Yeah, as much as I love the game and the possible deconstructions of its art, I've no reason to think it's (potential) artistic statements are anything but a happy accident.
i am pretty sure i could deliver a 30 minute monologue on the sexual politics of bayonetta and pretend it is the most progressive game of all time but the whole time i would know that actually they just liked art deco and butterflies and flowers and glasses.
To triple post, he isn't kidding. He has given me this monologue before.
Yeah, as much as I love the game and the possible deconstructions of its art, I've no reason to think it's (potential) artistic statements are anything but a happy accident.
i am pretty sure i could deliver a 30 minute monologue on the sexual politics of bayonetta and pretend it is the most progressive game of all time but the whole time i would know that actually they just liked art deco and butterflies and flowers and glasses.
To triple post, he isn't kidding. He has given me this monologue before.
SoundsPlush's focus on the shoes is the best example. Nothing shows more overtly that female characters in games are made sexier at the expense of logical character design than sticking them in high heels. It's as ridiculous as if every male character in a video game ran around in the tightest possible jorts that outlined their junk perfectly, even if they were a space marine or a police officer or Indiana Jones.
Hey now, have you seen a heavy set woman obliviously squeeze herself into tight spandex like a summer sausage, tapping around on seven inch high heels as though she were on a pair of stilts? If that's not the definition of dressing video game sexy, I don't know what is.
(In all seriousness though, I have seen this. It...takes courage, I'll just stick to that.)
Look, if Dragon Age 2 isn't a game we can hold up and be like, "Ehh, close enough." Maybe we just need to burn video games to the ground and start over with Pong, Asteroids, and see if we've learned anything by the time we work our way up to being able to render characters who look like people again.
We should never be happy with "close enough" in art. We should always be pushing to make better art.
Sure sure, but I mean compared to other games of the era we're in--Bioware is producing fairly exemplary work, and it would be a big step forward if other companies did treat female characters as well as they did, even if that's not enough in the ultimate sense.
I...deal with this issue on two completely different levels. I have what I hope are logical, reasonable attitudes based on evidence, and experience and thought. I also have 2 daughters, ages 13 and 23. That informs pretty heavily on my attitudes.
I like being catered to, and a huge appeal of video games is fantasy/wish fulfillment. This is a business, and I think any meaningful action has to come from an acknowledgment that what gets made for the most part will be what sells. This somewhat goes to another issue I have. Clothing manufacturers have no vested interest in making your 12 year old look like a whore. For some reason (regardless of its origin), most 12 year olds, or their parents, like looking like whores, and the market provides. Yes, a lot of industry people aren't functioning at a particularly high level when it comes to dealing with human beings and their relations with one another and that makes it worse, but market forces are huge, and will continue the be the biggest factor.
I don't buy th argument that things are at a low. I think they are at a high. That doesn't mean they can't, or shouldn't get better, just that the fact that we're having this conversation at all is meaningful. That guy on the gaming gameshow that was a complete monster to the gamer who was female, that guy is not someone I want to have anything to do with. I imagine many other people feel the same way. The more incidents happen like that, the more the ugliness is drug out into the light, the more people in general will have to decide where they stand on the subject and weigh in.
I know what side I would like them to weigh in on, that people are people and gender is just another tool in the toolkit for telling stories and relationships, but there seems to be a presupposition that this will be the case. I think part of having a real discussion about this is accepting the possibility that the majority of consumers are looking for nothing but a well presented set of tits/sexual fetish/object for two reasons.
1) Acknowledging the possibility may galvanize those who would be inclined to remain silent under the assumption that, "of course most people don't think that way" to actually speak up.
2) If it turns out to be true, and the majority of consumers are sexist shits, you're going to be most affective at changing those attitudes if you start with reality and go from there. If you think it's a shitty vocal minority and it's actually a passive quiet majority, your tactics aren't going to be as effective.
I dunno. I thought femshep was great. I thought the female grey warden in the DA games was pretty great too. I tend to play female protagonists when I can, when I feel they are done well, if anything just for the novelty. Maybe that says a whole lot right there. I thought Kreia was amazing. I thought Bayonetta was pretty great too. They're all games I'd actually like my daughters to play (well, I'd prefer if the 13 year old held off a bit on Bayonetta, but that's more so that I can pretend she's still my little girl).
I look at an actress like Michelle Rodriguez, who has always refused to be the romantic interest, or the damsel in distress. And that made her typecast into the hard ass chick who always ends up dying to show how real shit has just gotten. And she knows it and she's chosen it and she owns it. I respect that, and I think my daughters could do with a worse example.
I think there's plenty of room for escapist fantasy, be it sexual, power or even architectural. But I would also like to see a lot more of what I would call normal healthy characterization: what someone referred to above as a Strong Lead (female ) as opposed to a Strong Female (lead), or whatever you want to preceed (female) with. Lets celebrate and encourage well written characters all around. Perhaps I am naive, but I think that's going to do more to bring better portrayals all around.
If there is kick ass female talent out there (and I take it as fact that there is) the companies and developers who are willing to tap into it will be at a distinct advantage advantage over those who don't. That's double the depth of talent and double the market if things are really equal. Even if they aren't, it's still an advantage, and in business, any advantage is, well, an advantage.
And ultimately, choose with your money. The market speaks and everyone listens. Those that don't cease to exist pretty quickly.
Look, they want a character wearing a catsuit like Miranda where they justify it because she says she uses everything she has to distract or gain or edge or whatever, alright. It's fine to have a character like that.
I don't even like this. It's fucking lazy garbage. You know what gives you more of an advantage than a bodysuit? Subtlety. Charm. If you dress like your clothes were put on by a shrink wrap machine, no man in the universe will trust you. It's not an advantage in any halfway competently built universe.
The "seductress" trope is outdated, offensive, and only works on characters written to be stupid hormone slaves.
Except it works in our universe every day. Look at the sales industry or any number of political scandals.
Maybe in an ideal universe it would not, but we don't live in one.
Now that does sound like good reason for it not to work in a made up one. I agree with the general thrust of your point, but not the supporting argument.
Most interns, nannies, and family friends don't dress like strippers (despite what porn would have us believe), so a seductress-type character can clearly do her seducing without her boobs hanging out, or visible pantyline or whatever.
