Ah, yes - the highly sought-after "I will not give you any money for your product" customer base
I'm sure they are distraught at the loss
I'm happy to spend money on a F2P title that handles F2P right. Gating PvP behind a paywall is flat out absurd; I have a hard time believing anybody is on board with that. I did some research on their official forums just to make sure this was correct, and it is.
Hell, I complain about the exploitative practices in DoC, but Hex is going to be ten times worse.
Let's just break this down: this is a F2P title where you unlock NOTHING by playing the game. I don't think anybody has ever had the balls to do that. You get a starter pack of account locked PvP cards. You can purchase more PvP cards with cash, or win them in tournaments (which you won't win unless you've already bought cards with cash). You want to play the draft mode where you don't need to compete against people dumping hundreds of dollars into cards? Great, just $7 per tournament.
Calling your title "free-to-play" and then requiring a huge investment of cash to be able to compete is not legit. Even if you have a few hundred you don't mind spending on a game, I can't imagine what pleasure you would get out of knowing you're in the top 10% of players because you spent more money than 90% of players.
It has basically the exact same payment system as TCGs do now, and people have proven they will pay for TCGs. They have no reason to back down from a proven market.
Besides, it looks like most of their tournament focus is on drafts
Which will cost $$$, as it should. Normal duels and whatnot should be free (I don't see why not), but anyone expecting draft stuff to not cost cash is obviously new to the this ccg thing. That's the nature of the beast.
The free to play is the PvE, they've been very upfront about that. And depending on how popular that aspect is, you mighg be able to auction house rare freely earned PvE cards for PvP cards.
And they've said they'll have a PvE deck vs PvE deck format. It just won't be ranked or tournamented or anything.
Like the Warcraft TCG, they seem deathly afraid to deviate from Magic.
For fuck's sake, the demo game had several mechanics that were just ripped straight out of it. Haste but not Haste! First Strike under an alias! They even have colorless permanents called artifacts.
Going to try and clear some things up to the best of my knowledge.
You do earn cards without paying. There are two separate systems going on the MMO/PvE side, and the pure PvP side. They have different card sets (though PvP cards can be used in PvE). PvE cards are earned through playing the PvE dungeons and raids, you get them as loot, and there is an auction house where you can trade gold for them (also found in dungeons). The PvP play requires PvP cards which only come from the $2 booster packs that hold 15 cards, though it should be noted the Kickstarter rewards give you some of the packs, and if you're willing to fork over the cash early you'll get them at a considerable discount now.
There does seem to be a little overlap though, like I'm pretty sure you can play against other players in PvE, it just won't be fair or competitive. One reason being the PvE side with it's crazy equipment and champion powers is likely going to cause crazy imbalanced decks that might not be quite fair for tournament play. I think they said somewhere (no idea where, but I'm pretty sure I read it from one of the devs), that you can get some boosters from PvE quests, but it's limited.
I think the only way you are limited by not paying is that you won't have full access to every card in the game, as I believe there are 300 PvE cards, and 350 different PvP cards that you won't have access to unless you get them from boosters. That really doesn't seem like a dealbreaker to me. Granted I'm bumping up to King and I'll be having a damn booster orgy because of it, but even when the next set of cards come out, a $4 sub for 4 packs a month doesn't seem like it would be breaking the bank.
Edit: Should also point out there is a pay currency called Platinum, which I believe can be used in it's own Auction house (boosters can be traded and sold here or privately also), and I think some tournaments have a Platinum/booster fee for joining them. We know the soft sub has it's own tournament that's free if you have the sub, not really clear if there is any purely free tournament mode. They've mentioned a marathon tournament, but I don't believe they ever said what the fee would be, I think drafting requires 3 boosters plus $1 (presumably in some platinum equivalent), but you keep the cards you drafted regardless if you win or lose. I presume you can still challenge players at will without additional cost though.
Oh, oh, and just to be 100% clear, the PvE side and the PvP side are designed to be 100% separate, you don't have to grind in PvE to compete in PvP, nor are you compelled to buy boosters to win in PvE (it's possible the different cards can help build more advanced decks, but it shouldn't be required in order to win).
Like the Warcraft TCG, they seem deathly afraid to deviate from Magic.
For fuck's sake, the demo game had several mechanics that were just ripped straight out of it. Haste but not Haste! First Strike under an alias! They even have colorless permanents called artifacts.
And that's fine by me as a base. Most ccgs I try end up with a verdict as 'good, but not as good as Magic.'
Wizards of the Coast are never going to offer the structure here as they are wed to cards that work in the real world and their shitty online client that still makes mad bank anyway.
I'm all for cloning as long as it is followed by sufficient innovating and polishing that the source refuses to provide.
Become the master of your own domain! Every Lord of Entrath must defend their Keep, so we’re turning it into a game. Players will be able to set up a series of decks to defend their Keep, which will be played by our powerful AI (so you don’t need to even be online!). There will be rewards and prizes for those who are victorious in both defense and offense.
So absolutely none of the PVE cards can be used in Pvp? That seems a bit surprising that there's is zero overlap. Easier for balance I guess but still a tad surprising.
I was watching the kickstarter promo video, and the entire time I was watching it, I couldn't help but feel like I was being pandered to, or coddled like an idiot.
They rob a fake bank that they set up, and then the guy steps into an office larger than my bedroom, and starts doing all sorts of random goosery while trying to give me a sales pitch. I was being distracted by all the stupid stuff that I was ignoring his sales pitch. To top it off, his company is already quite successful with licenses to TV shows, MMOs and comics. Much like the millionaire movie stars who are trying to kickstart movies "for us", I don't feel the need to invest one red cent to get a product that they could - by all appearances - get out on to the shelves themselves.
And as I look at the money they're very clearly piling up on, it feels like anyone who's interested in the game, but doesn't want to help fund, is going to be left out in the cold by everyone else who did, earning exclusive cards and advantages right out of the gate. Once the funding is over, anyone else who sees the game on the shelf once it's out is extremely disadvantaged for a long time (in terms of the PVE content) or unless they spend buckets of ducats, which is just another way of saying "Pay to win".
