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I am prey?

DrezDrez Registered User regular
So, I'm not used to being headhunted, but a coworker forwarded my name to a recruiter (asked me first) about a full time position which is similar to what I am doing now.

Right now I'm consulting. This offer is at a good company, in a location that is a better area and commute for me, and potentially better money as salary than what I am making now as a consultant with (lots of stressful) overtime.

Thing is, I really like where I am now. I like my group a LOT and I think that is important. Also, there's no guarantee I would get this job and I don't want to jeopardize my current position at all.

Am I being unethical in at least entertaining this and following up with the recruiter, potentially interviewing with this company? I mean, I guess it would be really stupid to turn down an opportunity of going FT with a better commute and more money, right? I guess that's been my goal all along. I'm just not used to being in this situation, so I'm not sure what's right or wrong here.

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  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    There's nothing unethical about switching jobs.

    If there were, companies would be giving you their left nuts to keep you at all costs. But they don't, it's a risk, and sometimes you play the game of not being competitive and someone snatches your workers.

    Nothing at all wrong with interviewing either. You're not accepting the position. The whole "I REALLY LOVE MY JOB" comes into play in negotiating salary and benefits. They basically need to be lucrative to steal you.

    Balls in your court, this is why being employed means you can be amazing in negotiating in your favor.

    saint2eAustralopitenicoKiaszagdrobzepherinPlatypus Beirut
  • AustralopitenicoAustralopitenico Registered User regular
    There is no clear cut solution to this. But in your situation I would ask myself: "Am I the kind of people who easily integrates with anyone or is it rare for me to find a group of people that I like?". Mostly because it appears that the defining factor in your decision is whether you are going to get along with the new kids or not.

    Is there any employee or person that you can talk to? Maybe you can ask for a quick tour of the place?

  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    It's not unethical to look for another job or to entertain offers for other jobs. That's how you find new jobs (unless you've been fired).
    If you quit then start looking for a new job then you've got an entirely different set of problems that I can't help with.

    Don't talk about looking for a new job around your current workplace. If you have to talk about it (IE requesting time off for interview) try to keep it quiet.
    When (if) you leave your current job for the new one, don't burn bridges. Do the whole 2 weeks (or more) notice. Help train your replacement/co-workers to do your tasks if necessary.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
    DivideByZero
  • DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    Follow up and interview. It's always good to not let interview skills get rusty and remain educated on who might value you for what.

    You don't have to take the new job, and you might want the change.

    No ethics problem, and you do yourself a disservice if you don't at least check it out.

    Kias
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited February 2013
    bowen wrote: »
    Balls in your court

    Except for their left nut ;)

    But in all seriousness, thank you. I just get...apprehensive, or maybe anxious is the better word, in a situation like this. I've really bonded with both my manager and a coworker and even though I know you have to put personal feelings aside most of the time, I feel like I'd be screwing both of them if I left.

    Not that this is an offer or anything, but me pursuing this only has one logical conclusion. Unless, of course, my current employer gives me some of their nuts as an end result. (edit: Or I am found unworthy.)

    Drez on
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    bowen
  • KillgrimageKillgrimage Registered User regular
    It is not unethical. Also, unless you are using your current employer as a reference, they won't know and it won't jeopardize your current position. I say go for it, it can't hurt (don't tell anyone at your work about it though).

  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    There is no clear cut solution to this. But in your situation I would ask myself: "Am I the kind of people who easily integrates with anyone or is it rare for me to find a group of people that I like?". Mostly because it appears that the defining factor in your decision is whether you are going to get along with the new kids or not.

    Is there any employee or person that you can talk to? Maybe you can ask for a quick tour of the place?

    I rank "adaptability" as one of my strongest qualities, so I think I'm okay in that regard. That said, my current group feels VERY comfortable - much more so than any before - and I've been comfortable in groups before.

    And I doubt that I will get a tour. But I think I interviewed there before. I'd basically be going from one huge company to another huge company, possibly bigger. That suits me fine.

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  • Dr. FrenchensteinDr. Frenchenstein Registered User regular
    yeah definitely go get interviewed. i got my job through a headhunter, i expected a lateral move with the same salary, and ended up with a raise! also, if you do get a solid offer, your current company may match or beat it!

  • DeebaserDeebaser Lead Frog Rammer Fake Board GamerRegistered User regular
    You're a contractor.
    You owe your current "employer" nothing
    Fuck 'em. Get Paid.

