It is probably the number one cause for all D&D topics going off topic and getting locked.
That is possibly true.
It's definitely true for this topic though. And we've actually very fortunate this time making it through a whole 100 pages and into a new thread without having this happen!
Any groups that aren't anti-gay aren't bring talked about, pretty convenient.
Well, that's what I'm trying to convey. You can't label Christians as a homophobic group anymore. There's a very notable percentage, even if it's a still an over all minority, of individual Christians, entire churches and whole denominations that openly accept homosexuals and don't even vaguely consider it a sin. Hell, there's even a black sheep Catholic church in my city that felt the same way although they did eventually get the smackdown from the local bishop or whatever and had to do the acceptance on the down low.
I don't really care how many Catholics claim that they're not homophobes; they're giving money to a homophobic church, so what they like to say doesn't really matter. They're bankrolling the largest anti-gay lobbying group in the world, and that does matter.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
I'm pretty sure no one said all Christians hate the gays.
Maybe we can lay that to rest.
Better yet, bury the religious discussion in a ditch and fill it in, since it is the #1 foremost cause of LGBT threads being drug off topic and locked.
It's happened to probably 5 or 6 past threads and it starts basically like this.
I've read a couple times on this very thread that there's nothing wrong with generalizing that all christians hate the gays. At least one of those posts if from you.
So maybe be clearer about what you mean because clearly multiple people are reading it into your posts.
There is a metric fuck ton of bigotry within the Christian community, this is an undeniable fact. It is something I think as Christians we should move to change. Hell I don't even go to church any more because I'm sick of hearing about how the gays and the women are evil. But sweeping generalizations are detrimental to profitable discussion, even when made by the morally right.
I'm pretty sure no one said all Christians hate the gays.
Maybe we can lay that to rest.
Better yet, bury the religious discussion in a ditch and fill it in, since it is the #1 foremost cause of LGBT threads being drug off topic and locked.
It's happened to probably 5 or 6 past threads and it starts basically like this.
I've read a couple times on this very thread that there's nothing wrong with generalizing that all christians hate the gays. At least one of those posts if from you.
So maybe be clearer about what you mean because clearly multiple people are reading it into your posts.
There is a metric fuck ton of bigotry within the Christian community, this is an undeniable fact. It is something I think as Christians we should move to change. Hell I don't even go to church any more because I'm sick of hearing about how the gays and the women are evil. But sweeping generalizations are detrimental to profitable discussion, even when made by the morally right.
This thread is a bit of a choir loft and I, personally, do not come here looking to debate religion in this thread. That's why I quickly get terse with people who seem to want to. I've said stuff here that I wouldn't post in a religion thread under any circumstances, being it's piss poor debate strategy, and also because it's just rude.
But in this thread? Yeah if I feel like someone is concern trolling for the poor oppressed Christians I have no patience.
But again, this is not a religion thread so I don't feel like I need to exercise my best possible behavior. Maybe that makes me awful. *shrug*
As has been pointed out repeatedly, such a vast majority of denominations in this country are anti-gay that it isn't an unfair generalization.
It sure as hell isn't bigotry, and that third-grade level of deflection isn't going to be very effective in this thread.
It is the EXACT definition of bigotry and your repeated, bizzare insistance it isn't will not change that fact.
No it isn't.
Labeling all members of a group with a hateful trait, in this case "homophobes"" when it's not true and wishing they were all dead which YOU YOURSELF did a few pages ago very much is.
Oh you.
8->
Seriously, I'm not trying to be a dick about this and I can totally see where you're coming from and all but there are some really nice folks out there now and there's getting to be more of them every day. I just want people to be able to realize that it is actually getting better.
Getting better as a whole, yes.
But it doesn't mean severe and/or crappy incidents still don't occur.
Case in point, my family disowned me 2 weeks ago (in the middle of the CFA drama) for refusing to keep my "lifestyle" to myself.
And they've known between 10-12 years; the tipping point was me calling people out on various pages for being homophobic and/or bigots.
So while I'm happy that we are getting closer to equal rights, it saddens me immensely to see so many people who use their religion as an excuse to press hatred.
To be clear, I'm not saying all Christians are anti-gay; they aren't. I know many who are wonderful people and just want equal rights for everyone.
neville on
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Any groups that aren't anti-gay aren't bring talked about, pretty convenient.