I understand this is the model for CCGs, as it's almost always pay to win for tourneys, but it still leaves a sour feeling behind when they're calling their game free to play.
Oh yes, there's no doubt this Kickstarter is because they can, not because they need to. And given the money they are making, why not?
And the exclusive cards and advantages are PvE only exactly so nobody can have a greater advantage. Who cares if someone has more shit than you when it's not competitive?
Personally I think donating higher for piles of swag is a bit pointless as it is either better than the stuff you find during gameplay thus devaluing your gameplay reward, or it's not and is swiftly replaced making it a bit of a waste of cash.
With an AH available, I wonder if stuff like the CTS will be sellable. Because fuck I want one.
PvE rewards for kickstarter is a good way to have neat bonuses without unbalancing play, but I do wonder about stuff like raids. Seems like that might be a bit weird with some of these bonuses.
Either way I want it. I want it now. Is September the launch goal or the beta, anyone know?
I was watching the kickstarter promo video, and the entire time I was watching it, I couldn't help but feel like I was being pandered to, or coddled like an idiot.
They rob a fake bank that they set up, and then the guy steps into an office larger than my bedroom, and starts doing all sorts of random goosery while trying to give me a sales pitch. I was being distracted by all the stupid stuff that I was ignoring his sales pitch. To top it off, his company is already quite successful with licenses to TV shows, MMOs and comics. Much like the millionaire movie stars who are trying to kickstart movies "for us", I don't feel the need to invest one red cent to get a product that they could - by all appearances - get out on to the shelves themselves.
And as I look at the money they're very clearly piling up on, it feels like anyone who's interested in the game, but doesn't want to help fund, is going to be left out in the cold by everyone else who did, earning exclusive cards and advantages right out of the gate. Once the funding is over, anyone else who sees the game on the shelf once it's out is extremely disadvantaged for a long time (in terms of the PVE content) or unless they spend buckets of ducats, which is just another way of saying "Pay to win".
I understand this is the model for CCGs, as it's almost always pay to win for tourneys, but it still leaves a sour feeling behind when they're calling their game free to play.
Setting aside your issues with a successful company doing a Kickstarter that they could feasibly do themselves (a reasonable position) I don't get the following:
1. How can you be disadvantaged at PvE... That doesn't even seem possible (assuming vast tracks of cards aren't Kickstarter only)... Are people starting WoW now disadvantaged? Relative to what?
2. it been stated that tournament play is the typical draft setup whereby everyone pops boosters and you play based on what you get... So no cash advantage at play.
I was watching the kickstarter promo video, and the entire time I was watching it, I couldn't help but feel like I was being pandered to, or coddled like an idiot.
They rob a fake bank that they set up, and then the guy steps into an office larger than my bedroom, and starts doing all sorts of random goosery while trying to give me a sales pitch. I was being distracted by all the stupid stuff that I was ignoring his sales pitch. To top it off, his company is already quite successful with licenses to TV shows, MMOs and comics. Much like the millionaire movie stars who are trying to kickstart movies "for us", I don't feel the need to invest one red cent to get a product that they could - by all appearances - get out on to the shelves themselves.
And as I look at the money they're very clearly piling up on, it feels like anyone who's interested in the game, but doesn't want to help fund, is going to be left out in the cold by everyone else who did, earning exclusive cards and advantages right out of the gate. Once the funding is over, anyone else who sees the game on the shelf once it's out is extremely disadvantaged for a long time (in terms of the PVE content) or unless they spend buckets of ducats, which is just another way of saying "Pay to win".
I understand this is the model for CCGs, as it's almost always pay to win for tourneys, but it still leaves a sour feeling behind when they're calling their game free to play.
Setting aside your issues with a successful company doing a Kickstarter that they could feasibly do themselves (a reasonable position) I don't get the following:
1. How can you be disadvantaged at PvE... That doesn't even seem possible (assuming vast tracks of cards aren't Kickstarter only)... Are people starting WoW now disadvantaged? Relative to what?
2. it been stated that tournament play is the typical draft setup whereby everyone pops boosters and you play based on what you get... So no cash advantage at play.
The kickstarter leaves a sour taste in my mouth and I won't be donating to it. Thanks @El_Fantastico for typing out a post that speaks to the issues I was feeling.
This game has a very in-your-face pay to win feeling right out of the gate and we're not even in beta yet.
Saying the PvE rewards won't affect PvP so it's not selling power letting people start with exclusive powerful cards, perks, and hundreds of heavily discounted packs doesn't really take into account the fact that with MMOs, having a strong character and lording your shiny artifacts over your peers IS the game for many players.
They're selling power.
I'll still check it out when it launches.
*edit - Meant to give shoutout to El Fantastico, stupid quoting system.
Constrictor on
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EmberquickMaster of DungeonsDeep UndergroundRegistered Userregular
Like the Warcraft TCG, they seem deathly afraid to deviate from Magic.
For fuck's sake, the demo game had several mechanics that were just ripped straight out of it. Haste but not Haste! First Strike under an alias! They even have colorless permanents called artifacts.
And that's fine by me as a base. Most ccgs I try end up with a verdict as 'good, but not as good as Magic.'
Wizards of the Coast are never going to offer the structure here as they are wed to cards that work in the real world and their shitty online client that still makes mad bank anyway.
I'm all for cloning as long as it is followed by sufficient innovating and polishing that the source refuses to provide.
Couldn't agree more. There are plenty of other online TCGs if I want a different experience than Magic.
Quite frankly, I'm amazed that Cryptozoic beat Hasbro/WOTC to the punch on this--it has everything a MTG online game *should* have. Stats/Achievements for every individual card? Card effects that can only practically be done online (like shuffling booby trap cards into your opponent's deck or transforming into a random card you don't even own)? Socketing gems and attaching gear?
HEX is just Magic with a slightly improved resource mechanic, a shitload of gameplay innovations, and options to play it however you want--single/multi PVE, 24 hour/day hard core and casual drafting, games with just your guild members, etc.
