It makes you wonder how much differently Cersei (really all three kids, but mostly Cersei) would have turned out had her mother not died.
I don't think she'd have turned out terribly nice. Tyrion turned out nice with the same upbringing, after all. Jaime might have turned out a lot better, since he has a good heart but no moral compass at all.
It makes you wonder how much differently Cersei (really all three kids, but mostly Cersei) would have turned out had her mother not died.
I don't think she'd have turned out terribly nice. Tyrion turned out nice with the same upbringing, after all. Jaime might have turned out a lot better, since he has a good heart but no moral compass at all.
She would have had a good female role model who might have helped her come to terms with her place in the world instead of taking her frustrations out on... well everybody on the continent.
edit: I mean Tywin obviously thought the world of his wife and that dude holds just about everyone in thinly-veiled contempt.
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
My read on Cersei is that she has a mean streak, and that it's largely independent of her contestably-tragic backstory. Even if she hadn't been humiliated and neglected by Robert, or passed over by her father, she probably wouldn't have been particularly nice either. Rather, it's just that her sad situation took all the negative character traits she might have already had and then amplified them. It stoked her meanness and paranoia rather than her compassion, and gave her just enough petty power that she could use it to bully people while still leaving her insecure and unable self-actualize in any meaningful way.
I think that's a good villain character. It's not like she's just a victim of circumstance, yet at the same time she's not just a monster either. I actually usually find myself rooting for her, but that's because I tend to be a sucker for the 'bitch' characters--including villains--in these sorts of dramas. In some ways I like characters like hers more than I like characters like Arya's, insofar as the tomboy with distinctly modern values actually just seems like a more stock and audience-wish-fulfillment character. In any case, I think Cersei's character has texture and depth.
Finally, I think it's pretty unfair to blame her for Joffrey. While it's true that the show's implied that she's been ineffectual at disciplining him, Joffrey was not just spoiled. When presented with prostitutes, he'd have more fun torturing them than screwing them--that's not someone who was 'raised wrong,' that's a psychopath. Cersei may bear indirect responsibility for that by way of her incestuous relationship with Jaime, but blaming her parenting in particular seems patently unfair. That's not the sort of thing that comes down to parenting. And in defense of her incest, the Targaryens did it all the time--aka, every king between Aegon and Robert, so although it was still clearly taboo among the other noble families and the society at large, it's not like it was exactly unheard of either.
Anyway, speaking of female characters: top lulz moment in the last episode was when Mace Tyrell tries to say hello to Olenna and Tywin and she tells him to shut up the grown ups are talking.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
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Cersie's "You took too long" response to Jaime solidified in my mind that she's just a horrible human being.
Anyway, speaking of female characters: top lulz moment in the last episode was when Mace Tyrell tries to say hello to Olenna and Tywin and she tells him to shut up the grown ups are talking.
Especially his, "Welp, OK!" expression after Olenna tells him to fuck off
Like this is not the first time he's been told to go take a hike
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
That comic reminds me how much I loved Brienne's incredibly plain, rough-spun dress-over-pants compared to everyone else's opulent outfits because it's not like any tailor in King's Landing stocked something in her size.
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That comic reminds me how much I loved Brienne's incredibly plain, rough-spun dress-over-pants compared to everyone else's opulent outfits because it's not like any tailor in King's Landing stocked something in her size.
It's a shame she and Cersei wouldn't get along, because Brienne might've preferred a dress with armor in it.
My read on Cersei is that she has a mean streak, and that it's largely independent of her contestably-tragic backstory. Even if she hadn't been humiliated and neglected by Robert, or passed over by her father, she probably wouldn't have been particularly nice either. Rather, it's just that her sad situation took all the negative character traits she might have already had and then amplified them. It stoked her meanness and paranoia rather than her compassion, and gave her just enough petty power that she could use it to bully people while still leaving her insecure and unable self-actualize in any meaningful way.
