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Middle East: Israel invades Gaza

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Posts

  • RchanenRchanen Registered User regular
    Here is an interesting article. Its an editorial from Al-Jazeera in which the author opines that the long term goal of Hamas is to damage Israel's world standing.

    But the last sentence is kind of chilling.
    Instead of cheering on the new agreement between Hamas and the Palestine Authority, with its implicit acceptance by Hamas of a two-state solution, Israel will achieve its one-state solution with a vengeance. Israel may annihilate Hamas as an organization. What they will then get of course is not a group of acquiescent Palestinians but the advocates of an Islamic caliphate, a group that does not yet have a real presence in Palestine.


    And my thought goes "ISIS." Awww crap. Those guys are monsters. Walking, talking exigent circumstances.

  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Where I work a coworker went to Israel to visit.

    She had this story to tell.

    They (she and her friend) were traveling on the train line and decided to travel as far as it can go. Next to them on the train was an Israeli woman and her American friend, chatting away. My coworker noticed that the train line cuts straight through Palestine territory so she asked, all innocent, purely wanting to know, how the Palestinians were supposed to cross the train line.

    The Israeli women said "Oh they'll build tunnels."

    My coworker was amazed at this and ask, again, in genuine disbelief, how they could expect them to dig tunnels?

    Without batting an eye the Israeli women said "Oh you build tunnels for animals."

    Anecdotal of course. But eye opening.

    Morninglord on
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Rchanen wrote: »
    Here is an interesting article. Its an editorial from Al-Jazeera in which the author opines that the long term goal of Hamas is to damage Israel's world standing.

    But the last sentence is kind of chilling.
    Instead of cheering on the new agreement between Hamas and the Palestine Authority, with its implicit acceptance by Hamas of a two-state solution, Israel will achieve its one-state solution with a vengeance. Israel may annihilate Hamas as an organization. What they will then get of course is not a group of acquiescent Palestinians but the advocates of an Islamic caliphate, a group that does not yet have a real presence in Palestine.


    And my thought goes "ISIS." Awww crap. Those guys are monsters. Walking, talking exigent circumstances.

    Yep.

    They're a pretty big reason for Israel to stop being so comfortable with antagonizing other groups. If ISIS manages to dig in, it WILL eventually target Israel in some manner.

  • GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    darklite_x wrote: »
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    darklite_x wrote: »
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    There may be a lot of tragedy coming from these actions, but I refuse to believe that an entire country, especially one with a history like Israel, could have such callous disregard for human life that they'd willingly kill civilians and just say "Whatevs bro, sux 2 suk."
    darklite_x wrote: »
    That's why I personally find it hard to condemn Israel for their current actions. Yeah, it sucks that civilians are dying, but if it comes down to you or me, I'm picking me every time, and that's essentially how I view Israel's current actions.

    Seems like you've come around.

    Ok well I get what you're saying, and I feel like I've got egg on my face now, but that doesn't change my stance. I guess what I wanted to get across was that it seems a lot of the arguments against Israel are boiling down to "These guys are assholes that don't care about civilian casualties" when really I think the situation is more that they do care, but they're choosing themselves over Hamas/Palestinians/civilians/whatever, and I honestly can't blame them for that. Like I said before, I think we've all made up our minds on the issue, and I don't think that most of you are anti-semitic or anti-Israel, but I simply don't agree with you that Israel has no moral ground to stand on here. That's what led to my original 'naive' comment. It's easy for us to judge Israel's actions as immoral or reprehensible, but when I attempt to put myself in the shoes of an Israeli citizen, I don't feel that it's my place to condemn them.

    What about when you put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian?

    I can also put myself in people's shoes, and try to do so whenever I can. Its not so great for "picking sides", since I can usually understand why both sides fight. I tend to root for the little guy, but whatever.

    More importantly though, are things you could conceivable have an influence on. If you're an American citizen, how do you feel about the US supporting Israel to such a large degree, and largely allowing Israel to carry out military actions like this. Its one thing to understand where they're coming from, another to support them (even if you yourself obviously have no influence on the issue).

    This is where you've got me. I try to put myself in their shoes, but I really can't get past the fact that they've elected essentially a terrorist organization as their political leadership/representation, who's stated goals include the elimination of the Jewish state. In my mind, all I can see is this is a people who willingly ELECTED an organization who's stated goals essentially include genocide. I feel for the civilians caught up in this mess because I know they aren't all Hamas supporters, but in my mind it's one of those situations that call to mind the phrase "The only thing needed for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." In this case, it's hard for me to distinguish who's merely caught in the crossfire, and who wants to kill an entire race of people either personally or through their support of an organization that does.

    So is death by slow starvation better than extremely low risk of death by rocket? Cause Israel is kind of slowly starving Gaza out of spite. That is the most generous interpretation of their actions as well. Whether fast or slow, genocide is genocide. Israel seems to be playing it for a slow game either because they don't understand what they are doing, or simply don't care.

  • RchanenRchanen Registered User regular
    Oh and @Tycho make sure that you include Turkey in the OP.

  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Registered User regular
    darklite_x wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    darklite_x wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    darklite_x wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Israel elected its leaders, too. And look what they've been doing.

    Defending themselves?

    From school children?

    That terrorists are using as human shields purposefully to sway the opinions of people like yourself?

    Israel's politicians are doing the same. What do you think the settlements are? What do you think the cities are doing?

    Places where people are trying to live, without wiping out the people next to them. No point in arguing this though, both our minds are made up.

    More like places where people are trying to live, on land that is supposed to be Palestinian, while trying to take more Palestinian land.

    You see the problem?