I read through that Kickstarter and it hit me like a lightning bolt: this is the fix for almost every reason I don't play Magic any more. Can't wait!
I was watching the kickstarter promo video, and the entire time I was watching it, I couldn't help but feel like I was being pandered to, or coddled like an idiot.
They rob a fake bank that they set up, and then the guy steps into an office larger than my bedroom, and starts doing all sorts of random goosery while trying to give me a sales pitch. I was being distracted by all the stupid stuff that I was ignoring his sales pitch. To top it off, his company is already quite successful with licenses to TV shows, MMOs and comics. Much like the millionaire movie stars who are trying to kickstart movies "for us", I don't feel the need to invest one red cent to get a product that they could - by all appearances - get out on to the shelves themselves.
And as I look at the money they're very clearly piling up on, it feels like anyone who's interested in the game, but doesn't want to help fund, is going to be left out in the cold by everyone else who did, earning exclusive cards and advantages right out of the gate. Once the funding is over, anyone else who sees the game on the shelf once it's out is extremely disadvantaged for a long time (in terms of the PVE content) or unless they spend buckets of ducats, which is just another way of saying "Pay to win".
I understand this is the model for CCGs, as it's almost always pay to win for tourneys, but it still leaves a sour feeling behind when they're calling their game free to play.
Setting aside your issues with a successful company doing a Kickstarter that they could feasibly do themselves (a reasonable position) I don't get the following:
1. How can you be disadvantaged at PvE... That doesn't even seem possible (assuming vast tracks of cards aren't Kickstarter only)... Are people starting WoW now disadvantaged? Relative to what?
2. it been stated that tournament play is the typical draft setup whereby everyone pops boosters and you play based on what you get... So no cash advantage at play.
Jam Warrior and Constrictor hit it right on the head. The disadvantages in PvE are revealed if the exclusive cards are decently powerful. Much like pre-ordering collector's editions of current-gen MMOs, players usually come ahead in one way or another. Free mounts that are already maxed on speed, or powerful low-level items and gear that make the first few hours of gameplay much easier than someone who didn't buy the collector's edition. These exclusive cards will either give players a significant advantage at the start and become obsolete later (devaluing the exclusivity, and now you're sitting on cards you probably can't get rid of)
The other issue is if the cards will remain powerful throughout the game. Players who didn't pay into the upper tiers of funding will be second-rate having to settle for the in-game content. If the exclusive cards are better than in-game earned rewards, it seems pointless to go on quests, groups or raids (is there grouping? I should re-watch that video since I was so distracted the first time). In this scenario, you literally paid to win the game.
HEX is just Magic with a slightly improved resource mechanic, a shitload of gameplay innovations, and options to play it however you want--single/multi PVE, 24 hour/day hard core and casual drafting, games with just your guild members, etc.
I read through that Kickstarter and it hit me like a lightning bolt: this is the fix for almost every reason I don't play Magic any more. Can't wait!
Yeah, when people say that except for the gems, equipment, persistent stat tracking, individual cards having achievements, and tons of other stuff, this is very similar to Magic; my reaction is "eeeexcellent!"
I could never get into the whole Magic era - I had fuckall disposable income at the time, I didn't want to spend a significant chunk of that income on boosters, and most importantly, I didn't want to be exposed to the... people... that played Magic.
Now I actually have a disposable income and I can play it from the comfort of my own chair! Sign me up.
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EmberquickMaster of DungeonsDeep UndergroundRegistered Userregular
With an AH available, I wonder if stuff like the CTS will be sellable. Because fuck I want one.
PvE rewards for kickstarter is a good way to have neat bonuses without unbalancing play, but I do wonder about stuff like raids. Seems like that might be a bit weird with some of these bonuses.
Either way I want it. I want it now. Is September the launch goal or the beta, anyone know?
CTS is a "Mercenary," and CZE has already stated that people who stack reward tiers won't get multiple mercenaries (or card sleeves, or beta invites), but they will get multiples of the exclusive cards and booster packs) One of their kickstarter updates (update #11 I think) spells out what stacks and what doesn't. Since folks won't have extra CTS's to trade, and they aren't technically cards, I'm not sure how easy it will be to get after the KS is over.
The beta starts in September, and the launch is expected to be NLT Summer 2014. They aren't wiping player accounts between the beta and the launch, so all the goodies you get through Dungeons, Raids, and Tournaments will carry over.
I'm with you, Sniper--September can't come soon enough. :-)
I was watching the kickstarter promo video, and the entire time I was watching it, I couldn't help but feel like I was being pandered to, or coddled like an idiot.
They rob a fake bank that they set up, and then the guy steps into an office larger than my bedroom, and starts doing all sorts of random goosery while trying to give me a sales pitch. I was being distracted by all the stupid stuff that I was ignoring his sales pitch. To top it off, his company is already quite successful with licenses to TV shows, MMOs and comics. Much like the millionaire movie stars who are trying to kickstart movies "for us", I don't feel the need to invest one red cent to get a product that they could - by all appearances - get out on to the shelves themselves.
And as I look at the money they're very clearly piling up on, it feels like anyone who's interested in the game, but doesn't want to help fund, is going to be left out in the cold by everyone else who did, earning exclusive cards and advantages right out of the gate. Once the funding is over, anyone else who sees the game on the shelf once it's out is extremely disadvantaged for a long time (in terms of the PVE content) or unless they spend buckets of ducats, which is just another way of saying "Pay to win".
I understand this is the model for CCGs, as it's almost always pay to win for tourneys, but it still leaves a sour feeling behind when they're calling their game free to play.
Setting aside your issues with a successful company doing a Kickstarter that they could feasibly do themselves (a reasonable position) I don't get the following:
1. How can you be disadvantaged at PvE... That doesn't even seem possible (assuming vast tracks of cards aren't Kickstarter only)... Are people starting WoW now disadvantaged? Relative to what?
2. it been stated that tournament play is the typical draft setup whereby everyone pops boosters and you play based on what you get... So no cash advantage at play.
