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[PATV] Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - Extra Credits Season 6, Ep. 11: Toxicity

24

Posts

  • scw55scw55 Registered User regular
    MOBA games are evil for this. You're one of five people on a team. You must work a team to win. But you don't get any chance to 'gel' together. You must build a social network and utilise it the best you can within 40 mins.

    So easy to get frustrated. I get frustrated when I play well (but not amazingly) and the game goes out of control. I lack the skill to 'out play' the skill level of the match. I can see reasons why the game is losing, but I don't have the power to advert it. It takes one player to be so god damn ignorant as to pass the blame to incur my wrath. I am a lovely person and player. I am helpful and compassionate. People make mistakes sometimes. Players are new at sometime.
    But having a destructive attitude to refuse to 'learn' is so annoying. I have a flip-side personality that attacks penors.

    It feels like some players come on games to get away from 'authority' (parents/teachers/partner/friend/boss). And because of that they behave appallingly. I won't stand for that. I am everyone's Dad in multiplayer game if they like it or not. I always make sure that I have the higher ground. I rarely swear. I add to ignore/mute if I see things won't turn well.

  • gyangyan Registered User new member
    Regarding investment in games, and what you take away:

    There are studies that show a measurable decrease in testosterone in animals that "lose" a confrontation.

    Games are as real to our mind and body chemistry as fighting off a lion or facing a pissed off boss. Hormones are released or blocked based on the outcomes we perceive.

    So there are very real consequences to losing (or winning). It will impact your brain chemistry and mood for days afterward. And if playing games is a lifestyle for you, it can be come a very real factor in your emotional and physical development.

  • grygusgrygus Registered User regular
    @ironzerg: I'm not disappointed, but I did expect a mention of how public discourse in general seems to be getting progressively more hostile. This was referenced humorously ("thanks Obama") but I also think it's worth explicitly acknowledging that the bad behavior in gaming is not happening in a bubble; yes, we should try to police ourselves, but it's not just gamers acting this way. Investment in games isn't the root problem.

  • RequiemsvoidRequiemsvoid Registered User regular
    I'll save my comments on the topic for later, for now.. I'm curious about your thoughts on Lyte's "Fixing Toxic Players" presentation done at GDC this year.

    Were you surprised at any of his teams findings or the methods used to test different outcomes? Is there any area you think they're over looking or could use some improvements?

    **Just in case you haven't seen it, you can find the vid here on Gamasutra:
    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/191262/Video_Fixing_toxic_online_behavior_in_League_of_Legends.php

  • Sir_OssisSir_Ossis Registered User new member
    edited May 2013
    Self-awareness is only useful given a particular competence threshold. For those interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect.

    To boil it down/ rephrase it as I think of it:

    There is a general competency requirement for a person to actually judge his own 'goodness/badness/skill/competence/et al' in a particular endeavor. More specifically, this is in regards to 'why' you are good/bad/etc; you cannot know you have bad positioning in LoL until you understand what the concept of positioning is. This carries over to most any game, and is one of my current complaints about folk who just watch streams or podcasts of a game rather than playing it and improving their skills.

    So it becomes impossible to have any discussion with a person who is performing poorly as their actual competence decreases. This video hits upon this shortly, citing how 'good' players tend not to blame others, as they know themselves as 'good,' know what they did wrong, and understand what went wrong for them to lose. 'Bad' players lack this understanding.

    So, does it then fall upon the designer to telegraph the performance of a player to that player as bluntly as possible? Is such a conveyance practical? What is the relation between a person's competency development and the 'depth/complexity' of a game? Ideas only ever spark more questions...

    Sir_Ossis on
  • ianmac93ianmac93 Registered User new member
    I feel like most of this just comes down to being a mature person. I would say younger gamers are more prone to this behavior, not exclusively but still prone. I think it may come with the territory of gaming. While the medium is getting more mature there are still those fantastic games that are approachable for all ages which means you are going to get the younger crowd which is more prone to this. I would love to see if this type of behavior is linked to age (considering that this entire post is based on it) but I really think that young kids act like this more and I'm not even sure we can ask them to not. Controlling yourself is a life long lesson and challenge, one that might be a bit unfair to ask a 12 year old of doing, at least to this extreme. However, this may be a perfect place for them, kids, to start to learn said self control. Who knows but I really think age has a lot to do with it.

