No one would be surprised to learn that there are right-wing Christians in this country who disapprove of homosexuality. Neither would it come as a surprise that in rural parts of this country, Christianity and homosexuality when brought together, can create a highly combustible mix.
But who could imagine the hate and rage that would motivate a Pastor to instruct deacons and members of his congregation, Grace Fellowship Church in Fruitland, TN. to physically attack a couple arriving in the church parking lot last Wednesday?
The fact that one of the gay men attacked happened to be the Pastor’s own son, Jerry Pittman, Jr., no doubt contributed to Pittman senior’s noxious edict. According to Pittman Jr., after hearing his Dad yell, “SICK’EM!:”
“My uncle and two other deacons came over to the car per my dad’s request. My uncle smashed me in the door as the other deacon knocked my boyfriend back so he couldn’t help me, punching him in his face and his chest. The other deacon came and hit me through my car window in my back.”
The attackers also verbally assaulted the couple continually with anti-gay verbiage which continued even after a Sheriff’s Deputy arrived on the scene. Bystanders and other congregants made no effort to stop the assault. For that matter, neither did the Deputy Sheriff. Once the barrage of punches ended, the Deputy refused to let the two victims press charges.
Jerry Pittman Jr. and his boyfriend, Dustin Lee, have since filed charges against two of the men who beat them as well as Pastor Jerry Pittman. A hearing has been scheduled in Gibson County Court for Tuesday, October 4th.
One can’t help but wonder if Pastor Pittman really thinks Jesus would back him up on this assault?
Clearly it's Christianity that is under assault in this country.
Won't someone please save the poor Christians.
(No, really. Now would be a great time to scoop them all up and take them off our hands, Jesus. We will be totes appreciative).
NONE of those people were Christians so don't blame them for this. They certainly say they are but they're very clearly wrong.
edit: And yes Christianity is under assault, it's supposed to be and it's a good thing. A remarkable number of them are realizing they haven't actually been anything close to Christian for hundreds of years and are actively trying to change it. It'd behoove you to actually give them some credit. Hate the Fake Christians all you want but your huge brush blaming isn't helping anyone.
I have seen far more people calling themselves Christians with behavior that tended toward this, albeit non-violent, than I have ever seen people calling themselves Christians stand up for the rights of gays. Therefore, I disagree with you. The majority of people I have seen call themselves Christians tend toward the hate end of that spectrum, and therefore that is what a Christian is.
Yeah. At this point I'm blaming all Christians for this kind of shit. Because it's their responsibility to get their house in order. As long as the 'good Christians' stand on the sidelines in these fights, they are just letting the loud nutjobs dictate the message.
Apply this logic to a group you support, say feminists, and you'll see how goosey it is.
Which is why I was saying we shouldn't be looking at assigning blame. We're just discussing what the definition of "Christian" is.
And quite clearly, the definition of Christian, meaning and adherent of those faiths that cluster under Christian, absolutely does include "oppresses homosexuals."
Do you believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God and died to save mankind from their sins?
If you answered yes, you are a Christian.
Sorry, but any sort of (im)moral behavior does not somehow exclude a person from being a Christian. In fact, it's kind of a big deal in Christianity about how you can be a terrible person and still be saved.
Do you believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God and died to save mankind from their sins?
If you answered yes, you are a Christian.
Sorry, but any sort of (im)moral behavior does not somehow exclude a person from being a Christian. In fact, it's kind of a big deal in Christianity about how you can be a terrible person and still be saved.
I think a Christian has to model their life after Christ's. I often hear, "Satan believes Jesus is the son of God yet Satan is not a Christian."
No one would be surprised to learn that there are right-wing Christians in this country who disapprove of homosexuality. Neither would it come as a surprise that in rural parts of this country, Christianity and homosexuality when brought together, can create a highly combustible mix.
But who could imagine the hate and rage that would motivate a Pastor to instruct deacons and members of his congregation, Grace Fellowship Church in Fruitland, TN. to physically attack a couple arriving in the church parking lot last Wednesday?
