickstarter get! Drop by Bare Mettle Entertainment if you'd like to see what we're making.
  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    It's supposed to be, he is basically what makes America good. Come here to make yourself a new life when your world goes to shit, stand up and protect the values of America.

    That is like... Superman in a nutshell since inception.

    Indeed.

    this needs to be in the OP

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    Jacobkosh
  • RocketSauceRocketSauce Registered User regular
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    i maintain that superman is the worst comic book character ever and impossible to write a compelling story for

    A character that is half man/half god that can't fit into either world...what could possibly be compelling about that?

    Superman is just so impossible to relate to, because like, he was raised in the Midwest, he was adopted, he wants to reconnect to his culture/birth-family, wants to fit in with society but has a hard time, is trying to figure out his identity, etc.

    If he is so impossible to write a compelling story for, it's because the meat and potatoes problem tends to be larger than life to match his abilities, rather than focusing on his personal problems.

    Also, the more interesting choice Superman has to make is whether or not he can do something (because he's fucking Superman, he can do anything), but whether he should or wants to do something.

  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    I take it I'm the only freak in the world who actually liked Superman Returns?

    I mean I admit it had some issues. I just think it's a shame that apparently we need to throw everything in that away and start all over again.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    I take it I'm the only freak in the world who actually liked Superman Returns?

    I mean I admit it had some issues. I just think it's a shame that apparently we need to throw everything in that away and start all over again.

    It is just as good as the old movies.

    And I had the same reaction to it as I did to them.

    First Saw It: AWESOME, SUPERMAN, YES!

    and it sort of went downhill for me from there : /

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