  • SiddownSiddown Registered User regular
    @Sir_Ossis.

    The Dunning-Kruger Effect is one of those things that once you learn about it, it gives you a whole new perspective on life. You see it everywhere.

  • peoswriterpeoswriter Registered User new member
    There are a lot of argument defending trash talk, but most seem to boil down to this:
    1 - It's a strategy that works
    2 - Nobody's hurt if it doesn't go too far
    3 - It's part of the game (deal with it or get out)

    Here's my condensed counter-arguments:
    1 - If your strategy works by ruining the fun for other players, the gaming community is better off without you
    2 - You don't get to decide what hurts other people -- they do. Why tread the line? If you don't care if people get hurt for your amusement, you need to be honest with yourself about the implications of that.
    3 - It might be part of YOUR game, but others showed up to play a RTS, FPS, etc, not to take part in your social experiment. If toxicity chases off players (and it does) then it's bad for gaming commuinty at large.

    Go ahead and trash talk with you like-minded friends who have decided they're fine with it or even enjoy it, but that doesn't make it okay everywhere with everyone.

  • ArekExcelsiorArekExcelsior Registered User regular
    The EC guys are just empirically wrong about the best players. The best people in all sports, from Muhammad Ali to Filipino Champ, often trash talk. It's true in the fighting game community, competitive Starcraft, competitive LoL and DotA 2. It can even lead to famous moments for audience participation. Heck, there's a whole set of special lingo for trash talking: "Salty" and so forth in fighting game communities. I don't think one should trash talk when playing with friends, but trash talking is a strategy that is used universally. Even when it can't be used in play, like in tennis or golf where you're supposed to be quiet or in LoL or DotA where players can't see each the other team, it will be used out of play to get into their heads. The best players can go through it. Saying "You shouldn't need to trash talk" is like saying "You shouldn't need to deny" or "You shouldn't need to orb walk" or "You shouldn't need to false roman cancel". It's a tool in your arsenal.

  • Snake915Snake915 Registered User new member
    @The_Ulf

    Even though there is some truth in what you are saying at the end of the day there will never be a game without mechanics that either the more skilled or the less skilled players are going to hate. Games will always try to include ways to have new inexperienced players have some way to put up a semblance of a fight vs more skilled players. This is specially true of FPSs. Do to much of this and skilled players will complain its cheap or OP, do to little and the new or low skilled players will become frustrated with the game and claim its to hard to learn. There is no perfect balance to satisfy everyone.

  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    fallace wrote: »
    The games we play within the game we are playing can be just as engaging as the game itself.

    Video games are essentially mind games, but in most cases focused solely on technical skill, puzzle solving and getting your other pinata friends to throw a party. However, online games allow for players to engage, or be forced to engage, in social mind games.

    Trash Talk, more often then not, is the most engaging byproduct of social interaction. Unless it's just a forum of people talking about how awesome my Dragenache pinata is - that is probably the most engaging.

    Fighting usually happens within a person's lifetime and trash talk is not any different, aside from being only verbal and usually without a visual of the other player(s). Like any game understanding your opponent is critical, but for social gaming understanding yourself can be even more critical. Trash talkers will always try to bring the worst out of you - the game essentially being to get the other person pissed. It is akin to trolling in many cases.

    Most players, especially after a "shitty" game are likely to be lured into the trash talker's trolling.(also alliteration = awesome) Which of course only fuels the fire and generally brings enjoyment to the trash talker, because at that point they have basically won. 'Getting back' at your imposed opponent can be a difficult challenge for those who are not so quick witted, but this does not mean you will lose. Beginners tend to not see this as a challenge and will resort to kicking and flailing, but advanced players understand (even if not viewed as a game) that the only clear way to win is to bring the troller down with quick witted comments, absurdity, thoughts on the opponent's mother or reminding them that they are both homosexual and homophobic.
    Dude, trash talking based on sexual orientation - perceived or otherwise - is Not Okay.
    fallace wrote: »
    The only way to overcome trash talk is to control your own rage and do some counter trolling.
    What? No.
    fallace wrote: »
    "But fallace, I like to troll." Yes, we all do. It is a lot of fun! But there is a difference between good old fashioned trolling and just being a huge piece of shit. For example, bringing up legitimate inside information on a opponent's dead family member - not okay, but bringing up the fact that it must be hard for them to play with their controller stuck so far up their vagina - acceptable. Extruding emotions out of players in online gaming can be great fun, but like anything moderation should be observed.
    No. No it is not. This is trash talking based on gender, and it is also Not Okay.
    fallace wrote: »
    The great thing about online gaming is that it is one of the only places where trash talking will not lead you to getting your ass kicked, but if you live your life like you do in your trash talk then you are truly a piece of shit and should rethink your position before someone bigger comes along and rethinks your face for you.
    Why do you think it's ok to say awful things to people online, but not in other venues? Do you believe the only reason not to be a jerk is to avoid punishment?
    fallace wrote: »
    I think the options to avoid trash talk are pretty obvious, for those who just can't take it - scream deafeningly into the mic drowning out all other chatter until you feel comfortable with your victory or pass out from asphyxiation.
    This last comment makes me wonder if your whole post was sarcasm. If so, good job. If not, you've got some learning to do.