I think that's a good villain character. It's not like she's just a victim of circumstance, yet at the same time she's not just a monster either. I actually usually find myself rooting for her, but that's because I tend to be a sucker for the 'bitch' characters--including villains--in these sorts of dramas. In some ways I like characters like hers more than I like characters like Arya's, insofar as the tomboy with distinctly modern values actually just seems like a more stock and audience-wish-fulfillment character. In any case, I think Cersei's character has texture and depth.
Finally, I think it's pretty unfair to blame her for Joffrey. While it's true that the show's implied that she's been ineffectual at disciplining him, Joffrey was not just spoiled. When presented with prostitutes, he'd have more fun torturing them than screwing them--that's not someone who was 'raised wrong,' that's a psychopath. Cersei may bear indirect responsibility for that by way of her incestuous relationship with Jaime, but blaming her parenting in particular seems patently unfair. That's not the sort of thing that comes down to parenting. And in defense of her incest, the Targaryens did it all the time--aka, every king between Aegon and Robert, so although it was still clearly taboo among the other noble families and the society at large, it's not like it was exactly unheard of either.
Anyway, speaking of female characters: top lulz moment in the last episode was when Mace Tyrell tries to say hello to Olenna and Tywin and she tells him to shut up the grown ups are talking.
My read on Cersei is that she has a mean streak, and that it's largely independent of her contestably-tragic backstory. Even if she hadn't been humiliated and neglected by Robert, or passed over by her father, she probably wouldn't have been particularly nice either. Rather, it's just that her sad situation took all the negative character traits she might have already had and then amplified them. It stoked her meanness and paranoia rather than her compassion, and gave her just enough petty power that she could use it to bully people while still leaving her insecure and unable self-actualize in any meaningful way.
I think that's a good villain character. It's not like she's just a victim of circumstance, yet at the same time she's not just a monster either. I actually usually find myself rooting for her, but that's because I tend to be a sucker for the 'bitch' characters--including villains--in these sorts of dramas. In some ways I like characters like hers more than I like characters like Arya's, insofar as the tomboy with distinctly modern values actually just seems like a more stock and audience-wish-fulfillment character. In any case, I think Cersei's character has texture and depth.
Finally, I think it's pretty unfair to blame her for Joffrey. While it's true that the show's implied that she's been ineffectual at disciplining him, Joffrey was not just spoiled. When presented with prostitutes, he'd have more fun torturing them than screwing them--that's not someone who was 'raised wrong,' that's a psychopath. Cersei may bear indirect responsibility for that by way of her incestuous relationship with Jaime, but blaming her parenting in particular seems patently unfair. That's not the sort of thing that comes down to parenting. And in defense of her incest, the Targaryens did it all the time--aka, every king between Aegon and Robert, so although it was still clearly taboo among the other noble families and the society at large, it's not like it was exactly unheard of either.
Anyway, speaking of female characters: top lulz moment in the last episode was when Mace Tyrell tries to say hello to Olenna and Tywin and she tells him to shut up the grown ups are talking.
Poor Mace
He doesn't seem much like the ostensible local ruler of one of the seven kingdoms, does he?
thing is Cersei's pissed at Tyrion about that but Tyrion legitimately did not do that to fuck with her
He's right that she'll be safe and Dorne, because as they say, it's a land that doesn't value the murder and rape of women and children
KL is a pretty precarious place to be
That and Tyrion is actually interested in ruling well and conducting diplomacy. And child hostages are a pretty standard way to smooth over generational disputes with other major powers. Tyrion is probably the only Lannister to actually accomplish anything toward securing a better relationship with Dorne through that move.
Which brings us back to the fact that Cersei doesn't want to rule, she's a character driven by a combination of bad motivation and legitimate motivation over how unfairly women are treated in her society.
Cersei has a rather personal distaste for the whole 'betrothal as a political bargaining chip' thing, so she was never going to be rational about it whenever it came into play for Myrcella (and it was only a matter of time). She's the kind of mom who will never be OK with her kids leaving the nest. They need to be under her guidance at all times.