Well, that's what I'm trying to convey. You can't label Christians as a homophobic group anymore. There's a very notable percentage, even if it's a still an over all minority, of individual Christians, entire churches and whole denominations that openly accept homosexuals and don't even vaguely consider it a sin. Hell, there's even a black sheep Catholic church in my city that felt the same way although they did eventually get the smackdown from the local bishop or whatever and had to do the acceptance on the down low.
I don't really care how many Catholics claim that they're not homophobes; they're giving money to a homophobic church, so what they like to say doesn't really matter. They're bankrolling the largest anti-gay lobbying group in the world, and that does matter.
The Catholic Church Inc. yes, rando Catholics? No. They may not tithe, they may not go to church, they may go and take your suggestion of writing "Stop Being Cocks" on a slip of paper and putting it in the collection plate.
We don't tolerate generalizations about any other group on these boards, why Christians are a special case is beyond me.
Complexity isn't a vice, people.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
I'm pretty sure no one said all Christians hate the gays.
Maybe we can lay that to rest.
Better yet, bury the religious discussion in a ditch and fill it in, since it is the #1 foremost cause of LGBT threads being drug off topic and locked.
It's happened to probably 5 or 6 past threads and it starts basically like this.
I've read a couple times on this very thread that there's nothing wrong with generalizing that all christians hate the gays. At least one of those posts if from you.
So maybe be clearer about what you mean because clearly multiple people are reading it into your posts.
There is a metric fuck ton of bigotry within the Christian community, this is an undeniable fact. It is something I think as Christians we should move to change. Hell I don't even go to church any more because I'm sick of hearing about how the gays and the women are evil. But sweeping generalizations are detrimental to profitable discussion, even when made by the morally right.
This thread is a bit of a choir loft and I, personally, do not come here looking to debate religion in this thread. That's why I quickly get terse with people who seem to want to. I've said stuff here that I wouldn't post in a religion thread under any circumstances, being it's piss poor debate strategy, and also because it's just rude.
But in this thread? Yeah if I feel like someone is concern trolling for the poor oppressed Christians I have no patience.
But again, this is not a religion thread so I don't feel like I need to exercise my best possible behavior. Maybe that makes me awful. *shrug*
It doesn't make you awful, it just makes you bad at debate.
Just because it isn't a religion thread doesn't mean being so generalized as to be wrong is okay and it doesn't make your little pity party any more endearing when people call you on it.
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
I don't know if you meant it to sound like it, but your earlier posts made it seem that you believed all Christians are bigoted. And I think that's what some people are having a problem with. They're just getting tired of the exchange "Christians are bigots"/"Except those ones over there" going around in circles.
If the point is to hate on religion, that's fine. But a lot of the discussion seemed to be focused on how to make things better, and how are we going to move forward. For me, pointing out the more progressive sects and being accepting of them will cause other Christians to shift over. Certainly a better plan than trying to have them pick.
And Christianity isn't a single topic voter. It's not just about Gay rights. There are some positives that are more important to them than the negatives, which are more important to you.
Also, not defending the religion here, they're not being oppressed. Just trying to show that some are trying to do the change from within thing that people here keep asking them to do.
I'm pretty sure no one said all Christians hate the gays.
Maybe we can lay that to rest.
Better yet, bury the religious discussion in a ditch and fill it in, since it is the #1 foremost cause of LGBT threads being drug off topic and locked.
It's happened to probably 5 or 6 past threads and it starts basically like this.
I've read a couple times on this very thread that there's nothing wrong with generalizing that all christians hate the gays. At least one of those posts if from you.
So maybe be clearer about what you mean because clearly multiple people are reading it into your posts.
There is a metric fuck ton of bigotry within the Christian community, this is an undeniable fact. It is something I think as Christians we should move to change. Hell I don't even go to church any more because I'm sick of hearing about how the gays and the women are evil. But sweeping generalizations are detrimental to profitable discussion, even when made by the morally right.
This thread is a bit of a choir loft and I, personally, do not come here looking to debate religion in this thread. That's why I quickly get terse with people who seem to want to. I've said stuff here that I wouldn't post in a religion thread under any circumstances, being it's piss poor debate strategy, and also because it's just rude.
But in this thread? Yeah if I feel like someone is concern trolling for the poor oppressed Christians I have no patience.
But again, this is not a religion thread so I don't feel like I need to exercise my best possible behavior. Maybe that makes me awful. *shrug*
It doesn't make you awful, it just makes you bad at debate.
Just because it isn't a religion thread doesn't mean being so generalized as to be wrong is okay and it doesn't make your little pity party any more endearing when people call you on it.