The fact that one of the gay men attacked happened to be the Pastor’s own son, Jerry Pittman, Jr., no doubt contributed to Pittman senior’s noxious edict. According to Pittman Jr., after hearing his Dad yell, “SICK’EM!:”
“My uncle and two other deacons came over to the car per my dad’s request. My uncle smashed me in the door as the other deacon knocked my boyfriend back so he couldn’t help me, punching him in his face and his chest. The other deacon came and hit me through my car window in my back.”
The attackers also verbally assaulted the couple continually with anti-gay verbiage which continued even after a Sheriff’s Deputy arrived on the scene. Bystanders and other congregants made no effort to stop the assault. For that matter, neither did the Deputy Sheriff. Once the barrage of punches ended, the Deputy refused to let the two victims press charges.
Jerry Pittman Jr. and his boyfriend, Dustin Lee, have since filed charges against two of the men who beat them as well as Pastor Jerry Pittman. A hearing has been scheduled in Gibson County Court for Tuesday, October 4th.
One can’t help but wonder if Pastor Pittman really thinks Jesus would back him up on this assault?
Clearly it's Christianity that is under assault in this country.
Won't someone please save the poor Christians.
(No, really. Now would be a great time to scoop them all up and take them off our hands, Jesus. We will be totes appreciative).
NONE of those people were Christians so don't blame them for this. They certainly say they are but they're very clearly wrong.
edit: And yes Christianity is under assault, it's supposed to be and it's a good thing. A remarkable number of them are realizing they haven't actually been anything close to Christian for hundreds of years and are actively trying to change it. It'd behoove you to actually give them some credit. Hate the Fake Christians all you want but your huge brush blaming isn't helping anyone.
I have seen far more people calling themselves Christians with behavior that tended toward this, albeit non-violent, than I have ever seen people calling themselves Christians stand up for the rights of gays. Therefore, I disagree with you. The majority of people I have seen call themselves Christians tend toward the hate end of that spectrum, and therefore that is what a Christian is.
Yeah. At this point I'm blaming all Christians for this kind of shit. Because it's their responsibility to get their house in order. As long as the 'good Christians' stand on the sidelines in these fights, they are just letting the loud nutjobs dictate the message.
Apply this logic to a group you support, say feminists, and you'll see how goosey it is.
Don't care. Still sick of religion.
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
See, for those people who aren't really participants in or interested in your unverifiable adherence to certain beliefs (namely that you "accepted" something), the only way to classify someone as Christian or non-Christian is by active participation in what appear to be tenets of the faith. Since the leadership of all major Christian organizations advocate discrimination against homosexuals, and the majority of proclaimed adherents also advocate the same, it's rather obvious that a true Christian does, in fact, persecute gays.
No one would be surprised to learn that there are right-wing Christians in this country who disapprove of homosexuality. Neither would it come as a surprise that in rural parts of this country, Christianity and homosexuality when brought together, can create a highly combustible mix.
But who could imagine the hate and rage that would motivate a Pastor to instruct deacons and members of his congregation, Grace Fellowship Church in Fruitland, TN. to physically attack a couple arriving in the church parking lot last Wednesday?
The fact that one of the gay men attacked happened to be the Pastor’s own son, Jerry Pittman, Jr., no doubt contributed to Pittman senior’s noxious edict. According to Pittman Jr., after hearing his Dad yell, “SICK’EM!:”
“My uncle and two other deacons came over to the car per my dad’s request. My uncle smashed me in the door as the other deacon knocked my boyfriend back so he couldn’t help me, punching him in his face and his chest. The other deacon came and hit me through my car window in my back.”
The attackers also verbally assaulted the couple continually with anti-gay verbiage which continued even after a Sheriff’s Deputy arrived on the scene. Bystanders and other congregants made no effort to stop the assault. For that matter, neither did the Deputy Sheriff. Once the barrage of punches ended, the Deputy refused to let the two victims press charges.
Jerry Pittman Jr. and his boyfriend, Dustin Lee, have since filed charges against two of the men who beat them as well as Pastor Jerry Pittman. A hearing has been scheduled in Gibson County Court for Tuesday, October 4th.