Jam Warrior and Constrictor hit it right on the head. The disadvantages in PvE are revealed if the exclusive cards are decently powerful. Much like pre-ordering collector's editions of current-gen MMOs, players usually come ahead in one way or another. Free mounts that are already maxed on speed, or powerful low-level items and gear that make the first few hours of gameplay much easier than someone who didn't buy the collector's edition. These exclusive cards will either give players a significant advantage at the start and become obsolete later (devaluing the exclusivity, and now you're sitting on cards you probably can't get rid of)
The other issue is if the cards will remain powerful throughout the game. Players who didn't pay into the upper tiers of funding will be second-rate having to settle for the in-game content. If the exclusive cards are better than in-game earned rewards, it seems pointless to go on quests, groups or raids (is there grouping? I should re-watch that video since I was so distracted the first time). In this scenario, you literally paid to win the game.
Pay to win has always seemed to me to apply to PvP where one player has an advantage over another because they paid money for something and that leads to their victory.
I really don't get this idea of Pay to win being applied to PvE. If someone else wants to pay money to beat a game why do I care? Someone could also look up how to beat a game online, where all the secrets are, and any number of other things to make the game easier for themselves, and I don't care about them either, if they want to make the game easier more power to them.
Maybe you few that are complaining about this can explain that aspect to me? I don't get why you care that other people have an advantage in PvE when it doesn't affect you. Or perhaps I'm missing how it does affect you?
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I was watching the kickstarter promo video, and the entire time I was watching it, I couldn't help but feel like I was being pandered to, or coddled like an idiot.
They rob a fake bank that they set up, and then the guy steps into an office larger than my bedroom, and starts doing all sorts of random goosery while trying to give me a sales pitch. I was being distracted by all the stupid stuff that I was ignoring his sales pitch. To top it off, his company is already quite successful with licenses to TV shows, MMOs and comics. Much like the millionaire movie stars who are trying to kickstart movies "for us", I don't feel the need to invest one red cent to get a product that they could - by all appearances - get out on to the shelves themselves.
And as I look at the money they're very clearly piling up on, it feels like anyone who's interested in the game, but doesn't want to help fund, is going to be left out in the cold by everyone else who did, earning exclusive cards and advantages right out of the gate. Once the funding is over, anyone else who sees the game on the shelf once it's out is extremely disadvantaged for a long time (in terms of the PVE content) or unless they spend buckets of ducats, which is just another way of saying "Pay to win".
I understand this is the model for CCGs, as it's almost always pay to win for tourneys, but it still leaves a sour feeling behind when they're calling their game free to play.
Setting aside your issues with a successful company doing a Kickstarter that they could feasibly do themselves (a reasonable position) I don't get the following:
1. How can you be disadvantaged at PvE... That doesn't even seem possible (assuming vast tracks of cards aren't Kickstarter only)... Are people starting WoW now disadvantaged? Relative to what?
2. it been stated that tournament play is the typical draft setup whereby everyone pops boosters and you play based on what you get... So no cash advantage at play.
Jam Warrior and Constrictor hit it right on the head. The disadvantages in PvE are revealed if the exclusive cards are decently powerful. Much like pre-ordering collector's editions of current-gen MMOs, players usually come ahead in one way or another. Free mounts that are already maxed on speed, or powerful low-level items and gear that make the first few hours of gameplay much easier than someone who didn't buy the collector's edition. These exclusive cards will either give players a significant advantage at the start and become obsolete later (devaluing the exclusivity, and now you're sitting on cards you probably can't get rid of)
The other issue is if the cards will remain powerful throughout the game. Players who didn't pay into the upper tiers of funding will be second-rate having to settle for the in-game content. If the exclusive cards are better than in-game earned rewards, it seems pointless to go on quests, groups or raids (is there grouping? I should re-watch that video since I was so distracted the first time). In this scenario, you literally paid to win the game.
Pay to win has always seemed to me to apply to PvP where one player has an advantage over another because they paid money for something and that leads to their victory.
I really don't get this idea of Pay to win being applied to PvE. If someone else wants to pay money to beat a game why do I care? Someone could also look up how to beat a game online, where all the secrets are, and any number of other things to make the game easier for themselves, and I don't care about them either, if they want to make the game easier more power to them.
Maybe you few that are complaining about this can explain that aspect to me? I don't get why you care that other people have an advantage in PvE when it doesn't affect you. Or perhaps I'm missing how it does affect you?
The only thing I'm thinking is in group play. Beating "raids" and such. Having powerful unobtainable later cards because you had 500 bucks to blow and I didn't is annoying. If that's true, at least.
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EmberquickMaster of DungeonsDeep UndergroundRegistered Userregular
HEX is just Magic with a slightly improved resource mechanic, a shitload of gameplay innovations, and options to play it however you want--single/multi PVE, 24 hour/day hard core and casual drafting, games with just your guild members, etc.
I read through that Kickstarter and it hit me like a lightning bolt: this is the fix for almost every reason I don't play Magic any more. Can't wait!
Yeah, when people say that except for the gems, equipment, persistent stat tracking, individual cards having achievements, and tons of other stuff, this is very similar to Magic; my reaction is "eeeexcellent!"
I could never get into the whole Magic era - I had fuckall disposable income at the time, I didn't want to spend a significant chunk of that income on boosters, and most importantly, I didn't want to be exposed to the... people... that played Magic.
Now I actually have a disposable income and I can play it from the comfort of my own chair! Sign me up.
Know what you mean about the people who play Magic. I met a lot of good people over the years at tournaments, but then there was also Mumbles (never made eye contact, muttered incoherently about his actions each turn), Skunky (slept in his car each night, washed in the restroom sinks, basically a convention hobo), Ragequit (concedes furiously when the slightest thing goes wrong), and so on. Not so much fun.
But I can play against folks like that in HEX and minimize the unpleasant personal interactions. And for the good folks: voice chat!
