It's gonna take a little while to unpack how I feel about that DLC I suppose. It doesn't help that I'm concerned it's the last Bioshock we'll see; I'm gonna miss that atmosphere.
I just spent the last couple hours talking about the game as a whole and watching video lessons on quantum mechanics and I think I have most of it figured out now, if anyone wants to rap about the latest DLC
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
The ending was... final, but I don't know if I wanted that to happen
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BrocksMulletInto the sunrise, on a jet-ski. Natch.Registered Userregular
As someone who owns both of the DLC's, and loved the final sequence of the base game, I'm not sure I want to add onto it. On the fence about playing these.
DLC story stuff. Get ready for some serious pseudoscience.
If anyone was confused like I was about what the hell a 'wave function collapse' was, I looked it up. The jist of it is that quantum objects in a superposition (many places at once) will have all of their various states collapse into a single wave when observed.
In the BioShock universe (so to speak), these different 'states' correspond directly to consciousness. You can't be dead and alive at the same time in the same universe, so Elizabeth re-entering this universe where she had died created a wave function collapse that caused all of her infinite versions (her superposition) to basically inhabit one single state. This made her a fixed point, and as such, completely normal.
As for the dead Elizabeth at the beginning of BaS 2, who was she and why did she die? She was the Elizabeth from BaS 1. She died because either:
1. She 'saw through all the doors' and knew it would happen but lead to her ultimate, personal redemption. Or,
2. She didn't care because she was in a superposition - she is everywhere. One of her versions dying is of no consequence to her.
Finally, why did she come back, knowing what would happen? She did this because she is still human. She saw a lot of her 'father' (Comstock) in her. She used a girl as a tool for manipulation and revenge and saw herself as just perpetuating the cycle, not truly fixing it. This was her final act to end this whole cycle once and for all. She could save Sally by putting certain events in motion. Even though it would mean her death, she could 'fix' what she did, and finally, truly, break the cycle laid before her.
Tasteticle on
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I am wondering what peoples opinions are Re: (DLC spoilers)
Elizabeth being responsible for Atlas knowing the trigger phrase? I admit it all just seems way too convenient, but it feels kind of necessary in the scope of the DLC, and how Elizabeths character had changed from the game proper.
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Fuckin' yikes. That really is final. I really enjoyed the ride and the focus on using more ambushes, stealth and traps was a nice change of pace. I even got to play-around with the Radar Range, which I missed last time!
Story-wise I appreciate that they tried to give much more explanation to Daisy Fitzroy's sudden turn towards chaotic evil from honorable freedom fighter and while it was a little forced and cliché I din't mind it.
I'm not sure how to take Elizabeth's change of heart about Booker, seeing as how he's still the father who sold her to pay a gambling debt who she then killed to eliminate him from the timestream. She seems to be treating him the same way she did when he was just "Mr. Dewitt" who rescued her from the tower. I kinda thought they'd established Booker was supposed to be a pretty bad guy regardless as to whether or not he had some remorse for the things he had done in the past.
Finally, I don't like that Elizabeth is dead now. I like the idea of her traveling from universe to universe as an omnipresent near-god who exists to alter the timestream along with the Luteces. To throw that all away to right the wrong she had done to one little sister really is, as Andrew Ryan put it, "like watching Sir Issac Newton perish in a house fire trying to save a cat".
But I guess they wanted to make the point that she is still human but it seemed a little abrupt. I wish they'd show some kind of cut-scene where Liz gets to become an extra-dimensional ghost like the Luteces.
Now we'll never get to imagine what other worlds with other lighthouses there are out there.
I am wondering what peoples opinions are Re: (DLC spoilers)
Elizabeth being responsible for Atlas knowing the trigger phrase? I admit it all just seems way too convenient, but it feels kind of necessary in the scope of the DLC, and how Elizabeths character had changed from the game proper.
I guess, thinking about it, part of what bothered me was it all seemed too... clean.
Like, the way it folded the entire game into being a prequel. I think part of what I enjoyed about the mythos was that there were infinite worlds with the Man/Lighthouse paradigm. And while Elizabeth had the ability to travel between those stories, it didn't necessarily mean that the first Bioshock was directly linked to the second. There were little parts yeah, where the similarities could be examined and you could go "hey, the Big Daddies are like Songbird and the Handymen! Eve!" And yet, they were very separate stories.
I liked that Burial at Sea was visiting Rapture. I also liked that it let us see Rapture before the Fall, gave us a bit more mystery, let us play as Elizabeth herself...