    HachfaceV1m
  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    Yeah, definitely go interview. Also remember that changing jobs does not mean you're no longer friends with your former coworkers.

  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    Deebaser wrote: »
    You're a contractor.
    You owe your current "employer" nothing
    Fuck 'em. Get Paid.

    Yeah, I know. It's less about the company I work with and more about the group I'm in but I know it works out to the same thing insofar as my own interests are concerned.

    schuss wrote: »
    Yeah, definitely go interview. Also remember that changing jobs does not mean you're no longer friends with your former coworkers.

    That's true. I don't want to get too specific but the timing of this could potentially screw my group over, which is why I'm hesitant, but I'm getting ahead of myself anyway. No guarantee this will work out.

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  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    To keep it rational, everyone struggles with that. Am I being a snake? Am I a bad guy for doing this? What will they think of me?

    To put it in perspective, I was a nice guy to my former boss and they still talked shit about me behind my back and blamed shit on me leaving. People are bitter asses, do whatever works for your benefit. Always, always you first.

  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Why would it be unethical? I am not seeing anything in the OP that would approach unethical. Most likely your current co-workers will be happy to see you at a better job, if they were any sort of good friends.

    You won't jeopardize your current position unless you tell your boss you are looking, but as a contractor, that's pretty much a given anyway, because no-one expects loyalty in a temporary position.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    If you were really that important to the company, they'd be paying you more, and giving you benefits.

    If they later figure out that they should have been paying you more and giving you more benefits... well, that's their fault, not yours.

    And it's generally a bad idea to try to use an offer from another company as leverage to get more money from your current company. Even if they capitulate, down the line, they'll lay you off in a heartbeat if they can.

    bowenDivideByZero
  • HeirHeir Registered User regular
    Thanatos wrote: »
    If you were really that important to the company, they'd be paying you more, and giving you benefits.

    If they later figure out that they should have been paying you more and giving you more benefits... well, that's their fault, not yours.

    And it's generally a bad idea to try to use an offer from another company as leverage to get more money from your current company. Even if they capitulate, down the line, they'll lay you off in a heartbeat if they can.

    To be fair on that last statement, it's not always true. I was being paid far less at a company a while back, was offered something much more lucrative from a new place, and my old place essentially matched it for me to stay. Now I didn't use it as leverage per se, I went in fully expecting them to just shake my hand and wish me good luck. It really depends on your company and the relationship you have with your superiors.

    In the OP's case, if he's offered a job somewhere else that pays more, but he likes where he is currently at, it doesn't hurt to ask. Just say something like "Hey I've been offered a job with another company. I love working with you guys, but the pay at this new place is x% more and at this point in my life that bump would really benefit myself and my family. I would like to stay here, as I love the company blah blah. Is there any way we can work out some kind of change in my incentive plan?"

    Again, a lot of that largely depends on the type of company he works with and the relationship he has with his superiors. I just wouldn't immediately assume they'll hold a grudge against him for wanting better pay.

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  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    Yes they do that.

    But if the company hits hard times, they'll go "well If we didn't compete on that raise, we wouldn't be having a hard time right now, and he's definitely not pulling what I think is his weight with what I'm paying. He's a good guy, I'm sure he'll find work at that business he totally was about to leave us for, so fuck him, right?"

    That's how a lot of HR/Business folk do the first round of layoffs during bad times.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    Never feel guilty about entertaining new job offers; Ever. There is no loyalty in the corporate world anymore, from either side. Always remember this: That company would lay you off in a heartbeat if it helped their bottom line. So think of looking for a new job as helping your bottom line. Provided you handle the process and possible transition of jobs professionally, you've done absolutely nothing wrong. Anyone who tries to make you feel otherwise is a goose.

    I am happily employed where I am at, but I always listen if someone wants to talk. Maybe they have this great opportunity I just can't pass up. Or maybe they don't (which is true most of the time). In either case, I would be foolish not to listen.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
    Kiaszagdrob
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited February 2013
    Heir wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    If you were really that important to the company, they'd be paying you more, and giving you benefits.

    If they later figure out that they should have been paying you more and giving you more benefits... well, that's their fault, not yours.

    And it's generally a bad idea to try to use an offer from another company as leverage to get more money from your current company. Even if they capitulate, down the line, they'll lay you off in a heartbeat if they can.

    To be fair on that last statement, it's not always true. I was being paid far less at a company a while back, was offered something much more lucrative from a new place, and my old place essentially matched it for me to stay. Now I didn't use it as leverage per se, I went in fully expecting them to just shake my hand and wish me good luck. It really depends on your company and the relationship you have with your superiors.