It's just it would be an incredibly sloppy way for him to go about it. Which I'm sure the more intelligent characters will be aware of (see: not Cersei). Even if some decide to ignore it (I'm thinking Tywin).
edit: This a sidenote but for some reason Tyrion is one of the people I could not see killing someone in cold blood. There are very few other characters I see falling into that category (Davos and Eddard come to mind). I'm not sure why I feel that way considering he is rather Machiavellian (though to usually good ends) and he came up with the WildFire plan (which I guess you could say is ruthless, but it was war).
I agree, there's no real evidence Tyrion had anything to do with it
but let's look at the circumstantial evidence:
- Tyrion just bought a house in Pentos
- Tyrion just chartered a ship (that left earlier but still they might not know that, but the transfer of funds to buy the ship would be available)
- "your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth and you will know the debt is paid"
- Him and Sansa were trying to leave 2 minutes before the king started retching, enough time to get a head start and get down to the docks
Now I mean, obviously we know that Tyrion was trying to leave because he was being humiliated, the ship and house were for shae, and if he wanted to kill Joffrey it would have been through a dozen proxies and he would have a thousand alibis
Cersei has a rather personal distaste for the whole 'betrothal as a political bargaining chip' thing, so she was never going to be rational about it whenever it came into play for Myrcella (and it was only a matter of time). She's the kind of mom who will never be OK with her kids leaving the nest. They need to be under her guidance at all times.
Something, something "Cersei being all about family "
it's a land that doesn't value the murder and rape of women and children
the rest of Westeros does? I just read it as a fuck you to Tywin.
Well I mean, yea, it was a dig at Tywin and the Mountain's actions during the sacking
But the rest of Westeros seems to have a pretty severe case of women and children being raped and murdered, actually, it seemed fairly probable that was a likely outcome for all of the Lannisters including Myrcelle when he made the deal and sent her off
edit: it seems clear Stannis probably would have introduced the incest kids to the fires of the lord of light had he won
It's just it would be an incredibly sloppy way for him to go about it. Which I'm sure the more intelligent characters will be aware of (see: not Cersei). Even if some decide to ignore it (I'm thinking Tywin).
edit: This a sidenote but for some reason Tyrion is one of the people I could not see killing someone in cold blood. There are very few other characters I see falling into that category (Davos and Eddard come to mind). I'm not sure why I feel that way considering he is rather Machiavellian (though to usually good ends) and he came up with the WildFire plan (which I guess you could say is ruthless, but it was war).
I agree, there's no real evidence Tyrion had anything to do with it
but let's look at the circumstantial evidence:
- Tyrion just bought a house in Pentos
- Tyrion just chartered a ship (that left earlier but still they might not know that, but the transfer of funds to buy the ship would be available)
- "your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth and you will know the debt is paid"
- Him and Sansa were trying to leave 2 minutes before the king started retching, enough time to get a head start and get down to the docks
Now I mean, obviously we know that Tyrion was trying to leave because he was being humiliated, the ship and house were for shae, and if he wanted to kill Joffrey it would have been through a dozen proxies and he would have a thousand alibis
But the circumstantial evidence is there
There was also something of a very thinly veiled threat toward Joffrey at a small council meeting last season. Something along the lines of "oh well you'd better be careful talking to me if I'm a monster. Just now kings are dropping like flies."
Anyway, speaking of female characters: top lulz moment in the last episode was when Mace Tyrell tries to say hello to Olenna and Tywin and she tells him to shut up the grown ups are talking.
Especially his, "Welp, OK!" expression after Olenna tells him to fuck off
Like this is not the first time he's been told to go take a hike
He is the Samwell Tarly that wasn't abandoned
(granted I get the strong feeling Samwell is smarter. Based on what Oleena said about Mace in the past)
It's just it would be an incredibly sloppy way for him to go about it. Which I'm sure the more intelligent characters will be aware of (see: not Cersei). Even if some decide to ignore it (I'm thinking Tywin).
edit: This a sidenote but for some reason Tyrion is one of the people I could not see killing someone in cold blood. There are very few other characters I see falling into that category (Davos and Eddard come to mind). I'm not sure why I feel that way considering he is rather Machiavellian (though to usually good ends) and he came up with the WildFire plan (which I guess you could say is ruthless, but it was war).
