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Battery question

MKRMKR Registered User regular
I ordered two of these: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007JL60U2/

The shipper sent two that have "680 mAh" printed on the side instead of 900. I contacted them about it, and got this in response:
The battery you got is the correct battery.
Different manufactures use different scales to measure the mAh, but they all meet the specifications of the OEM and have the same output and usage time. If you would prefer we can exchange it for ones that have a higher printed mAh, but it would give the same amount of usage time.

I know next to nothing about batteries, so I can't say whether or not this is true. It seems weird, but I know how common it is for different standard measurements to show up.

Posts

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    I don't know either, but according to the listing what you ordered was "Power2000 NB-11L Replacement Lithium-Ion Battery, 3.6 volt 900mAh, for Canon Powershot ELPH 110 HS Series Cameras". Are the batteries you got not from that manufacturer? If not, why did they not send you what the listing said they would, which is what you ordered? If they are from that manufacturer, there is no "different standards between manufacturers" to worry about, so why bother saying that in response?

    Like I said, I don't know anything about it and maybe it's not even a big deal, but it seems sketchy to me.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    The seller has about 7000 ratings with a lot of "got the wrong item, but it works the same" and "seller had [x] problem but resolved it satisfactorily." I would have gone with another seller if I looked deeper into all those 4/5 and 5/5 ratings.

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    I would probably send it back and say "Please send me what I ordered and paid for or give me my money back and I will buy it somewhere else." But I am persnickety and if I paid for another 220 mAh I want my damn 220 mAh. It sounds like they are getting people to pay for a bigger number but giving out a smaller number and going "eh, it's fine." But it's not fine because that's not what you ordered and paid for.

    Now if they'd sent you an email ahead of time saying "sorry, we seem to be out of stock but these work just as well because of X, would you like them instead?" that would be different somehow. But they didn't do that, they just shipped you a different item.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • CycloneRangerCycloneRanger Registered User regular
    Amp-hours measure electrical charge; for a fixed voltage a change in the Amp-hour capacity of a battery means a proportional change in the amount of energy stored in it. These are obviously two different batteries with the same voltage, so it looks like they sent you a crappier battery.

    Manufacturers using "different scales to measure the mAh" sounds like a load of shit--it's not something that's difficult to measure or standardize. You either have a given capacity or you don't, and 680 mAh at 3.6 volts is less than 900 mAh at 3.6 volts.

  • Bendery It Like BeckhamBendery It Like Beckham Hopeless Registered User regular
    Amp-hours measure electrical charge; for a fixed voltage a change in the Amp-hour capacity of a battery means a proportional change in the amount of energy stored in it. These are obviously two different batteries with the same voltage, so it looks like they sent you a crappier battery.

    Manufacturers using "different scales to measure the mAh" sounds like a load of shit--it's not something that's difficult to measure or standardize. You either have a given capacity or you don't, and 680 mAh at 3.6 volts is less than 900 mAh at 3.6 volts.

    this.

  • GethGeth Legion Perseus VeilRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    Thanks to @ceres, @Bendery It Like Beckham has been taken into custody and will be processed for... 'questioning'.

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited December 2012
    Uhh.. haha. Whoops.

    *clears throat*

    CARRY ON

    ceres on
    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    BATTERIES

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    AND BATTERY-RELATED RAGE

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    I have things to say once this is resolved that will make this thread more useful to anyone who encounters the same problem.

  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    One thing though: I've been all over the interbutts looking for something to corroborate this story. One random thing I found is that using a battery that holds too much power can cause problems if the device isn't designed to work with it. Canon doesn't actually make a battery greater than 680 mHa in this model, but I've seen private label batteries for it as high as 1000 mHa.

    Am I misapplying concerns for one thing to another?

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Um, I am not an electrician, but my understanding is that the number of amp-hours refers ONLY to how long the thing can last, and is nothing to do necessarily with the charge delivered. If someone is out there engineering higher-powered batteries for this model, I would think it would be okay. In other words if the battery is designed to work with that camera, I think it should. I don't *think* it should be a problem unless the delivered charge is higher. If you were cramming a battery in there not meant to work with your device, that could absolutely be a problem. There are people around here who know more about this than me and I will cheerfully stand corrected on this entire paragraph since I'm only working with a two semesters of Physics. :P

    The issue is, the seller doesn't know anything about what camera you have. They know only that you ordered X battery, and they gave you battery Y along with a seemingly bogus dismissal.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    The camera is in the battery's product name. I think it's a new battery type for a new camera type, because who needs reliable standards. But yeah, it's bogus, and I will make things right.

    polite rage though, until I get the correct battery

    MKR on
  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Question: Is the 680 version from that seller cheaper? If it is and you're nervous after all you could just ask for a refund down to the right amount for the batteries you received.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    The price was the same as if I went with another seller that charged for shipping.

    edit: I misread. I didn't check to see if they had a 680.

    edit: they don't have a 680

    MKR on
  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    amp-hours technically is a unit of electric charge, but the easiest way to think of it is just how long the battery will last.

    Can you list the exact specs of the batteries you ordered, and the ones that were delivered?

    I don't really see how 680 mAh can be the same as 900 mAh... like CycloneRanger said, at a fixed voltage for both of these ratings, it literally means the one with the lower number has less energy stored in it.

  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    The battery I ordered is 3.6V and 900mAh. The battery I got is 3.6V and 680mAh.