Except it works in our universe every day. Look at the sales industry or any number of political scandals.
I... what? What political scandal has featured anyone dressed in latex in any capacity?
I'm talking specifically about the "I seduce people to get what I want, and my primary tool for this job is to dress in shiny vacuformed outfits" trope.
Edit: Basically, if you start with sex appeal and come up with a reason for it, that's weak, and you're a hack. If you come up with a good character and it makes a bit of sense for her to be sexy, that's fine (but tread carefully).
This might be a symptom of the problem but,
I don't think how females look is the demeaning part, so much as how they behave?
The demeaning part is how much of their portrayal is defined by their relations to males.
How characters look is definitely part of the problem. Again, Mass Effect. Well written characters, horribly designed. Why does a millenia-old mystical ascetic whose approach to criminals involve blunt trauma wear a strawberry catsuit with a huge cleavage window and gigantic heels? It doesn't make any sense for the character, but time and time again female characters get characteristics designed solely to make them visually appealing to male gaze. Look, they want a character wearing a catsuit like Miranda where they justify it because she says she uses everything she has to distract or gain or edge or whatever, alright. It's fine to have a character like that. Every character being like that, regardless of reason (no reason, in this cases)? That's something else.
Or take Samus in Other M. Now at some point in the franchise they decided that Samus needed to have a catsuit under her armor and needed to run around in a catsuit, which would be like Halo 5 featuring Master Chief deciding to wear a speedo for awhile instead of MJOLNIR, but in Other M they decided that in addition to having a vacuum-sealed suit (which looks pretty uncomfortable, seriously), she needed to have gigantic wedge platforms, which makes a lot of sense for an acrobatic, active combatant in a setting that is more or less trying to be serious.
And again, I'm okay with, say, Catwoman's design, because her alter-ego is based on being alluring. But everyone being like that all the time is a joke.
I didn't play Other M, but I thought the biggest complaint people had was how despite being an action girl, Samus still unquestionably does what some former commander dude says, is constantly seeking his approval, and whines incessantly.
Also why is utility a consideration in a creative medium unconstrained by it, when the product can be made more enjoyable by prettifying it?
Fair point about females wearing ridiculous outfits, though I could say that's because the implication is that they only wear it for males to gawk at.
I don't even like this. It's fucking lazy garbage. You know what gives you more of an advantage than a bodysuit? Subtlety. Charm. If you dress like your clothes were put on by a shrink wrap machine, no man in the universe will trust you. It's not an advantage in any halfway competently built universe.
The "seductress" trope is outdated, offensive, and only works on characters written to be stupid hormone slaves.
Alright, sure. My point is I don't care if an occasional character is wearing a catsuit or dressed to appeal in whatever way. I'm not saying any terrible in-universe justification works—I still remember that thread by someone in which he went through a laundry list of sexist icons and justified each with things like "it makes sense to wear a bikini on beach planet"—but that I don't even really care to argue justification beyond establishing the pattern. In talking about the broad spectrum I don't care if a character is dressed that way even if the reason is stupid and doesn't make sense for the character, so long as it's a rare thing instead of the norm that crops up everywhere reflexively because the only thought given to female character design is "what's hot to us?".
If they were fringe cases they'd still be dumb but I wouldn't care about them beyond a roll of the eyes because they wouldn't represent cultural force.
It's not just the female characters in the games, or the number of female developers. It's a fascinating and deserved conversation to have, but I think we're avoiding the elephant in the room.
It's us as a community. Well, maybe not the Penny Arcade community, because I think people here are quite decent, but the gaming community as a whole.
Look, a lot of the people in the video gaming industry today started playing games when they were kids. They developed a passion for gaming and decided to pursue that passion to create games of their own. How many young women possibly started down that path, or are starting down that path now, and are being driven off due to the rampant misogyny by some male gamers, particularly in online games? You aren't going to get more women in the industry if they're driven off before they even start pursuing a job in it. I admittedly can't easily imagine what it's like to be a woman playing an online game, but I wouldn't want to enter into an industry where I have to hide my gender when playing online so I don't run the risk of having to put up with constant harassment, or getting requests to show off my tits, or receiving threats of sexual assault. I wouldn't want to enter into an industry where some of the consumers react to the idea of a feminist critique of games by defiling the critic's Wikipedia page, DDoSing her website, creating a game that mimics beating her up, threatening sexual assault, etc. I wouldn't want to enter an industry where a well-known name in the fighting game community basically says that sexual harassment is simply part of the culture. I wouldn't want to enter into an industry where any article about what female gamers have to put up with is met by repeated comments about a woman's looks, or jokes about being in the kitchen, or any of the other usual bullshit. Again, I can't put myself in a woman's shoes, but I can easily see someone's response to that being "fuck that, I don't want to put up with anything like that", and they never pursue it any further. The repercussions for harassment by gamers online are far too lax, IMO, and hammering down a lot harder on the silly geese who spew misogyny would probably help considerably. Behavior like that is simply never okay, and it needs to be cracked down on much harder than it currently is. At times it seems like there is progress on this front, and then at other times, seeing some of the comments from the various articles makes me think we aren't nearly as far along as we need to be.
A lot of us here have been bullied, or know someone who has been bullied. And we know that that can make life hellish. Especially if that behavior is reported and little to nothing is done about it, and the behavior continues, implicitly condoning that behavior. It seems to me that's what women who play games online are going through. And if they can just easily walk away from the harassment and never deal with gamer culture again, why wouldn't they? Men don't have to put up with that, and in many cases, a man can grow up playing games and not be harassed by others, so that passion and desire to create games never goes away. That doesn't seem to happen with women.
The gaming industry will certainly be helped by having more women. Having stronger female characters will help. I don't disagree with that at all. But the problem of sexism in gaming involves so much more than just not having enough strong female characters in games, or fear of retaliation in company settings, or female developers being confused for booth babes. Addressing those issues will certainly help, but I feel like they're part of a much larger problem. If women who play games are treated terribly by their male counterparts and are driven away due to the hostile community, you're not going to have a whole lot of them wanting to join the industry in the first place, and the change that we're talking about is not going to happen very quickly.