    In the OP's case, if he's offered a job somewhere else that pays more, but he likes where he is currently at, it doesn't hurt to ask. Just say something like "Hey I've been offered a job with another company. I love working with you guys, but the pay at this new place is x% more and at this point in my life that bump would really benefit myself and my family. I would like to stay here, as I love the company blah blah. Is there any way we can work out some kind of change in my incentive plan?"

    Again, a lot of that largely depends on the type of company he works with and the relationship he has with his superiors. I just wouldn't immediately assume they'll hold a grudge against him for wanting better pay.

    Yeah, it's not like I'd phrase it as an ultimatum. If they came to me and said "how much would it cost to keep you here?" I'd tell them and consider it, but I'm not going to play ping pong with my career.

    Drez on
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  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    Yes they do that.

    But if the company hits hard times, they'll go "well If we didn't compete on that raise, we wouldn't be having a hard time right now, and he's definitely not pulling what I think is his weight with what I'm paying. He's a good guy, I'm sure he'll find work at that business he totally was about to leave us for, so fuck him, right?"

    That's how a lot of HR/Business folk do the first round of layoffs during bad times.

    Hmm, really?

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  • HeirHeir Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    Yes they do that.

    But if the company hits hard times, they'll go "well If we didn't compete on that raise, we wouldn't be having a hard time right now, and he's definitely not pulling what I think is his weight with what I'm paying. He's a good guy, I'm sure he'll find work at that business he totally was about to leave us for, so fuck him, right?"

    That's how a lot of HR/Business folk do the first round of layoffs during bad times.

    Of course some do that, but it's not indicative of all companies. The OP probably knows better than us what the general culture is at his company, if there have been layoffs in the past that he can use to gauge the current climate, things like that.

    It's definitely a good cautionary tale if nothing else, but again, I sincerely doubt every company is like that. It also highly depends on the type of state he lives in I'm sure. At Will versus Union Shop and whatnot.

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  • kaliyamakaliyama Registered User regular
    Drez wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Yes they do that.

    But if the company hits hard times, they'll go "well If we didn't compete on that raise, we wouldn't be having a hard time right now, and he's definitely not pulling what I think is his weight with what I'm paying. He's a good guy, I'm sure he'll find work at that business he totally was about to leave us for, so fuck him, right?"

    That's how a lot of HR/Business folk do the first round of layoffs during bad times.

    Hmm, really?

    Never, ever take a counteroffer. You're better off trying to lateral back into your old company in a few years at a higher paygrade if you really want to go back.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2012/08/08/what-should-you-do-when-the-boss-begs-you-to-stay/2/

    http://www.ere.net/2012/08/09/why-you-and-your-candidates-should-never-accept-a-counteroffer/

    http://www.webco.cc/Miscellaneous Tips/Never Accept A Counteroffer.pdf


    This is an opposing view, but I think it's wrong. If you really want to stay in your current company you should seek an internal promotion. http://www.recruitingblogs.com/profiles/blogs/why-counter-offers-are-good-except-for-headhunters?id=502551:BlogPost:1466476

    fwKS7.png?1
  • HeirHeir Registered User regular
    kaliyama wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Yes they do that.

    But if the company hits hard times, they'll go "well If we didn't compete on that raise, we wouldn't be having a hard time right now, and he's definitely not pulling what I think is his weight with what I'm paying. He's a good guy, I'm sure he'll find work at that business he totally was about to leave us for, so fuck him, right?"

    That's how a lot of HR/Business folk do the first round of layoffs during bad times.

    Hmm, really?

    Never, ever take a counteroffer. You're better off trying to lateral back into your old company in a few years at a higher paygrade if you really want to go back.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2012/08/08/what-should-you-do-when-the-boss-begs-you-to-stay/2/

    http://www.ere.net/2012/08/09/why-you-and-your-candidates-should-never-accept-a-counteroffer/

    http://www.webco.cc/Miscellaneous Tips/Never Accept A Counteroffer.pdf


    This is an opposing view, but I think it's wrong. If you really want to stay in your current company you should seek an internal promotion. http://www.recruitingblogs.com/profiles/blogs/why-counter-offers-are-good-except-for-headhunters?id=502551:BlogPost:1466476

    Interesting view points. Thanks for sharing.