Pity party, nice.
Can we move on yet, or do you still feel the need to educate the thread on tolerance of religious groups?
Because, you know, that's not the subject of this thread in any way.
Somehow those aren't okay to say, but All Christians hate the gays is?
Fucking please, people.
Many Christians are anti gay bigots, not all and blaming every Christian for it is intellectually lazy and dishonest.
No one said "ALL CHRISTIANS HATE GAYS."
"Many Christians are anti-gay bigots" was definitely said. (True, depending on definition of many)
So was, "The overwhelmingly vast leadership of Christian sects hold anti-gay bigotry to be an ideal." (Also true)
I'll throw out another one: "Christians revere and base their faith on a single, governing holy text which holds anti-gay bigotry as an ideal as part of its tenets."
Edit: Late on reading the "this is what kills our threads." I'll stop, although I don't see how you discuss LGBTT rights without discussing the fact that Christians are the driving factor behind having to have a discussion about LGBTT rights.
Somehow those aren't okay to say, but All Christians hate the gays is?
Fucking please, people.
Many Christians are anti gay bigots, not all and blaming every Christian for it is intellectually lazy and dishonest.
Question: Has anybody actually said "ALL Christians are anti-gay bigots?" or just "Christians are anti-gay bigots?"
Because the second phrase allows for the 1-2% that aren't utter ass-clowns without having to specifically mention them every time to spare their feelings.
Any groups that aren't anti-gay aren't bring talked about, pretty convenient.
Well, that's what I'm trying to convey. You can't label Christians as a homophobic group anymore. There's a very notable percentage, even if it's a still an over all minority, of individual Christians, entire churches and whole denominations that openly accept homosexuals and don't even vaguely consider it a sin. Hell, there's even a black sheep Catholic church in my city that felt the same way although they did eventually get the smackdown from the local bishop or whatever and had to do the acceptance on the down low.
So, you're saying the majority of Christians don't adhere to one of the basic ideals of Christianity ("love thy neighbor as thyself") and there is, by any standard, only the minority who are open-minded enough to accept that some of those "neighbors" might be gay and deserve equal civil rights?
Because what I am reading here is more in the exception-which-proves-the-rule territory
perhaps you find it offensive for some of us to call out Christians on this hypocrisy; perhaps some of us find it offensive for someone to stand here and say "not ALL Christians hate The Gays et al...just the majority" and not expect to be treated like a bit of a pedant
I don't care if you're offended by it, it's true. Not all Christians hate us. It's a fact now. It's a GOOD thing; I don't see why people aren't more willing to be happy about it.
Edit: Late on reading the "this is what kills our threads." I'll stop, although I don't see how you discuss LGBTT rights without discussing the fact that Christians are the driving factor behind having to have a discussion about LGBTT rights.
It's impossible, but you can let the convo die down so that it's not a continuous religious discussion.
I myself realized one page back that I am part of the problem, and that's why I pointed it out.
Much better for me to do it than a mod to notice, because the response is quite often to simply declare that the thread has run it's course and lock it, and then we wait several months before we have another general GLBT thread (note: This has actually happened-a lot).
Well I guess there is a first time for everything.
I assumed you are Christian because I have never seen a non-Christian so eager to defend the faith from stereotypes that are only mostly-true but not completely true all of the time.
I am not an atheist, but actually a deist. Like most deists I'm culturally Christian, non-religious, and feel like Christ was pretty close to right about everything* but his followers are almost perfect in their ability to get everything wrong ever.
-edit- * in terms of morality of course, not theology
I want to defend it because it'll make our lives better if we can realize they all aren't gunning for us anymore and, simply, I've been really blown away by some of the reactions we got when the Gay Men's Chorus went and sang at some churches.
Granted, I'll always be on guard around anyone who says they're a Christian and I probably will be the rest of my life but it sure would be nice if I didn't have to be.
I'm pretty sure no one said all Christians hate the gays.
Maybe we can lay that to rest.
Better yet, bury the religious discussion in a ditch and fill it in, since it is the #1 foremost cause of LGBT threads being drug off topic and locked.
It's happened to probably 5 or 6 past threads and it starts basically like this.
Yeah, true.
So how about that Elton John, huh? What a cranky old bitch.
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
Also, personal anecdote if I may. Feel free to skip.
Recently I moved to a new country, New Zealand (Got my residency this week as well, yay)
Very scary experience, leaving everything and everyone, and moving half-way across the world with no job.