One can’t help but wonder if Pastor Pittman really thinks Jesus would back him up on this assault?
I posted this article on my Facebook feed a bit earlier and now my older sis is asking me 'why I would post this' and 'wants to chat with me after work'
Man I am really getting tired of getting chewed out by my family for things like this
The solution seems to be stoping doing things like that. I mean that honestly. There's lots of things I think are perfectly fine but do not do so as to keep peaceful relations with my family and friends.
No one would be surprised to learn that there are right-wing Christians in this country who disapprove of homosexuality. Neither would it come as a surprise that in rural parts of this country, Christianity and homosexuality when brought together, can create a highly combustible mix.
But who could imagine the hate and rage that would motivate a Pastor to instruct deacons and members of his congregation, Grace Fellowship Church in Fruitland, TN. to physically attack a couple arriving in the church parking lot last Wednesday?
The fact that one of the gay men attacked happened to be the Pastor’s own son, Jerry Pittman, Jr., no doubt contributed to Pittman senior’s noxious edict. According to Pittman Jr., after hearing his Dad yell, “SICK’EM!:”
“My uncle and two other deacons came over to the car per my dad’s request. My uncle smashed me in the door as the other deacon knocked my boyfriend back so he couldn’t help me, punching him in his face and his chest. The other deacon came and hit me through my car window in my back.”
The attackers also verbally assaulted the couple continually with anti-gay verbiage which continued even after a Sheriff’s Deputy arrived on the scene. Bystanders and other congregants made no effort to stop the assault. For that matter, neither did the Deputy Sheriff. Once the barrage of punches ended, the Deputy refused to let the two victims press charges.
Jerry Pittman Jr. and his boyfriend, Dustin Lee, have since filed charges against two of the men who beat them as well as Pastor Jerry Pittman. A hearing has been scheduled in Gibson County Court for Tuesday, October 4th.
One can’t help but wonder if Pastor Pittman really thinks Jesus would back him up on this assault?
I posted this article on my Facebook feed a bit earlier and now my older sis is asking me 'why I would post this' and 'wants to chat with me after work'
Man I am really getting tired of getting chewed out by my family for things like this
Because you feel empathy due to having a soul?
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
0
Options
KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
Yeah, Godfather, quit being so gay in public. Why you gotta shove it in my face.
No, I think conservatives would still oppose the gays integrating with or without Christianity. Christianity is the cover.
I really don't think that's true. I would argue that most anti-gay Christians are only anti-gay because it's what their religion tells them to believe. And I would further argue that from their point of view, they're doing a good, noble thing--saving gay people from eternal hell by doing whatever they can to discourage them acting on their sexual desires.
Cute guy on the street near my work talked me into donating to the HRC. And I got a sticker out of it. (Except I don't really trust random people on the street to accept my information, so I did it online after our conversation. It would probably be creepy to go back and show him the receipt on my iphone...)
HRC? My brain's not getting past "Hillary Rodham Clinton."
Human Rights Campaign.
AKA the Cowardly Lion of civil rights groups.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
The solution seems to be stoping doing things like that. I mean that honestly. There's lots of things I think are perfectly fine but do not do so as to keep peaceful relations with my family and friends.
Yeah, fuck that. The kid should be free to post articles about anti gay bigotry to his wall. It seems like a nice opportunity for dialog.
Cute guy on the street near my work talked me into donating to the HRC. And I got a sticker out of it. (Except I don't really trust random people on the street to accept my information, so I did it online after our conversation. It would probably be creepy to go back and show him the receipt on my iphone...)
HRC? My brain's not getting past "Hillary Rodham Clinton."
Human Rights Campaign.
AKA the Cowardly Lion of civil rights groups.
Why do you say that? (And are we talking about before or after the lion found his courage.)
Before. They just push very small bore issues and tend to ignore the big ones. Like their big priority for the 111th Congress was not a repeal of DADT or DOMA but the hate crimes bill.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
No one would be surprised to learn that there are right-wing Christians in this country who disapprove of homosexuality. Neither would it come as a surprise that in rural parts of this country, Christianity and homosexuality when brought together, can create a highly combustible mix.