I was watching the kickstarter promo video, and the entire time I was watching it, I couldn't help but feel like I was being pandered to, or coddled like an idiot.
They rob a fake bank that they set up, and then the guy steps into an office larger than my bedroom, and starts doing all sorts of random goosery while trying to give me a sales pitch. I was being distracted by all the stupid stuff that I was ignoring his sales pitch. To top it off, his company is already quite successful with licenses to TV shows, MMOs and comics. Much like the millionaire movie stars who are trying to kickstart movies "for us", I don't feel the need to invest one red cent to get a product that they could - by all appearances - get out on to the shelves themselves.
And as I look at the money they're very clearly piling up on, it feels like anyone who's interested in the game, but doesn't want to help fund, is going to be left out in the cold by everyone else who did, earning exclusive cards and advantages right out of the gate. Once the funding is over, anyone else who sees the game on the shelf once it's out is extremely disadvantaged for a long time (in terms of the PVE content) or unless they spend buckets of ducats, which is just another way of saying "Pay to win".
I understand this is the model for CCGs, as it's almost always pay to win for tourneys, but it still leaves a sour feeling behind when they're calling their game free to play.
Kickstarter is the new marketing engine. You can build hype while still in a prototype phase, get free money, presell and lock a bunch of users in early and if your project fails like most businesses do, you arent responsible to the people who gave you money.
That said, I dont think people in pvp will have real advantages besides cheaper starting cards. I personally dont understand the appeal of the game at all, its just MTG with permanently changing cards. Which if WotC did with real cards (sharpie out one of these boxes to choose the version you want), people would set them on fire.
That said as well, 20$ for curiosity's sake isnt out of the realm for me still...
DiannaoChong on
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EmberquickMaster of DungeonsDeep UndergroundRegistered Userregular
I was watching the kickstarter promo video, and the entire time I was watching it, I couldn't help but feel like I was being pandered to, or coddled like an idiot.
They rob a fake bank that they set up, and then the guy steps into an office larger than my bedroom, and starts doing all sorts of random goosery while trying to give me a sales pitch. I was being distracted by all the stupid stuff that I was ignoring his sales pitch. To top it off, his company is already quite successful with licenses to TV shows, MMOs and comics. Much like the millionaire movie stars who are trying to kickstart movies "for us", I don't feel the need to invest one red cent to get a product that they could - by all appearances - get out on to the shelves themselves.
And as I look at the money they're very clearly piling up on, it feels like anyone who's interested in the game, but doesn't want to help fund, is going to be left out in the cold by everyone else who did, earning exclusive cards and advantages right out of the gate. Once the funding is over, anyone else who sees the game on the shelf once it's out is extremely disadvantaged for a long time (in terms of the PVE content) or unless they spend buckets of ducats, which is just another way of saying "Pay to win".
I understand this is the model for CCGs, as it's almost always pay to win for tourneys, but it still leaves a sour feeling behind when they're calling their game free to play.
Setting aside your issues with a successful company doing a Kickstarter that they could feasibly do themselves (a reasonable position) I don't get the following:
1. How can you be disadvantaged at PvE... That doesn't even seem possible (assuming vast tracks of cards aren't Kickstarter only)... Are people starting WoW now disadvantaged? Relative to what?
2. it been stated that tournament play is the typical draft setup whereby everyone pops boosters and you play based on what you get... So no cash advantage at play.
Jam Warrior and Constrictor hit it right on the head. The disadvantages in PvE are revealed if the exclusive cards are decently powerful. Much like pre-ordering collector's editions of current-gen MMOs, players usually come ahead in one way or another. Free mounts that are already maxed on speed, or powerful low-level items and gear that make the first few hours of gameplay much easier than someone who didn't buy the collector's edition. These exclusive cards will either give players a significant advantage at the start and become obsolete later (devaluing the exclusivity, and now you're sitting on cards you probably can't get rid of)
The other issue is if the cards will remain powerful throughout the game. Players who didn't pay into the upper tiers of funding will be second-rate having to settle for the in-game content. If the exclusive cards are better than in-game earned rewards, it seems pointless to go on quests, groups or raids (is there grouping? I should re-watch that video since I was so distracted the first time). In this scenario, you literally paid to win the game.
Pay to win has always seemed to me to apply to PvP where one player has an advantage over another because they paid money for something and that leads to their victory.
I really don't get this idea of Pay to win being applied to PvE. If someone else wants to pay money to beat a game why do I care? Someone could also look up how to beat a game online, where all the secrets are, and any number of other things to make the game easier for themselves, and I don't care about them either, if they want to make the game easier more power to them.
Maybe you few that are complaining about this can explain that aspect to me? I don't get why you care that other people have an advantage in PvE when it doesn't affect you. Or perhaps I'm missing how it does affect you?
The only thing I'm thinking is in group play. Beating "raids" and such. Having powerful unobtainable later cards because you had 500 bucks to blow and I didn't is annoying. If that's true, at least.
Yeah, I can see that. An early advantage could lead to a snowball effect of better loot drops that help you PVE for more loot drops. I would have no problem whatsoever with tweaking the PVE kickstarter cards after launch for balance reasons, but I'm sure some backers would get their knickers all in a twist.
From what I've seen of the Set 1 card previews, they seem on par with the Kickstarter cards. I've never played their WOW TCG . . . did they do a good job of maintaining balance in that game?
Really I don't see exclusive PvE cards being that big a deal, they don't look all that amazing or imbalanced, though they might be really useful for a particular deck (or have really cool effect like Orsen's Dream). I think when set two comes along, the options you'll have will make those exclusive cards less an issue.
Exclusive Mercs on the other hand, yeah, that could suck, probably no way to trade them, and it seems like a champion's abilities are the backbone of a deck, so never being able to get certain mercs could suck.
Still so far all the exclusive cards/mercs stop at King tier, and while $120 is a lot of money that a lot of people may not have (especially on short notice), that's not an entirely unreasonable mark, I'd be more annoyed if the $250+ tiers had exclusive stuff that rocked faces (that didn't apply to their entire group/guild).