It's not just the female characters in the games, or the number of female developers. It's a fascinating and deserved conversation to have, but I think we're avoiding the elephant in the room.
I don't know if we're really avoiding the elephant in the room: literally the first reply to this thread was largely about how it's us who are the problem. We could talk even more about it but it's impossible to find anyone who will ever defend this kind of behavior: the problem isn't that people stick up for it, it's that they do it. So if you do it, stop doing it. The mods here are pretty good about infracting this sort of shit so it's not widespread here.
I wish people would maybe think about Metroid a bit before praising it as progressive until that game appeared and suddenly took 50 steps back.
From game ONE you can put in a code that puts Samus in a bathing suit, and every game thereafter is adamant about showing Samus in her undies whenever you die or beat the game quickly enough. One of the best examples we got for women as characters, and she's still objectified even before Zero Suit Samus ruined everything.
Yeah, the handling of Samus was generally not very good*, but she at least had something going for her in being an early female protagonist and one considered powerful, thoughtful, and independent within the setting. As a legacy, she still has potential, assuming someone else develops it.
*Except by Retro. Prime, which predated the creation of the Zero suit, had a pretty realistic design which only showed her face for the highest clear, until they were mandated to use the Zero suit and corresponding Samus design for the other two games.
The gaming community as a whole is a gross simplification. You might as well say the entire internet.
Presuming the entirety of the community is overtly misogynistic, it's not that difficult to enjoy games without it.
A lot of people in the industry aren't driven by a love for games, so much as the technical or creative challenges contained within it.
Look, if Dragon Age 2 isn't a game we can hold up and be like, "Ehh, close enough." Maybe we just need to burn video games to the ground and start over with Pong, Asteroids, and see if we've learned anything by the time we work our way up to being able to render characters who look like people again.
We should never be happy with "close enough" in art. We should always be pushing to make better art.
Sure sure, but I mean compared to other games of the era we're in--Bioware is producing fairly exemplary work, and it would be a big step forward if other companies did treat female characters as well as they did, even if that's not enough in the ultimate sense.
Bio Ware?!? Fucking seriously?
Bio " we don't have homosexuals in Mass Effect no those aren't females they're aliens yes we know they have breasts and look like females and title each other with female titles but they still aren't oh yeah Morrrigan isn't wearing a shirt" Ware??
Yeah, I don't think exemplary means what you think it means.
Borderlands 2?
The Walking Dead?
Xcom??
Portal 2?
L.A. Noire??
Heavy rain???
Okami??
I wouldn't say gender figures too heavily in the majority of video games, positive negative or otherwise.
I didn't count games that just lets you play as a female character, since that's not the game saying something about women.
Look, if Dragon Age 2 isn't a game we can hold up and be like, "Ehh, close enough." Maybe we just need to burn video games to the ground and start over with Pong, Asteroids, and see if we've learned anything by the time we work our way up to being able to render characters who look like people again.
We should never be happy with "close enough" in art. We should always be pushing to make better art.
Sure sure, but I mean compared to other games of the era we're in--Bioware is producing fairly exemplary work, and it would be a big step forward if other companies did treat female characters as well as they did, even if that's not enough in the ultimate sense.
Bio Ware?!? Fucking seriously?
Bio " we don't have homosexuals in Mass Effect no those aren't females they're aliens yes we know they have breasts and look like females and title each other with female titles but they still aren't oh yeah Morrrigan isn't wearing a shirt" Ware??
Yeah, I don't think exemplary means what you think it means.
You haven't met Kelly have you?
I think there's an assumption here that sexiness is wrong. Sexiness is great. It's a great attribute in characters. When sexiness is the only attribute that's bad because it's bad writing.
Game designers and writers. In fact, I think it is the responsibility of storytellers to shift social norms.
I 100% agree with this.
The previous mentionings of Twilight are a terrible example. Despite the fact that it was written, acted, and directed by a woman, it wasn't meant to be a woman empowering story. It was meant to sell copies to teenage women in much the same way that many video games are aimed at selling copies to teenage men.
To me, a good, if non-gaming, example of female empowerment is Laura K. Hamilton's "Anita Blake" series. Her characterization of Anita Blake reminds me alot of one of my co-workers, that I consider to be a very empowered woman (she's a manager in a heavily male management environment). So, you see her not only acting in a manner of the male empowerment, but also in that of having the female touches such as her descriptions of her wardrobe and love issues.
There are certainly good examples of female PC's in video games. Most of the Bioware games (KotOR, KotOR II, TOR, Jade Empire) have done well with female leads. The best example that I can think of, though, is playing a female protagonist in Fallout 2. As one example, you had the option of playing a character of either gender in that game, who could be hetero, homo, or bisexual. It gave you the freedom to do almost anything as the protagonist.
The episode of HAWP where they compared player choices in Skyrim to those in Saints Row 3 really showed that a female player had more options in character design and freedom in SR3 than in Skyrim. Which is funny, because Skyrim is supposed to be all about an open ended world with choices, and SR3 is basically a big fart joke.
So my question for the discussion here is, "What are the traits of an empowered female?" Is it a woman who can kick ass just as well as a guy, but has good fashion sense? Is it like in many of the Hollywood stories of an older empowered woman leading her family or dealing with family conflicts? Or is it too complicated to boil down to a list of traits?
I mean, as a male, I have my view of what an empowered woman is, but I don't know if that jives up with their view.
I remember reading that the Borderlands Designers had a lot of trouble with coming up for an empowered female protagonist for Lillith. For the guys, it was easy. Take a guy, add a bunch of muscles, make him badass, done. That approach didn't work for a woman, because ultimately that kind of woman is a turn off for a woman or a man, because she can out-masculine the other males. The solution they came up with was to do a pretty, but not slutty, female character, and give her powers not related to brute strength or toughness, but due to her magical prowess (Siren). In that way, she would be appealing both genders and still be a badass.