  • TarrkerTarrker PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    I somewhat disagree with the trash talking thing. I think a good, friendly ribbing makes any game better and can even break the ice between people sometimes. There is a definite line you shouldn't cross with it, though and I admit that line is hard to see.

    All in all this was very uplifting though. I think this episode should be required viewing for League of Legends players or, really, anyone who intends to get into a multiplayer, team-based game.

  • AlexwrichardAlexwrichard Registered User regular
    Why does anyone care about this? Just ignore it. Is anyone really offended by some random asshole talking shit in a game? Mute'em or get thicker skin.

  • noxterynnoxteryn GreeceRegistered User new member
    I never understood people who claim it's part of the fun to scream insults to your teammates or opponents.

  • charrsezrawrcharrsezrawr Registered User new member
    I respect and love this show very much. It does pain me however, that every time this segment comes up you neglect to mention a group of players that contribute just as much vitriol and problems to the gaming community as people that loudly and verbally express frustration. In fact...the latter group exists partly because of the former. I'm talking about players unwilling to learn. The ones who show apathy towards the goals of the game and their teammate. The ones that skip tutorials and go straight for ranked queue in competitive games. The ones who, when confronted with well-meaning advice respond with "QQ" or "its just a game" or "I don't care". Now granted this isn't a problem in non-competitive games, but in competitive ones it just leads to the community hating one another. These people have a much larger effect on me than people who are simply new to the game and say "my bad, sorry" when they make a mistake and show willingness to improve. That and trolls. We need to get rid of the trolls.

  • GodlessCommieGodlessCommie Registered User new member
    I'll be the first to admit that MOBAs are pretty bad about this, simply by their team competitive nature. I know for a fact that the small, vocal minority isn't nearly as toxic as the reasonably skilled players that let their frustration get the better of them. After going 15/2/12 with Cait, it WAS painful to watch Singed lose the match for us, and even more painful that in his frustration, he start picking apart the Jungler's performance. It's not that either of them were individually bad players, even I'm guilty of this. It's easy to say your Annie is terrible because they didn't kill your taunted foe, but objectively, it was your bad timing that placed the enemy too far away to hit. Just check yourself before you rage, and consider whether it's even going to do any good. On the reverse, when you're 12/1/39 Sona, try not to feed into that inner monster and talk down to the 0/7/8 Udyr. It may be satisfying to your ego, but it's just making the game less fun all around.

  • A TravelerA Traveler Registered User new member
    I know this is serious but, "all the live-long day" made me chuckle. Gotta enjoy the little things.

  • XanKortalXanKortal Registered User new member
    Funny how my solution hasn't been mentioned in full, but I'm going to reference the closest one so far
    /quote
    I came to the following realization a few months ago about why you should ALWAYS compliment your opponents and speak highly of them.

    If you trash talk someone, and beat them, you don't have an honorable victory, because you're basically beating up a small child.
    If you trash talk someone, and lose to them, you're clearly an absolutely horrible player because you just lost the the player who is, in your words, a "F***ing n00b who can't shoot for s**t."

    If you compliment your opponent and beat them, then you've honorably triumphed over a worthy foe! This is the best thing ever!
    If you compliment your opponent and lose to them, then it doesn't hurt so badly: They played well, fought well, and the best man won. There's no shame in that.
    /endquote

    What I do is actually do a combination of this and it's direct opposite: I trash talk myself openly in chat. I use self deprecating humor to diffuse the more tense inter-team fights AND to completely nullify any negative trash talk from my opponents.