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  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    I know two long standing HR pros, and while the sample size is tiny and anecdotal, what Bowen described is exactly how many HR people work. When they are asked to submit a list of candidates for layoff, they always go over the list for problem people. That guy who calls in sick too much? He's on the list. The guy who everyone seems to have trouble getting along with? He's on the list. The guy who used leverage to get a raise HR really didn't think he deserved last year? He's on the list. These aren't even petty people, this is just the reality of having to make a list of people with candidacy for layoff.

    The more prickish HR people would also use personal issues and vendettas with a person, but we'll assume that Drez isn't working with that kind of HR department.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
    bowen
  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    This has also been my experience when I used leverage to get a $5/hr raise. We're talking moving from 20k to 30k at that level.

  • DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    edited February 2013
    I think some of that has to do with how flat or deep your company's org chart is. I've never dealt with HR; there's never an HR dept where I've worked, just HR duties split between admins, office managers, and owners. I always deal with the VP in charge of me or for the past couple times, the CEO directly. I've always been asked if there's a problem or if I've had an offer.

    I'm not sure if that's "using leverage of an alternate offer" or not, but every time it has come up. And either: (1) I stay cause they pay me more and I'm happy cause just want to be valued more (2) doesn't matter what they offer I'm not staying and this is just so I can see what they try to offer me (equity stake might change things, but no one's every offered).


    Edit: Caveat - I've never worked for a "large" company as it seems Drez is dealing with.

    Djeet on
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    Ouch okay thanks.

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  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited February 2013
    Thanks for the help everyone.

    I need to update my resume now with my current job. I think every time I've done this in the last five or so years I was unemployed. I usually go with past tense action words like "DESIGNED X FOR Y" or "CREATED Z" or "MAINTAINED P AND Q" or "SLAPPED D WITH H" (last one is a joke. I did do that, but didn't put it on my resume.)

    Anywho, am I supposed to use present tense for my current job? If so, that is only for projects and things that are in progress or ongoing, right? I mean if I already finished something, I should list that in past tense?

    Drez on
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  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    Just use present tense.
    RE: Screwing coworkers over - they'll understand. They'll hate you initially, and you'll have to buy some drinks, but provided your last 2 weeks are devoted to helping them in all ways possible vs. just screwing around, there won't be any long-term hard feelings. In all of the groups I've been a part of there's only a "lull" once a year (at most) or so.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    with current jobs you want to use language like "Responsible for" "reports to"

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Starting Defense Registered User regular
    You can't even evaluate if you'd like the new place better if you don't entertain the notion a bit.

    Companies aren't what they used to be and don't have a lot of loyalty toward the employee anymore - as your contractor status attests.

    Is your contract for a fixed duration? Would the new place defer your start until its end (aka the day they might tell you "good work, you're laid off" anyway)?

    "Maybe we're here to eat the sandwich." -- Joe Rogan
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    with current jobs you want to use language like "Responsible for" "reports to"

    But what about something like a project that I started and finished. Like "Automated process 7XBLQ5-MFALCON to reduce cycle time by 4 parsecs." (That's not the actual line item, but you get the idea.) Present tense doesn't make much sense as it's not something I am doing any longer.

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  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Starting Defense Registered User regular
    The way to build your resume (and your evaluations, and your raise requests) to make yourself more bulletproof vs that kind of HR thinking is to monetize it: show that you set and deliver concrete goals that change the bottom line more than your pay, and it becomes good business to keep you. Even assholes who hate you will give you raises if you make them a shitload of money. Cheesy examples:

    "I presided over a growth in customer database of 200% and a unique page view increase of 300%, which lent itself to a 150% increase in ad revenues"

    "I instituted a trial flex time program with my team that dropped lost time by 170 paid hours a quarter, saving the company approximately 24,800 annually; as manager I would apply similar policies to other teams who demonstrate the focus to benefit from this model"

    "I instituted a three-person job interview panel in the second quarter, and as a direct result, attrition in the first 180 days dropped 66%; recruitment and training costs for my department were reduced by x from last year"

    "Maybe we're here to eat the sandwich." -- Joe Rogan
    Heir
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    Well, the reality is our team now works far less overtime due to many of the things I've put in place. So I guess that is something I should highlight?

    steam_sig.png
    Tox
  • Nova_CNova_C Sniff Sniff Snorf Beyond The WallRegistered User regular
    Loyalty to your company should never take precedence over your own well being, because no company puts loyalty to their employees over the well being of the company. Loyalty is not the same as it used to be. Hardly anyone finds a place to work and stays there for their entire career.

    Especially as a contractor, which means you have only the obligations laid out by your contract.