The first step to addressing an issue like this isn't to "hire more women" or "hire more women in positions of power" or anything like that. The first step should be to ask "What do women want in a female lead?", and the second step should be how to give that to them. In the modern market, the second step really becomes "How do we give that to them, without also alienating our male audience?". Answers like "more women in the industry" are part of the second step, not the first.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
also, the "more women in the field will sort things out" argument annoys me quite a bit because it's a bit of a passive response that avoids combating issues right now and puts them off until women move, apparently via osmosis, into the field. and also how are women eager to make things less toxic going to move into a field that is actively hostile to their presence? by being insanely thick skinned? by implanting themselves into the industry as sleeper agents, acting unconcerned about sexism until a certain phrase reactivates their "destroy the patriarchy" circuits?
as folks have said the main solution here is to get more ladies in the business and STEM fields in general
a good way to do this is to make the existing contributions of ladies more visible to break down the perception that technical fields are just for dudes
hashtag number one reason why does a p. good job of increasing visibility, but I feel like it should be balanced with a more positive companion campaign that highlights what ladies in the industry have done, do daily, and can do in the future
that article about how a creepy scenario in dragon age three was avoided is a good example
this is my first post in this thread wherein I highlight #1reasonwhy and, though I didn't know it existed yet, #1reasontobe and #1reasonmentors as ways to increase the visibility of the current contributions of ladies in the field and allow them to reach out to and encourage future lady developers
and, again, it won't do diddly if attitudes and spending habits don't change. getting ladies into the field won't help as much as everyone wants to believe, getting ladies (and gays and lesbians let's be a little more inclusive here) interested in the hobby and buying things they want WILL
Actually I think that this is the reason Twilight is more important and even worthwhile than people realize.
Because it shows that the attitude "well we never get any sales from this audience so they must not want to buy." is based mostly on the fact that you aren't pandering to that audience.
Pander to that audience, even with schlock like Twilight, and suddenly you're rich. Because no one else is bothering to pander to them.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
I didn't play Other M, but I thought the biggest complaint people had was how despite being an action girl, Samus still unquestionably does what some former commander dude says, is constantly seeking his approval, and whines incessantly.
Oh, I missed this post. Yeah, Other M is a mess all around, and Samus's sudden deferential behavior through the dumb plot is the big issue, but like I said, it's not an either/or: appearance is also a big issue, as it is with the other examples (exclusively, in some of those cases, since their actual writing is pretty good).
Also why is utility a consideration in a creative medium unconstrained by it, when the product can be made more enjoyable by prettifying it?
More enjoyable for who?
Fair point about females wearing ridiculous outfits, though I could say that's because the implication is that they only wear it for males to gawk at.
Yeah but then you'd be telling me that all of these female characters wearing ridiculous outfits, largely made by men, have an implied but never-addressed desire to be gawked at by men. Which, to rephrase, is to say that sex objects made by men "intend" to be seen like sex objects for men.
Males are not designed with a heavy slant towards sex-appeal? I think they are. Most if not all of them. What there is not is "bimbos", as you say. But most men are designed to look appealing, and if you have ever spent more than 3 seconds in deviantart you will know that they have their share of female fans that make them do unspeakable things. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Stereotypes of and to the detriment or benefit of the dominant cultural group are not the same as Stereotypes of and to the detriment or benefit to minority or non dominant groups.
Just like insults are not the same. When we use tropes for minority groups the impact carries the weight of the culture surrounding them. We might say the same for using tropes for majority groups, but the weight of the culture towards majority groups is significantly less than those towards minority groups.
Cortana was probably on the "better" side of the spectrum* but can easily illustrate the issue. To me(a white male who grew up primarily in the 80's/90's who only played Halo 1), Cortana always looked like a "tron person" and tron people were always in these skin tight suits with electronics on them because that is what computer programs looked like. But to people who are less familiar with that aesthetic it looks like the same thing that culture has reinforced upon women.
It is important to note that it has this effect regardless of the intention of the author or creator because the effect it has is not determined by intent, but by the experiences of the audience in the culture they inhabit.
It is probably easiest to say that our culture has a general male positive outlook and so cultural ideal portrayals of women carry with them that male positive outlook. Females are discriminated against in most aspects of society though more often than not in a subconscious and systematic rather than overt way. This is to say that many males won't even realize they're discriminating or acting in a negative manner when they're doing so[even those clued into the system], but the effects are still felt regardless.
In "gaming" culture the many of the negative and overt aspects of this are particularly prominent. Cortana is just an aspect of this which is being pointed out, likely because many people will recognize Halo as compared to other titles and so the discussion cannot be brushed off as "fringe". There may also be other issues surrounding why Cortana is being pointed out, but I am unaware of them specifically.
*I say this on the understanding you don't know about the comments which indicate that AI's can wear whatever clothes they want, that just makes it really weird.
I would agree, except Cortana's appearance has changed with every game, becoming more and more sexualised. Hell, load up Halo CE:A and swap between old-style graphics and updated. Yeah she's always had no clothes, but more recent Cortana is absolutely designed to look 'hotter'.
What I'd like to hear is the opinions from the number of women who are high up at 343. I'm also really intrigued to see where Halo 5 goes.
I was weirded out by Traynor, because she looked too much like Shepard in my game. I was like, "Are you trying... are you trying to become Shepard?"
I had the exact same problem! I was weirded out. I actually thought she was one of those characters deliberately designed to mimic your character's appearance, like, in Deus Ex where JC's appearance dictates Paul's appearance. Until I played my second playthrough I thought that was what she was.
The fact that Bioware put a couple of homosexual characters into ME3 that were exclusively homosexual is really cool. It seems like everyone being straight or bi is more often the case.
Magic Pink's point wasn't about whether there are openly gay characters in ME 2/3, the point was about the ME1 era when bioware was vehemently insisting that a liara/femshep romance wasn't lesbian in nature (because lore pedantry) and therefore it couldn't be exploitative, pandering, etc
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
The fact that Bioware put a couple of homosexual characters into ME3 that were exclusively homosexual is really cool. It seems like everyone being straight or bi is more often the case.
I'll preemptively note that no one here is saying that slapping a couple token homosexual/female/minority characters into a game and calling it a day is sufficient; Bioware here is being presented as a developer that's moving in the right direction (particularly in comparison to its peers), not one that has achieved perfection.
There are certainly good examples of female PC's in video games. Most of the Bioware games (KotOR, KotOR II, TOR, Jade Empire) have done well with female leads.
There are certainly good examples of female PC's in video games. Most of the Bioware games (KotOR, KotOR II, TOR, Jade Empire) have done well with female leads.