  • RologtonRologton Registered User regular
    2 jokes:

    1: I like to yell "Thanks Obama!" when I'm doing poorly as Soldier in TF2.

    2: You would have done better if you weren't the Jaguars.

  • Redskull87Redskull87 Gamer TucumanRegistered User regular
    i am a example of a good gamer, because...i dont play too well. Really, i love to play quake and deatmatch type of games, or Co-op games, but being serious, i suck a little in this game(normally i need a warming up to get better in this games). So i play and get really and authentic fun even if i lose really, i really have a good time, and enjoy my suckness, of diying(and killing in "kamikaze"-i love to play suicidal, you dont know how i enjoy BOMB MYSELF and get kills :D-). And....never take this games too seriously(yes i take seriously when i am playing them, but not too seriously to enter in rage every time i or my equip lose. Really i go for the experience not the "win" badge. And for some record, i dont have a problem with some cursing when that is not target nobody(like saying shit, DAMN, FUCK, and that things in the air..)

  • masterxodinmasterxodin Registered User regular
    I'm absolutely terrible at FPS and RTS games and the best thing I think I've ever done regarding this fact is take the initiative to be honest and upfront about this with the friends that I game with. I don't stop playing these games. I still find these games to be fun and enjoyable. From the get go however I know my regular gaming buddies aren't holding me to a standard that I know I won't be able to meet, and in some regards that's helped everyone in my gaming groups find ways to play more enjoyably. They're more sensitive to my self-consciousness when playing those types of games, and if friends are worth their salt, they won't make you feel bad for not having the same level of skill as they do at a particular type of game.

    Being honest with myself and with my friends about the games I don't do well at has, in my experience, not been the ego crushing anxiety filled fear that I think a lot of players occasionally suffer from when trying to figure out how to cope with failure to perform at a given level.

  • MerlynnMerlynn Registered User regular
    Ok,here's the thing. Team based games have,in recent years,pushed more and more to force players to rely on their team mates. Take Unreal Tournament 1. In that game,I could lay waste to an enemy team all by myself. Because the game was balanced to allow individual achievement. Players weren't limited. In UT2003/4,they changed the weapon balance. Weapons were massively nerfed across the board. The idea being that with weaker weapons,players would have to work together to get anything done.

    This kind of thinking has dominated recent multiplayer games. The question "but how does this guy fit into the team play mechanic?" comes up. Whole classes are rebalanced solely on how they work with their teammates. Characters who are OP are nerfed so they *can't* dominate an enemy team by themselves,no matter how good the player is. Unless you're the Soldier,Demoman,and Scout in TF2. They get buffs. And then whine when they get their asses kicked cause they played stupid and assume their OP class is somehow messed up as opposed to simply realizing that charging straight at a Heavy never works out for them. Once that truth is realized,destroying Heavies is simple and easy.

    But the underlying truth is,when you FORCE players to rely on each other. When you MAKE them have to work as a team. And someone on the team doesn't do his job? The whole damn team can fail because of ONE guy. And if your whole team is a bunch of cockmongling dipshits. Well,then it doesn't matter how good you are,you're still going to end up as one Engy fighting 2 soldiers,a demoman,and 2 medics with ubers charged. And you AREN'T winning that fight for long.

    Does that "work as a team" angle need to go away? No. But it needs to be ratcheted back. In UT1,a team with average skill who work well together will beat a team of lone wolves of superior skill because the lone wolves will get overwhelmed. But if a lone wolf manages to out think the team,he can still pull out a victory due to his superior skill.

    So in the end,yes,designers have a LOT of sway over how much teams blame each other for losses. When it's an end game WoW raid that takes hours to complete,even the whole day? There's going to be a LOT of hurt feelings and rage if it fails. When it's a game like LoL or DOTA2 where you HAVE to rely on your team,at least at the start,and you can know if you're going to win or lose based on how the first 5 levels of the game go? It can be slow torture as your situation becomes more and more hopeless. And when you're trying your best to keep your intel safe,but your Pyro won't spy hunt and your Medic won't support your Heavy cause he's too busy healing a Scout standing in the spawn room,constantly taunting and your Sniper's getting blow up as Soldiers and Demomen swarm your battlements? Yeah. You can't do anything BUT blame your team.