And yeah Keep Defense sounds awesome. They also said they wanted a mode where you play as a raid boss, and player's groups can challenge you. If you win, you can level up and increase your loot rewards, eventually reaching a point where players will pay with platinum (as in real money) to fight you for your phat lewts. Though this mode isn't going to be ready at launch .
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EmberquickMaster of DungeonsDeep UndergroundRegistered Userregular
Wow, Kickstarter is up to $1,056,599 and there are still 16 days left.
When you add in the PayPal $$$ from their website, they will have reached all listed stretch goals. Wonder if they'll add more, or just be content to roll around in their massive pile of starter cash . . . .
I might actually go for the $120 tier. Hooray, shitty US exchange rate in my favor! :bz
The King is a good tier--you'd get that Spectral Lotus Garden for PVE that spits out a Spectral Lotus (TOTALLY DIFFERENT from a Black Lotus!) card every day you log in.
The lotus is destroyed when you use it, turning into a Black Tiger (TOTALLY DIFFERENT from a WOW Spectral Tiger!), but I betcha there will be a demand for the lotus cards on the auction house. Maybe not a high demand at first, but it's a constant source of in-game income.
Threw in $35 to the kickstarter... I find this all very confusing but very exciting. I don't have a clue what I'm getting myself into but I know that it looks awesome!
Junlea :: Writer, Gamer, Bagel Fan
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EmberquickMaster of DungeonsDeep UndergroundRegistered Userregular
Threw in $35 to the kickstarter... I find this all very confusing but very exciting. I don't have a clue what I'm getting myself into but I know that it looks awesome!
I know, I know . . . I've been excited about Kickstarters before (Ogre, Torment, Project Eternity, Pathfinder MMO), but this one . . . it pushed buttons for me that I didn't even know I had! It was like, "Psst--hey buddy! You like Magic, right? Well check this shit out, it's Magical Magic and it'll make you feel sooo good!"
I've *never* spent this much on a game that doesn't even really exist yet. I still think I might have gone a little crazy. I wonder if I'm going to regret it.
I'm new to trading card games and I couldn't get into duels of champions. I bought duels of planeswalkers 2013 and I look forward to 2014 as well as hearthstone and hex. I love the PVE stuff, the equipment and gems can get overpowered in a fun way. I'll try to get into PVP but I don't see myself getting that much into it. I dislike the pay to win model. There is draft mode so there is that but I would rather pay 60 bucks and from that point on have no option to buy more cards. I get cards by playing the game. Of course that business model wouldn't work with trading card games but I simply do not like F2P games with lots of options to buy power. Regardless of what I just said I'm looking forward to this game very much for the PVE stuff.
Yeah I'm looking around my room for things to ebay to see if I can get the 85 buck tier.
Gotta admit, eBaying some other games is looking really attractive right now. I get the joy of explaining to my wife why we'll be eating nothing but tomato soup for a month when this KS ends . . . .
I'm new to trading card games and I couldn't get into duels of champions. I bought duels of planeswalkers 2013 and I look forward to 2014 as well as hearthstone and hex. I love the PVE stuff, the equipment and gems can get overpowered in a fun way. I'll try to get into PVP but I don't see myself getting that much into it. I dislike the pay to win model. There is draft mode so there is that but I would rather pay 60 bucks and from that point on have no option to buy more cards. I get cards by playing the game. Of course that business model wouldn't work with trading card games but I simply do not like F2P games with lots of options to buy power. Regardless of what I just said I'm looking forward to this game very much for the PVE stuff.
Nature of the beast with any TCG/CCG, you buy/trade cards to build your ideal deck. Competition decks in other card games cost money to build and what not but that only gets you so far. No matter how many awesome cards or how synergesticly awesome of a deck you have, its useless if you can't back that up with skill/knowledge on how to play with them. A pro-level player can do quite a bit of damage with just commons I imagine.
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I'm happy to spend money on a F2P title that handles F2P right. Gating PvP behind a paywall is flat out absurd; I have a hard time believing anybody is on board with that. I did some research on their official forums just to make sure this was correct, and it is.
Hell, I complain about the exploitative practices in DoC, but Hex is going to be ten times worse.
Let's just break this down: this is a F2P title where you unlock NOTHING by playing the game. I don't think anybody has ever had the balls to do that. You get a starter pack of account locked PvP cards. You can purchase more PvP cards with cash, or win them in tournaments (which you won't win unless you've already bought cards with cash). You want to play the draft mode where you don't need to compete against people dumping hundreds of dollars into cards? Great, just $7 per tournament.
Calling your title "free-to-play" and then requiring a huge investment of cash to be able to compete is not legit. Even if you have a few hundred you don't mind spending on a game, I can't imagine what pleasure you would get out of knowing you're in the top 10% of players because you spent more money than 90% of players.
But hey, some people get off on that I guess.
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
Which will cost $$$, as it should. Normal duels and whatnot should be free (I don't see why not), but anyone expecting draft stuff to not cost cash is obviously new to the this ccg thing. That's the nature of the beast.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
And they've said they'll have a PvE deck vs PvE deck format. It just won't be ranked or tournamented or anything.
For fuck's sake, the demo game had several mechanics that were just ripped straight out of it. Haste but not Haste! First Strike under an alias! They even have colorless permanents called artifacts.
You do earn cards without paying. There are two separate systems going on the MMO/PvE side, and the pure PvP side. They have different card sets (though PvP cards can be used in PvE). PvE cards are earned through playing the PvE dungeons and raids, you get them as loot, and there is an auction house where you can trade gold for them (also found in dungeons). The PvP play requires PvP cards which only come from the $2 booster packs that hold 15 cards, though it should be noted the Kickstarter rewards give you some of the packs, and if you're willing to fork over the cash early you'll get them at a considerable discount now.
There does seem to be a little overlap though, like I'm pretty sure you can play against other players in PvE, it just won't be fair or competitive. One reason being the PvE side with it's crazy equipment and champion powers is likely going to cause crazy imbalanced decks that might not be quite fair for tournament play. I think they said somewhere (no idea where, but I'm pretty sure I read it from one of the devs), that you can get some boosters from PvE quests, but it's limited.