  • MillMill Registered User regular
    Yeah, another fallacy that I hate seeing, that comes up with this conflict, is that understanding denotes support of one side and no support for another. Understanding why people do what they do, doesn't result in people arriving at a specific conclusion about any conflict. Opinion of those who understand a situation can cut many ways. It can be open support of one side, condemnation of one side, sympathy for both sides, condemnation of both sides, sitting on the fence or far more nuanced views.

    This is the other fallacy of the conflict, that it is solely Israelis vs Palestinians. There are multiple faction within both the Israelis and the Palestinians, with both sides having their assholes and both sides have non-assholes getting fucked by the assholes (with probably the civilian Palestinians getting fucked by the assholes of both sides).

    I hold Israel to a higher standard because really they are the ones with the all the power and the best position to get the peace process moving. If they stopped the settlements, dismantle many (I would prefer all dismantled), ended the blockade of Gaza and reigned in the belligerent settlers that treat Palestinians like sub-humans. I think Israel would find that the extremists within the Palestinian camp would have a hard time gaining political support. Granted I suspect the shitty rightwing elements of Israel wouldn't want to go for this because that would greatly weaken their power. I suspect some of those fuckers know damn well that they sit in office because they back shit that fuels the conflict and makes it easier to sell their shit to less radical Israelis, since the conflict creates an environment of fear, that makes people less rational.

    This also why I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the end objective for some of these groups is to seize all the land. People make the mistake that they'll view the international backlash as too high a cost. My observation of the far right within the states and abroad, is that far right thinking has some fairly consistent views in a few areas. One of those areas is having a fucked up perspective of risk vs reward, to any far rightie, the costs are always justified if you destroy the "other" and take their shit.

  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    darklite_x wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    darklite_x wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    darklite_x wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Israel elected its leaders, too. And look what they've been doing.

    Defending themselves?

    From school children?

    That terrorists are using as human shields purposefully to sway the opinions of people like yourself?

    Israel's politicians are doing the same. What do you think the settlements are? What do you think the cities are doing?

    Places where people are trying to live, without wiping out the people next to them. No point in arguing this though, both our minds are made up.

    You seriously need to stop doing this. If you want to be a part of the discussion just do that, and anyone who steps out of line gets an infraction. It's very rude to take a part in an argument while declaring the whole exercise pointless, and basically accuse others of arguing in bad faith. It's a dick move.

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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    Can someone post that article by the Israeli MK, who suggested giving one final warning followed by an all out assault on Gaza, civilians be damned? And then saying Gaza would be populated by Jews which would help ease housing problems in Israel?

    My Outline for a Solution in Gaza
    Gaza is part of our Land and we will remain there forever. Liberation of parts of our land forever is the only thing that justifies endangering our soldiers in battle to capture land. Subsequent to the elimination of terror from Gaza, it will become part of sovereign Israel and will be populated by Jews. This will also serve to ease the housing crisis in Israel. The coastal train line will be extended, as soon as possible, to reach the entire length of Gaza.

    According to polls, most of the Arabs in Gaza wish to leave. Those who were not involved in anti-Israel activity will be offered a generous international emigration package. Those who choose to remain will receive permanent resident status. After a number of years of living in Israel and becoming accustomed to it, contingent on appropriate legislation in the Knesset and the authorization of the Minister of Interior, those who personally accept upon themselves Israel’s rule, substance and way of life of the Jewish State in its Land, will be offered Israeli citizenship.

    Moshe Feiglin, Deputy Speaker of the Knesset.

    smCQ5WE.jpg
  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] As elusive as doubt Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    edit: new op is up

    http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/191837/the-middle-east-v5-a-land-of-misery-and-betrayal#latest

    edit again: Because I care, I'll link you to the OP instead of a random map.

    [Tycho?] on
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  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    For the anti Israel tangent.
    I am quite happy (well, actually, somewhat depressed) to call myself anti Israel at this point.
    And while i do not actually outright call for its destruction, i would not be opposed to it either.

  • SpaffySpaffy Fuck the Zero Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    For the anti Israel tangent.
    I am quite happy (well, actually, somewhat depressed) to call myself anti Israel at this point.
    And while i do not actually outright call for its destruction, i would not be opposed to it either.

    It was quite clear from the start that the statement that this thread is mostly 'anti Israel' meant that the majority of posts in it are in condemnation of Israel's actions in the current conflict, as opposed to Hamas. Not "I don't want Israel to exist". Which I don't think anyone who can read would argue with. The 3 pages of discussion that followed were semantic pedantry.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    darklite_x wrote: »
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    darklite_x wrote: »
    Rchanen wrote: »
    What would your phrase be for "I support Israel's right to exist and to defend themselves, but their current actions towards the people of the Gaza strip and their long term policy of starvation and settlement is reprehensible and I think they should be placed under sanctions for doing so until they learn to act in a more moderate humane fashion?" What is the shorthand for that?

    Naive.

    Come now, you can make a better argument than a one-word dismissal.

    Not really. Let's be honest, we've all made up our minds. I mean sure, I was being simplistic, but I simply can't fathom the idea of Israel's long-term goal being to just eradicate an entire group of people for a little bit of land. On the other hand, half the people in this thread/the world seem to buy that idea. Maybe I'm the naive one in the end, but as pessimistic as I am, I'd rather believe that Israel is acting in a defensive manner. There may be a lot of tragedy coming from these actions, but I refuse to believe that an entire country, especially one with a history like Israel, could have such callous disregard for human life that they'd willingly kill civilians and just say "Whatevs bro, sux 2 suk."

    They have no long term goal. They just either don't care or aren't paying attention to the long-term consequences of their actions now.

    Which is something we see all the time. Hell, it's something we've seen before in almost exactly the same situation.

    Hell, it's something a dismaying number of us and/or our countries have done before.

This discussion has been closed.