One of the first groups I interacted with was a church group, due to some family thing. Everybody there was really nice and accepting, offers to help with everything from a place to stay, job hunting, furniture (for free), leisure activities etc.
I don't know their stance on Gay rights, it's not like that had a brochure or information packet that contained that information, or an EULA that I had to sign. It never came up, it might never come up. It's also not something that I probably would even have considered. If I didn't have my partner, or some very good friends already over here, I probably would have joined the church. Not for the religion, or the whom they support X number of steps removed, but for the community and support.
Now the point of that is, if I needed (or thought I needed) that support, making me pick between them or you (you in an "other" sense), even though you're in the moral right, might make me choose the more rational and selfish option of me. However, saying that you can go over to that group, and get everything that this group gives you without the hate might be a better argument. Well if the argument is to get more visible pro-gay people.
I'm pretty sure no one said all Christians hate the gays.
Maybe we can lay that to rest.
Better yet, bury the religious discussion in a ditch and fill it in, since it is the #1 foremost cause of LGBT threads being drug off topic and locked.
It's happened to probably 5 or 6 past threads and it starts basically like this.
Yeah, true.
So how about that Elton John, huh? What a cranky old bitch.
I was pretty shocked by what he said, it was really... aggressive.
I'm not sure I feel about it though because Madonna can be a snarky bitch herself, and she has supposedly been quite mean about Lady Gaga for a while now, and it's not like she and Elton have ever gotten along anyway.
As has been pointed out repeatedly, such a vast majority of denominations in this country are anti-gay that it isn't an unfair generalization.
It sure as hell isn't bigotry, and that third-grade level of deflection isn't going to be very effective in this thread.
It is the EXACT definition of bigotry and your repeated, bizzare insistance it isn't will not change that fact.
No it isn't.
Labeling all members of a group with a hateful trait, in this case "homophobes"" when it's not true and wishing they were all dead which YOU YOURSELF did a few pages ago very much is.
Oh you.
8->
Seriously, I'm not trying to be a dick about this and I can totally see where you're coming from and all but there are some really nice folks out there now and there's getting to be more of them every day. I just want people to be able to realize that it is actually getting better.
Getting better as a whole, yes.
But it doesn't mean severe and/or crappy incidents still don't occur.
Case in point, my family disowned me 2 weeks ago (in the middle of the CFA drama) for refusing to keep my "lifestyle" to myself.
And they've known between 10-12 years; the tipping point was me calling people out on various pages for being homophobic and/or bigots.
So while I'm happy that we are getting closer to equal rights, it saddens me immensely to see so many people who use their religion as an excuse to press hatred.
To be clear, I'm not saying all Christians are anti-gay; they aren't. I know many who are wonderful people and just want equal rights for everyone.
I'm sorry. I hope they come around.
-edit-
And to clarify my point that started this whole mess... I know not all Christians are bigots. I just don't understand why the ones who aren't assholes are not as loud as the ones who are.
MuddBudd on
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
As has been pointed out repeatedly, such a vast majority of denominations in this country are anti-gay that it isn't an unfair generalization.
It sure as hell isn't bigotry, and that third-grade level of deflection isn't going to be very effective in this thread.
It is the EXACT definition of bigotry and your repeated, bizzare insistance it isn't will not change that fact.
No it isn't.
Labeling all members of a group with a hateful trait, in this case "homophobes"" when it's not true and wishing they were all dead which YOU YOURSELF did a few pages ago very much is.
Oh you.
8->
Seriously, I'm not trying to be a dick about this and I can totally see where you're coming from and all but there are some really nice folks out there now and there's getting to be more of them every day. I just want people to be able to realize that it is actually getting better.
Getting better as a whole, yes.
But it doesn't mean severe and/or crappy incidents still don't occur.
Case in point, my family disowned me 2 weeks ago (in the middle of the CFA drama) for refusing to keep my "lifestyle" to myself.
And they've known between 10-12 years; the tipping point was me calling people out on various pages for being homophobic and/or bigots.
So while I'm happy that we are getting closer to equal rights, it saddens me immensely to see so many people who use their religion as an excuse to press hatred.
To be clear, I'm not saying all Christians are anti-gay; they aren't. I know many who are wonderful people and just want equal rights for everyone.
And to clarify my point that started this whole mess... I know not all Christians are bigots. I just don't understand why the ones who aren't assholes are not as loud as the ones who are.