But who could imagine the hate and rage that would motivate a Pastor to instruct deacons and members of his congregation, Grace Fellowship Church in Fruitland, TN. to physically attack a couple arriving in the church parking lot last Wednesday?
The fact that one of the gay men attacked happened to be the Pastor’s own son, Jerry Pittman, Jr., no doubt contributed to Pittman senior’s noxious edict. According to Pittman Jr., after hearing his Dad yell, “SICK’EM!:”
“My uncle and two other deacons came over to the car per my dad’s request. My uncle smashed me in the door as the other deacon knocked my boyfriend back so he couldn’t help me, punching him in his face and his chest. The other deacon came and hit me through my car window in my back.”
The attackers also verbally assaulted the couple continually with anti-gay verbiage which continued even after a Sheriff’s Deputy arrived on the scene. Bystanders and other congregants made no effort to stop the assault. For that matter, neither did the Deputy Sheriff. Once the barrage of punches ended, the Deputy refused to let the two victims press charges.
Jerry Pittman Jr. and his boyfriend, Dustin Lee, have since filed charges against two of the men who beat them as well as Pastor Jerry Pittman. A hearing has been scheduled in Gibson County Court for Tuesday, October 4th.
One can’t help but wonder if Pastor Pittman really thinks Jesus would back him up on this assault?
I posted this article on my Facebook feed a bit earlier and now my older sis is asking me 'why I would post this' and 'wants to chat with me after work'
Man I am really getting tired of getting chewed out by my family for things like this
Have you ever considered deleting your facebook account
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Not really an option for me, I hve too many ties with Canadian friends with it. Dropping the account would sever a good 80% of important connections I need
I had facebook for about a week before I knew it wasn't for me. I was getting calls from people in family worried about me, and when I checked the account a lot of my relatives had made a huge argument on my wall. I had made exactly one post at that point that was completely unrelated to anything they were shouting about. I deleted the account immediately.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
No, I think conservatives would still oppose the gays integrating with or without Christianity. Christianity is the cover.
I really don't think that's true. I would argue that most anti-gay Christians are only anti-gay because it's what their religion tells them to believe. And I would further argue that from their point of view, they're doing a good, noble thing--saving gay people from eternal hell by doing whatever they can to discourage them acting on their sexual desires.
Except even looking at the Bible, and the part most Christians profess to follow, the New Testament, this is at best a "he without sin cast the first stone" situation between those two young men. Just because you disagree with what someone believes or does does not give you the right to beat or harm them, according to Christian doctrine. Hell, by Jesus' actions it would actually be to let the gays into the church and try to help them that way, the same way most of the churches in my experience would do for alcoholics, thieves, or other people with crimes or issues (hell, when I still went to church my last pastor was a reformed drug addict and criminal).
This doesn't mean the people in the article weren't Christians, going with the whole "lived reality" that ideals and religious beliefs are filtered through cultural beliefs in what the actual practice is.
Towards the no major denominations supporting Gay Rights groups, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ECLA) and the Presbyterian Church (USA) (the distinction is important) both allow gay members of the church to become clergy, and the ECLA is working on creating a marriage rite for same sex couples. The Church of England is ambivalent about gay rights (okay for lay people to have same sex marriages, but not clergy), while the Episcopal Church has allowed gay members to become part of the clergy. While this is not a glowing support of gay marriage, it is a huge step in the way of engendering LGBT support in churches, as the clergy, pastors, and/or elders of a church are supposed to be held to a higher standard than others of the church, and if it is okay for them to be gay, soon it should lead to the "its okay for them to get married" mindset to kick in.
To be fair of people who will critisize this post, I did only google this stuff and a decent portion was taken from Wikipedia, except for the Presbyterian Church (USA) part, which came from being friends with a theology student who was working to become a pastor and was therefore heavily involved in the voting process therein about the homosexuality issue (she was for it, and it did eventually get passed to let homosexuals become pastors).