I think the ending itself felt too neat. I feel like it let us see too much behind the curtain; it folded Infinite too cleanly into the original Bioshock's story, especially after all the theorizing/soul-searching that Infinite itself provoked in a lot of the players. And I also think it kind of said "You know what? Elizabeth could fix all the problems of her father, but couldn't entirely fix her *own* problems." It kind of felt like she had to hand off finishing her own, personal story to the protagonist of Bioshock. It almost seems like the ending was designed to give us closure on all the mysteries of the games, since the likelihood of another Irrational-style Bioshock is pretty slim after the studio's closure.
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
One way they can go is Anna DeWitt either pulling the strings or having something happen to her as a result of the superposition collapse or something.
I think I'd have liked it better if it was the story of just *one* Elizabeth, instead of the story of every Elizabeth coalescing into one, only to get killed. You could still have the openings to theorize about other instances of Elizabeths, not have the whole multiverse presence of her ruined, and yet still have that feeling of "this is *one* Elizabeth's ending, but not all of them."
Also implying that she spent all the time killing the various Comstocks was a little disappointing, because it kind of made the ending of Infinite a bit symbolic rather than something you could theorize. It showed Infinite's hand rather than being subtle and leaving some mystery there, you know?
I think I'd have liked it better if it was the story of just *one* Elizabeth, instead of the story of every Elizabeth coalescing into one, only to get killed. You could still have the openings to theorize about other instances of Elizabeths, not have the whole multiverse presence of her ruined, and yet still have that feeling of "this is *one* Elizabeth's ending, but not all of them."
Also implying that she spent all the time killing the various Comstocks was a little disappointing, because it kind of made the ending of Infinite a bit symbolic rather than something you could theorize. It showed Infinite's hand rather than being subtle and leaving some mystery there, you know?
I think the problem with doing the one out of Infinite Elizabeths would be the inevitable question of "Then why does this matter?" If only one out of an infinite number of Elizabeths is doing this, then it lowers the impact, and removes any significance the sacrifice might have. Also, she may have spent some time killing Comstocks (the ones that treated her worse than the one we saw, at any rate), but she also was spending time in the Paris she made up.
I'm guessing this is a thing where I should probably just play it myself and see their presentation of it
But I have been reading these spoilers and even as a person who is way into BioShock Infinite's particular brand of Time Bullshit this sounds real stupid
I am... not sure how I feel about this
One question right off though: I never really understood who Sally was or why Elizabeth was chasing after this specific girl
I am... not sure how I feel about this
One question right off though: I never really understood who Sally was or why Elizabeth was chasing after this specific girl
Sally was a girl-turned-little-sister that the Rapture version of Comstock/Booker was trying to save as penance for allowing his daughter Anna's head to be lopped off in the tear that originally took Anna/Elizabeth's pinky.
Elizabeth feels bad for using Sally as bait to capture Comstock/Booker and for allowing her to fall into Fink/Atlas's hands. Fink will surely harvest her Adam if she doesn't save her. It represents her refusal to be the kind of monster her father was, using little girls as a means to an end with no regard to their well-being.
There were parts I did enjoy about the DLC though! Like, the atmosphere and art were still top-notch. The delivery by the actors in Rapture that we haven't seen since 1 were also pretty intense.
The fight with Ryan's thugs was intense and a little scary too, with the buildup. Having the player's avatar actually voice fear made it hit a bit harder. And the visuals in the scenes on things like the airplane were crazy good, too.
I think that part of what took the wind out of my sails was also that it relied on the ending of the first Bioshock to justify the actions of Elizabeth. And it was widely recognized that the ending of Bioshock was nothing compared to the moment with Ryan in the middle, where the game really should have ended. I have no emotional impact re: the actual ending of Bioshock 1, so Elizabeth dying so that moment could happen was less impactful and almost felt... wasted.
I'm still on the fence with them linking Infinite so closely with BioShock 1, but it does add a layer to B1's otherwise ho-hum ending, which I do appreciate.
There is also something poetic about Elizabeth choosing to put down Songbird in the place she knew she would die, too
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I would absolutely agree that the original Bioshock's ending does not necessarily have the emotional resonance to be a compelling emotional anchor, but I think they did a good job of making it more about Elizabeth than anything else, and I cared about Elizabeth. Part of the issue with the original Bioshock is that the most compelling character is Rapture itself, so seeing it is awesome, but tying into the story and making it interesting is a lot more difficult.
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Mx. QuillI now prefer "Myr. Quill", actually...{They/Them}Registered Userregular
edited March 2014
I kinda feel like I'd be alright with the series being put to bed after having played BaS Episode 2.