This is true of virtually every group in existence.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Somehow those aren't okay to say, but All Christians hate the gays is?
Fucking please, people.
Many Christians are anti gay bigots, not all and blaming every Christian for it is intellectually lazy and dishonest.
Question: Has anybody actually said "ALL Christians are anti-gay bigots?" or just "Christians are anti-gay bigots?"
Because the second phrase allows for the 1-2% that aren't utter ass-clowns without having to specifically mention them every time to spare their feelings.
"Enough of them hate the gays that there's nothing wrong with generalizing like this" is a thing that was said.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
I'm pretty sure no one said all Christians hate the gays.
Maybe we can lay that to rest.
Better yet, bury the religious discussion in a ditch and fill it in, since it is the #1 foremost cause of LGBT threads being drug off topic and locked.
It's happened to probably 5 or 6 past threads and it starts basically like this.
I've read a couple times on this very thread that there's nothing wrong with generalizing that all christians hate the gays. At least one of those posts if from you.
So maybe be clearer about what you mean because clearly multiple people are reading it into your posts.
There is a metric fuck ton of bigotry within the Christian community, this is an undeniable fact. It is something I think as Christians we should move to change. Hell I don't even go to church any more because I'm sick of hearing about how the gays and the women are evil. But sweeping generalizations are detrimental to profitable discussion, even when made by the morally right.
This thread is a bit of a choir loft and I, personally, do not come here looking to debate religion in this thread. That's why I quickly get terse with people who seem to want to. I've said stuff here that I wouldn't post in a religion thread under any circumstances, being it's piss poor debate strategy, and also because it's just rude.
But in this thread? Yeah if I feel like someone is concern trolling for the poor oppressed Christians I have no patience.
But again, this is not a religion thread so I don't feel like I need to exercise my best possible behavior. Maybe that makes me awful. *shrug*
It doesn't make you awful, it just makes you bad at debate.
Just because it isn't a religion thread doesn't mean being so generalized as to be wrong is okay and it doesn't make your little pity party any more endearing when people call you on it.
Pity party, nice.
Can we move on yet, or do you still feel the need to educate the thread on tolerance of religious groups?
Because, you know, that's not the subject of this thread in any way.
Any groups that aren't anti-gay aren't bring talked about, pretty convenient.
Well, that's what I'm trying to convey. You can't label Christians as a homophobic group anymore. There's a very notable percentage, even if it's a still an over all minority, of individual Christians, entire churches and whole denominations that openly accept homosexuals and don't even vaguely consider it a sin. Hell, there's even a black sheep Catholic church in my city that felt the same way although they did eventually get the smackdown from the local bishop or whatever and had to do the acceptance on the down low.
I don't really care how many Catholics claim that they're not homophobes; they're giving money to a homophobic church, so what they like to say doesn't really matter. They're bankrolling the largest anti-gay lobbying group in the world, and that does matter.
I usually agree with what you say, but every now and then I kind of wanna go
Hey
Maybe take it down a step
Or five
I dunno
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
As has been pointed out repeatedly, such a vast majority of denominations in this country are anti-gay that it isn't an unfair generalization.
It sure as hell isn't bigotry, and that third-grade level of deflection isn't going to be very effective in this thread.
It is the EXACT definition of bigotry and your repeated, bizzare insistance it isn't will not change that fact.
No it isn't.
Labeling all members of a group with a hateful trait, in this case "homophobes"" when it's not true and wishing they were all dead which YOU YOURSELF did a few pages ago very much is.
Oh you.
8->
Seriously, I'm not trying to be a dick about this and I can totally see where you're coming from and all but there are some really nice folks out there now and there's getting to be more of them every day. I just want people to be able to realize that it is actually getting better.
Getting better as a whole, yes.
But it doesn't mean severe and/or crappy incidents still don't occur.
Case in point, my family disowned me 2 weeks ago (in the middle of the CFA drama) for refusing to keep my "lifestyle" to myself.
And they've known between 10-12 years; the tipping point was me calling people out on various pages for being homophobic and/or bigots.
So while I'm happy that we are getting closer to equal rights, it saddens me immensely to see so many people who use their religion as an excuse to press hatred.
To be clear, I'm not saying all Christians are anti-gay; they aren't. I know many who are wonderful people and just want equal rights for everyone.
I'm sorry. I hope they come around.
-edit-
And to clarify my point that started this whole mess... I know not all Christians are bigots. I just don't understand why the ones who aren't assholes are not as loud as the ones who are.