    As for trash talk? Hell,trash talk is part of any sport. Deal with it. It's part of the fun. You can't tell me that picking off the loud mouth cock weasel with a sniper rifle as he was talking about how you can't aim isn't way more satisfying than just picking a head shot off a random guy. And lets face it. As the action gets intense,things just get said. Should a player get banned because he got upset at YOUR shit physics system? Should he not be angry that all his skill is completely negated because you won't fix the net code? I know when you guys are making these games,you have this high minded ideal that "those are just little details". Those little details add up. So really,how "toxic" a game is can be a major fault of the dev team not doing their jobs. It can mean the difference between a happy,healthy community and a group of shit lords who sit on your game just to troll new players. There's a REASON Halo players and COD players are mostly raging 13-year-olds. Think about it,won't you?

  • coyote_bluecoyote_blue Registered User regular
    @Merlynn: first, I gotta respect your desire to have fun playing games through individual achievement. That's your right.

    Second: I just plain would not play an online game with you if I knew you were more skilled than me. It's not fun getting whupped by a stranger, and it's even less fun to be the new guy in a team where a) the new guy can get the team killed and b) people like you are going to get angry with me. Why make you mad if I'm not even going to have fun?

    So that presents a design challenge: how can a dev make a game that I will buy and play without making you angry? And it presents a player challenge: can you find some way to enjoy a game by helping new guys get better, without resenting their failure?

  • T.KT.K Registered User new member
    I find there is one exception to the "No trash talk" rule that should be enforced.

    When playing with and against friends (and only friends, no strangers) and everyone in the group is comfortable enough with each other, some trash talk can make a good experience better because the trash talk turns into jokes. Take Mario Party 2 for example. people often say it wrecked their friendships when in my experience it made mt friendships better because we could make wise cracks at how each of us was terrible at one minigame or another. I enjoy friendly banter, but this can often feel like real insulting stuff if you aren't comfortable with the other players.

  • onizeroonizero Registered User new member
    With Respect.... Your response to toxic team members is to find a scapegoat?

    That seams to me like supporting, if not reinforcing, the mechanisms that cause this behavior in the first place. The problem is that in many toxicity cases the offender is not subconsciously venting frustration, but is intentionally bullying, trolling, or griefing with malice.

    IIRC Extra credit did an episode on griefing a while back. I would like to know your thoughts on determining the difference between a griefer and someone who is venting frustration. It might be interesting to explore how treating one for the other might have the opposite of the desired effect.

    When confronted with a toxic attitude in gaming, I find that the same methods that work in real life, work in the game.

    step 1: politely and privately, make the offender aware of their toxic attitude. Ask about what is frustrating her, and support her positive ideas for overcoming the frustration. If you can, get the other team members to acknowledged the offenders frustrations and work together to overcome them. worst case ask privately if she wants to take a break until she has calmed down. This resolves most frustration moments.

    step 2: If the offender is not interested in overcoming the frustrations. Make her aware that it is not okay to act out like this. Do it publicly so that everyone knows that she knows it, and she knows everyone knows, etc. Often this defuses trolls because it lets all the other team members know that they should not respond to the trolling. Ignore and mute her!

    step 3: If the offender lashes out, using the games mechanics to interrupt the game's fun. there is really only a few things you can do. If you can, a kick/ban/shrug works well. You can also just leave. If it is coordinated it sends a strong message. a bully want attention and power, by leaving her alone you are giving her neither. you can always find another server or game to play in the mean time.

    alternative step 3: If the team is behind you, you can often engage the offender and win. this is tricky because you risk giving her the attention she wants, or get dragged down into the toxicity yourself. If you keep a cool head, and you have support from your fellow players, you can make an impact. perhaps causing her to recognize her error, or leave at her own will. this MUST be done publicly, so tact and savvy are required. just remember "lose your temper, lose the argument".

    thanks again for all the great work from Extra Credit.
    Keep it up!

  • TweegTweeg Registered User regular
    The problem of toxicity seems to mainly brought up by American gamers.

    When did American gamers become so sentience.

    Trash Talking can be part of the game because in all honestly, it can't effect anyone without their permission.

    A wise woman once said "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent" ~Eleanor Roosevelt.