I think the only way you are limited by not paying is that you won't have full access to every card in the game, as I believe there are 300 PvE cards, and 350 different PvP cards that you won't have access to unless you get them from boosters. That really doesn't seem like a dealbreaker to me. Granted I'm bumping up to King and I'll be having a damn booster orgy because of it, but even when the next set of cards come out, a $4 sub for 4 packs a month doesn't seem like it would be breaking the bank.
Edit: Should also point out there is a pay currency called Platinum, which I believe can be used in it's own Auction house (boosters can be traded and sold here or privately also), and I think some tournaments have a Platinum/booster fee for joining them. We know the soft sub has it's own tournament that's free if you have the sub, not really clear if there is any purely free tournament mode. They've mentioned a marathon tournament, but I don't believe they ever said what the fee would be, I think drafting requires 3 boosters plus $1 (presumably in some platinum equivalent), but you keep the cards you drafted regardless if you win or lose. I presume you can still challenge players at will without additional cost though.
Oh, oh, and just to be 100% clear, the PvE side and the PvP side are designed to be 100% separate, you don't have to grind in PvE to compete in PvP, nor are you compelled to buy boosters to win in PvE (it's possible the different cards can help build more advanced decks, but it shouldn't be required in order to win).
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
And that's fine by me as a base. Most ccgs I try end up with a verdict as 'good, but not as good as Magic.'
Wizards of the Coast are never going to offer the structure here as they are wed to cards that work in the real world and their shitty online client that still makes mad bank anyway.
I'm all for cloning as long as it is followed by sufficient innovating and polishing that the source refuses to provide.
They rob a fake bank that they set up, and then the guy steps into an office larger than my bedroom, and starts doing all sorts of random goosery while trying to give me a sales pitch. I was being distracted by all the stupid stuff that I was ignoring his sales pitch. To top it off, his company is already quite successful with licenses to TV shows, MMOs and comics. Much like the millionaire movie stars who are trying to kickstart movies "for us", I don't feel the need to invest one red cent to get a product that they could - by all appearances - get out on to the shelves themselves.
And as I look at the money they're very clearly piling up on, it feels like anyone who's interested in the game, but doesn't want to help fund, is going to be left out in the cold by everyone else who did, earning exclusive cards and advantages right out of the gate. Once the funding is over, anyone else who sees the game on the shelf once it's out is extremely disadvantaged for a long time (in terms of the PVE content) or unless they spend buckets of ducats, which is just another way of saying "Pay to win".
I understand this is the model for CCGs, as it's almost always pay to win for tourneys, but it still leaves a sour feeling behind when they're calling their game free to play.
Steam: TheArcadeBear
And the exclusive cards and advantages are PvE only exactly so nobody can have a greater advantage. Who cares if someone has more shit than you when it's not competitive?
Personally I think donating higher for piles of swag is a bit pointless as it is either better than the stuff you find during gameplay thus devaluing your gameplay reward, or it's not and is swiftly replaced making it a bit of a waste of cash.
PvE rewards for kickstarter is a good way to have neat bonuses without unbalancing play, but I do wonder about stuff like raids. Seems like that might be a bit weird with some of these bonuses.
Either way I want it. I want it now. Is September the launch goal or the beta, anyone know?
Setting aside your issues with a successful company doing a Kickstarter that they could feasibly do themselves (a reasonable position) I don't get the following:
1. How can you be disadvantaged at PvE... That doesn't even seem possible (assuming vast tracks of cards aren't Kickstarter only)... Are people starting WoW now disadvantaged? Relative to what?
2. it been stated that tournament play is the typical draft setup whereby everyone pops boosters and you play based on what you get... So no cash advantage at play.
The kickstarter leaves a sour taste in my mouth and I won't be donating to it. Thanks @El_Fantastico for typing out a post that speaks to the issues I was feeling.
This game has a very in-your-face pay to win feeling right out of the gate and we're not even in beta yet.
Saying the PvE rewards won't affect PvP so it's not selling power letting people start with exclusive powerful cards, perks, and hundreds of heavily discounted packs doesn't really take into account the fact that with MMOs, having a strong character and lording your shiny artifacts over your peers IS the game for many players.
They're selling power.
I'll still check it out when it launches.
*edit - Meant to give shoutout to El Fantastico, stupid quoting system.
Couldn't agree more. There are plenty of other online TCGs if I want a different experience than Magic.
Quite frankly, I'm amazed that Cryptozoic beat Hasbro/WOTC to the punch on this--it has everything a MTG online game *should* have. Stats/Achievements for every individual card? Card effects that can only practically be done online (like shuffling booby trap cards into your opponent's deck or transforming into a random card you don't even own)? Socketing gems and attaching gear?
HEX is just Magic with a slightly improved resource mechanic, a shitload of gameplay innovations, and options to play it however you want--single/multi PVE, 24 hour/day hard core and casual drafting, games with just your guild members, etc.
I read through that Kickstarter and it hit me like a lightning bolt: this is the fix for almost every reason I don't play Magic any more. Can't wait!
Jam Warrior and Constrictor hit it right on the head. The disadvantages in PvE are revealed if the exclusive cards are decently powerful. Much like pre-ordering collector's editions of current-gen MMOs, players usually come ahead in one way or another. Free mounts that are already maxed on speed, or powerful low-level items and gear that make the first few hours of gameplay much easier than someone who didn't buy the collector's edition. These exclusive cards will either give players a significant advantage at the start and become obsolete later (devaluing the exclusivity, and now you're sitting on cards you probably can't get rid of)
The other issue is if the cards will remain powerful throughout the game. Players who didn't pay into the upper tiers of funding will be second-rate having to settle for the in-game content. If the exclusive cards are better than in-game earned rewards, it seems pointless to go on quests, groups or raids (is there grouping? I should re-watch that video since I was so distracted the first time). In this scenario, you literally paid to win the game.