That's an interesting question, but I think it's true of every group. The assholes are always the most vocal. I'm not sure why that is, maybe because the non assholes don't feel the need to fuck around with people so they're less likely to speak out?
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Anyone wishing to continue discussing the complex relationships between religious institutions (and their politics) and their constituency at large should start a new thread.
You'd think he'd know better than most that non-straight people can play straight very well, considering his own identification.
When asked an interview in 2002 whether or not he was gay, Ellis explained that he does not identify himself as gay or straight. He explained that he is comfortable to be thought of as gay, bisexual or heterosexual and that he enjoys playing with his persona, identifying variously as gay, straight and bi to different people over the years.
Then again, this is also the guy that said watching Chris Colfer on Glee is like "stepping into a puddle of HIV" so fuck him and his attempts at being edgy, really.
Blackjack on
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
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nevilleThe Worst Gay(Seriously. The Worst!)Registered Userregular
As has been pointed out repeatedly, such a vast majority of denominations in this country are anti-gay that it isn't an unfair generalization.
It sure as hell isn't bigotry, and that third-grade level of deflection isn't going to be very effective in this thread.
It is the EXACT definition of bigotry and your repeated, bizzare insistance it isn't will not change that fact.
No it isn't.
Labeling all members of a group with a hateful trait, in this case "homophobes"" when it's not true and wishing they were all dead which YOU YOURSELF did a few pages ago very much is.
Oh you.
8->
Seriously, I'm not trying to be a dick about this and I can totally see where you're coming from and all but there are some really nice folks out there now and there's getting to be more of them every day. I just want people to be able to realize that it is actually getting better.
Getting better as a whole, yes.
But it doesn't mean severe and/or crappy incidents still don't occur.
Case in point, my family disowned me 2 weeks ago (in the middle of the CFA drama) for refusing to keep my "lifestyle" to myself.
And they've known between 10-12 years; the tipping point was me calling people out on various pages for being homophobic and/or bigots.
So while I'm happy that we are getting closer to equal rights, it saddens me immensely to see so many people who use their religion as an excuse to press hatred.
To be clear, I'm not saying all Christians are anti-gay; they aren't. I know many who are wonderful people and just want equal rights for everyone.
I'm sorry. I hope they come around.
-edit-
And to clarify my point that started this whole mess... I know not all Christians are bigots. I just don't understand why the ones who aren't assholes are not as loud as the ones who are.
Thanks. I do, too, however disowning me over refusing to keep my "lifestyle" to myself after knowing for over a decade seems to me to say that they won't get over it. My dad and sister both think it is a CHOICE. Have they ever discussed it with me? No.
And when I tried to bring it up, I was shouted down.
There's ignorance and there's willful ignorance.
I don't even think it's the "it's difficult to discuss" argument; I think they don't want anything shattering their bullshit straw man arguments, so they won't let me discuss it.
Honestly, my life has no room for that kind of crap, I don't care if they're blood family or not.
I think there is also a big difference between criticizing a religious group and other social groups. Theoretically people join the religion that they share most of their beliefs with. So I don't think someone can just say, "Yeah, I choose to be a member of this group of people with a common belief system... but I don't agree with some of their most important beliefs".
I know in practice people's religion is most likely just their family's religion, but that's kind of the problem with it. Certainly religious people would like to be able to justify their beliefs beyond "that's what my parents told me to believe."
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
We support the right of all families to have equal respect, responsibilities, and protections under the law. We support marriage equality and support the movement to secure equal treatment under law for same-sex couples. We also support the freedom of churches and religious entities to decide how to administer marriage as a religious sacrament without government interference.
We oppose discriminatory federal and state constitutional amendments and other attempts to deny equal protection of the laws to committed same-sex couples who seek the same respect and responsibilities as other married couples. We support the full repeal of the so-called Defense of Marriage Act and the passage of the Respect for Marriage Act.
Official language (written by committee, somewhat obviously) of the plank in the Democratic platform that will be supporting gay marriage in a little less than a month.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
That seems kind of odd. Doesn't that remove the possibility of any sort of treatment, particularly corrective surgery?
It does seem strange. I'm not sure I agree with it.
Unlike homosexuality, being transgender is a situation where there are treatments, actual legitimate medical treatments, that alleviate suffering and improve the quality of life.
That certainly suggests there is, you know, an "illness" of some sort. No one is suggesting it's like cancer or having a tapeworm.