Look, if Dragon Age 2 isn't a game we can hold up and be like, "Ehh, close enough." Maybe we just need to burn video games to the ground and start over with Pong, Asteroids, and see if we've learned anything by the time we work our way up to being able to render characters who look like people again.
We should never be happy with "close enough" in art. We should always be pushing to make better art.
Sure sure, but I mean compared to other games of the era we're in--Bioware is producing fairly exemplary work, and it would be a big step forward if other companies did treat female characters as well as they did, even if that's not enough in the ultimate sense.
Bio Ware?!? Fucking seriously?
Bio " we don't have homosexuals in Mass Effect no those aren't females they're aliens yes we know they have breasts and look like females and title each other with female titles but they still aren't oh yeah Morrrigan isn't wearing a shirt" Ware??
Yeah, I don't think exemplary means what you think it means.
You haven't met Kelly have you?
I think there's an assumption here that sexiness is wrong. Sexiness is great. It's a great attribute in characters. When sexiness is the only attribute that's bad because it's bad writing.
People seeing the debates in threads like this, and boiling it down to "why are people trying to say sexiness is bad?" are always wrong. And it's tiresome to have it come into these threads every single time like it's a revelation instead of a patent falsehood.
This is not about these women wanting things; it's about men wanting to see them do things, and that takes something that really should be empowering -- the idea that women can own their sexuality -- and transforms it into yet another male fantasy. It takes away the actual power of the women and turns their "sexual liberation" into just another way for dudes to get off. And that is at least ten times as gross as regular cheesecake, minimum.
Here is what it looks like just before Starfire tries to initiate sex.
[image snipped]
Why is she contorting her body in that weird way? Who is she posing for, because it doesn't even seem to be Roy Harper? The answer, dear reader, is that she is posing for you. News flash: Starfire isn't being promiscuous because this comic wants to support progressive notions of gender roles. Starfire is being promiscuous so that you can look at pictures like this:
[images snipped]
If you really want to support Starfire's "liberated sexuality" like she's somehow a person with real agency, what people should really be campaigning for is more half-clothed dudes in suggestive poses to get drawn around her, since I'm sure that's what she'd like to see. But people don't really want that, do they? Because it's not about what Starfire wants. It's about what straight male readers want. And they want to see Starfire with her clothes falling off. And hey, hey -- there's nothing wrong with that specifically, but let's be honest about what's happening and who we're serving (or not serving) and at whose expense. And let's be honest about the fact that this treatment happens almost exclusively to women, which is a huge part of what makes it so problematic.
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"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
On one hand, you have Leliana, who while a bit ditsy, is actually quite strong and never really asks for your help. The Warden has to insist on helping her and convinces her to confront Marjaline. Leliana also has her own unique DLC. We have Flemeth is is also a compelling character who is an old lady in robes (until DA2). Leliana is confident in her faith, starts off in a robe, and can be romanced by either sex. Wynne also is pretty non-sexualized and really only has flirty lines with Ogrin, the filthy, stinky, short dwarf who can't stick with a women cause of his ineptitude.
That's contrantrasted by Morrigan, who is assertive and aggresive, yet when is confronted by a challenge, is helpless before it. She practically begs the Warden for help and doesn't even go along to the confrontation. She also has two different armors that show off her tits.
Leliana, Flemeth, and Wynne were a step forward and Morrigan was a step back.
Samara and Morinth were weird in contrast too. Samara is a millennium old justicar who had no hesitation to stomp on you neck and was so fucking awesome as a character. She's also pretty much the only character in the game who refused your advances. Yet she dresses like an 80's floozy with the swimsuit lines and open cleavage and heals. Morinth though, is the seductress and she dresses in a rather conservative turtle neck.
It's bizzare how Bioware keep contradicting it's stance on sexuality.
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I don't even like this. It's fucking lazy garbage. You know what gives you more of an advantage than a bodysuit? Subtlety. Charm. If you dress like your clothes were put on by a shrink wrap machine, no man in the universe will trust you. It's not an advantage in any halfway competently built universe.
The "seductress" trope is outdated, offensive, and only works on characters written to be stupid hormone slaves.
Alright, sure. My point is I don't care if an occasional character is wearing a catsuit or dressed to appeal in whatever way. I'm not saying any terrible in-universe justification works—I still remember that thread by someone in which he went through a laundry list of sexist icons and justified each with things like "it makes sense to wear a bikini on beach planet"—but that I don't even really care to argue justification beyond establishing the pattern. In talking about the broad spectrum I don't care if a character is dressed that way even if the reason is stupid and doesn't make sense for the character, so long as it's a rare thing instead of the norm that crops up everywhere reflexively because the only thought given to female character design is "what's hot to us?".
If they were fringe cases they'd still be dumb but I wouldn't care about them beyond a roll of the eyes because they wouldn't represent cultural force.
I don't want to be a dick, but you're talking about something that isn't the case, and is a common distraction when this subject comes up. It's a waste of time to rationalize why this would be ok if this were how reality was. Simple version, 90% of female characters in games (lawl percentages) are sexualized to a ridiculous degree, and no amount of justification on an individual level can account for that. We get mired down in specific cases like it really matters whether Cortana is becoming more and more sexualized and if that's ok within a narrative sense. It doesn't matter, because it's nothing but a part of a larger context. They're rightful targets within that context, whatever their personal rationalizations are.
Bioware has flirted with diversity. I don't know that they should be applauded for reaching to the lowest branches of decency, but they probably deserve recognition for being one of the few mainstream devs to even try. And isn't that a bit sad
On one hand, you have Leliana, who while a bit ditsy, is actually quite strong and never really asks for your help. The Warden has to insist on helping her and convinces her to confront Marjaline. Leliana also has her own unique DLC. We have Flemeth is is also a compelling character who is an old lady in robes (until DA2). Leliana is confident in her faith, starts off in a robe, and can be romanced by either sex. Wynne also is pretty non-sexualized and really only has flirty lines with Ogrin, the filthy, stinky, short dwarf who can't stick with a women cause of his ineptitude.
That's contrantrasted by Morrigan, who is assertive and aggresive, yet when is confronted by a challenge, is helpless before it. She practically begs the Warden for help and doesn't even go along to the confrontation. She also has two different armors that show off her tits.