0
Options
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Actually the CoE is very much lobbying Parliament to not legalize gay marriage for anyone.
there are at least some christian churches that even have sermons supporting gay equality; I accidentally went to an episcopal church that was all about that
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
There are entire sects of Christians who are for and actively advocate for gay rights. Some of the smarter bigger denominations are even moving in that direction. Discriminating not only alienates the small but still substantial gay community but also pretty much everyone born after 1980 in western countries.
The number of Christian denominations that support homosexual relationships is small, and the proportion of adherants of those denominations is also really small.
On the side of anti-homosexuality you have Catholic Church (which by itself dwarfs any other single denomination), the Orthodox Church, the LDS, The Southern Baptist Convention, The National Association of Evangelicals (and their Megachurch members), The United Methodist Church, and others. Together they make up the vast majority of Christian membership in the US.
The number of Christian denominations that support homosexual relationships is small, and the proportion of adherants of those denominations is also really small.
On the side of anti-homosexuality you have Catholic Church (which by itself dwarfs any other single denomination), the Orthodox Church, the LDS, The Southern Baptist Convention, The National Association of Evangelicals (and their Megachurch members), The United Methodist Church, and others. Together they make up the vast majority of Christian membership in the US.
I don't disagree with you, but the Presbyterian Church (USA) and the Episcopal Church do equal about 5 million members combined, which while small, is still pretty good considering the ridiculous amounts of denominations in the US (The Southern Baptist Convention has around 17 million, and its one of the largest). I posted my previous post directly in response to the argument that every large denomination denounced homosexuality, which is not true. I also do want to point out that according to Gallup, only 35% of those under the age of 30 even go to church, so having two large denominations openly accept homosexual clergy and pastors is heartening to me. The largest groups may not be supportive of gay rights, but it is not the whole position and it is changing.
There are entire sects of Christians who are for and actively advocate for gay rights. Some of the smarter bigger denominations are even moving in that direction. Discriminating not only alienates the small but still substantial gay community but also pretty much everyone born after 1980 in western countries.
Catholicism alone is almost the size of every other Christian denomination put together. Mormons, Eastern Orthodox, Methodists, Lutherans, Anglicans, and Evangelicals all have tens or hundreds of millions of adherents, and none of them allow gay marriage. Unitarian Universalism has a bit over half a million adherents. The United Church of Christ allows gay marriage, but that can vary considerably from individual church to individual church; they have a little over a million adherents.
The vast, vast majority of Christians are members of denominations that are anti-gay marriage. Like, I would be surprised if you could get up to a full 1% (give or take, about 25 million adherents).
Correct me if I'm wrong, bu I do believe the Catholic Church appointed their first openly gay bishop bak in 2007
You're wrong.
In fact, the Catholic Church has recently been putting super-anti-gay douchebags in charge of the Seattle and San Francisco Archdioceses, as well as the Seattle Archbishop being in charge of cracking down on the lack of bigotry among nuns.
There are of course gay priests. Openly or known? Sometimes, but only tolerated like homosexuality is "tolerated" by the catholic church.
Which is "it is okay to be homosexual, so long as you live a celibate life." :rotate:
Actually they stopped ordaining even celibate gay priests six years ago or so. You have to have not sexual desire for another man for something like 3 years before joining the priesthood, IIRC.
It doesn't matter how many Christians aren't being Christian. Lumping them all together and whining about it is incredibly immature and puts the whole GLBT cause back so fucking grow up. You're doing exactly what you're already bitching about.
People who are actually Christian, and no that does not mean people who believe Christ died for their sins, and actually try to follow that do-unto-others way or whatever deserve a hell of a lot better. I've suffered at the hands of fake Christians just as much as anyone else but I at least don't have the fucking gall to spit in the faces of the ones trying to actually change things.
There are of course gay priests. Openly or known? Sometimes, but only tolerated like homosexuality is "tolerated" by the catholic church.