    MKR on
  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Is there any other information on the battery? model numbers? anything else written on there at all
    MKR wrote: »
    One thing though: I've been all over the interbutts looking for something to corroborate this story. One random thing I found is that using a battery that holds too much power can cause problems if the device isn't designed to work with it. Canon doesn't actually make a battery greater than 680 mHa in this model, but I've seen private label batteries for it as high as 1000 mHa.

    Am I misapplying concerns for one thing to another?

    As far as I know there is no danger or risk of damage of using a battery with a higher mAh rating, but I'm not 100% on that.

    If the voltage was off or the battery clearly wasn't designed for the application then I would be more concerned.

    Al_wat on
  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    I think it's a private label battery without the label. It looks just like every other brand of 680 mAh, 3.6V NB-11L battery, down to the typography. Do a GIS for NB-11L and you'll see what I mean.

    On the plus side, what I paid for it appears to be the normal price for the battery. Even the 900 mAh batteries are around that price, no matter which brand is on it. I'm still going to get them to swap it out, but it's probably just ignorance on the part of the support person.

    MKR on
  • djmitchelladjmitchella Registered User regular
    The other thing is that with off-label batteries, the number on the outside is pretty much meaningless anyway. They all claim to be "equivalent to manufacturer original" but I've seen them vary between about the same capacity, and less than 1/3 of the life of the real thing. Without appropriate testing equipment you can't be sure what's going on in there.

    (you could try counting the number of photos that a known good original battery will take, then compare that to the number of the new battery and see what that tells you, I guess -- that's what really matters in the end, after all)

  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    Less than 1/3 the life for less than 1/3 the price is a good bargain since I don't take many shots when I shoot. I would invest in a spare from Canon if I planned to shoot some important event. I wouldn't even consider a generic if this were a DSLR or fancier P&S.

    It's possible I'll shoot more with a more portable camera than what I've been using. If that's the case, I'll shell out almost half the camera's value for a Canon battery just to be sure.

  • GihgehlsGihgehls Registered User regular
    Re: if higher capacity batteries will work:

    Lithium ion batteries almost always require a management system (BMS) to monitor charge levels and ensure safe charging. For larger batteries, these are built into the battery (think laptop batteries with their LED charge-level indicator: That's the BMS). Probing a lithium ion battery and accurately determining its state of charge (SOC) isn't really possible. The best way to do it is to count the energy coming in and count the energy going out. That's why the BMS is built into the battery-- It can't ever get detached from its counter.

    Since this is a tiny lipo pack, there is a possibility that it doesn't have its own BMS and depends on the camera to monitor the battery health. Thus, it is possible that the camera's firmware is only expecting 650mAh, and when charging only goes up that high and then stops. I have no inside information about how Cannon programs their battery management, I'm just saying that there are a few possibilities. Definitely get your money back or a pack rated for 1000mAh, as other posters have said they are not equivalent packs.

    PA-gihgehls-sig.jpg
  • madparrotmadparrot Registered User regular
    As others have noted, mAh is just a measure of the battery's capacity. Saying a 680 is equivalent to a 900 of the same voltage is just like saying a gallon is equivalent to a gallon-and-a-half. After rereading the seller's response, though, I'm thinking they meant something other that what it appears they meant. They say the two batteries are the same except for the 900's "higher printed mAh" due to the different standards used by the manufacturer to measure them, "printed" being the operative word. I think they may have been trying to tell you the 900mAh is just a 680 that has been handwaved by the manufacturer to look larger!

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    I think the point is that it's not the seller's decision to make. If they don't want to sell 900s no one is forcing them, but if you say you're going to sell them you don't charge for them and then send something else.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • curly haired boycurly haired boy Your Friendly Neighborhood Torgue Dealer Registered User regular
    the amp-hour rating is mostly just an indicator of overall battery life. you can think of it along the lines of a AAA battery compared to a D battery. both are going to give you 1.5 volts, but the D battery is going to give you that for a MUCH longer time. (i'm not going to get into current draw right now)

    for cameras, flashes eat up a ton of power, so generally the higher amp-hour rating the better. does your camera have a separate charger for the battery (i.e. you remove the battery to charge it, like a cordless drill)? because if it does, then the charging station is much more likely to be able to handle a variety of amp-hour ratings. if it charges inside the camera body itself, then that likelihood drops significantly.

    RxI0N.png
    Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    The manual's section on the charger says the charge time is "2 hours (when using NB-11L)," which makes me think it's designed to take batteries with different capacities.

  • SloSlo Registered User regular
    MKR wrote: »
    The manual's section on the charger says the charge time is "2 hours (when using NB-11L)," which makes me think it's designed to take batteries with different capacities.

    As long as the voltage is the same, you can use whatever mAh batteries you'd like.

    A higher voltage is the thing that damages electrical equipment. (Technically, not accurate, but for casual purposes, its true)

  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    edited December 2012
    The seller sent you a battery that is inferior to the one you ordered, he then told you that they are equivalent which is a lie. The seller is scamming you.

    You have the choice of going through the hassle to get a return, or accept that you were scammed and move on like many of the previous purchasers have done (as evidenced from the "got the wrong item, but it works the same" feedback)

    Veevee on
  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Already got the exchange. It was no hassle: they sent me a prepaid label, I taped it on to the original package, and sent it off. They swapped them for batteries from this company that have 1120 mAh printed on the side. I'm going to see how well they work before passing judgement.

    Amazon's marketplace policies do allow for equivalents, and I have no reason to object if it really is equivalent to what I ordered.

    MKR on
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