Leliana, Flemeth, and Wynne were a step forward and Morrigan was a step back.
Samara and Morinth were weird in contrast too. Samara is a millennium old justicar who had no hesitation to stomp on you neck and was so fucking awesome as a character. She's also pretty much the only character in the game who refused your advances. Yet she dresses like an 80's floozy with the swimsuit lines and open cleavage and heals. Morinth though, is the seductress and she dresses in a rather conservative turtle neck.
It's bizzare how Bioware keep contradicting it's stance on sexuality.
The solution to this puzzle is that BioWare games are written by a bunch of different writers and some of the writers are good people and some of them are fucked up.
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To triple post, he isn't kidding. He has given me this monologue before.
I would love to hear it.
Hey now, have you seen a heavy set woman obliviously squeeze herself into tight spandex like a summer sausage, tapping around on seven inch high heels as though she were on a pair of stilts? If that's not the definition of dressing video game sexy, I don't know what is.
(In all seriousness though, I have seen this. It...takes courage, I'll just stick to that.)
Sure sure, but I mean compared to other games of the era we're in--Bioware is producing fairly exemplary work, and it would be a big step forward if other companies did treat female characters as well as they did, even if that's not enough in the ultimate sense.
I like being catered to, and a huge appeal of video games is fantasy/wish fulfillment. This is a business, and I think any meaningful action has to come from an acknowledgment that what gets made for the most part will be what sells. This somewhat goes to another issue I have. Clothing manufacturers have no vested interest in making your 12 year old look like a whore. For some reason (regardless of its origin), most 12 year olds, or their parents, like looking like whores, and the market provides. Yes, a lot of industry people aren't functioning at a particularly high level when it comes to dealing with human beings and their relations with one another and that makes it worse, but market forces are huge, and will continue the be the biggest factor.
I don't buy th argument that things are at a low. I think they are at a high. That doesn't mean they can't, or shouldn't get better, just that the fact that we're having this conversation at all is meaningful. That guy on the gaming gameshow that was a complete monster to the gamer who was female, that guy is not someone I want to have anything to do with. I imagine many other people feel the same way. The more incidents happen like that, the more the ugliness is drug out into the light, the more people in general will have to decide where they stand on the subject and weigh in.
I know what side I would like them to weigh in on, that people are people and gender is just another tool in the toolkit for telling stories and relationships, but there seems to be a presupposition that this will be the case. I think part of having a real discussion about this is accepting the possibility that the majority of consumers are looking for nothing but a well presented set of tits/sexual fetish/object for two reasons.
1) Acknowledging the possibility may galvanize those who would be inclined to remain silent under the assumption that, "of course most people don't think that way" to actually speak up.
2) If it turns out to be true, and the majority of consumers are sexist shits, you're going to be most affective at changing those attitudes if you start with reality and go from there. If you think it's a shitty vocal minority and it's actually a passive quiet majority, your tactics aren't going to be as effective.
I dunno. I thought femshep was great. I thought the female grey warden in the DA games was pretty great too. I tend to play female protagonists when I can, when I feel they are done well, if anything just for the novelty. Maybe that says a whole lot right there. I thought Kreia was amazing. I thought Bayonetta was pretty great too. They're all games I'd actually like my daughters to play (well, I'd prefer if the 13 year old held off a bit on Bayonetta, but that's more so that I can pretend she's still my little girl).
I look at an actress like Michelle Rodriguez, who has always refused to be the romantic interest, or the damsel in distress. And that made her typecast into the hard ass chick who always ends up dying to show how real shit has just gotten. And she knows it and she's chosen it and she owns it. I respect that, and I think my daughters could do with a worse example.
I think there's plenty of room for escapist fantasy, be it sexual, power or even architectural. But I would also like to see a lot more of what I would call normal healthy characterization: what someone referred to above as a Strong Lead (female ) as opposed to a Strong Female (lead), or whatever you want to preceed (female) with. Lets celebrate and encourage well written characters all around. Perhaps I am naive, but I think that's going to do more to bring better portrayals all around.
If there is kick ass female talent out there (and I take it as fact that there is) the companies and developers who are willing to tap into it will be at a distinct advantage advantage over those who don't. That's double the depth of talent and double the market if things are really equal. Even if they aren't, it's still an advantage, and in business, any advantage is, well, an advantage.
And ultimately, choose with your money. The market speaks and everyone listens. Those that don't cease to exist pretty quickly.
I don't even like this. It's fucking lazy garbage. You know what gives you more of an advantage than a bodysuit? Subtlety. Charm. If you dress like your clothes were put on by a shrink wrap machine, no man in the universe will trust you. It's not an advantage in any halfway competently built universe.
The "seductress" trope is outdated, offensive, and only works on characters written to be stupid hormone slaves.
Maybe in an ideal universe it would not, but we don't live in one.
Now that does sound like good reason for it not to work in a made up one. I agree with the general thrust of your point, but not the supporting argument.
I... what? What political scandal has featured anyone dressed in latex in any capacity?
I'm talking specifically about the "I seduce people to get what I want, and my primary tool for this job is to dress in shiny vacuformed outfits" trope.
Edit: Basically, if you start with sex appeal and come up with a reason for it, that's weak, and you're a hack. If you come up with a good character and it makes a bit of sense for her to be sexy, that's fine (but tread carefully).
I didn't play Other M, but I thought the biggest complaint people had was how despite being an action girl, Samus still unquestionably does what some former commander dude says, is constantly seeking his approval, and whines incessantly.
Also why is utility a consideration in a creative medium unconstrained by it, when the product can be made more enjoyable by prettifying it?
Fair point about females wearing ridiculous outfits, though I could say that's because the implication is that they only wear it for males to gawk at.
Alright, sure. My point is I don't care if an occasional character is wearing a catsuit or dressed to appeal in whatever way. I'm not saying any terrible in-universe justification works—I still remember that thread by someone in which he went through a laundry list of sexist icons and justified each with things like "it makes sense to wear a bikini on beach planet"—but that I don't even really care to argue justification beyond establishing the pattern. In talking about the broad spectrum I don't care if a character is dressed that way even if the reason is stupid and doesn't make sense for the character, so long as it's a rare thing instead of the norm that crops up everywhere reflexively because the only thought given to female character design is "what's hot to us?".