Which is "it is okay to be homosexual, so long as you live a celibate life." :rotate:
Actually they stopped ordaining even celibate gay priests six years ago or so. You have to have not sexual desire for another man for something like 3 years before joining the priesthood, IIRC.
Do you believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God and died to save mankind from their sins?
If you answered yes, you are a Christian.
Sorry, but any sort of (im)moral behavior does not somehow exclude a person from being a Christian. In fact, it's kind of a big deal in Christianity about how you can be a terrible person and still be saved.
Seriously, man, you either really know nothing about Christianity or you've purposefully warped it. Answering yes to that is like Step 1 of over 1,000,000 and yeah they're probably gonna make mistakes on the whole "be a better person" route. Granted some of those mistakes are deal breakers for me too, see above story, but that still doesn't mean the whole group goes down.
It doesn't matter how many Christians aren't being Christian. Lumping them all together and whining about it is incredibly immature and puts the whole GLBT cause back so fucking grow up. You're doing exactly what you're already bitching about.
People who are actually Christian, and no that does not mean people who believe Christ died for their sins, and actually try to follow that do-unto-others way or whatever deserve a hell of a lot better. I've suffered at the hands of fake Christians just as much as anyone else but I at least don't have the fucking gall to spit in the faces of the ones trying to actually change things.
This "no-true-Scotsman" thing is getting really old.
From what I can tell, 99%+ of Christians are members of denominations which don't support gay marriage. Period. Full stop. Even if I'm off by a factor of 20 (and I really don't think I am), that's still more than enough to be able to say that Christians are, generally speaking, bigots.
It doesn't matter how many Christians aren't being Christian. Lumping them all together and whining about it is incredibly immature and puts the whole GLBT cause back so fucking grow up. You're doing exactly what you're already bitching about.
People who are actually Christian, and no that does not mean people who believe Christ died for their sins, and actually try to follow that do-unto-others way or whatever deserve a hell of a lot better. I've suffered at the hands of fake Christians just as much as anyone else but I at least don't have the fucking gall to spit in the faces of the ones trying to actually change things.
No. You see, because our job is not to be kind to the majority of Christians so they accept societal change out of pity. Out job is to drag them kicking and screaming into the 21st century like the mental children many of them are.
Christians that don't actively fight against bigots that call themselves Christians, too, might as well be supporting them. Because silent tolerance of bigotry IS support.
0
Options
MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
It doesn't matter how many Christians aren't being Christian. Lumping them all together and whining about it is incredibly immature and puts the whole GLBT cause back so fucking grow up. You're doing exactly what you're already bitching about.
People who are actually Christian, and no that does not mean people who believe Christ died for their sins, and actually try to follow that do-unto-others way or whatever deserve a hell of a lot better. I've suffered at the hands of fake Christians just as much as anyone else but I at least don't have the fucking gall to spit in the faces of the ones trying to actually change things.
No. You see, because our job is not to be kind to the majority of Christians so they accept societal change out of pity. Out job is to drag them kicking and screaming into the 21st century like the mental children many of them are.
Christians that don't actively fight against bigots that call themselves Christians, too, might as well be supporting them. Because silent tolerance of bigotry IS support.
While I agree with your overall point, those examples mentioned earlier of churches and dominations accepting LGBTs should acknowledged, and not just lumped with the rest. I'd prefer the argument of you can be tolerant of LGBT AND still follow you religion by joining/being part of that group over there, rather than LGBT OR religion. Since so far it looks like people are choosing religion.
Do you believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God and died to save mankind from their sins?
If you answered yes, you are a Christian.
Sorry, but any sort of (im)moral behavior does not somehow exclude a person from being a Christian. In fact, it's kind of a big deal in Christianity about how you can be a terrible person and still be saved.
Seriously, man, you either really know nothing about Christianity or you've purposefully warped it. Answering yes to that is like Step 1 of over 1,000,000 and yeah they're probably gonna make mistakes on the whole "be a better person" route. Granted some of those mistakes are deal breakers for me too, see above story, but that still doesn't mean the whole group goes down.