I'm sure there are some transgendered people who feel like they are perfect and perfectly happy with their physical sex being one way and their gender identity being the other.
But I doubt they are in the majority. Every transgender person I have met has at least used hormones, even if they have declined any surgery.
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That is possibly true.
It's definitely true for this topic though. And we've actually very fortunate this time making it through a whole 100 pages and into a new thread without having this happen!
I've read a couple times on this very thread that there's nothing wrong with generalizing that all christians hate the gays. At least one of those posts if from you.
So maybe be clearer about what you mean because clearly multiple people are reading it into your posts.
There is a metric fuck ton of bigotry within the Christian community, this is an undeniable fact. It is something I think as Christians we should move to change. Hell I don't even go to church any more because I'm sick of hearing about how the gays and the women are evil. But sweeping generalizations are detrimental to profitable discussion, even when made by the morally right.
This thread is a bit of a choir loft and I, personally, do not come here looking to debate religion in this thread. That's why I quickly get terse with people who seem to want to. I've said stuff here that I wouldn't post in a religion thread under any circumstances, being it's piss poor debate strategy, and also because it's just rude.
But in this thread? Yeah if I feel like someone is concern trolling for the poor oppressed Christians I have no patience.
But again, this is not a religion thread so I don't feel like I need to exercise my best possible behavior. Maybe that makes me awful. *shrug*
Getting better as a whole, yes.
But it doesn't mean severe and/or crappy incidents still don't occur.
Case in point, my family disowned me 2 weeks ago (in the middle of the CFA drama) for refusing to keep my "lifestyle" to myself.
And they've known between 10-12 years; the tipping point was me calling people out on various pages for being homophobic and/or bigots.
So while I'm happy that we are getting closer to equal rights, it saddens me immensely to see so many people who use their religion as an excuse to press hatred.
To be clear, I'm not saying all Christians are anti-gay; they aren't. I know many who are wonderful people and just want equal rights for everyone.
The Catholic Church Inc. yes, rando Catholics? No. They may not tithe, they may not go to church, they may go and take your suggestion of writing "Stop Being Cocks" on a slip of paper and putting it in the collection plate.
We don't tolerate generalizations about any other group on these boards, why Christians are a special case is beyond me.
Complexity isn't a vice, people.
It doesn't make you awful, it just makes you bad at debate.
Just because it isn't a religion thread doesn't mean being so generalized as to be wrong is okay and it doesn't make your little pity party any more endearing when people call you on it.
If the point is to hate on religion, that's fine. But a lot of the discussion seemed to be focused on how to make things better, and how are we going to move forward. For me, pointing out the more progressive sects and being accepting of them will cause other Christians to shift over. Certainly a better plan than trying to have them pick.
And Christianity isn't a single topic voter. It's not just about Gay rights. There are some positives that are more important to them than the negatives, which are more important to you.
Also, not defending the religion here, they're not being oppressed. Just trying to show that some are trying to do the change from within thing that people here keep asking them to do.
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Pity party, nice.
Can we move on yet, or do you still feel the need to educate the thread on tolerance of religious groups?
Because, you know, that's not the subject of this thread in any way.
But please, continue.
No one said "ALL CHRISTIANS HATE GAYS."
"Many Christians are anti-gay bigots" was definitely said. (True, depending on definition of many)
So was, "The overwhelmingly vast leadership of Christian sects hold anti-gay bigotry to be an ideal." (Also true)
I'll throw out another one: "Christians revere and base their faith on a single, governing holy text which holds anti-gay bigotry as an ideal as part of its tenets."
Edit: Late on reading the "this is what kills our threads." I'll stop, although I don't see how you discuss LGBTT rights without discussing the fact that Christians are the driving factor behind having to have a discussion about LGBTT rights.
Question: Has anybody actually said "ALL Christians are anti-gay bigots?" or just "Christians are anti-gay bigots?"
Because the second phrase allows for the 1-2% that aren't utter ass-clowns without having to specifically mention them every time to spare their feelings.
I don't care if you're offended by it, it's true. Not all Christians hate us. It's a fact now. It's a GOOD thing; I don't see why people aren't more willing to be happy about it.
It's impossible, but you can let the convo die down so that it's not a continuous religious discussion.
I myself realized one page back that I am part of the problem, and that's why I pointed it out.
Much better for me to do it than a mod to notice, because the response is quite often to simply declare that the thread has run it's course and lock it, and then we wait several months before we have another general GLBT thread (note: This has actually happened-a lot).