If they were fringe cases they'd still be dumb but I wouldn't care about them beyond a roll of the eyes because they wouldn't represent cultural force.
It's us as a community. Well, maybe not the Penny Arcade community, because I think people here are quite decent, but the gaming community as a whole.
Look, a lot of the people in the video gaming industry today started playing games when they were kids. They developed a passion for gaming and decided to pursue that passion to create games of their own. How many young women possibly started down that path, or are starting down that path now, and are being driven off due to the rampant misogyny by some male gamers, particularly in online games? You aren't going to get more women in the industry if they're driven off before they even start pursuing a job in it. I admittedly can't easily imagine what it's like to be a woman playing an online game, but I wouldn't want to enter into an industry where I have to hide my gender when playing online so I don't run the risk of having to put up with constant harassment, or getting requests to show off my tits, or receiving threats of sexual assault. I wouldn't want to enter into an industry where some of the consumers react to the idea of a feminist critique of games by defiling the critic's Wikipedia page, DDoSing her website, creating a game that mimics beating her up, threatening sexual assault, etc. I wouldn't want to enter an industry where a well-known name in the fighting game community basically says that sexual harassment is simply part of the culture. I wouldn't want to enter into an industry where any article about what female gamers have to put up with is met by repeated comments about a woman's looks, or jokes about being in the kitchen, or any of the other usual bullshit. Again, I can't put myself in a woman's shoes, but I can easily see someone's response to that being "fuck that, I don't want to put up with anything like that", and they never pursue it any further. The repercussions for harassment by gamers online are far too lax, IMO, and hammering down a lot harder on the silly geese who spew misogyny would probably help considerably. Behavior like that is simply never okay, and it needs to be cracked down on much harder than it currently is. At times it seems like there is progress on this front, and then at other times, seeing some of the comments from the various articles makes me think we aren't nearly as far along as we need to be.
A lot of us here have been bullied, or know someone who has been bullied. And we know that that can make life hellish. Especially if that behavior is reported and little to nothing is done about it, and the behavior continues, implicitly condoning that behavior. It seems to me that's what women who play games online are going through. And if they can just easily walk away from the harassment and never deal with gamer culture again, why wouldn't they? Men don't have to put up with that, and in many cases, a man can grow up playing games and not be harassed by others, so that passion and desire to create games never goes away. That doesn't seem to happen with women.
The gaming industry will certainly be helped by having more women. Having stronger female characters will help. I don't disagree with that at all. But the problem of sexism in gaming involves so much more than just not having enough strong female characters in games, or fear of retaliation in company settings, or female developers being confused for booth babes. Addressing those issues will certainly help, but I feel like they're part of a much larger problem. If women who play games are treated terribly by their male counterparts and are driven away due to the hostile community, you're not going to have a whole lot of them wanting to join the industry in the first place, and the change that we're talking about is not going to happen very quickly.
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From game ONE you can put in a code that puts Samus in a bathing suit, and every game thereafter is adamant about showing Samus in her undies whenever you die or beat the game quickly enough. One of the best examples we got for women as characters, and she's still objectified even before Zero Suit Samus ruined everything.
*Except by Retro. Prime, which predated the creation of the Zero suit, had a pretty realistic design which only showed her face for the highest clear, until they were mandated to use the Zero suit and corresponding Samus design for the other two games.
Presuming the entirety of the community is overtly misogynistic, it's not that difficult to enjoy games without it.
A lot of people in the industry aren't driven by a love for games, so much as the technical or creative challenges contained within it.
For example, maybe a third of the composers interviewed for Top Score, a public radio program about video game music don't seem that into it.
Bio Ware?!? Fucking seriously?
Bio " we don't have homosexuals in Mass Effect no those aren't females they're aliens yes we know they have breasts and look like females and title each other with female titles but they still aren't oh yeah Morrrigan isn't wearing a shirt" Ware??
Yeah, I don't think exemplary means what you think it means.
The Walking Dead?
Xcom??
Portal 2?
L.A. Noire??
Heavy rain???
Okami??
I wouldn't say gender figures too heavily in the majority of video games, positive negative or otherwise.
I didn't count games that just lets you play as a female character, since that's not the game saying something about women.
You haven't met Kelly have you?
I think there's an assumption here that sexiness is wrong. Sexiness is great. It's a great attribute in characters. When sexiness is the only attribute that's bad because it's bad writing.
I 100% agree with this.
The previous mentionings of Twilight are a terrible example. Despite the fact that it was written, acted, and directed by a woman, it wasn't meant to be a woman empowering story. It was meant to sell copies to teenage women in much the same way that many video games are aimed at selling copies to teenage men.
To me, a good, if non-gaming, example of female empowerment is Laura K. Hamilton's "Anita Blake" series. Her characterization of Anita Blake reminds me alot of one of my co-workers, that I consider to be a very empowered woman (she's a manager in a heavily male management environment). So, you see her not only acting in a manner of the male empowerment, but also in that of having the female touches such as her descriptions of her wardrobe and love issues.
There are certainly good examples of female PC's in video games. Most of the Bioware games (KotOR, KotOR II, TOR, Jade Empire) have done well with female leads. The best example that I can think of, though, is playing a female protagonist in Fallout 2. As one example, you had the option of playing a character of either gender in that game, who could be hetero, homo, or bisexual. It gave you the freedom to do almost anything as the protagonist.
The episode of HAWP where they compared player choices in Skyrim to those in Saints Row 3 really showed that a female player had more options in character design and freedom in SR3 than in Skyrim. Which is funny, because Skyrim is supposed to be all about an open ended world with choices, and SR3 is basically a big fart joke.
So my question for the discussion here is, "What are the traits of an empowered female?" Is it a woman who can kick ass just as well as a guy, but has good fashion sense? Is it like in many of the Hollywood stories of an older empowered woman leading her family or dealing with family conflicts? Or is it too complicated to boil down to a list of traits?
I mean, as a male, I have my view of what an empowered woman is, but I don't know if that jives up with their view.