    Its easy to say that people who trash talk only do it because they can't win without it, just as easily to say that people who dislike trash talk mainly because they don't have a very good sense of humour or wit.

    Turning a phrase, one upping someone verbally can be just as satisfying as scoring a head shot.

    If we can view things objectively and say things like "Its only a game", why can't we use the old adage of "Sticks and Stones"

    For gaming to grow its time for gamers to grow up and not go through life like a exposed nerve.

  • KosModeKosMode Registered User new member
    Considering the past 2 weeks in the Starcraft Community with "Idra" this is a very interesting topic. For anyone who doesn't follow it one of the most best teams released a player who has one of the largest followings in all of e-sports. Idra has had a major history of being incredibly rude and terrible to his opponents. he recently said, on stream, that he hoped someone would get cancer, or saying the head of the balance team should be "raped with a tire iron". Overall he was incredibly BM all the time.

    Now there have been people on both sides who have said this was a good and bad decision on the part of EG. and i am very conflicted on this. For one thing looking back at the competitive gaming episode of this show, they talked about needing people to route for and against as people, and Idra represented on of the ultimate villains who would drive viewership up whenever he did well. this increase in viewership should be good for the growth of SC2. On the other hand it represents a huge black mark on a lot of things that makes the community look unprofessional.

  • TaznakTaznak Registered User regular
    4:40 to 5:06 is so, so true. I'm pretty good at this, and it unnerves me to no end when friends of mine instead try to refute and argue other people into a corner when it's completely evident that it's their tempers and pride talking.

    Great episode, guys :)

  • Sonny_69Sonny_69 Registered User regular
    yeah, lots of communities suck. lol.

  • FnorosFnoros Registered User regular
    I think we need to be careful to respect freedom of speech. Just because someone says things you don't want to hear is hardly any reason to censor them. That said, most competitive games are played online, where an admin or something has ownership of the server, or where the developers are providing a service with ToS or a EULA, or in a setting controlled by a private organization, and in those cases, certain people do have a right to restrict behavior. But personally, I would rather people not tell me what to do.

  • BarnesmBarnesm Registered User regular
    I smiled when the sad game graphic came up, does that make me a bad person?

  • FredownsyouFredownsyou Registered User new member
    edited May 2013
    In my experience it isn't always the failing players who try to point blame in team games. Though in a sense it could be true that they are 'failing' because they only point blame when their ego is cashing checks their ability can't keep up with. Lots of 'good' players tend to point blame on their teammates because they have an overblown sense of self and if they aren't doing as well as they think they should be it is 'obviously' because their teammates are holding them back.

    Both trash talk and blame really have a root in a singular point. That would be a low self esteem that is in constant need of reassurance. People who trash talk don't do it for their team or for their opponent, they do it for themselves. It makes them feel better because otherwise they couldn't cope with how they feel about themselves. Just like how bullies act they way they do because of the false sense of superiority over someone weaker then themselves make them feel better about themselves. If you even change your view point you can even see that trash talk, in a sense, is a form of insulting your own team by insulting your opponent. You're not winning because your teammate made a good play, you're doing so because person X sucks. Your team isn't coordinated and responding well to the game, it's only because person Y was feeding.

    I follow a very simple rule whenever I delve into games. If I'm losing I blame the other team. If I'm winning I blame my team. If we're losing I like to see it as the other team was just better, more coordinated, or more skilled than my own. Individually we may match up and I may even be better, but individual skill means little against coordinated teamwork and purpose. If we're winning I played as well as I always do, but my team did great to bring it to the next level. The triumph is not my own, but the fruit of our coordinated effort.

    "Oh trash talk is freedom of speech and I don't need someone to tell me to give it up" Yeah...call up your mother and call her a slut. Walk up to your boss and call them a lazy retarded waste of space. You'll find your 'freedom of speech' doesn't protect you very far when you infringe on someone else's personal dignity. The better rule of thumb is not to respect 'freedom of speech', but just to respect people. After all what EC said is true that the REALLY skilled people don't need to boost about it. They let their actions speak volumes and the silent player who rips apart your entire team leaving you speechless in awe without saying a word is worth more respect and fear than the person screaming about how awesome they are and how everyone else sucks. Why? Because the screaming child is probably screaming because they did something that surprised even them. The silent player is just playing as normal and it start to feel like it is common for them to rip you a new one before you can blink.