Everything's neatly wrapped up. According to Elizabeth, the BaS Comstock was the last one, so there is the chance there's a universe where Booker and Anna are together without the possibility of Columbia happening, and Elizabeth dies happy, knowing that Jack will kill Fontaine and save Sally and the other Little Sisters. I don't have much of an issue with this having been a tie-in to Bioshock 1 at all, though I do admit I would've liked some of the mystery to remain.
Also I knew what would happen once I found
Cohen's Kinetoscope
, but still jumped a bit. Dammit game.
Had fun being sneaky and reserving ammo, managed to go through the whole game without killing anyone. Peeping Tom gets very overpowered.
Bit of a Necro here, but I finally bought and played through Buried at Sea from the Steam summer sale. Maybe other people have too and are interested in discussing it.
Others had stated most of my comments. Ep 1 was too short, the atmosphere was fantastic, I really wish there was something for going non-lethal, the ending felt a little flat, etc. My big thought throughout episode 2 was that I really didn't care about Sally. Who is this girl who was kinda sorta referenced by Booker? I can kinda get why Booker wanted to save her, but I don't get why Elizabeth went to all the trouble to save one random little sister in one timeline. If she was focused on getting jack to save all the litter sisters then she could have pretty easily given Atlas the command phrase by herself.
Honestly, I think the mistake was in tying it more to Bioshock 1's bug eyed children and not to Bioshock 2's Eleanor. It wasn't as popular as the first game, but there were a lot more parallels. Eleanor is a person with a fleshed out backstory and personality who is trapped and transformed by her mother into a super powered mutated socialist saint. She is even good at disabling security systems and gets rescued by her father figure. Sally's only parallels are that Comstock looked after her for a bit and lost track of her while gambling. Lost, instead of sold, like Elizabeth was. Elizabeth showed no concern for her (though she had no reason too, little sisters are almost immortal) throughout the entire first episode. Her crisis of conscience comes out of nowhere and don't make much sense given she seems to operate with every possibility in mind.
This is all opinion, of course. I do hope they keep making these though. I love me some art deco ruins and political excess.
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3DS Friend Code: 0216-0898-6512
Switch Friend Code: SW-7437-1538-7786
I just spent the last couple hours talking about the game as a whole and watching video lessons on quantum mechanics and I think I have most of it figured out now, if anyone wants to rap about the latest DLC
Uh-oh I accidentally deleted my signature. Uh-oh!!
Steam: BrocksMullet http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197972421669/
In the BioShock universe (so to speak), these different 'states' correspond directly to consciousness. You can't be dead and alive at the same time in the same universe, so Elizabeth re-entering this universe where she had died created a wave function collapse that caused all of her infinite versions (her superposition) to basically inhabit one single state. This made her a fixed point, and as such, completely normal.
As for the dead Elizabeth at the beginning of BaS 2, who was she and why did she die? She was the Elizabeth from BaS 1. She died because either:
1. She 'saw through all the doors' and knew it would happen but lead to her ultimate, personal redemption. Or,
2. She didn't care because she was in a superposition - she is everywhere. One of her versions dying is of no consequence to her.
Finally, why did she come back, knowing what would happen? She did this because she is still human. She saw a lot of her 'father' (Comstock) in her. She used a girl as a tool for manipulation and revenge and saw herself as just perpetuating the cycle, not truly fixing it. This was her final act to end this whole cycle once and for all. She could save Sally by putting certain events in motion. Even though it would mean her death, she could 'fix' what she did, and finally, truly, break the cycle laid before her.
Uh-oh I accidentally deleted my signature. Uh-oh!!
I was just starting to get really good at the stealth and then it throws that at me! Not cool
Every time she'd start humming along I couldn't help but grin.
Uh-oh I accidentally deleted my signature. Uh-oh!!
Story-wise I appreciate that they tried to give much more explanation to Daisy Fitzroy's sudden turn towards chaotic evil from honorable freedom fighter and while it was a little forced and cliché I din't mind it.
I'm not sure how to take Elizabeth's change of heart about Booker, seeing as how he's still the father who sold her to pay a gambling debt who she then killed to eliminate him from the timestream. She seems to be treating him the same way she did when he was just "Mr. Dewitt" who rescued her from the tower. I kinda thought they'd established Booker was supposed to be a pretty bad guy regardless as to whether or not he had some remorse for the things he had done in the past.
Finally, I don't like that Elizabeth is dead now. I like the idea of her traveling from universe to universe as an omnipresent near-god who exists to alter the timestream along with the Luteces. To throw that all away to right the wrong she had done to one little sister really is, as Andrew Ryan put it, "like watching Sir Issac Newton perish in a house fire trying to save a cat".