    If you have a good relationship with your current people, but you get a better offer, you simple tell them, "I've had a great time working here and I learned a lot. I've been offered a position at another company that I think is a great opportunity for me and I've decided to take it." Then you give them adequate notice (At least two weeks, longer if you feel it's necessary, though two weeks is pretty generous as it is) and you leave on good terms.

    My blog: www.jonathanirons.net
    My Twitter: IronBorealis
    Be advised, I'm not the best at keeping either updated. >.>
    DivideByZero
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    kaliyama wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Yes they do that.

    But if the company hits hard times, they'll go "well If we didn't compete on that raise, we wouldn't be having a hard time right now, and he's definitely not pulling what I think is his weight with what I'm paying. He's a good guy, I'm sure he'll find work at that business he totally was about to leave us for, so fuck him, right?"

    That's how a lot of HR/Business folk do the first round of layoffs during bad times.

    Hmm, really?

    Never, ever take a counteroffer. You're better off trying to lateral back into your old company in a few years at a higher paygrade if you really want to go back.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2012/08/08/what-should-you-do-when-the-boss-begs-you-to-stay/2/

    http://www.ere.net/2012/08/09/why-you-and-your-candidates-should-never-accept-a-counteroffer/

    http://www.webco.cc/Miscellaneous Tips/Never Accept A Counteroffer.pdf


    This is an opposing view, but I think it's wrong. If you really want to stay in your current company you should seek an internal promotion. http://www.recruitingblogs.com/profiles/blogs/why-counter-offers-are-good-except-for-headhunters?id=502551:BlogPost:1466476

    I would like to point out that counter-offer means something specific. It's when you accept the job somewhere else (or plan to), and your company offers you more to stay.

    This is not the same thing as saying to your boss, "I was made an offer for $X at competitor. I don't plan to take it, because I like working here, but I think the market values me at that level. Combined with that knowledge and these other justifications, I'd like to ask you for a raise."

    "Well, look at this. Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What's that make us?"
    "Big Damn Heroes, Sir."
    "Ain't we just."
    Heir
  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    Drez wrote: »
    Well, the reality is our team now works far less overtime due to many of the things I've put in place. So I guess that is something I should highlight?

    YES. Making things more efficient and less overtime dependent is always a huge plus.

    Tox
  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Drez wrote: »
    So, I'm not used to being headhunted, but a coworker forwarded my name to a recruiter (asked me first) about a full time position which is similar to what I am doing now.

    Right now I'm consulting. This offer is at a good company, in a location that is a better area and commute for me, and potentially better money as salary than what I am making now as a consultant with (lots of stressful) overtime.

    Thing is, I really like where I am now. I like my group a LOT and I think that is important. Also, there's no guarantee I would get this job and I don't want to jeopardize my current position at all.

    Am I being unethical in at least entertaining this and following up with the recruiter, potentially interviewing with this company? I mean, I guess it would be really stupid to turn down an opportunity of going FT with a better commute and more money, right? I guess that's been my goal all along. I'm just not used to being in this situation, so I'm not sure what's right or wrong here.

    Upgrading from contractor to salaried is a no brainer. Your current employers are not committed to you. It is wishful thinking to commit to them. at minimum, do the interview and get an offer, then parlay that into an upgrade of your current position into a permanent salary role

  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    edited February 2013
    double post

    V1m on
    taliosfalcon
  • Giggles_FunsworthGiggles_Funsworth Paranoiac Bay Area SprawlRegistered User regular
    I think use of counteroffers depends a lot on industry. I work in a niche tech field for which there is no schooling and poaching people from company to company is kind of the norm. As a result of this I have heard that counteroffers are commonplace. I haven't tried my hand at it yet because I'm very happy where I've been for the last eight months, still relatively junior and not invaluable, and I'm working for quite possibly the only company I've come across since I started working that has an old school take care of your employees loyalty aesthetic.

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  • Jimmy KingJimmy King Registered User regular
    Just to echo everyone else, there's absolutely nothing wrong with looking at other opportunities in case they are better. If your employer thought they'd make more money by not employing you, they'd get rid of you in a heartbeat. It's nothing personal, it's business. You are employed to make as much money for them as possible and more money than you cost. You work for them to make as much money as you can (with some caveats for actually enjoying your job, etc. of course).

    If you're working for anyone that is worth working for, your direct boss won't blame you at all for taking a better job and will probably be happy for you. They're people as well, and they also work so they can pay the bills and earn money, not because it's fun.

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