I remember reading that the Borderlands Designers had a lot of trouble with coming up for an empowered female protagonist for Lillith. For the guys, it was easy. Take a guy, add a bunch of muscles, make him badass, done. That approach didn't work for a woman, because ultimately that kind of woman is a turn off for a woman or a man, because she can out-masculine the other males. The solution they came up with was to do a pretty, but not slutty, female character, and give her powers not related to brute strength or toughness, but due to her magical prowess (Siren). In that way, she would be appealing both genders and still be a badass.
The first step to addressing an issue like this isn't to "hire more women" or "hire more women in positions of power" or anything like that. The first step should be to ask "What do women want in a female lead?", and the second step should be how to give that to them. In the modern market, the second step really becomes "How do we give that to them, without also alienating our male audience?". Answers like "more women in the industry" are part of the second step, not the first.
Actually I think that this is the reason Twilight is more important and even worthwhile than people realize.
Because it shows that the attitude "well we never get any sales from this audience so they must not want to buy." is based mostly on the fact that you aren't pandering to that audience.
Pander to that audience, even with schlock like Twilight, and suddenly you're rich. Because no one else is bothering to pander to them.
Are you referring to a specific post? Because many posts have said repeatedly that "sexiness" is not in itself a problem.
Oh, I missed this post. Yeah, Other M is a mess all around, and Samus's sudden deferential behavior through the dumb plot is the big issue, but like I said, it's not an either/or: appearance is also a big issue, as it is with the other examples (exclusively, in some of those cases, since their actual writing is pretty good).
More enjoyable for who?
Yeah but then you'd be telling me that all of these female characters wearing ridiculous outfits, largely made by men, have an implied but never-addressed desire to be gawked at by men. Which, to rephrase, is to say that sex objects made by men "intend" to be seen like sex objects for men.
@Australopitenico
Stereotypes of and to the detriment or benefit of the dominant cultural group are not the same as Stereotypes of and to the detriment or benefit to minority or non dominant groups.
Just like insults are not the same. When we use tropes for minority groups the impact carries the weight of the culture surrounding them. We might say the same for using tropes for majority groups, but the weight of the culture towards majority groups is significantly less than those towards minority groups.
Cortana was probably on the "better" side of the spectrum* but can easily illustrate the issue. To me(a white male who grew up primarily in the 80's/90's who only played Halo 1), Cortana always looked like a "tron person" and tron people were always in these skin tight suits with electronics on them because that is what computer programs looked like. But to people who are less familiar with that aesthetic it looks like the same thing that culture has reinforced upon women.
It is important to note that it has this effect regardless of the intention of the author or creator because the effect it has is not determined by intent, but by the experiences of the audience in the culture they inhabit.
It is probably easiest to say that our culture has a general male positive outlook and so cultural ideal portrayals of women carry with them that male positive outlook. Females are discriminated against in most aspects of society though more often than not in a subconscious and systematic rather than overt way. This is to say that many males won't even realize they're discriminating or acting in a negative manner when they're doing so[even those clued into the system], but the effects are still felt regardless.
In "gaming" culture the many of the negative and overt aspects of this are particularly prominent. Cortana is just an aspect of this which is being pointed out, likely because many people will recognize Halo as compared to other titles and so the discussion cannot be brushed off as "fringe". There may also be other issues surrounding why Cortana is being pointed out, but I am unaware of them specifically.
*I say this on the understanding you don't know about the comments which indicate that AI's can wear whatever clothes they want, that just makes it really weird.
The effect is pretty obvious when you line them all up
No, the market dictates the product and the product dictates the market. This is not an unknown phenomena.
He's even got a subplot where you help him cope with losing his husband a few months ago.
I had the exact same problem! I was weirded out. I actually thought she was one of those characters deliberately designed to mimic your character's appearance, like, in Deus Ex where JC's appearance dictates Paul's appearance. Until I played my second playthrough I thought that was what she was.
I'll preemptively note that no one here is saying that slapping a couple token homosexual/female/minority characters into a game and calling it a day is sufficient; Bioware here is being presented as a developer that's moving in the right direction (particularly in comparison to its peers), not one that has achieved perfection.
People seeing the debates in threads like this, and boiling it down to "why are people trying to say sexiness is bad?" are always wrong. And it's tiresome to have it come into these threads every single time like it's a revelation instead of a patent falsehood.
This article is about comics, not video games, but the argument she presents is relevant.
On one hand, you have Leliana, who while a bit ditsy, is actually quite strong and never really asks for your help. The Warden has to insist on helping her and convinces her to confront Marjaline. Leliana also has her own unique DLC. We have Flemeth is is also a compelling character who is an old lady in robes (until DA2). Leliana is confident in her faith, starts off in a robe, and can be romanced by either sex. Wynne also is pretty non-sexualized and really only has flirty lines with Ogrin, the filthy, stinky, short dwarf who can't stick with a women cause of his ineptitude.
That's contrantrasted by Morrigan, who is assertive and aggresive, yet when is confronted by a challenge, is helpless before it. She practically begs the Warden for help and doesn't even go along to the confrontation. She also has two different armors that show off her tits.
Leliana, Flemeth, and Wynne were a step forward and Morrigan was a step back.
Samara and Morinth were weird in contrast too. Samara is a millennium old justicar who had no hesitation to stomp on you neck and was so fucking awesome as a character. She's also pretty much the only character in the game who refused your advances. Yet she dresses like an 80's floozy with the swimsuit lines and open cleavage and heals. Morinth though, is the seductress and she dresses in a rather conservative turtle neck.
It's bizzare how Bioware keep contradicting it's stance on sexuality.
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I don't want to be a dick, but you're talking about something that isn't the case, and is a common distraction when this subject comes up. It's a waste of time to rationalize why this would be ok if this were how reality was. Simple version, 90% of female characters in games (lawl percentages) are sexualized to a ridiculous degree, and no amount of justification on an individual level can account for that. We get mired down in specific cases like it really matters whether Cortana is becoming more and more sexualized and if that's ok within a narrative sense. It doesn't matter, because it's nothing but a part of a larger context. They're rightful targets within that context, whatever their personal rationalizations are.
Bioware has flirted with diversity. I don't know that they should be applauded for reaching to the lowest branches of decency, but they probably deserve recognition for being one of the few mainstream devs to even try. And isn't that a bit sad
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