I agree, there's no real evidence Tyrion had anything to do with it
but let's look at the circumstantial evidence:
- Tyrion just bought a house in Pentos
- Tyrion just chartered a ship (that left earlier but still they might not know that, but the transfer of funds to buy the ship would be available)
- "your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth and you will know the debt is paid"
- Him and Sansa were trying to leave 2 minutes before the king started retching, enough time to get a head start and get down to the docks
Now I mean, obviously we know that Tyrion was trying to leave because he was being humiliated, the ship and house were for shae, and if he wanted to kill Joffrey it would have been through a dozen proxies and he would have a thousand alibis
But the circumstantial evidence is there
I first thought that Tyrion had a good chance of not having the accusation stick. I mean, come on, just because he was holding the cup that Joffrey forced him to hold? Lame.
But I hadn't thought about any of the stuff you posted above and now I am worried for him. I don't want Tyrion to die...
Is she NOT a centaur in the show? Man, I have really misinterpreted some scenes....
just another way HBO is really letting down their core book-reading demographic
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A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
Is she NOT a centaur in the show? Man, I have really misinterpreted some scenes....
Is it weird that I'm imagining how different the "how great it is to hunt" /crossbow phallus scene would be if Margery was a centaur? I'm thinking yes.
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
I just realized we've never had a scene between Olenna and Cercei. I really want to watch that scene.
Oleena is one of the few characters smart enough to realize there are some people even she can't deal with.
There's no one that Olenna can't deal with (except Tywin, but she still faired better than most). She just doesn't have the time to deal with Cercei's bullshit, and unlike Tywin, she doesn't have to put up with her just because she's a fellow Lannister.
I just realized we've never had a scene between Olenna and Cercei. I really want to watch that scene.
Oleena is one of the few characters smart enough to realize there are some people even she can't deal with.
There's no one that Olenna can't deal with (except Tywin, but she still faired better than most). She just doesn't have the time to deal with Cercei's bullshit, and unlike Tywin, she doesn't have to put up with her just because she's a fellow Lannister.
Actually didn't Oleena talk to Cersei before Margery had Joffrey go out to greet his "loving" fanbase . Or am I remembering incorrectly ? I thought they were talking to each other and it wasn't going anywhere and then Cersei saw Joffrey stepping outside and was about to go "NOO" .
That comic reminds me how much I loved Brienne's incredibly plain, rough-spun dress-over-pants compared to everyone else's opulent outfits because it's not like any tailor in King's Landing stocked something in her size.
Also, she's kind of poor, and the simple clothes, barely a step above what peasants wear, is a visual indicator of that. She can't afford tailors like the royals do (well, maybe she could, but armour is probably expensive itself and that's kind of more important to her). It's another thing that marks her as an outsider.
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That comic reminds me how much I loved Brienne's incredibly plain, rough-spun dress-over-pants compared to everyone else's opulent outfits because it's not like any tailor in King's Landing stocked something in her size.
Also, she's kind of poor, and the simple clothes, barely a step above what peasants wear, is a visual indicator of that. She can't afford tailors like the royals do (well, maybe she could, but armour is probably expensive itself and that's kind of more important to her). It's another thing that marks her as an outsider.
I just watched the Red Wedding with my wife last night. Thought I would enjoy the Schadenfreude, but it was all too sad.
Anyway, point is, at his own wedding Tyrion threatens to geld Joffrey. It was a long time ago in RL, but not so much in show-time. I'm sure there have been many other causal threats that he's made just to keep Joffrey in line.
I figure I could take a bear.
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FakefauxCóiste BodharDriving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered Userregular
I just realized we've never had a scene between Olenna and Cercei. I really want to watch that scene.
Oleena is one of the few characters smart enough to realize there are some people even she can't deal with.
There's no one that Olenna can't deal with (except Tywin, but she still faired better than most). She just doesn't have the time to deal with Cercei's bullshit, and unlike Tywin, she doesn't have to put up with her just because she's a fellow Lannister.