Steam: TheArcadeBear
Yeah, when people say that except for the gems, equipment, persistent stat tracking, individual cards having achievements, and tons of other stuff, this is very similar to Magic; my reaction is "eeeexcellent!"
I could never get into the whole Magic era - I had fuckall disposable income at the time, I didn't want to spend a significant chunk of that income on boosters, and most importantly, I didn't want to be exposed to the... people... that played Magic.
Now I actually have a disposable income and I can play it from the comfort of my own chair! Sign me up.
CTS is a "Mercenary," and CZE has already stated that people who stack reward tiers won't get multiple mercenaries (or card sleeves, or beta invites), but they will get multiples of the exclusive cards and booster packs) One of their kickstarter updates (update #11 I think) spells out what stacks and what doesn't. Since folks won't have extra CTS's to trade, and they aren't technically cards, I'm not sure how easy it will be to get after the KS is over.
The beta starts in September, and the launch is expected to be NLT Summer 2014. They aren't wiping player accounts between the beta and the launch, so all the goodies you get through Dungeons, Raids, and Tournaments will carry over.
I'm with you, Sniper--September can't come soon enough. :-)
Pay to win has always seemed to me to apply to PvP where one player has an advantage over another because they paid money for something and that leads to their victory.
I really don't get this idea of Pay to win being applied to PvE. If someone else wants to pay money to beat a game why do I care? Someone could also look up how to beat a game online, where all the secrets are, and any number of other things to make the game easier for themselves, and I don't care about them either, if they want to make the game easier more power to them.
Maybe you few that are complaining about this can explain that aspect to me? I don't get why you care that other people have an advantage in PvE when it doesn't affect you. Or perhaps I'm missing how it does affect you?
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
The only thing I'm thinking is in group play. Beating "raids" and such. Having powerful unobtainable later cards because you had 500 bucks to blow and I didn't is annoying. If that's true, at least.
Know what you mean about the people who play Magic. I met a lot of good people over the years at tournaments, but then there was also Mumbles (never made eye contact, muttered incoherently about his actions each turn), Skunky (slept in his car each night, washed in the restroom sinks, basically a convention hobo), Ragequit (concedes furiously when the slightest thing goes wrong), and so on. Not so much fun.
But I can play against folks like that in HEX and minimize the unpleasant personal interactions. And for the good folks: voice chat!
Kickstarter is the new marketing engine. You can build hype while still in a prototype phase, get free money, presell and lock a bunch of users in early and if your project fails like most businesses do, you arent responsible to the people who gave you money.
That said, I dont think people in pvp will have real advantages besides cheaper starting cards. I personally dont understand the appeal of the game at all, its just MTG with permanently changing cards. Which if WotC did with real cards (sharpie out one of these boxes to choose the version you want), people would set them on fire.
That said as well, 20$ for curiosity's sake isnt out of the realm for me still...
Yeah, I can see that. An early advantage could lead to a snowball effect of better loot drops that help you PVE for more loot drops. I would have no problem whatsoever with tweaking the PVE kickstarter cards after launch for balance reasons, but I'm sure some backers would get their knickers all in a twist.
From what I've seen of the Set 1 card previews, they seem on par with the Kickstarter cards. I've never played their WOW TCG . . . did they do a good job of maintaining balance in that game?
Really I don't see exclusive PvE cards being that big a deal, they don't look all that amazing or imbalanced, though they might be really useful for a particular deck (or have really cool effect like Orsen's Dream). I think when set two comes along, the options you'll have will make those exclusive cards less an issue.
Exclusive Mercs on the other hand, yeah, that could suck, probably no way to trade them, and it seems like a champion's abilities are the backbone of a deck, so never being able to get certain mercs could suck.
Still so far all the exclusive cards/mercs stop at King tier, and while $120 is a lot of money that a lot of people may not have (especially on short notice), that's not an entirely unreasonable mark, I'd be more annoyed if the $250+ tiers had exclusive stuff that rocked faces (that didn't apply to their entire group/guild).
And yeah Keep Defense sounds awesome. They also said they wanted a mode where you play as a raid boss, and player's groups can challenge you. If you win, you can level up and increase your loot rewards, eventually reaching a point where players will pay with platinum (as in real money) to fight you for your phat lewts. Though this mode isn't going to be ready at launch
When you add in the PayPal $$$ from their website, they will have reached all listed stretch goals. Wonder if they'll add more, or just be content to roll around in their massive pile of starter cash . . . .
The King is a good tier--you'd get that Spectral Lotus Garden for PVE that spits out a Spectral Lotus (TOTALLY DIFFERENT from a Black Lotus!) card every day you log in.
The lotus is destroyed when you use it, turning into a Black Tiger (TOTALLY DIFFERENT from a WOW Spectral Tiger!), but I betcha there will be a demand for the lotus cards on the auction house. Maybe not a high demand at first, but it's a constant source of in-game income.
I know, I know . . . I've been excited about Kickstarters before (Ogre, Torment, Project Eternity, Pathfinder MMO), but this one . . . it pushed buttons for me that I didn't even know I had! It was like, "Psst--hey buddy! You like Magic, right? Well check this shit out, it's Magical Magic and it'll make you feel sooo good!"
I've *never* spent this much on a game that doesn't even really exist yet. I still think I might have gone a little crazy. I wonder if I'm going to regret it.
(But I'm betting I won't . . . .)
Steam ID: Obos Vent: Obos
Bepo and Moooof are mercenaries I would like to play!
Plus also the huge head start in terms of boosters and decks
Gotta admit, eBaying some other games is looking really attractive right now. I get the joy of explaining to my wife why we'll be eating nothing but tomato soup for a month when this KS ends . . . .
Nature of the beast with any TCG/CCG, you buy/trade cards to build your ideal deck. Competition decks in other card games cost money to build and what not but that only gets you so far. No matter how many awesome cards or how synergesticly awesome of a deck you have, its useless if you can't back that up with skill/knowledge on how to play with them. A pro-level player can do quite a bit of damage with just commons I imagine.