In a nicer way than others have done, but yes, they are Christians, the same way as WBC are Christian. They self-identify as Christian, and accept many of the basic tenants of Christianity (which change depending on the denomination). The only way to really classify a group is by what they self-identify as, what they feel they are a part of, unless the majority of the group rejects them. While most Christians, I believe, would not condone the beating of homosexuals by clergy in some obvious "cast the first stone" parallel (I'm still mind-blown that this did not cross those people's minds), Thanatos is correct that the majority of Christians (at least when polled) and denominations as a whole, in the U.S., find homosexuality to be wrong or a sin in some fashion. This is why I find it heartening that there are at least two large denominations that accept homosexuals in the clergy, as it is a huge jump in acceptance. There are even more groups that accept them in the church, so they are slowly changing their minds, especially as it becomes socially unacceptable to have those beliefs of homosexuality being wrong.
Edit: Also, I agree with Mortious.
never die on
0
Options
KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
If Christians are mad that other Christians are giving Christians a bad name, they should either change their name (including fragmentation) or change the wrong Christians' minds.
Posts
Which is why I was saying we shouldn't be looking at assigning blame. We're just discussing what the definition of "Christian" is.
And quite clearly, the definition of Christian, meaning and adherent of those faiths that cluster under Christian, absolutely does include "oppresses homosexuals."
If you answered yes, you are a Christian.
Sorry, but any sort of (im)moral behavior does not somehow exclude a person from being a Christian. In fact, it's kind of a big deal in Christianity about how you can be a terrible person and still be saved.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
I think a Christian has to model their life after Christ's. I often hear, "Satan believes Jesus is the son of God yet Satan is not a Christian."
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+3&version=NIV
Don't care. Still sick of religion.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
I posted this article on my Facebook feed a bit earlier and now my older sis is asking me 'why I would post this' and 'wants to chat with me after work'
Man I am really getting tired of getting chewed out by my family for things like this
Because you feel empathy due to having a soul?
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
I really don't think that's true. I would argue that most anti-gay Christians are only anti-gay because it's what their religion tells them to believe. And I would further argue that from their point of view, they're doing a good, noble thing--saving gay people from eternal hell by doing whatever they can to discourage them acting on their sexual desires.
AKA the Cowardly Lion of civil rights groups.
Yeah, fuck that. The kid should be free to post articles about anti gay bigotry to his wall. It seems like a nice opportunity for dialog.
Why do you say that? (And are we talking about before or after the lion found his courage.)
Have you ever considered deleting your facebook account
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Except even looking at the Bible, and the part most Christians profess to follow, the New Testament, this is at best a "he without sin cast the first stone" situation between those two young men. Just because you disagree with what someone believes or does does not give you the right to beat or harm them, according to Christian doctrine. Hell, by Jesus' actions it would actually be to let the gays into the church and try to help them that way, the same way most of the churches in my experience would do for alcoholics, thieves, or other people with crimes or issues (hell, when I still went to church my last pastor was a reformed drug addict and criminal).
This doesn't mean the people in the article weren't Christians, going with the whole "lived reality" that ideals and religious beliefs are filtered through cultural beliefs in what the actual practice is.
Towards the no major denominations supporting Gay Rights groups, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ECLA) and the Presbyterian Church (USA) (the distinction is important) both allow gay members of the church to become clergy, and the ECLA is working on creating a marriage rite for same sex couples. The Church of England is ambivalent about gay rights (okay for lay people to have same sex marriages, but not clergy), while the Episcopal Church has allowed gay members to become part of the clergy. While this is not a glowing support of gay marriage, it is a huge step in the way of engendering LGBT support in churches, as the clergy, pastors, and/or elders of a church are supposed to be held to a higher standard than others of the church, and if it is okay for them to be gay, soon it should lead to the "its okay for them to get married" mindset to kick in.
To be fair of people who will critisize this post, I did only google this stuff and a decent portion was taken from Wikipedia, except for the Presbyterian Church (USA) part, which came from being friends with a theology student who was working to become a pastor and was therefore heavily involved in the voting process therein about the homosexuality issue (she was for it, and it did eventually get passed to let homosexuals become pastors).