Actually didn't Oleena talk to Cersei before Margery had Joffrey go out to greet his "loving" fanbase . Or am I remembering incorrectly ? I thought they were talking to each other and it wasn't going anywhere and then Cersei saw Joffrey stepping outside and was about to go "NOO" .
Cersie's "You took too long" response to Jaime solidified in my mind that she's just a horrible human being.
I mean come on.
It was clearly unfair of her, but also understandable insofar as it ties very directly into the particular chip on her shoulder. Jaime left to go do boy-hero stuff while she was trapped at home. First, she was stuck in the siege awaiting death with the septons and ladies-in-waiting while they stitched hoops and prayed and did other shit she finds boring and stupid. Then, after the siege was lifted, she got married off--again!--for political reasons because dad said she had to. Blaming Jaime for getting captured may not make a lot of sense, but the stuff that happened to her while he was off being the boy and fighting wars is exactly the stuff she resents so much.
it's a land that doesn't value the murder and rape of women and children
the rest of Westeros does? I just read it as a fuck you to Tywin.
Well, you could argue against that. I mean, just a single episode ago Polliver was bragging to Arya and Sandor Clegane about how having the King's Banner (Joffrey and the Lannisters) entitles you to rape, murder, and plundering the country side.
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I don't think she'd have turned out terribly nice. Tyrion turned out nice with the same upbringing, after all. Jaime might have turned out a lot better, since he has a good heart but no moral compass at all.
She would have had a good female role model who might have helped her come to terms with her place in the world instead of taking her frustrations out on... well everybody on the continent.
edit: I mean Tywin obviously thought the world of his wife and that dude holds just about everyone in thinly-veiled contempt.
I think that's a good villain character. It's not like she's just a victim of circumstance, yet at the same time she's not just a monster either. I actually usually find myself rooting for her, but that's because I tend to be a sucker for the 'bitch' characters--including villains--in these sorts of dramas. In some ways I like characters like hers more than I like characters like Arya's, insofar as the tomboy with distinctly modern values actually just seems like a more stock and audience-wish-fulfillment character. In any case, I think Cersei's character has texture and depth.
Finally, I think it's pretty unfair to blame her for Joffrey. While it's true that the show's implied that she's been ineffectual at disciplining him, Joffrey was not just spoiled. When presented with prostitutes, he'd have more fun torturing them than screwing them--that's not someone who was 'raised wrong,' that's a psychopath. Cersei may bear indirect responsibility for that by way of her incestuous relationship with Jaime, but blaming her parenting in particular seems patently unfair. That's not the sort of thing that comes down to parenting. And in defense of her incest, the Targaryens did it all the time--aka, every king between Aegon and Robert, so although it was still clearly taboo among the other noble families and the society at large, it's not like it was exactly unheard of either.
Anyway, speaking of female characters: top lulz moment in the last episode was when Mace Tyrell tries to say hello to Olenna and Tywin and she tells him to shut up the grown ups are talking.
I mean come on.
Especially his, "Welp, OK!" expression after Olenna tells him to fuck off
Like this is not the first time he's been told to go take a hike
Queen Margaery - breaker of awkward moments.
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It's a shame she and Cersei wouldn't get along, because Brienne might've preferred a dress with armor in it.
Poor Mace
Pissed, not poised. Stupid phone. That word is like the opposite of what I meant. Making my post all sarcastic.
He doesn't seem much like the ostensible local ruler of one of the seven kingdoms, does he?
He's right that she'll be safe and Dorne, because as they say, it's a land that doesn't value the murder and rape of women and children
KL is a pretty precarious place to be
That and Tyrion is actually interested in ruling well and conducting diplomacy. And child hostages are a pretty standard way to smooth over generational disputes with other major powers. Tyrion is probably the only Lannister to actually accomplish anything toward securing a better relationship with Dorne through that move.