But I guess they wanted to make the point that she is still human but it seemed a little abrupt. I wish they'd show some kind of cut-scene where Liz gets to become an extra-dimensional ghost like the Luteces.
Now we'll never get to imagine what other worlds with other lighthouses there are out there.
I guess, thinking about it, part of what bothered me was it all seemed too... clean.
Like, the way it folded the entire game into being a prequel. I think part of what I enjoyed about the mythos was that there were infinite worlds with the Man/Lighthouse paradigm. And while Elizabeth had the ability to travel between those stories, it didn't necessarily mean that the first Bioshock was directly linked to the second. There were little parts yeah, where the similarities could be examined and you could go "hey, the Big Daddies are like Songbird and the Handymen! Eve!" And yet, they were very separate stories.
I liked that Burial at Sea was visiting Rapture. I also liked that it let us see Rapture before the Fall, gave us a bit more mystery, let us play as Elizabeth herself...
I think the ending itself felt too neat. I feel like it let us see too much behind the curtain; it folded Infinite too cleanly into the original Bioshock's story, especially after all the theorizing/soul-searching that Infinite itself provoked in a lot of the players. And I also think it kind of said "You know what? Elizabeth could fix all the problems of her father, but couldn't entirely fix her *own* problems." It kind of felt like she had to hand off finishing her own, personal story to the protagonist of Bioshock. It almost seems like the ending was designed to give us closure on all the mysteries of the games, since the likelihood of another Irrational-style Bioshock is pretty slim after the studio's closure.
3DS Friend Code: 0216-0898-6512
Switch Friend Code: SW-7437-1538-7786
I think I'd have liked it better if it was the story of just *one* Elizabeth, instead of the story of every Elizabeth coalescing into one, only to get killed. You could still have the openings to theorize about other instances of Elizabeths, not have the whole multiverse presence of her ruined, and yet still have that feeling of "this is *one* Elizabeth's ending, but not all of them."
Also implying that she spent all the time killing the various Comstocks was a little disappointing, because it kind of made the ending of Infinite a bit symbolic rather than something you could theorize. It showed Infinite's hand rather than being subtle and leaving some mystery there, you know?
3DS Friend Code: 0216-0898-6512
Switch Friend Code: SW-7437-1538-7786
But I have been reading these spoilers and even as a person who is way into BioShock Infinite's particular brand of Time Bullshit this sounds real stupid
One question right off though: I never really understood who Sally was or why Elizabeth was chasing after this specific girl
I have basically the same issues as you guys though
Elizabeth feels bad for using Sally as bait to capture Comstock/Booker and for allowing her to fall into Fink/Atlas's hands. Fink will surely harvest her Adam if she doesn't save her. It represents her refusal to be the kind of monster her father was, using little girls as a means to an end with no regard to their well-being.
I still feel like it's more than worth playing and visually very appealing. That opening sequence in Paris is gorgeous!
I think that part of what took the wind out of my sails was also that it relied on the ending of the first Bioshock to justify the actions of Elizabeth. And it was widely recognized that the ending of Bioshock was nothing compared to the moment with Ryan in the middle, where the game really should have ended. I have no emotional impact re: the actual ending of Bioshock 1, so Elizabeth dying so that moment could happen was less impactful and almost felt... wasted.
3DS Friend Code: 0216-0898-6512
Switch Friend Code: SW-7437-1538-7786
There is also something poetic about Elizabeth choosing to put down Songbird in the place she knew she would die, too
Uh-oh I accidentally deleted my signature. Uh-oh!!
Also I knew what would happen once I found
Had fun being sneaky and reserving ammo, managed to go through the whole game without killing anyone. Peeping Tom gets very overpowered.
Honestly, I think the mistake was in tying it more to Bioshock 1's bug eyed children and not to Bioshock 2's Eleanor. It wasn't as popular as the first game, but there were a lot more parallels. Eleanor is a person with a fleshed out backstory and personality who is trapped and transformed by her mother into a super powered mutated socialist saint. She is even good at disabling security systems and gets rescued by her father figure. Sally's only parallels are that Comstock looked after her for a bit and lost track of her while gambling. Lost, instead of sold, like Elizabeth was. Elizabeth showed no concern for her (though she had no reason too, little sisters are almost immortal) throughout the entire first episode. Her crisis of conscience comes out of nowhere and don't make much sense given she seems to operate with every possibility in mind.
This is all opinion, of course. I do hope they keep making these though. I love me some art deco ruins and political excess.