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
On the side of anti-homosexuality you have Catholic Church (which by itself dwarfs any other single denomination), the Orthodox Church, the LDS, The Southern Baptist Convention, The National Association of Evangelicals (and their Megachurch members), The United Methodist Church, and others. Together they make up the vast majority of Christian membership in the US.
I don't disagree with you, but the Presbyterian Church (USA) and the Episcopal Church do equal about 5 million members combined, which while small, is still pretty good considering the ridiculous amounts of denominations in the US (The Southern Baptist Convention has around 17 million, and its one of the largest). I posted my previous post directly in response to the argument that every large denomination denounced homosexuality, which is not true. I also do want to point out that according to Gallup, only 35% of those under the age of 30 even go to church, so having two large denominations openly accept homosexual clergy and pastors is heartening to me. The largest groups may not be supportive of gay rights, but it is not the whole position and it is changing.
The vast, vast majority of Christians are members of denominations that are anti-gay marriage. Like, I would be surprised if you could get up to a full 1% (give or take, about 25 million adherents).
In fact, the Catholic Church has recently been putting super-anti-gay douchebags in charge of the Seattle and San Francisco Archdioceses, as well as the Seattle Archbishop being in charge of cracking down on the lack of bigotry among nuns.
We won't see that in our life time. And probably not within the next 500 years.
Which is "it is okay to be homosexual, so long as you live a celibate life." :rotate:
You're thinking of the Episcopalians. They are Catholic lite.
Actually they stopped ordaining even celibate gay priests six years ago or so. You have to have not sexual desire for another man for something like 3 years before joining the priesthood, IIRC.
People who are actually Christian, and no that does not mean people who believe Christ died for their sins, and actually try to follow that do-unto-others way or whatever deserve a hell of a lot better. I've suffered at the hands of fake Christians just as much as anyone else but I at least don't have the fucking gall to spit in the faces of the ones trying to actually change things.
Seriously, man, you either really know nothing about Christianity or you've purposefully warped it. Answering yes to that is like Step 1 of over 1,000,000 and yeah they're probably gonna make mistakes on the whole "be a better person" route. Granted some of those mistakes are deal breakers for me too, see above story, but that still doesn't mean the whole group goes down.
From what I can tell, 99%+ of Christians are members of denominations which don't support gay marriage. Period. Full stop. Even if I'm off by a factor of 20 (and I really don't think I am), that's still more than enough to be able to say that Christians are, generally speaking, bigots.
No. You see, because our job is not to be kind to the majority of Christians so they accept societal change out of pity. Out job is to drag them kicking and screaming into the 21st century like the mental children many of them are.
Christians that don't actively fight against bigots that call themselves Christians, too, might as well be supporting them. Because silent tolerance of bigotry IS support.
While I agree with your overall point, those examples mentioned earlier of churches and dominations accepting LGBTs should acknowledged, and not just lumped with the rest. I'd prefer the argument of you can be tolerant of LGBT AND still follow you religion by joining/being part of that group over there, rather than LGBT OR religion. Since so far it looks like people are choosing religion.
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
In a nicer way than others have done, but yes, they are Christians, the same way as WBC are Christian. They self-identify as Christian, and accept many of the basic tenants of Christianity (which change depending on the denomination). The only way to really classify a group is by what they self-identify as, what they feel they are a part of, unless the majority of the group rejects them. While most Christians, I believe, would not condone the beating of homosexuals by clergy in some obvious "cast the first stone" parallel (I'm still mind-blown that this did not cross those people's minds), Thanatos is correct that the majority of Christians (at least when polled) and denominations as a whole, in the U.S., find homosexuality to be wrong or a sin in some fashion. This is why I find it heartening that there are at least two large denominations that accept homosexuals in the clergy, as it is a huge jump in acceptance. There are even more groups that accept them in the church, so they are slowly changing their minds, especially as it becomes socially unacceptable to have those beliefs of homosexuality being wrong.
Edit: Also, I agree with Mortious.
Sorry but thems the breaks.