    Fredownsyou on
  • GezzerGezzer Registered User regular
    I'm not sure but I think there's a reason, I'd even suggest the major reason for toxicity that wasn't mentioned.
    Hubris.
    Some people just feel they're totally superior to everyone else and that gives them the latitude to speak to others how every they feel. Because it's totally justified in their eyes. This guy's a "n00b, fag, spaz," can't play for sh@t and deserves to hear it. While they might have a point the person in question might be less skilled, but it's still just a game and it's IMHO better to be a team builder then and n00b griefer. But others, a lot of others don't seem to see it that way.
    In fact it's why I choose to avoid multi-player unless invited, be it friends or strangers. I find the fact that someone asked makes a big difference then if it's just a random match up.
    Another reason I feel this way is because I suffer from a major muscle condition which makes my fine motor control erratic at times. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy games I just have a tendency to be a more tactical player then a twitch player. I can be pretty good at times, but I often get lambasted because of my play style. And what I find really funny, it doesn't matter if it's effective or not, just that it's not the way they do it.
    So yeah. I think hubris is a major contributing factor behind toxicity in games. Problem is people who are prone to it aren't really going to listen to anything or anyone telling them they're a problem player. Because they already know everything and that fact means they can't be the problem. It's sad but it's not going to change anytime soon.

  • RevCosmosisRevCosmosis Registered User new member
    I did some research for a school paper about the effects of violence in video games on aggression and violent behavior etc. and found some interesting info that isn't talked about much. Different topic, but I think it could still apply.

    Basically, what I found is that how much media affects us is proportional to our "media literacy" level - the ability to interpret and apply information (Who is telling us this? What isn't being said?). While tests are still ongoing, it is predicted that teaching media literacy classes at a young age will help to lessen some of the aggressive behaviors that you see today. Sure, kids will still get mad at games, but by teaching them to think rationally, we could see an improvement in behavior in all aspects of our culture, including multiplayer.

  • RevCosmosisRevCosmosis Registered User new member
    I did some research for a school paper about the effects of violence in video games on aggression and violent behavior etc. and found some interesting info that isn't talked about much. Different topic, but I think it could still apply.

    Basically, what I found is that how much media affects us is proportional to our "media literacy" level - the ability to interpret and apply information (Who is telling us this? What isn't being said?). While tests are still ongoing, it is predicted that teaching media literacy classes at a young age will help to lessen some of the aggressive behaviors that you see today. Sure, kids will still get mad at games, but by teaching them to think rationally, we could see an improvement in behavior in all aspects of our culture, including multiplayer.

  • Titanium DragonTitanium Dragon Registered User regular
    Sorry, but you're wrong about trash talking. If your goal is to play to win, then yeah, trash talking is legitimate. And if you get riled up by trash talking, then you should really take a step back and ask yourself: why the heck do I care?

    I mean really, half the problem is that people care TOO MUCH. If someone says something after they snipe you for the third time in a row, if you get angry and rush back in three more times, it just means you suck. If you just remember that it is a game, then trash talking doesn't BOTHER you.

    Is it nice? Not particularly. But it isn't "toxic". Mostly it just means that the people you're playing with aren't very mature, because if players aren't affected by it, there tends to be much less trash talking. Trash talking is only a useful strategy against a narrow portion of players.

    Saying that the best players don't do it is false. There ARE best players who DO do it; Magic: The Gathering has had several experts in psychological warfare, and there are various fighting game players who have done it and been at or near the top. Mohammad Ali trash talked as well and probably won one of his greatest matchups ever due to his trash talking. The reason that a lot of top players don't trash talk is:

    A) Most top players are too good to be affected by it.
    B) Most top players end up spending a lot of time together, so have little desire to do it to screw things up for themselves down the line.

    But you see in places where this isn't true (football, boxing) that this happens more. Top players who play together often are less prone to it, because they spend too much time together to really get into it often.

    I will note that with team games, the actual cause of a lot of this is hopelessness. The reason that MOBAs are absolutely AWFUL about this is a game design issue; there is a long period of time when you are losing a match, but THEORETICALLY could come back, but have very little to no chance of winning, and every mistake grinds the team that much more into the ground. THIS is why MOBAs are awful - if you have no possibility of comeback, if the game is effectively over without ACTUALLY being over, people are miserable.