Which brings us back to the fact that Cersei doesn't want to rule, she's a character driven by a combination of bad motivation and legitimate motivation over how unfairly women are treated in her society.
the rest of Westeros does? I just read it as a fuck you to Tywin.
I agree, there's no real evidence Tyrion had anything to do with it
but let's look at the circumstantial evidence:
- Tyrion just bought a house in Pentos
- Tyrion just chartered a ship (that left earlier but still they might not know that, but the transfer of funds to buy the ship would be available)
- "your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth and you will know the debt is paid"
- Him and Sansa were trying to leave 2 minutes before the king started retching, enough time to get a head start and get down to the docks
Now I mean, obviously we know that Tyrion was trying to leave because he was being humiliated, the ship and house were for shae, and if he wanted to kill Joffrey it would have been through a dozen proxies and he would have a thousand alibis
But the circumstantial evidence is there
Something, something "Cersei being all about family "
Well I mean, yea, it was a dig at Tywin and the Mountain's actions during the sacking
But the rest of Westeros seems to have a pretty severe case of women and children being raped and murdered, actually, it seemed fairly probable that was a likely outcome for all of the Lannisters including Myrcelle when he made the deal and sent her off
edit: it seems clear Stannis probably would have introduced the incest kids to the fires of the lord of light had he won
There was also something of a very thinly veiled threat toward Joffrey at a small council meeting last season. Something along the lines of "oh well you'd better be careful talking to me if I'm a monster. Just now kings are dropping like flies."
He is the Samwell Tarly that wasn't abandoned
(granted I get the strong feeling Samwell is smarter. Based on what Oleena said about Mace in the past)
Is she NOT a centaur in the show? Man, I have really misinterpreted some scenes....
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I first thought that Tyrion had a good chance of not having the accusation stick. I mean, come on, just because he was holding the cup that Joffrey forced him to hold? Lame.
But I hadn't thought about any of the stuff you posted above and now I am worried for him. I don't want Tyrion to die...
just another way HBO is really letting down their core book-reading demographic
She really strikes me more of a Satyress (apparently this is what Female Satyrs are called!) or a pixie.
Oleena is one of the few characters smart enough to realize there are some people even she can't deal with.
Is it weird that I'm imagining how different the "how great it is to hunt" /crossbow phallus scene would be if Margery was a centaur? I'm thinking yes.
There's no one that Olenna can't deal with (except Tywin, but she still faired better than most). She just doesn't have the time to deal with Cercei's bullshit, and unlike Tywin, she doesn't have to put up with her just because she's a fellow Lannister.
Actually didn't Oleena talk to Cersei before Margery had Joffrey go out to greet his "loving" fanbase . Or am I remembering incorrectly ? I thought they were talking to each other and it wasn't going anywhere and then Cersei saw Joffrey stepping outside and was about to go "NOO" .
And then roaring/adoring crowd
Also, she's kind of poor, and the simple clothes, barely a step above what peasants wear, is a visual indicator of that. She can't afford tailors like the royals do (well, maybe she could, but armour is probably expensive itself and that's kind of more important to her). It's another thing that marks her as an outsider.
But what about all those sapphires?
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Anyway, point is, at his own wedding Tyrion threatens to geld Joffrey. It was a long time ago in RL, but not so much in show-time. I'm sure there have been many other causal threats that he's made just to keep Joffrey in line.
You are correct.
It was clearly unfair of her, but also understandable insofar as it ties very directly into the particular chip on her shoulder. Jaime left to go do boy-hero stuff while she was trapped at home. First, she was stuck in the siege awaiting death with the septons and ladies-in-waiting while they stitched hoops and prayed and did other shit she finds boring and stupid. Then, after the siege was lifted, she got married off--again!--for political reasons because dad said she had to. Blaming Jaime for getting captured may not make a lot of sense, but the stuff that happened to her while he was off being the boy and fighting wars is exactly the stuff she resents so much.
Well, you could argue against that. I mean, just a single episode ago Polliver was bragging to Arya and Sandor Clegane about how having the King's Banner (Joffrey and the Lannisters) entitles you to rape, murder, and plundering the country side.