I want to defend it because it'll make our lives better if we can realize they all aren't gunning for us anymore and, simply, I've been really blown away by some of the reactions we got when the Gay Men's Chorus went and sang at some churches.
Granted, I'll always be on guard around anyone who says they're a Christian and I probably will be the rest of my life but it sure would be nice if I didn't have to be.
Yeah, true.
So how about that Elton John, huh? What a cranky old bitch.
Recently I moved to a new country, New Zealand (Got my residency this week as well, yay)
Very scary experience, leaving everything and everyone, and moving half-way across the world with no job.
One of the first groups I interacted with was a church group, due to some family thing. Everybody there was really nice and accepting, offers to help with everything from a place to stay, job hunting, furniture (for free), leisure activities etc.
I don't know their stance on Gay rights, it's not like that had a brochure or information packet that contained that information, or an EULA that I had to sign. It never came up, it might never come up. It's also not something that I probably would even have considered. If I didn't have my partner, or some very good friends already over here, I probably would have joined the church. Not for the religion, or the whom they support X number of steps removed, but for the community and support.
Now the point of that is, if I needed (or thought I needed) that support, making me pick between them or you (you in an "other" sense), even though you're in the moral right, might make me choose the more rational and selfish option of me. However, saying that you can go over to that group, and get everything that this group gives you without the hate might be a better argument. Well if the argument is to get more visible pro-gay people.
It’s not a very important country most of the time
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I was pretty shocked by what he said, it was really... aggressive.
I'm not sure I feel about it though because Madonna can be a snarky bitch herself, and she has supposedly been quite mean about Lady Gaga for a while now, and it's not like she and Elton have ever gotten along anyway.
I'm sorry. I hope they come around.
-edit-
And to clarify my point that started this whole mess... I know not all Christians are bigots. I just don't understand why the ones who aren't assholes are not as loud as the ones who are.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
"Enough of them hate the gays that there's nothing wrong with generalizing like this" is a thing that was said.
Could've left it where it was without that response, eh? Be clearer in your posts and you wouldn't have people taking issue with them.
I mean, I don't know wtf you thought this meant:
Or why you're so confused by the response but whatever, I suppose I'm just being noxious again.
So yes, let's please move on.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
I usually agree with what you say, but every now and then I kind of wanna go
Hey
Maybe take it down a step
Or five
I dunno
That's an interesting question, but I think it's true of every group. The assholes are always the most vocal. I'm not sure why that is, maybe because the non assholes don't feel the need to fuck around with people so they're less likely to speak out?
You'd think he'd know better than most that non-straight people can play straight very well, considering his own identification.
Then again, this is also the guy that said watching Chris Colfer on Glee is like "stepping into a puddle of HIV" so fuck him and his attempts at being edgy, really.
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Thanks. I do, too, however disowning me over refusing to keep my "lifestyle" to myself after knowing for over a decade seems to me to say that they won't get over it. My dad and sister both think it is a CHOICE. Have they ever discussed it with me? No.
And when I tried to bring it up, I was shouted down.
There's ignorance and there's willful ignorance.
I don't even think it's the "it's difficult to discuss" argument; I think they don't want anything shattering their bullshit straw man arguments, so they won't let me discuss it.
Honestly, my life has no room for that kind of crap, I don't care if they're blood family or not.
I know in practice people's religion is most likely just their family's religion, but that's kind of the problem with it. Certainly religious people would like to be able to justify their beliefs beyond "that's what my parents told me to believe."
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Official language (written by committee, somewhat obviously) of the plank in the Democratic platform that will be supporting gay marriage in a little less than a month.
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That seems kind of odd. Doesn't that remove the possibility of any sort of treatment, particularly corrective surgery?
It does seem strange. I'm not sure I agree with it.
Unlike homosexuality, being transgender is a situation where there are treatments, actual legitimate medical treatments, that alleviate suffering and improve the quality of life.
That certainly suggests there is, you know, an "illness" of some sort. No one is suggesting it's like cancer or having a tapeworm.
I'm sure there are some transgendered people who feel like they are perfect and perfectly happy with their physical sex being one way and their gender identity being the other.
But I doubt they are in the majority. Every transgender person I have met has at least used hormones, even if they have declined any surgery.
And it will be treated as the physical malady it is rather than the mental one.
At least that's my take away.
Well now I HAVE to.
-edit-
I need to start drinking now.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Isn't that the rule for everything on the internet ever?
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