  • FredownsyouFredownsyou Registered User new member
    edited May 2013
    Sorry Titanium, but that is a somewhat mistaken and narrow view of the issue. Logically it is sound, but the scope is far too narrow. In a perfect world if everyone had iron skin and treated things like a joke then no one would care what people say to them. Unfortunately, we don't live in that perfect world. The place we live is dark, dirty, and full of mean and stupid things. There are, and will be, people who are hurt when hurtful words are spoken. I would rather respect them as fellow gamers than wave them off with an off handed "Get over it".

    Also, you seem to get posturing and trash talking somewhat mistaken along the lines. You also miss where card games are pretty tightly woven with bluffing and psychological tricks so not similar to trash talking at all (forget Magic and think WAY back to poker or old maid). You also miss where there is a line that people in those games rarely cross if they want to stay respectable and not outright banned from those games. They are, after all, celebrities who need to maintain a certain level of image in order to make money. No one likes someone who screams out racial or homophobic slurs at the drop of a hat.

    MOBA is where this comes out a lot, but actually any team orientated and focused game will have this problem. When you can't 'lone wolf' and be fine the outcome of the match is not determined simply by your individual merit, but your ability to adapt and work with a team. Some people recognize this and so they actively team up with only people they are familiar with. This, of course, makes things easier because as they are familiar with their teammates their teamwork is easier to put together. Though I actually find purely random groups a better testament to individual skill. It improves your ability to observe and adapt to other players and improves your abilities as a whole. Yes, having a drawn out losing match is a struggle, but it makes those infrequent comebacks all the more sweeter. Your worth as a gamer and a team player are tested in those times and if you're just going to give up when things aren't going your way then you're probably one of those 'flailing' players EC mentions when they start pointing blame.

    When the outcome of the effort you put in is determined by the actions of others then blame will always spring from the people with the weaker team work. Anyone who has worked on a collaborative project knows that blame solves nothing and you might as well work harder if you want to succeed.

    Fredownsyou on
  • MerlynnMerlynn Registered User regular
    @coyote_blue: Well,it's like this. Micheal Jordan is an exceptional basketball player. Should he have to wear special gear to handicap himself so it's "more fair" to the other players? Would it be fair if only some of the baskets he made counted? Companies want to promote "eSports" but they have to get over this nerf happy bullshit and let exceptional players excel. Otherwise,it's just a bunch of idiots slapping each other in the balls for no reason. And that doesn't make for good TV when the winner wins because the game decided to count his head shot and not his opponent's.

    Well,that's the great thing about UT1. First off,it had bot matches where you could play single player matches against bot opponents and learn how to play the game before you even went on-line. Secondly,every weapon was deadly. Some did better in some circumstances,but if you wanted to stick with your favorite,you were rarely left out in the cold. So pick your favorite weapon and kill your way. Most modern games,only a few weapons are really good and the rest just suck balls so if you don't like the "good" weapons,you're SOL. UT1,you can murder people with the default pistol if you bother to work with it a bit.

    But getting whupped by a stranger is just something that's going to happen in video games. And by nerfing the weapons/classes/items/etc,you make the game that much harder to learn. It's that much harder to be an asset to your team. So,in the end,yeah,UT1 was easier to learn cause there was no "wrong" way to play it. And each match is a learning experience. So while you might suck at first,you won't always suck.

    Remake UT1 with better graphics and such. There's gold in that game that's not even been touched. There's tons of old games where you can learn all kinds of tricks and ideas. All just sitting there,waiting to be rediscovered and used. And,sure,I've potty trained plenty of noobs. It's mostly simple concepts. Learn the map. Know what you can and can't do. Know when to sacrifice yourself and when to retreat and regroup. Basic stalking. That kind of stuff. Once they have a solid understanding of the basics,most players can do a reasonable job of holding their own.

  • GodEmperorLetoIIGodEmperorLetoII Registered User regular
    CaptainSparklez used to have the best name ever for his youtube name, pity he didn't keep it, but it was:

    "ProsDontTalkShit" and it's a name people should take to heart.

    And man, I think Riot has given so many statistics showing how toxic players often lose more often than non-toxic. People should also take that to heart.

  • pandacraftpandacraft Registered User new member
    "really good player's don't trashtalk"

    Yeah... you should probably stick to topics you actually know things about rather than use your show as a platform for uneducated opinions.

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